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Sega Saturn Appreciation and Emulation Thread

S

Seik

Banned
I grew up a lot since I started this thread one year ago.

What I mean by this.

-As you can see in my OP, I was playing these in 16:9, a choice that I still don't understand today (No seriously, what the hell was I thinking..). 4:3 is the way to go, definitely.

-I was playing with an Xbox controller, which I fixed later by using a Saturn/USB adapter, that's the way to go as well.

-I wasn't playing with scanlines, which Papersleeves here pointed out, at first I wasn't really hot at the idea (I thought it was only making the overall picture darker) but after awhile it really grew on me. This is the shit.

But there's one thing out there that I'm still not getting right, I guess. Why aren't you guys playing on an emulator if you want a crystal clear, high fidelity picture quality on your monitors/HDTVs? Maybe it's because I got burnt with the whole SCART/RGB story I told in my OP, but there's no way, no way in hell I'd pay 300-500$ to get the same quality. Apart from playing on the original console, I can't see the plus. Hell, you can even add scanlines for an even better result with SSF! :/

I can understand that playing on the Saturn itself is something that feels the best for the purists out there, but if one is that much of a purist, wouldn't it be best to play on a good old CRT?

I know some of you may think: 'I don't have a CRT anymore so I try to deal with what I have.' or 'I want to use my Saturn because I paid for it'. I'm aware it's not anyone who have/can have their PC connected to their TV as well. What I want to know is the answer of those who CAN do it, but doesn't. Because I got completely disconnected from this point of view since this thread began.
 
K

KDash31987

Member
Is Saturn emulation even any decent nowadays? I've popped in some of my games into my PC to try it out of curiosity, but I couldn't get anything running decently at all. Not a big deal, though, I'd rather play on my Saturn that I've had since the mid '90s. I play on a CRT, too, so any loss of picture quality with HDTVs has no effect on me. Hah.

But, really, some people care more about authenticity, and some are just against emulation. They'll pay extra to get the best they can for the real thing, because that's just what feels right to them. There are some that are okay with alternate routes, though. Me? I'm one of those that prefer the real thing. Anything else just feels "off," or just wrong on some level.

I stick to playing on CRTs, though. But I'm not big on HDTVs to begin with, anyway, so maybe I'm not the best to answer all of that. Hah. The shots I took in my previous post are from the flat-screen CRT in my room. I play all of my classic consoles on it. I'd have it no other way.
 
S

Seik

Banned
KDash31987 said:
Is Saturn emulation even any decent nowadays? I've popped in some of my games into my PC to try it out of curiosity, but I couldn't get anything running decently at all. Not a big deal, though, I'd rather play on my Saturn that I've had since the mid '90s. I play on a CRT, too, so any loss of picture quality with HDTVs has no effect on me. Hah.

But, really, some people care more about authenticity, and some are just against emulation. They'll pay extra for the real thing, because that's just what feels right to them. There are some that are okay with alternate routes, though. Me? I'm one of those that prefer the real thing. Anything else just feels "off," or just wrong on some level.

I stick to playing on CRTs, though. But I'm not big on HDTVs to begin with, anyway, so maybe I'm not the best to answer all of that. Hah. The shots I took in my previous post are from the flat-screen CRT in my room. I play all of my classic consoles on it. I'd have it no other way.
Click to expand...

Saturn emulation is pretty much where it's at, I almost tried every single games in my collection on SSF and all of them are working perfectly.

All points of view are welcome here, so is yours. Since you're playing on a CRT I'd say you have the best setting. I consider mine gone, because I'm moving in 1 month and I don't want to bring it with me, it's slowly dying and shows it and since I'm no purist anymore I don't want to invest any time and space on another one. I pretty much saw it coming and that's why I went through my initial hassle about reaching the best quality on my HDTV a year ago, which resulted in a car wreck in which jack shit worked. I love my Saturn as well and playing on it is the best thing, but there's no way I'm hooking it on my HDTV, it feels like playing a game on Wii after playing it on Dolphin. Yeah I know the resolution is the same with SSF but the results are just mindblowing compared to your standard RCA connection. :(
 
T

televator

Member
Quackula said:
Keep going down that rabbit hole and you'll be like me and end up playing with commercial broadcast monitors and seriously considering picking up a $500 scaler like the XRGB.
Click to expand...

