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[Dunki]

I am really surprised by this article. This is waht I call journalistic work to be honest.

IT all about the women working at Atari during the Nolan Bushnell area.

Over the last week, Kotaku interviewed 12 of Atari’s earliest female employees, in the hopes of hearing their stories—good or bad—about working at Atari in the ‘70s and early ‘80s. The culture they told us about was certainly, as Playboydescribed it, one of “sex, drugs, and video games,” but one in which all 12 employees say they freely participated, if they participated at all. Many interviewees said it was the best job they ever had, adding that news of Bushnell’s rescinded award struck them as shocking or unfair.

https://kotaku.com/sex-pong-and-pioneers-what-atari-was-really-like-ac-1822930057


This is the best written article about this whole mess and it is a long one. When I think about real games journalism this is what I expect it to be to be honest. It is a must read. And by this GDC should apologize to Nolan Bushnell

 

[KevinKeene]

Shocked to see Kotaku being the ones to publish an article like that.

 

[NahaNago]

Shocked to see Kotaku being the ones to publish an article like that.

and it wasn't written by Jason Schrier which is even more shocking.

 

[subsmoke]

I'm surprised there would be so much sex happening at a video game development company. I usually think of game developers as being nerdy and not very good at talking to women.

 

[Alx]

I'm surprised there would be so much sex happening at a video game development company. I usually think of game developers as being nerdy and not very good at talking to women.

It was the 70s, developers were more "crazy visionaries" than "basement nerds" at the time.

 

[caffeware]

It was the 70s, developers were more "crazy visionaries" than "basement nerds" at the time.

No. I think more like "jobs was fucking, while wozniak was tinkering".

 

[ultrazilla]

So basically it was adults engaging in consensual behavior and there's no "fire" here. Awesome!

 

[KevinKeene]

and it wasn't written by Jason Schrier which is even more shocking.

A good, balanced, fair article written NOT by Jason Schreier isn't shocking at all

 

[wondermega]

Decent article, unusual for Kotaku in that regard (I'm used to it being more clickbaity and pandering junk as of late). Still felt a little tiptoe-y and trying not to really be apologetic in one direction or the other, but I guess that's the line they must toe at the moment. I don't mean to come off as harsh, but this whole affair still feels a bit one-sided. The guy's reputation does matter, and he has sort of been a pawn through all of this - at this point he probably doesn't really care one way or the other about the award or what the GDC thinks, and would prefer to be left out of the limelight I'd imagine. Anyway, at the very least it will be very interesting to see what, if any, fallout comes of all of this in the coming years. Will the industry continue to change? Certainly. Will other people who have contributed to this industry (and others) be taken to task for what they represent, more than what they have done? We will see..

 

[NahaNago]

A good, balanced, fair article written NOT by Jason Schreier isn't shocking at all

true but I was simply talking about Kotaku which I will confess I'm biased against due to several articles a while back and have honestly stopped visiting since then.

 

[StrategyFan]

I'm surprised there would be so much sex happening at a video game development company. I usually think of game developers as being nerdy and not very good at talking to women.

atari was kind of extreme, but a lot of companies changed when they realized they actually wanted to be able to hire from a wider pool of people. also, a lot of the atari stuff is basically illegal now

not everyone (that includes men) wants to work in a frat-house environment. all the casual drug use and sexual stuff might be fun for some people, but it turns away a lot of the more professional crowd

the real loss is really about all the talented people who didn't go into games or didn't stick with a career in the games industry because of its reputation.

 

[The Sane Psycho]

I hope Bushnell gets his award after all this. He deserves it thanks to his many contributions to gaming. Gaming would not be where it is today if it weren't for Atari, games like Pong and Breakout, and of course, the Atari 2600. While Atari eventually fucked up and caused the North American video game crash of 1983, it's important to note that Bushnell pretty much kickstarted the entire games industry, becoming one of the most influential figures in the process.

