Urprobablyright
Banned
Well both videos are satisfyingly fallible so I'm all for it 
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Seriously what the hell? Dreams is everything Unlimited Detail promised
- Thread starter onQ123
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TheAmazingSpiderMan
Member
Lol but I haven’t given my opinion on the game?? Lol you came out stating your opinion and score of the game as if people on here are going to look at your score and decide if they want the game or not. I just told you in other words no one will.
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Tripolygon
Banned
How is this possible?
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Tripolygon
Banned
The difference is streamlined user interface and how tightly coupled each aspect is to the other parts. Same tools you use in creating music is same tools you'll use to create a sculpt and program using the visual programming rather than scripting. It is not as flexible because of how easy it is to pick up but it still has depth to it.
Guilty_AI
Member
So, i suppose something along the lines of "Friendly for first timers, but not much for people used to normal tools?"
Tripolygon
Banned
Its easy to pick up for those who have used other tools. But friendly to pick up for first timers. I've mostly just been messing with the audio part which quite frankly puts a lot of DAWs on blast with how easy and deep the audio engine is.
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Guilty_AI
Member
Seems pretty interesting. I'd really prefered they made this into a full blown tool that can be worked with on pcs. The limitations of being tied to a specific platform and the fact you can't create projects to be sold inevitably bind the potential of this thing.
Tripolygon
Banned
I can't argue with that. We'll have to wait and see how their future goals for the platform shapes out.
Omega Supreme Holopsicon
Member
What I'm wondering is these volumetric engines with exponentially more voxels, that were thought to be impossible to make(atomontage, euclideon), how would they affect voxel global illumination? One of the issues with voxel global illumination seemed to be that you had too few voxels being used.
To be fair didn't they say these demos were running even on very old laptops. It would be interesting to see the tech being tailored to high end h/w, and more ram.
TLZ
Banned
You serious?
TLZ
Banned
Only your own should matter to you when playing games. You're the one playing, not them.
LittleBigGamer
Banned
LittleBigGamer
Banned
this is the case when you discussing about a game with yourself. When you discuss with others you have to think objectively even if you don't like a game.
Example. I don't like Halo games, but will be the first games I will recommend to a guy who ask me about what games to buy for an Xbox.
Some games are good games. You don't have to like them to be considered good games.
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TLZ
Banned
You can recommend all the games you think are great, but it still won't mean they'll like it too.
Psykodad
Banned
It'll always be subjective though.
There are obviously both subjective and objective aspects to a (good or bad) game. The reviewers' job is to value those objective aspects and a good reviewer is someone who is able to analyze the objective parts of the gameplay, level design, story etc. (the parts that make it a game) and be able to explain what works and what doesn't.
Just because you have a personal experience when you play doesn't mean that you cannot judge a game objectively. There is a reason why some games are considered better than others.
joe_zazen
Member
if you ask actual critics, they will tell you that their work is subjective. Sure they try to minimise bias, nostalgia, what mood they are in; while giving recognition to technical,achievments. but at the end of the day, their evaluation is based on how they feel about a game, nothing more.
Publishers know this is how reviews work, so they have systems in place for those games that they believe need good reviews to help sales. This involves hiring reviewers that represent the tastes of typical reviewers to help with game development through consultation and faux reviews. It also helps review scores when reviewers know company X hires reviewers for 10 times their normal pay to help with this stuff. You are less likely to slam a company that might hire you in the future.
so yeah, with the exception of some low budget games, critic loved games are loved because they are tailored to the tastes of critics. Not because critics are highly trained and educated specialists conducting lab analysis, giving you objective truth.
High metacritic means little unless you have the same subjective tastes as an aggregate group of reviewers (so, 20-30 year old middle class, American dilettantes who play waaay too many fucking videogames and probably have a useless english degree).
Knowing this will free you from fomo and the hype cycle, and give you confidence to like what you like, and hate what you hate.
You will need to explain to me why that renders any objective valuation invaluable. The components of what makes a game are objective, not subjective. If you have been gaming for a lot of years you know what mechanics works well and what doesn't. The sleazy methods from the publishers doesn't change that.
diffusionx
Gold Member
That's all subjective though.
Like, the fact that a game has level design is objective. Whether it is good or not is subjective.
No it's not, whether or not you like it is subjective. Good or bad will always be an objective assessment that is ususally based on some kind of justified analysis. For example, it is an objective fact that From Software games are universally praised for its level design, and there are objective reasons why that is. Its not like From Software rolls the dice and just gets lucky every time they make a game, they know what works and what doesn't through lots of years of experience. Another example is how people love The Room (movie), simply because it is a downright objectively bad movie. As long as there is a certain level of craftmanship (be it in art, movies, games, music etc.), and i guess a certain level of 'tapping into the time spirit', there will always be an inherent objective value. I respect your opinion, but when you have been studying philosophy for 4 years it kinda irks when people can't differentiate between the basic concepts of subjectivity and objectivity.
I don't think that people who claim that you can only understand the world subjectivity realize how controversial and unjustified that statement is. I get why people would like their personal experiences to be some kind of sacrosanct and untouchable free space, and that if they like something it means that it is good, were it not for a commercial industry that has specialised in successfully capitalizing on peoples emotions for a century, or at least since Freud.
