If Trump wasn't a massive idiot who is easily played then yes. But as it is he's predisposed to conflict with the larger GOP and his inability to let anything go can easily be used against him. If he were just a standard GOP dude then this would be doomed to failure, but...it's Trump so there's a shot.
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Senate Democrats surprising strategy: trying to align with Donald Trump
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If Trump wasn't a massive idiot who is easily played then yes. But as it is he's predisposed to conflict with the larger GOP and his inability to let anything go can easily be used against him. If he were just a standard GOP dude then this would be doomed to failure, but...it's Trump so there's a shot.
Earthstrike
Member
Nothing drives the nutjobs crazy like republicans agreeing with democrats.
Chmpocalypse
Blizzard
The problem is, will they compromise on things that should not be touched, like civil rights?
Historically, they have. Third Way bullshit and all that. I mean, shit, how do you think we got NAFTA and DOMA?
ShironRedshift
Member
At the same time, it appears that people aren't so stupid as to blame the President for obstructionism from Congress. Otherwise, Obama's favorables wouldn't be what they are if people transferred that to the President. Obstructionism appears to only tank Congress's numbers, and even that mostly among Democrats--Republicans largely don't care because they want small government anyway and even for those that don't they have the tools of voter suppression laws, gerrymandering, and the advantages they generally have in off-year elections on their side. Democrats don't have any of that, so them pulling the same trick doesn't really work especially when they're the minority party.
It's a risky strategy, yeah, but I don't see much better while they're the minority party. The alternative options are basically just do nothing or obstruct everything, neither of which will hurt Trump or better their chances so I don't really see the point in not at least trying to get what we can done.
I'd argue that obstructionism is exactly why the Republicans have dominated Dems for the past 8 years. It kept their based engaged and passionate, it destroyed most of Obama's domestic agenda, and left his crowning achievement, health care reform, in shambles due to no common sense amendments to improve it. Working with Trump won't lead to any legislative victories. McConnell and Ryan assure that. All it does is validate him, and deflate the base.
The benefit of not reaching across the aisle for Trump is that you're not on record attempting to work with a US president with a white supremacist as his chief strategist. Even if Ted Cruz was president I would have no issue with bipartisanship but we can't just treat Trump as some regular Republican president.
LegendofJoe
Member
Can you imagine Trump getting pissed off to the point of asking his supporters to vote Democrat because the GOP won't play ball with his infrastructure proposal? I can and it's glorious.
hodayathink
Member
The whole thing is basically about how beholden Trump feels to the Republican party. We know that these are the parts of his platform they don't agree with. The question is will he be willing to give them up for the benefit of the party or not? Because if not, that drives a wedge between new Trump's supporters and the traditional GOP that can be used to hurt them during midterms (your senator/representative wouldn't even vote for the things the man you voted for president wanted to do).
Title is misleading. Not sure it's surprising that dems would support policies dems always support and said they'd support if trump happened to support them.
I agree the strategy has nuance and potential consequences, but this is pretty in line with what dems have been saying all along.
I agree the strategy has nuance and potential consequences, but this is pretty in line with what dems have been saying all along.
VendettaRed07
Member
Well this is sort of a moot point because we would only work with him if it actually led to this.
Obstruct what is worth obstructing. Trump will give plenty of reasons to keep the dem base energized. But Democrats better not vote against affordable child care bills just to make the majority party look bad. I don't want to subscribe to a party that does that.
boiled goose
good with gravy
Small government free market principles?
Ugh the right wing framing... :/
Ugh the right wing framing... :/
DragonSworne
Banned
Why do I have a feeling that the compromises will end up being "we'll give you maternity leave if you let us torture muslims".
Tinfoilhatsron
Banned
NeoGAF is Reddit-2.0 confirmed.
ShironRedshift
Member
Yes. Like I said, the Republican base loves small government and they hate the Democrats so that combination of factors is why it works from them. And they stop themselves from losing seats to Democrats and Independents who don't like that shit by a combination of gerrymandering, voter suppression and ID laws, and using off-year elections and lower voter turnout to their advantage.
The same can't be said for Democrats. Their base is different from the Republican base. They don't have the same vicious hate of the government that Republicans do. They just want to see stuff get done. And if that doesn't happen... well, they're probably going to be in worse shape than they would have already been.
And in any case, like I said, it has no effect on the President either way. Obama's favorables are great. If obstructionism reflected on the President, his favorables should be in the toilet, but it's the opposite. I can only expect that would hold true with a Republican as President especially as on top of that it's as the saying goes "Republicans fall in line, Democrats fall in love." They'll show up regardless and vote in force to get rid of the Democrats if they try that. Democrats on the other hand? Playing a very risky game if you're betting on that energizing the base, since the Democratic base is very different and isn't as favorable to that kind of nonsense.