And don't even give me any shit about Pong not being the first video game. I am well aware that there were several games before Pong. But if you wanted to simplify things, you could really put the history of gaming into three sections: BP/AP, BSMB/ASMB, and BSM64/ASM64- Before Pong/After Pong, Before Super Mario Bros./After Super Mario Bros., and Before Super Mario 64/ After Super Mario 64. Of course, that's an extreme oversimplification and leaves out many important games, consoles, and developers, but you get my point I hope.

Also, he should get a personal apology from the GDC and Brianna Wu.

 

[Typhares]

Eh it's still heavily loaded to justify some completely over the top witch hunt:
"If it isn’t the women of Atari who paint a bad picture of Nolan Bushnell, it’s the culture he created there that, decades later, has mushroomed into something else."
"If it isn’t the women of Atari who paint a bad picture of Nolan Bushnell, it is his braggadocio attitude, his carnival-barker hype with a chauvinist tinge, that does."
So basically everyone involved only has positive things to say but let me put a negative spin on this anyway.

Seems like one of the atari women calling it out too

 

[TheGraykid]

Interesting article. It kinda raises more questions to me than it answers. Is it possible to properly evaluate the behaviour of people in the past when social norms can change so greatly over time?

 

[NiiloPielinen]

Apparently some additional details about the hottub thing have surfaced:

Alcorn’s hot tub board meeting story was intended to be humorous. Alcorn was remembering a time when the board of directors pissed off their attorney by handling legal documents in a pool of water. In retelling that story, an important detail was neglected — who was on the board of directors — and that detail sheds light on the tone of Bushnell’s invitation.

Who was in that meeting, alongside Bushnell and Dabney? Their wives. Paula Bushnell and Joan Dabney were board members. Now, we have a story where at least two married couples were in a hot tub with six other people and an attorney standing by, and Bushnell, married, invited his assistant to join them. Does this sound more like a friendly proposal, or something untoward?

https://medium.com/@MorganRamsay/a-few-corrections-and-comments-1c3e21e362d6

 

[TannerDemoz]

Great read. Really surprised to see this was Kotaku – assumed a longform Eurogamer piece beore it clicked.

Interesting article. It kinda raises more questions to me than it answers. Is it possible to properly evaluate the behaviour of people in the past when social norms can change so greatly over time?

I think you're right. It's really difficult and I don't think it's fair Bushnel didn't get his award.

 

[TheGraykid]

Great read. Really surprised to see this was Kotaku – assumed a longform Eurogamer piece beore it clicked.



I think you're right. It's really difficult and I don't think it's fair Bushnel didn't get his award.

He will get his award, it just won't be this year. Even people like Brianna Wu said he should get an award, just not this year, that this year should probably be for a woman.

 

[KevinKeene]

He will get his award, it just won't be this year. Even people like Brianna Wu said he should get an award, just not this year, that this year should probably be for a woman.

And that's terrible. The current #metoo witchhunts shouldn't be rewarded this unfairly. I hope whatever woman gets the award shits in the GDC's face and publically says 'I dedicate this award to Bushnell who deserved to get it this year'. Would be a fantastic statement against the ridiculous current climate

 

[Garnox]

And that's terrible. The current #metoo witchhunts shouldn't be rewarded this unfairly. I hope whatever woman gets the award shits in the GDC's face and publically says 'I dedicate this award to Bushnell who deserved to get it this year'. Would be a fantastic statement against the ridiculous current climate

And honestly, if that woman decided to do that, it would make the haters respect the female community...or at least I’d hope so. But that’s just my opinion, no need to go spreading it around.

 

[Northeastmonk]

He will get his award, it just won't be this year. Even people like Brianna Wu said he should get an award, just not this year, that this year should probably be for a woman.

Who gets to decide who gets a reward and when? That's what is really confusing me. He does deserve a Pioneer award. It can be today, tomorrow, 6 months from now, or 10 years from now. What he did with his company was no small task.

You can't just take that away from him, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, or anyone who really paved the way in their field of technology.