Videogames are usually the least subjective compared to other creative media, since a videogame is built upon a lot of more or less tangible systems.
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For dreams you'd need playstation move controllers for serious projects as regular controllers aren't at all ideal for creating.
diffusionx
Gold Member
I mean, people have been talking about this stuff since Plato, right. You're essentially arguing that there is an ideal form of good level design and the question is whether or not game X gets closer to it than game Y.
Can you not imagine a world where From Software games are actually out of style and not in vogue? I can think of many, many games, concepts, and styles that were popular and even thought to be a new beginning only to fall out of favor. And sometimes, the stuff falls out of favor and comes back (there was once a time when 2D was considered kind of fuddy-duddy). I mean, Dark Souls is a game that is only about 10 years old. Or do you think this stuff is always going to be considered brilliant and 1000 years from now people will still be looking at Dark Souls like some ideal form of a videogame?
I think getting out there and saying, I *know* that game XYZ is objectively brilliant, 10/10 is more arrogant than anything. What you are saying may be true theoretically but I don't presume that we can know what is "objectively good" particularly for such a young medium. There are certainly elements in certain genres we find appealing, like you don't want a fighting game with shit collision or something like that, but as to whether or not that turns into an objective valuation, I don't think it is that.
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Indeed they have, but no, I am arguing that craftmanship and how the product relates to its time and space (spirit, if you will), has perfectly assessable objective attributes. That is merely an observation (a fairly common one at that), and not necessarily relying on Platos' absolute forms, although even he argued that these forms were never fully attainable.
I can imagine From Software games going out of style (and come back for that matter), but the fact that they have mastered their craft, in their time, is hard to argue against. If others develop Froms' style further, it will only add to the medium. For example, we still recognize Da Vinci as a master of his craft, even though you could find street painters who are able to mimic him perfectly today. Craftmanship + relation to time and space. Some stuff just hits, and it's not random why it does.
I agree that calling something undeniably objectively good is stretching it a bit too much, but remember that this is a discussion about whether or not an objective valuation holds any merit, and not if it is the ultimate manifestation of 'good' in and of itself.
I forgot to add, that I too, find the X/10 scoring problematic, since it kinda undermines the profoundness of any critique. That's why I said that a good reviewer is someone who has the sense and/or skill to assess the objective parts of a game in a way that the reader/viewer can understand and relate to. Shitty hit detection is not only an undeniable objective observation/statement, it is a very relevant one.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
This is incorrect. Take this game on the PS2....
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You couldn't be "objective" about this game when reviewing it. It went against almost ALL standards, yet it was one of the greatest made games of that generation.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
This is so beautiful.
iconmaster
Banned
I'm willing to believe Dreams can be that good, but I'd like confirmation from another source who's played this level on Dreams.
I agree, however what you just wrote is an objective statement, meaning that you can understand the game objectively.
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
But a review's bottom line doesn't come down to what it does or doesn't do objectively.
Keihart
Member
Isn't making stuff in Dreams also gameplay? it's a game about making games, so playing the creations and making them are both part of the gameplay loop.
It's not rocket science to understand it, bu you seem confused.
pixelation
Member
"Closer to the River" is the most photo realistic shit I have seen this gen no doubt. Crazy that it was made in Dreams yet it doesn't have that trademark Dreams "fuzzy" look to it.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
This is just incredible. This guy is a wizard.
Think they said they are working to support Dreams for VR.
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why can’t you just enjoy things? Why do you need to trash Xbox games along the way?
Anyway.
On topic:
The games people create in this look great. Yes, they look great and a lot of effort have been invested there.
But are they actually fun? The only reaction I saw: „looks great!“ but anything else?
For example, the fallout clone, looked great yeah, but why would I play this?
Is it maybe that’s why it isn’t selling to well? I mean the sales in Japan were abysmal.
and it’s even already on sale! And they even released a demo. Why?
can someone show me some FUN games created in dreams? Not just games that look great or games where you can see that someone put a lot of effort into it.
mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
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mckmas8808
Mckmaster uses MasterCard to buy Slave drives
Anybody that has Dreams, please check out Funky Bones IV. It's a fun platformer. Took me 45-60 minutes to complete.
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PleaseDontBanMe
Banned
still waiting for VR patch
PleaseDontBanMe
Banned
this is just a dude who slapped a made in dreams watermark on some footage he took in the woods
Never said it did, so again I agree. I just made an argument that everything subjective can be understood objectively, which basically means that comments like 'it's all subjective, though' are incorrect.
Remember, I started out saying that a game has both objective and subjective aspects.
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I can't believe nobody called that person on this bullshit, the graphs of the other games have the complete X and Y showing, Dreams hasn't even been out as long as those games. That isn't near to close or accurate data, it's called MISLEADING STATISTICS, if you look closely at the months they're comparing, the months are jumping all over the place for each game.
Yea that works for people frothing at the mouth because Sony fanbois are using this as some sort of measuring stick, but for reality, and people that know how graphs work, this is just awful.
Dreams is OK, hopefully it will inspire the people with top Dreams to go onto making games.
Dreams is Stone Soup, when the hype dies away, so will the game's community.
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LittleBigGamer
Banned
D.Final
Banned
DeepEnigma
Gold Member
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