Quick! someone find me that gif of that creepy guy in the street that stares and grins at the camera while it zooms in on him.
 
K

KDash31987

Member
To me, the HD picture thing isn't all that big a deal...it's really all about the input lag. It messes me up in some games, even with Game Mode on. Not to mention the lack of light gun support. Those are two of the main reasons why I don't bother playing on HDTVs for the most part. I just have my PlayStation 3 and Wii U connected to one. I keep my Xbox 360 hooked up to my CRT since I play a lot of music games on it, and the lag messed me up, even with lag calibration.

The picture quality is, admittedly, also not particularly great with SD stuff on an HDTV...though I haven't really messed around with that much, to be honest. I had the Wii on mine until I got a Wii U, and I thought it looked fine, then I moved it to my CRT. It looks a lot better on the CRT...

So, yeah, I can imagine that everything would look better on an HDTV through emulator than the real thing. Just the higher quality video cables (VGA, DVI, HDMI) alone would make a noticeable difference, even if left at the original resolution.

By the way, nice collection, Seik. Mine feels weak in comparison. Hah.
 
E

encephalon

Member
I didn't think the picture would be a big deal until I saw the charm drained from Grandia's visuals and suddenly it the lack of TVs with proper hookup became apparent. The lack of S Video ports in HDTVs is a crime. As for lag, I haven't noticed any on my TV but I don't play heavily time sensitive games.
 
T

televator

Member
Seik said:
I grew up a lot since I started this thread one year ago.

What I mean by this.

-As you can see in my OP, I was playing these in 16:9, a choice that I still don't understand today (No seriously, what the hell was I thinking..). 4:3 is the way to go, definitely.

-I was playing with an Xbox controller, which I fixed later by using a Saturn/USB adapter, that's the way to go as well.

-I wasn't playing with scanlines, which Papersleeves here pointed out, at first I wasn't really hot at the idea (I thought it was only making the overall picture darker) but after awhile it really grew on me. This is the shit.

But there's one thing out there that I'm still not getting right, I guess. Why aren't you guys playing on an emulator if you want a crystal clear, high fidelity picture quality on your monitors/HDTVs? Maybe it's because I got burnt with the whole SCART/RGB story I told in my OP, but there's no way, no way in hell I'd pay 300-500$ to get the same quality. Apart from playing on the original console, I can't see the plus. Hell, you can even add scanlines for an even better result with SSF! :/

I can understand that playing on the Saturn itself is something that feels the best for the purists out there, but if one is that much of a purist, wouldn't it be best to play on a good old CRT?

I know some of you may think: 'I don't have a CRT anymore so I try to deal with what I have.' or 'I want to use my Saturn because I paid for it'. I'm aware it's not anyone who have/can have their PC connected to their TV as well. What I want to know is the answer of those who CAN do it, but doesn't. Because I got completely disconnected from this point of view since this thread began.
Click to expand...

I think there's some misunderstanding here. I have a 480i CRT... it accepts component...and it would give me the best picture...even better than S-video. That's all. I've used component on my old CRT when I had a PS2 and GameCube. There is quality to be gained. There isn't some magic ceiling for image quality on a CRT that stops at S-video.
 
Q

Quackula

Member
Flock said:
saturn to a pvm is an unbeatable combo imo.
Click to expand...

Wish I had a Sony PVM, but I have an old Mitsubishi RGB monitor that's similar I guess.

Kinda wanting to just go the scaler route, as I'm not too fond of having two TVs in my game room like this. That and quality CRTs can be a headache if they get problems. I've got some bad pincushion on my Mitsubishi monitor that is driving me nuts.
 