And since one of the big problems in this election was a hyper-energized Republican base that pretty much came out of nowhere and nobody expected to be as energized and to come out in as much force as it did this election, it's really playing with a super-huge fire to bet whatever base is energized on the Democratic side by that strategy wouldn't be outweighed by the Republican base it causes to show up due to being ticked off at the D's trying to steal their tricks. That's pretty much the exact strategy Clinton bet on, after all (an energized D base showing up and the R base being depressed--the D's do indeed appear to have shown up for the most part in areas like Pennsylvania and Florida, but they were overrun by hyper-energized R's elsewhere). She lost. I'm not quite so prepared to bet on the same strategy again.
soul creator
Member
But that would require challenging capitalism, and we can't have that
Count me skeptical as to how well this will work out for the Democrats.
The driving a wedge between Trump and the GOP, especially, is probably gonna blow up pretty badly in their faces. :/
The driving a wedge between Trump and the GOP, especially, is probably gonna blow up pretty badly in their faces. :/
Your best hope is that he dies of a heart attack within two years and Democrats go against Pence.
I have all sorts of conflicting feelings on all of this, but my primary thoughts on an infrastructure bill right now is whether that means fixing roads and bridges that desperately need to be fixed, new buildings we actually need, etc., or whether "infrastructure bill" means "I need [x] hundreds of million dollars for my stupid fucking wall"
I'm not optimistic
I'm not optimistic
A lot of people forget that Trump was already looking into starting a PAC to exact revenge on anyone who didn't kiss the ring once he won the nomination. If he pulls through and really does it the Dems won't even have to do any real work to create a schism in the GOP.
Peter Ian Staker
Member
True.
Evening Musuko
Black Korea
I teased something like this in another thread where Trump and the GOP get so pissed at each other that he pretty much says "Fuck it, Vote Democrat" in 2018. The problem is most GOP voters are going to vote GOP no matter what, and Democrats might not be on board because of the hatred towards Trump and that might seem to some that the Democrats have sold out to him, and the ones that do vote might not cause enough of a flip because mid-terms lol
Then again, 2 years is a long time in politics so who knows what the fuck will happen.
So in one corner you have the modern idea heavily embraced by Republicans, that any and all co-operation when in the minority position aids in your own defeat by handing your opposition victories and achievements they can use against you come election time. Especially if your opposition is trying to argue they can mend divides and form bi-partisan consensus.
There is clearly weight to this argument.
On the other hand you have the classic Democratic position that permeated throughout the Bush administration, that good governance, even if it hands the opponent victories they can use against you, even if you bend principles and concede ideals, will ultimately strengthen the trust and brand of your party. And when the opponent falters you are well positioned to capitalize.
This coalition seems to be staking out a middle ground. One that makes sense when contrasted with the political ignorance of Trump and the rhetoric promised that in a broad sense aligns with some of the platforms of the left.
IMO it is a good strategy. But like all things Democratic, the devil is in the execution and Democrats are not always the best on that front....And that is putting it lightly.
There is clearly weight to this argument.
On the other hand you have the classic Democratic position that permeated throughout the Bush administration, that good governance, even if it hands the opponent victories they can use against you, even if you bend principles and concede ideals, will ultimately strengthen the trust and brand of your party. And when the opponent falters you are well positioned to capitalize.
This coalition seems to be staking out a middle ground. One that makes sense when contrasted with the political ignorance of Trump and the rhetoric promised that in a broad sense aligns with some of the platforms of the left.
IMO it is a good strategy. But like all things Democratic, the devil is in the execution and Democrats are not always the best on that front....And that is putting it lightly.
Tallshortman
Member
Did you even read the article? Why would they not want to work with Trump if he's actually serious about some policies popular with many dems like infrastructure spending? It clearly spells out they're only going to work with him on policies they support.
Trump will just drop those pet issues after it's explained to him by his staff that they are political liabilities along with these telegraphed strategies. Trump is not principled. Any topic they think they can leverage his favor on opposing house and senate GOP will simply be dropped by Trump, because he simply doesn't really give a shit either way from one issue to the next.
-Plasma Reus-
Service guarantees member status
Wow fucking embarrassing.
I think if Trump was just a little bit more principled, a little bit more knowledgable of policy, this may have a chance.
However seeing how his cabinet is shaping up, who his inner circle is, how manipulative Bannon seems to be of Trump, I think it is more likely he ends up falling in line and being a semi volatile vessel for their agendas. Where his undoing will come, if it does, through internal dysfunction and Trump pissing off his own party who are well aware of his historic low poll numbers coming into office.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
I read even less than that!
You Are Viewtiful
Member
You're giving Trump achievements to run on in 2020. It really depends on what you want. NO ONE is going to give the Congress Dems any credit for that extra spending, that's wishful thinking.
SenorArdilla
Member
Is this the part where Democrats and Republicans swap parties again?
Tallshortman
Member
I'm sure there will be plenty of opportunities for them to block republican legislation and Trump certainly will not have a smooth 4 years.
So hypothetically let's say Trump ran for 8 years, only passed stuff that helps *everyone* and doesn't actually ever act on any of the heinous bullshit. Would you be against that just because he might claim credit?
Laughing Banana
Weeping Pickle
Well, they lost in all three corners of the government during the election so they have no time to be grandstanding.