I'm not here to stir or add something completely unrelated. But I bet if you would have asked the female staff that worked with him if Nolan deserves an award for Atari. I bet the vast majority would say yes. You can't study Video Game History without talking about Nolan Bushnell.

I bought that Video Game History book quite some time ago. I have a physical, digital, and audio copy. I love listening to the book and reading it from time to time. I get confused because people took passages and sentences from that book and starting taking control left and right. When a large majority of actual workers are still alive today. :/ It makes me think that video game awards are still bottom tier compared to other industry awards and hall of fames. Like the video game awards are basically being given away by someone's Twitter feed.

 

[TheGraykid]

And that's terrible. The current #metoo witchhunts shouldn't be rewarded this unfairly. I hope whatever woman gets the award shits in the GDC's face and publically says 'I dedicate this award to Bushnell who deserved to get it this year'. Would be a fantastic statement against the ridiculous current climate

In actual witchhunts women were being killed because they were suspected of being a mythological creature. I don't think that's a same as people who have acted foul, being exposed for acting foul, but it doesn't matter. We obviously don't have the same views on the current climate.

Who gets to decide who gets a reward and when? That's what is really confusing me. He does deserve a Pioneer award. It can be today, tomorrow, 6 months from now, or 10 years from now. What he did with his company was no small task.

You can't just take that away from him, Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, or anyone who really paved the way in their field of technology.

I'm not here to stir or add something completely unrelated. But I bet if you would have asked the female staff that worked with him if Nolan deserves an award for Atari. I bet the vast majority would say yes. You can't study Video Game History without talking about Nolan Bushnell.

I bought that Video Game History book quite some time ago. I have a physical, digital, and audio copy. I love listening to the book and reading it from time to time. I get confused because people took passages and sentences from that book and starting taking control left and right. When a large majority of actual workers are still alive today. :/ It makes me think that video game awards are still bottom tier compared to other industry awards and hall of fames. Like the video game awards are basically being given away by someone's Twitter feed.

Why didn't he get the award ten years ago?Maybe I have a differing viewpoint on this because I've lived through and been exposed to all the sports hall of fame (which this basically is) discussions. It's a yearly honouring of an influential gaming figure, seemingly at random. I think it's okay for people to say "this year shouldn't you take this thing into account?" grand boycotts were not planned. It's okay to talk about this. It's okay if you disagree.

 

[Journey]

In actual witchhunts women were being killed because they were suspected of being a mythological creature. I don't think that's a same as people who have acted foul, being exposed for acting foul, but it doesn't matter. We obviously don't have the same views on the current climate.



Why didn't he get the award ten years ago?Maybe I have a differing viewpoint on this because I've lived through and been exposed to all the sports hall of fame (which this basically is) discussions. It's a yearly honouring of an influential gaming figure, seemingly at random. I think it's okay for people to say "this year shouldn't you take this thing into account?" grand boycotts were not planned. It's okay to talk about this. It's okay if you disagree.

I hear what you're saying, but I don't agree that the award should be given to a woman... just because she's a woman during this climate, that would be just as bad as giving it to a random man, because, he's.. well... a man. Awards should be given to those who earn them. No preference should be given for their sex, male or female.

 

[Dunki]

In actual witchhunts women were being killed because they were suspected of being a mythological creature. I don't think that's a same as people who have acted foul, being exposed for acting foul, but it doesn't matter. We obviously don't have the same views on the current climate.



Why didn't he get the award ten years ago?Maybe I have a differing viewpoint on this because I've lived through and been exposed to all the sports hall of fame (which this basically is) discussions. It's a yearly honouring of an influential gaming figure, seemingly at random. I think it's okay for people to say "this year shouldn't you take this thing into account?" grand boycotts were not planned. It's okay to talk about this. It's okay if you disagree.

So you think it is totally fine to slander his legacy because of #metoo and some crazy people who have sometime in their life have read one book? I think you are on the same level as some feminists using the argument that it is not that big of a deal if innocent men also get caught into this because its for the greater good. And yes these arguments were made by "famous" feminist figures

 

[Northeastmonk]

In actual witchhunts women were being killed because they were suspected of being a mythological creature. I don't think that's a same as people who have acted foul, being exposed for acting foul, but it doesn't matter. We obviously don't have the same views on the current climate.