IrishNinja

IrishNinja

Member
yeah, im hooking this stuff in to my panny plasma via s-vid, down the road with a bigger place i'll sort out an SD set, 36" trinitrons (early/non-flat model, though i wanna find one bigger than that) go for like $50 on craigslist. it's at that point i'd consider either SCART or a scaler if i was ballin'

ps what's a PVM?
 
L

Lambda Pie

Banned
fuck, i should've kept my Saturn collection, could net me thousands of $/€ nowadays.

Last Bronx, Burning Rangers, Alien Trilogy, Enemy Zero, Amok, the Panzer trilogy, Torico, Exhumed, Loaded... almost every PAL release ever, to be honest.
 
Q

Quackula

Member
IrishNinja said:
yeah, im hooking this stuff in to my panny plasma via s-vid, down the road with a bigger place i'll sort out an SD set, 36" trinitrons (early/non-flat model, though i wanna find one bigger than that) go for like $50 on craigslist. it's at that point i'd consider either SCART or a scaler if i was ballin'

ps what's a PVM?
Click to expand...

PVMs are basically Sony's high-end professional CRT monitors. They're basically special kinds of TVs you see used in hospitals and tv studios and whatnot. They're also superb for gaming, better than any consumer model CRT you'll find.
 
T

Tain

Member
Seik said:
But there's one thing out there that I'm still not getting right, I guess. Why aren't you guys playing on an emulator if you want a crystal clear, high fidelity picture quality on your monitors/HDTVs? Maybe it's because I got burnt with the whole SCART/RGB story I told in my OP, but there's no way, no way in hell I'd pay 300-500$ to get the same quality. Apart from playing on the original console, I can't see the plus. Hell, you can even add scanlines for an even better result with SSF! :/
Click to expand...

One of the things with emulation, coming from an overall huge proponent that has fiddled with all sorts of emulators for years, is that as much as I'd like it to be perfect, it isn't. I'm not even talking about audio differences or differences in a certain effect or whatever, but rather the issues brought from forcing a game made for refresh rate X to run at refresh rate Y. In most cases, these issues force a user to make a basic decision: do I want to live with lag or do I want to live with screen tearing? The only emulator I've ever used where I didn't need to make this decision was bsnes. And honestly, the lag in SSF with vsync on seems worse than normal.

I use a CRT with my Saturn, and these very standard emulation issues combined with the look of the CRT are why I use the original hardware. If I had to use an HDTV, I probably would still use an emulator (and likely leave off vsync methods), but I can't blame people (people that, I'm assuming, have more cash than me) for wanting a perfect signal with as little latency as possible.
 
D

Dave Long

Banned
If you've never played the games in their original form, emulation will be fine 99% of the time for pretty much any system from the 32-bit era back now as far as I can tell. The problem comes when you know how the game plays. Even if I only spent half an hour with something way back when, my brain just knows when the timing is off, graphics are screwed up somehow or the music and sound don't jive. Slowdown at spots it never occurred before, you name it... I pick up on it.

This is why I appreciate Nintendo's Virtual Console so much, because it truly is awesome in how well it emulates the originals. I have a lot of Neo Geo AES games and you can't honestly tell the difference in most of them when played on Wii compared to the original. That's truly a feat even if the Neo is one of the best emulated systems around.

Even then, it's still not perfect. There's always something I'll notice that's just not quite right.

Fortunately, there are a number of very expensive to obtain games on the Virtual Console that can be had for a song there. You're definitely ok in that case, especially if you never played the original at all.

I play everything on a Sony Trinitron CRT through composite at the moment. I could go S-Video though and really should for systems that support it.
 
