Vigilant Walrus
Member
You can't hate on Inception though. I gets really close to Paprika. It's a good movie.
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Seems like Nolan got the better deal than Whedon on superhero movies
- Thread starter Messofanego
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Bobby Roberts
Banned
They tried with Wonder Woman about a decade back. Creative Differences reared their ugly heads.
Given how utterly unambitious and generic everything in A2 was it is not a big achievement. I rather failures like TDKR then generic attempts like A2.
Wasn't there an element of the execs getting jittery at a female-led action film, too? Attitudes are a lot different these days, but that was a very real problem back then.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
Damn Marvel for tying Whedon's artistic, savant-like hands. If it weren't for them we could have gotten a film as well-written and directed as that one Whedon film/script that everybody remembers.
Dude made a modern-day Shakespeare indie in black and white. Obviously the sky is the artistic limit when Marvel isn't involved.
Dude made a modern-day Shakespeare indie in black and white. Obviously the sky is the artistic limit when Marvel isn't involved.
Buffy is a great television show
Messypandas
Member
They should have let Nicolas Wending Refn do Wonder Woman since he wanted it. With Christina Hendricks as Diana!
Marvel has kinda proven that audiences don't give a shit about who directed a movie, it's all about which superheroes appear in the movie.
For example I'm not convinced that hiring the Russo brothers was a stroke of brilliance or anything. Marvel probably thought 'these guys are working on a niche TV sitcom, we can get em for dirt cheap and they'll obey us since this is their big break. And if they fuck up, who cares? It's Captain America, has a built-in audience that will see it regardless!' Winter Soldier turning out great was more of a happy accident.
It doesn't sound like any fun working on a Marvel movie. Imagine finishing the script for Civil War and then Marvel calling up the next day saying we gotta put Spider-Man in here now, go do rewrites. Stuff like that probably happens all the time in the MCU.
For example I'm not convinced that hiring the Russo brothers was a stroke of brilliance or anything. Marvel probably thought 'these guys are working on a niche TV sitcom, we can get em for dirt cheap and they'll obey us since this is their big break. And if they fuck up, who cares? It's Captain America, has a built-in audience that will see it regardless!' Winter Soldier turning out great was more of a happy accident.
It doesn't sound like any fun working on a Marvel movie. Imagine finishing the script for Civil War and then Marvel calling up the next day saying we gotta put Spider-Man in here now, go do rewrites. Stuff like that probably happens all the time in the MCU.
This makes me very very curious as to how that would have worked out. Even a bit moreso than had Darren Aronofsky stuck to Wolverine.
WB also has a new president compared to then as well. He's the one that has been pushing for WB to really use more of the DC properties and across different media. Things could be different if Whedon were to work with WB, if both wanted to of course.
Seriously, I'm fucking baffled by this thread and I love Whedon.
People are really just gonna run with a black and white narrative of Marvel being the bad guys here?
What about side stories in films that don't have much to do with the main plot. Often developing a character's backstory may serve no purpose to the story besides letting the audience in on a few details that let you in on who that person is.
What about JGL's character who figured out Bruce Wayne is Batman when he visited his orphanage and he later reveals his real name is Robin and discover's the Batcave? Couldn't that be seen as an underdeveloped character just put in there to set up a sequel if that was in the context of the MCU or rather DCCU?
It's all about perspective, if someone that doesn't get something in AoU that hasn't seen many Marvel movies, they assume it's a reference to the comics or other movies. If people who have seen some of the movies don't understand something it must be some sort of set up for a sequel. If it happens in other movies it may be a unresolved thread, a plot hole, or just taken for granted as world building.
Like if you see a fantasy film or a sci-fi film and people refer to events and locations that you don't know, it doesn't have to directly tie into the plot. It doesn't have to be set up for a sequel.
D
Deleted member 80556
Unconfirmed Member
Ouch, that must have hurt a lot. But as some has said, it was his self imposed criticism. Maybe with this he can try better stuff on his own terms, without having to worry about 5 movies ahead.
I've yet to see the movie, but I'm surprised to see articles like this one this fast.
Anyway, awesome thread Messo. You're awesome.
Rastafarian42
Member
As a big Marvel fan in general and enjoy most of their cinematic universe I must say this is the one thing I'm disappointed in regarding their universe. Loki and Winter Solider (in some regards) (honorable mentions to pierce & abomination) are only decent villains with Kingpin being the only great one among their universe it's a major problem. Ultron had moments
including his introduction and when he cut off Klaws arm that was great moment to show how dangerous and angry he could be
Whedon was lucky Marvel placed a lot of faith in him and handed him the keys to the kingdom in the first place considering his history of missing bombas.