Why didn't he get the award ten years ago?Maybe I have a differing viewpoint on this because I've lived through and been exposed to all the sports hall of fame (which this basically is) discussions. It's a yearly honouring of an influential gaming figure, seemingly at random. I think it's okay for people to say "this year shouldn't you take this thing into account?" grand boycotts were not planned. It's okay to talk about this. It's okay if you disagree.

To me it sorta sounds like the debate about kids and sports. Should every kid get a medal for participating or does that teach them to not work as hard as the person who actually won. I feel like the GDC didn't want to step on anyone's toes and the foundation of what built the industry offended someone. It offended someone because the GDC kept going in the direction they did with choosing which person got the award.

You're right in why this award has not been given out before 2018? Why didn't they do this last year or the year before? I'm stuck wondering if this is about a selfish regime by those who work in the industry.

 

[KevinKeene]

In actual witchhunts women were being killed because they were suspected of being a mythological creature. I don't think that's a same as people who have acted foul, being exposed for acting foul, but it doesn't matter. We obviously don't have the same views on the current climate

Nowadays people's lives are ruined because some (insert curse word) make other people to appear is if they're monsters.

Sounds shockingly similiar.

 

[TheGraykid]

I hear what you're saying, but I don't agree that the award should be given to a woman... just because she's a woman during this climate, that would be just as bad as giving it to a random man, because, he's.. well... a man. Awards should be given to those who earn them. No preference should be given for their sex, male or female.

Well, there isn't really a public criteria for this award. Around 18 people have earned one so far. This isn't a specific thing for him. They appear to just look around at the industry and pick a person every year.

So you think it is totally fine to slander his legacy because of #metoo and some crazy people who have sometime in their life have read one book? I think you are on the same level as some feminists using the argument that it is not that big of a deal if innocent men also get caught into this because its for the greater good. And yes these arguments were made by "famous" feminist figures

Please show me where I said it's fine to slander his legacy.

To me it sorta sounds like the debate about kids and sports. Should every kid get a medal for participating or does that teach them to not work as hard as the person who actually won. I feel like the GDC didn't want to step on anyone's toes and the foundation of what built the industry offended someone. It offended someone that they kept going in the direction they did with choosing which person got the award.

You're right in why this award should have been given out way before 2018? Why didn't they do this last year or the year before? I'm stuck wondering if this is about a selfish regime by those who work in the industry.

This isn't a single award. It's given out every single year. I hope the below link helps.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Developers_Choice_Awards#The_Pioneer_Award

 

[Dunki]

Well, there isn't really a public criteria for this award. Around 18 people have earned one so far. This isn't a specific thing for him. They appear to just look around at the industry and pick a person every year.



Please show me where I said it's fine to slander his legacy.


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Game_Developers_Choice_Awards#The_Pioneer_Award

But this is what they did with these accusations. Honestly I would sue WU and Co for slandering ant take everything away they have. Only this way people seem to learn and understand that you should not do this bullshit. And this is not the first time WU did this.

 

[TheGraykid]

Nowadays people's lives are ruined because some (insert curse word) make other people to appear is if they're monsters.

Sounds shockingly similiar.

But, people's lives aren't being ruined. Weinstein isn't even going to jail. The women you're comparing them to were actually murdered, I don't know how you can compare that to people not getting jobs that they want. Also, the women who were accused of being witches didn't hurt anyone, unlike these men being accused who are actually doing dirt shit.

But this is what they did with these accusations. Honestly I would sue WU and Co for slandering ant take everything away they have. Only this way people seem to learn and understand that you should not do this bullshit. And this is not the first time WU did this.

Brianna Wu who said "Nolan Bushnell is clearly a deeply important person in video game history," she said. "He deserves to be honored for a lifetime achievement award without question. But in the year that the #MeToo movement is going on and we're having a reckoning about what women face in the workplace? It just seems really tone deaf by GDC."