S

Seven Force

Banned
Seik said:
But there's one thing out there that I'm still not getting right, I guess. Why aren't you guys playing on an emulator if you want a crystal clear, high fidelity picture quality on your monitors/HDTVs? Maybe it's because I got burnt with the whole SCART/RGB story I told in my OP, but there's no way, no way in hell I'd pay 300-500$ to get the same quality. Apart from playing on the original console, I can't see the plus. Hell, you can even add scanlines for an even better result with SSF! :/
Click to expand...

Well, it's mostly because I don't really have a PC that can run SSF well. (I don't really do any PC gaming at all, I mostly use it for web browsing, managing music and school purposes, and I really don't feel the need to upgrade)

I have a readily available CRT if I get the itch to play anything that requires its use (Like lightgun games, for example) and I'm more than happy with my S-Video hookup to my HDTV. Hell, I'm not really picky about video quality at all. As long as the video signal shows up on my TV, chances are, I'll probably play it.
 
S

Shadow Hog

Member
Also, SSF's compatibility isn't 100% yet, even still. In the most recent revision I tried:

  • Clockwork Knight 2 hangs on a black screen when you try to open any menu.
  • Croc boots up to a black screen.
  • Rayman has Turbo permanently enabled for all button inputs, rendering the game unplayable (as you can't jump worth a damn, since letting go of the jump button cancels your upward momentum).
  • BUG! has severe spasms on the background layer, which doesn't render the game unplayable, but is rather unpleasant to look at.
  • Daytona USA's audio is reaaaaaaaaaally quiet for no discernable reason.
If I play the game on a console, none of these issues exist. This is why I continue to use my actual console - guaranteed compatibility. Don't get me wrong, SSF is leaps and bounds above the competition, but it's still got issues that need ironing out before it'd be a perfect substitute.

Also, I don't, and probably never will, get the love for scanlines. I've gamed on a CRT before, but any "scanline" effect I get looks nothing like the permanent dimming of several lines of pixels that emulators purport the effect was like.
 
O

oneida

Cock Strain, Lifetime Warranty
Dave Long said:
I play everything on a Sony Trinitron CRT through composite at the moment. I could go S-Video though and really should for systems that support it.
Click to expand...

My Saturn's is hooked up on a Trinitron, too. Here's the thing - you can spend hundreds of dollars and get a PVM and SCART inputs and really max out your set-up... Or you can do great on a Trinitron for much cheaper. It's a compromise, sure, but it's still significantly better than playing on an HDTV.
 
Valkyria

Valkyria

Banned
I got a Samsung 37" HDTV and through RGB I view it quite nicely. Here in Europe most of Saturns came with the RGB cable.
 
W

woodypop

Member
I'm probably in the minority here, but I just kinda glaze over all this SCART/RGB/PVM stuff. I have one Saturn hooked up via S-Video to a 40" LCD HDTV, and another Saturn hooked up via composite to a 19" CRT, and they both do me fine. I'm sure other methods produce much better results, but I don't mind playing on my current setups. I won't play in 16:9 mode, though. ;) (unless it's Panzer 2)

EDIT: in other words, I agree with Seven Force =)
 
D

djtiesto

is beloved, despite what anyone might say
cj_iwakura said:
Langrisser III and IV are considered bad, aren't they?
Click to expand...

Lots of people dislike 3 because you only control generals instead of micromanaging the troops like the other Langrisser games... but I've always been under the impression that 4 is considered the best in the series, and it's the only one of the imports that I've devoted any amount of time to (even though I own 3-5). It's a great game with some of Urushihara's best art... 5 I hear is also great but a bit easy for Langrisser vets.
 
L

LordAlu

Member
Man, with my Saturn boxed up in the basement SSF is a godsend. I'd forgotten how much I enjoyed Shining Force III! Some slight sound differences but such a good game. Might dig out my copy of Panzer Dragoon Saga once I've finished this!
 
Genesis Knight

Genesis Knight

Member
Shadow Hog said:
Doesn't NiGHTS also have a 16:9 mode?