And yeah you can tell what a huge mess Avengers 2 was to make by the end product. The thing really did need to have a longer run time.
And yeah you can tell what a huge mess Avengers 2 was to make by the end product. The thing really did need to have a longer run time.
Mister Wilhelm
Member
You have a good point, but I disagree.
TDKR was a complete failure on every front, especially when it came to being enjoyable.
A2 WAS ambitious. It was also incredibly enjoyable and did at least reach for something more, though not quite making it. The cuts were very evident. I think we'll have a very different movie on blu ray. Can't say that about TDKR, which was more pretentious than ambitious to me.
I wonder if cynics are already taking bets Yellowjacket will be forgotten going by impressions from the recent Ant-Man trailer.
PhoncipleBone
Banned
That is true.
He was being sarcastic.
I won't quote the whole thing, but that was a very good post. Thank you for that.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
This is most likely closest to the truth.
BadAss2961
Member
No. These blockbusters are driving him mad. He can't hack it anymore. Plus he's not very good at this, and he couldn't make it any clearer that he knows it. For admitting so, I give him credit.
ReturnOfTheRAT
Member
It's also pretty interesting that it finally took this movie for people to see through the Marvel bullshit. I appreciate that Joss isn't afraid of talking about it in interviews and concurrently been honest about his own failures.
Also I think Nolan might be the most blessed director in Hollywood in general right now.
He gets massive budgets to make his films that he always wanted to make about dream thieves and space sci fi epics, stuff you wouldn't normally expect to be huge money earners, but then they do earn massive money so he can keep making more and more.
He gets massive budgets to make his films that he always wanted to make about dream thieves and space sci fi epics, stuff you wouldn't normally expect to be huge money earners, but then they do earn massive money so he can keep making more and more.
Messypandas
Member
I would say its not even in question. Perlmutter wouldn't even foot the bill for complimentary crisps at the Iron Man 1 premiere.
Rastafarian42
Member
I'm sure there's some but we don't know until we see it.
You have absolutely no idea what you're talking about.
Was their low price tag probably an allure for Marvel? Yes. Did Feige and co. throw darts at a board of names and decide to hand over one of their biggest properties to whoever it randomly landed on? Fuck no. They made a pitch -- by their account, several pitches with storyboards -- about why their sensibilities fit, and had a track record of accomplished TV credit that covered both comedy and action.
And I'm quite sure "if they fuck up, who cares?" has never once been a part of the thought process. Marvel is frequently touted as a well-oiled machine that churns out one successful $200+ million dollar movie every six-ish months. You don't achieve that level of productivity and that level of success by not giving a fuck about who you're hiring or what kind of job they're doing. That kind of mindset very quickly backfires and throws a hell of a wrench into the well-oiled machine. There's nothing coincidental about it.
I read up about him today; miracle the dude hasn't made everything fall apart yet.
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
This is almost as good as Whedon snark. Almost.
The criticism of Black Widow in Avengers is really fucking unfortunate. What is on the page is largely what matters, but when criticizing someone personally you move into the territory where you should probably do at least a little research. if you had you would find out that Scarlett was pregnant and they had to rework the film. A billion dollar film he had to get done on a deadline. At least thats the nicest I can be toward this. If they are talking about the "child" scene there is nothing I can say as you missed the entire point of this scene. Hell I heard someone sitting in front of me in my showing exclaim out loud "What do you mean she's a monster!?!"
bob_arctor
Tough_Smooth
She was my favorite character in the entire movie, easy. People really are crazy sometimes.
He's Mr. Burns pretty much.
This is why I think Nolan got a "Better deal"
Warner has and continues to want to keep him happy
And he keeps making them bank
I think Nolan got lucky in his timing for being involved in the Batman movies when he joined.
Marvel didn't have their money making cinematic universe until Iron Man in 2008 (lol barely), and he was able to get Begins and TDK by then. Plus, I don't think WB realized how much bank they could make with their own heroes until The Avengers came out later, and at that time TDKR came out and Nolan was able to complete his story.
I'm sure if things were different, Nolan would never have been able to tell the Batman stories he did if he were to bend over to a studio like Marvel, or if WB was really intent on making things connect for their cinematic universe.
Anyways, great OP. I'm reading through the linked articles now.
Marvel didn't have their money making cinematic universe until Iron Man in 2008 (lol barely), and he was able to get Begins and TDK by then. Plus, I don't think WB realized how much bank they could make with their own heroes until The Avengers came out later, and at that time TDKR came out and Nolan was able to complete his story.