Literally impossible, the job as president means hundreds of decisions made every week, he will fuck it up many times in the next 4 years regardless of major legislation he will want ti push.
hodayathink
Member
And then in this situation, you hammer him for not actually trying to implement the very things he ran on. Remember that you're not trying to win over the entire Republican base, just the working class voters who Trump won this election that Obama won in 2008 and 2012. And if you can tell them that those things he campaigned on to help you, he dropped those as soon as the Republican establishment got in his ear, you can, in theory, turn them on Trump and the current Republican party for a long time (even if they say they're going to help me, direct history now shows me they don't care).
Some people don't actually care about the good if they're not the ones doing it.
Nothing is preventing the Democrats from ultimately pursuing a Republican style strategy of across the board obstructionism if Trump proves to not be sincere in his rhetoric that shares mutual interest. Or if his sincerity is manifested in ways that the Democrats ultimately conclude is not in line with their ideals or principles.
Lets keep in mind too that Schumer and Pelosi have been around. They both dealt first hand with the Rovian tactics of the Bush administration and the obstructionist Republicans of the Obama administration. And despite the populist sentiment around politics, people tend to get better in their jobs with experience. There is good reason to believe the strategy being crafted is being done with respect to lessons from history.....Hopefully.
SenorArdilla
Member
Can't wait to see Trump talk about his new best friends Pelosi and Schumer.
I would feel better about this plan if his base wasn't already willing to abandon causality in the first place. I can't find a reason to expect they wont blame someone and/or a group when things don't pan out. There will be choreographed misdirection of that frustration like never before.
The Lamonster
Member
Guys. This is a good thing.
The problem is that I don't trust democrats to do it properly.
You give these spineless cowards a window to agree with Trump on one issue and as soon as the first terrorist attack happens, they will be so afraid to be seen as cowards that they will act like the embodiment of the god of cowardice and jump on the bandwagon of muslim interrement camps just like they did the Iraq war.
Obstructionism is irrational and bad for the country; if doing bad for the country is the way to win elections, then politics is fucked either way because no president, democrat or republican, will ever do the right thing; the problem is that a lot of democrat politicians seem to lack a moral compass that tell them when to colaborate and when to oppose and now, more than ever, you need to have that fucking sharp.
Again with the Bush era reference: If democrats had be in favor of No Child Left Behind but opposed the Iraq War, the party would probably be a lot better today. But nope, cowards with no moral compass afraid to be seen as cowards with no moral compass; the worst voices in the country shout for violence, blood and barbarism and there they go crawling into obedience.
You give these spineless cowards a window to agree with Trump on one issue and as soon as the first terrorist attack happens, they will be so afraid to be seen as cowards that they will act like the embodiment of the god of cowardice and jump on the bandwagon of muslim interrement camps just like they did the Iraq war.
Obstructionism is irrational and bad for the country; if doing bad for the country is the way to win elections, then politics is fucked either way because no president, democrat or republican, will ever do the right thing; the problem is that a lot of democrat politicians seem to lack a moral compass that tell them when to colaborate and when to oppose and now, more than ever, you need to have that fucking sharp.
Again with the Bush era reference: If democrats had be in favor of No Child Left Behind but opposed the Iraq War, the party would probably be a lot better today. But nope, cowards with no moral compass afraid to be seen as cowards with no moral compass; the worst voices in the country shout for violence, blood and barbarism and there they go crawling into obedience.
No Child Left Behind has been awful
If this isn't kabuki theater I don't know what to say.
Hiring Bannon makes it clear that Trump is pushing an agenda that is far more dangerous than the establishment GOP. Any political capital from legislative victories will only be spent on implementing the most reprehensible parts of the Trump platform.
I'm ok with gridlock if it mean's none of Trump hateful platform has even a chance to be implemented. I would never trade a good infrastructure bill for civil rights violations. Fuck that.
Hiring Bannon makes it clear that Trump is pushing an agenda that is far more dangerous than the establishment GOP. Any political capital from legislative victories will only be spent on implementing the most reprehensible parts of the Trump platform.
I'm ok with gridlock if it mean's none of Trump hateful platform has even a chance to be implemented. I would never trade a good infrastructure bill for civil rights violations. Fuck that.
Evening Musuko
Black Korea
Yeah, I wasn't really serious with my idea in that thread, but I see where you're going and I agree. Trump is probably never going to have numbers around 50 like Obama even if he does some good, and I think after the GOP "gives him a chance" those numbers are going to be crashing down yuge. Historic lows. So low.
I listened to a podcast a week or so ago before election day and one of the hosts said, "This is an election that Trump can't win, but Hillary can lose" and I think that sums up the Democratic Party. Trump will never be a popular president and his stench will be on the GOP for a long time, but the Democrats need to put in the work and not just rely on Trump's unpopularity to coast them to the finish line like they did this year.
TheLaughingStock
Member
Excellent plan. If Bannon sticks around then I hope Democrats work with him on financial reform and holding the big fish of white collar crime accountable.
Fox Mulder
Member
Reaching across the aisle will really get dems to go out and vote in 2018.
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