It's rather surreal to see any games supporting 16:9 in that era, honestly. IIRC, Goldeneye also supports it, which is pretty cool. Talk about thinking ahead.
Click to expand...

Virtua Fighter 32x does as well. There's a Genesis soccer game that did, too, although I forget which.
 
K

KDash31987

Member
GulAtiCa said:
Wow, the s-video looks nice. I'm sure it will look even nicer compared to the RF cable. lol
Click to expand...

Oh, yeah, definitely. Even RF to composite is big. RF to S-Video would be freaking enormous. Hah.


televator said:
I think there's some misunderstanding here. I have a 480i CRT... it accepts component...and it would give me the best picture...even better than S-video. That's all. I've used component on my old CRT when I had a PS2 and GameCube. There is quality to be gained. There isn't some magic ceiling for image quality on a CRT that stops at S-video.
Click to expand...

I just decided to compare S-Video to component on my CRT TV. All I had to test it with was a DVD player that I had in another room, though. But, anyway, here's the results...

S-Video said:
P2120012_zps87a81eaf.jpg

P2120021_zps29de6ace.jpg
Click to expand...
Component Video said:
P2120013_zps008cbac6.jpg

P2120022_zpsd30da79b.jpg
Click to expand...

There's definitely a difference. Details are slightly crisper, and colors are separated better, so there's little to no bleeding.

It's not as big as composite to S-Video, but there's definitely a difference, though a much smaller one. For TVs that support it, I'd say it's worth it.

woodypop said:
Hmm... I guess it does. I did not know that. Will definitely have to check it out. I wonder if it's also true of Christmas Nights.
Click to expand...

I played it recently, and I do recall the option for 16:9 being in Christmas NiGHTS.
 
T

televator

Member
KDash31987 said:
I just decided to compare S-Video to component on my CRT TV. All I had to test it with was a DVD player that I had in another room, though. But, anyway, here's the results...




There's definitely a difference. Details are slightly crisper, and colors are separated better, so there's little to no bleeding.

It's not as big as composite to S-Video, but there's definitely a difference, though a much smaller one. For TVs that support it, I'd say it's worth it.
Click to expand...

Wow, thanks for taking the time to do that. The ability to carry an HD signal is purely coincidental to component. Color separation is main game. I can't tell you how annoying it gets whenever I start talking to someone about component connections and they immediately assume that my goal is to hook up to an HDTV...
 
K

KDash31987

Member
televator said:
Wow, thanks for taking the time to do that. The ability to carry an HD signal is purely coincidental to component. Color separation is main game. I can't tell you how annoying it gets whenever I start talking to someone about component connections and they immediately assume that my goal is to hook up to an HDTV...
Click to expand...

No problem, man. I just like helping people out when I can. And yeah...I've seen the same thing happen every time someone mentions component connections. I imagine it's pretty annoying. That's why the one time I ever brought it up, I specifically mentioned the type of TV I was using. Gotta think ahead! Haha.
 
S

Sixfortyfive

He who pursues two rabbits gets two rabbits.
Shadow Hog said:
Also, I don't, and probably never will, get the love for scanlines. I've gamed on a CRT before, but any "scanline" effect I get looks nothing like the permanent dimming of several lines of pixels that emulators purport the effect was like.
Click to expand...
I'm pretty much with you when it comes to scanline fetishists. I've seen a minute number of emulator scanline filters that look great/accurate, and I wouldn't be averse to trying them out, but most are hideous and jarring exaggerations of what a CRT actually looks like. From normal viewing distances, I rarely if ever noticed it on CRTs at all. I probably wouldn't bother with them most of the time even if I was using a scaler like the XRGB. I always felt like they were a defect/shortcoming of CRT technology and have never understood the desire to reproduce them that certain hobbyists have.

I remember an exchange a friend and I had while I was quickly cycling through the graphic options for Streets of Rage Remake. He recoiled in his chair as I was flipping through the options with scanlines. "Why would you ever use that?" "You'd be shocked at how many people go apeshit over that nonsense."
 