I'm sure if things were different, Nolan would never have been able to tell the Batman stories he did if he were to bend over to a studio like Marvel, or if WB was really intent on making things connect for their cinematic universe.
Anyways, great OP. I'm reading through the linked articles now.
I know it was sarcasm, hence my confusion.
Monocle
Member
Whedon did an outstanding job considering what he had to work with and the countless ways it all could have gone wrong, balancing his own very strong creative sensibility with the crushing demands of Marvel and fan expectations. Making two highly entertaining films with ensemble casts that simultaneously work as standalone adventures and parts of a vast interconnected series is a mind blowing achievement, one I honestly wasn't sure he'd be able to pull off. And yet his films both ended up near the top of the pile of quality Marvel movies.
Whedon was the right person to direct Avengers 1 and 2. He did good work.
Whedon was the right person to direct Avengers 1 and 2. He did good work.
I'm a card-carrying Nolan fanboy. His Batman trilogy clicks on all levels - gravitas, blockbuster action, character drama, cultural/social/political relevance, etc.
I respect the hell out of Whedon as well. Haven't seen AoU yet, but what Whedon did for the MCU cannot be understated.
Ultimately the distinction between each filmmaker's end result seems to come down to the big picture. Nolan more or less had creative control over his films and was able to create a standalone trilogy. Whedon was working in a larger sandbox and Marvel's demands for their bigger picture, so in some ways his films might not be able to stand out as much in the overall MCU timeline/universe.
People probably get tired of me posting this in related threads, but I just love Spielberg's comments on Nolan's Batman films (go to 4:30).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r69N56plrDE
I respect the hell out of Whedon as well. Haven't seen AoU yet, but what Whedon did for the MCU cannot be understated.
Ultimately the distinction between each filmmaker's end result seems to come down to the big picture. Nolan more or less had creative control over his films and was able to create a standalone trilogy. Whedon was working in a larger sandbox and Marvel's demands for their bigger picture, so in some ways his films might not be able to stand out as much in the overall MCU timeline/universe.
People probably get tired of me posting this in related threads, but I just love Spielberg's comments on Nolan's Batman films (go to 4:30).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=r69N56plrDE
Preach. Well, kinda, I liked A2 because there was a semblance of soul once in a while, Hawkguy saved the movie.
Talking about Perlmutter, is there really only ONE picture of him in the entire internet? For real?
You keep making these kinds of snarky comments like they're universally accepted when they're not. Repeating your opinion over and over again doesn't somehow make it widely accepted fact.
Discotheque
Banned
this thread more than most should allow for subjective opinions tho, no matter how repeated they are
Alcotholic
Banned
I view the MCU project as a collaborative effort. Obviously Joss isn't going to get his say in how the movie turns out. None of the Directors will have their final say, but I still see it as a unique and interesting idea.
Absolutely, but saying AoU was generic and unambitious is a pretty lazy criticism when the film's biggest shortcomings are a product of unchecked ambition creating an overstuffed film. You can't start a discussion by building on questionable statements like they're facts.
By all means, argue Whedon should never return to blockbusters because he has difficulty juggling such massive projects. At least that has some basis in reality and isn't just an excuse to parrot distaste for a movie.
Pretty much this, I can't believe some of the attitudes expressed in here.
SCULLIBUNDO
Banned
But to date he's had to do the 1 for 1 trade with the studio every time he's wanted to make a film for himself. Prestige so long as he returned for TDK. Inception so long as he returned for TDKR.
Insterstellar was a well-developed project long before he wanted to make it.
Cameron most blessed right now. Dude was given free reign to make an original sci-fi universe of his own creation and is given literally all the time he wants in the world to keep developing it.
No other director is going to be given 8 years by a studio waiting to cash in on the highest grossing film of all time.
Good interview by the way.
Also, I can't say enough how Whedon doing Avengers was as close to perfect as you can come to getting the right guy to pen and direct this assembly of heroes. It's gonna be something different alright when Infinity Wars comes out. But at the same time, I think he made the right choice. I can't see Whedon handling so many characters and set-up without sacrificing the smaller character moments. Age of Ultron somehow was able to get some in there in-between all the action (and I found myself still wishing for more scenes like the Farmhouse but for Ultron and the twins).
His movies generally finish early and come in under budget, then make a ton of money. That has a lot to do with him getting the projects he wants.
IndoAssassin
Banned
TDK ending was just as cliche as all other superhero movies I have watched.
I don't understand what it did different?
I don't understand what it did different?
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