T

Tain

Member
Many emulators literally just double the image and make every other line a black line. This is gross. Making these lines transparent (25% present) is slightly better.

The only scanline filter I take seriously is the MAME/MESS HLSL scanline filter. And since MAME/MESS is, in the long run, the most important emulator period, I'm fine with that.
 
S

Shadow Hog

Member
Ah, you mean this one:
Tain said:
Hideous. People should instead be talking about the new MAME D3D9 HLSL filter, now part of official MAME.

y1ppJDAIJGnm9KL1vWy4YAvVpgdIaY9f5pFOEmvZNAl-jgI9kVBcQtHFPmABCuf-COPHX-qDm0wzI5qgKtSMhTLjWnFxJ-GA0Qy
Click to expand...
It's definitely closer to what I remember, but I think this one is even closer:
ninjaurbano said:
There is a CRT shader that does wonders with the picture.


ZjCtc.png


Lw7wU.png


TVf7G.png


UozuH.png


mQuW6.png
Click to expand...
However, while it's "closer", I would only see this if I was playing the game with my face a few inches from the television screen, which, for fairly obvious reasons, I didn't usually do. At a distance, I'd just see a (relatively) clean image.
 
T

Tain

Member
That's the one I'm talking about, though it's highly configurable and the Metal Slug shot is using some pretty out-there settings. Images like those SNES games shouldn't be hard to reproduce in MESS with the HLSL filter.

I'm usually playing SD games very close to the screen, be it emulated or using original hardware on my CRT, but for me it's not a matter of recreating the original image as much as it is one of aesthetic preference.
 
G

GulAtiCa

Member
Oh wow. I got my composite video cable today, and already I can see a difference. Hopefully one day I'll be able to get a S-Video
 
smbu2000

smbu2000

Member
Do PVMs really make that much of a difference? I'm currently using my Saturn on a 25" Sony Wega (flat screen) connected with an rgb cable(JP21) to my Selecty21 and that is connected to the tv via JP21 -> AV Multi cable (rgb, used on Wega tv's kind of like the AV plug on a ps1/ps2)
I also have my Mega Drive/Mega CD combo connected to the Selecty21 via JP21 rgb cable as well.

I was thinking about trying to pick up a used pvm (maybe 20") and trying it out. The only problem is that it has BNC connectors for rgb so I'd have to get some new cable adapters. Still think I might try it out if I can find a cheap one.
 
E

ExitPlanetDust

Member
That's crazy about the S-Video cable shortage. I got extremely lucky with mine. Some eBay seller was selling official JP S-Video cables for around $10 a few years ago. It came in an official box and everything. I had no idea that Sega offered an official S-Video cable for the Saturn until I came across his listing. When I shared my find with some Racketboy forum members, everyone started buying this guy's cables up. The seller quickly jacked up the price. Haha, maybe he realized what was going on.

It's kind of odd, but I think that my official Saturn S-Video cable might be one of the rarest things I own now. It is of fantastic build quality too. There is a noticeable picture quality improvement over even the 3rd party S-Video cables I had used in the past.
 
E

ExitPlanetDust

Member
woodypop said:
Anyone have experience with this bad boy?



I never got a chance to try it. But some of the games (Sega Rally, Daytona USA, Bomberman, Virtual-On) seem like they would have been awesome over the Netlink. But I wonder: how did they perform online?
Click to expand...

My friend and I bought a couple awhile back. We never got to try them out though. I haven't had a land line in years and they don't work well (if at all) over digital lines.

Apparently gameplay is practically lagless, even from states away.

Youtube channel dedicated to late 90s Virtual On Netlink matches

Part 1 of Jerry Terrifying's Netlink series

Here's a link to a Netlink community forum: http://www.saturnleague.com/phpBB3/

If you have the means to hook it up and know someone you can connect to without paying an arm and a leg in long distance charges, it could be fun.
 
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