Is that really slandering his legacy?

 

[Dunki]

Brianna Wu who said "Nolan Bushnell is clearly a deeply important person in video game history," she said. "He deserves to be honored for a lifetime achievement award without question. But in the year that the #MeToo movement is going on and we're having a reckoning about what women face in the workplace? It just seems really tone deaf by GDC."

Is that really slandering his legacy?

yes I would call this slander

 

[KevinKeene]

But, people's lives aren't being ruined. Weinstein isn't even going to jail. The women you're comparing them to were actually murdered, I don't know how you can compare that to people not getting jobs that they want. Also, the women who were accused of being witches didn't hurt anyone, unlike these men being accused who are actually doing dirt shit.

Unlesd you're rich, your life will be ruined. You're right, though, people aren't killed. How civilized :/

 

[TheGraykid]

yes I would call this slander

maaaaan, it's complicated. In our current standards what went on there wouldn't really be tolerated today, and it would be called sexual harassment. It was not sexual harassment at the time, to the people involved. This makes the story complicated.

Unlesd you're rich, your life will be ruined. You're right, though, people aren't killed. How civilized :/

This entire movement is centred on rich and powerful people, so excuse me for not feeling sorry for them. And if there's anything that we've learnt about the world, it's that, eventually, your fans will forgive you for everything. As a society, we should be focused on protecting people from predators, not lamenting how those predators may have to actually face up to their wrongdoings. You have so much sympathy for these predators, but I haven't seen you say a word about the people who were actually hurt here, the victims, whose lives were actually ruined.

 

[Dunki]

maaaaan, it's complicated. In our current standards what went on there wouldn't really be tolerated today, and it would be called sexual harassment. It was not sexual harassment at the time, to the people involved. This makes the story complicated.



.

No it is not. This was in total consent with the women there. These women did not feel uncomfortable at all. Harrassment means people feeling uncomfortable due to unwillingy flirting etc. You know what she said before this whole mess begann? The Game industry still needs their own #metoo moment. She fucking knew exactly what she did there. And she willingly lied to get this moment.

 

[TheGraykid]

No it is not. This was in total consent with the women there. These women did not feel uncomfortable at all. Harrassment means people feeling uncomfortable due to unwillingy flirting etc. You know what she said before this whole mess begann? The Game industry still needs their own #metoo moment. She fucking knew exactly what she did there. And she willingly lied to get this moment.

Not for everyone.

"Evelyn Seto, a graphic designer who inked Atari’s original logo and helped design the Atari 2600 and 5200 console’s box packaging, said she had “a couple negative experiences, but it was mostly innuendo,” before adding, “I don’t want to talk about it.”"

“It was kind of rough sometimes,” Bailey said in a 2012 interview. “It was a culture that I don’t think they were thinking, ‘There is one woman, we should modify our behavior for her sake’ ... I grew a thicker skin.”

These things happened, so where is the lie?

 

[Dunki]

Not for everyone.

"Evelyn Seto, a graphic designer who inked Atari’s original logo and helped design the Atari 2600 and 5200 console’s box packaging, said she had “a couple negative experiences, but it was mostly innuendo,” before adding, “I don’t want to talk about it.”"

“It was kind of rough sometimes,” Bailey said in a 2012 interview. “It was a culture that I don’t think they were thinking, ‘There is one woman, we should modify our behavior for her sake’ ... I grew a thicker skin.”

These things happened, so where is the lie?

Because WU did not even knew this person. SHE HAD NO evidence at all beside his comment in a fucking playboy magazine. Again she willingly lied to get "her" metoo moment in this industry she wanted a few days so badly in a podcast interview. How can you not see her intention?

 

[Havoc2049]

atari was kind of extreme, but a lot of companies changed when they realized they actually wanted to be able to hire from a wider pool of people. also, a lot of the atari stuff is basically illegal now

not everyone (that includes men) wants to work in a frat-house environment. all the casual drug use and sexual stuff might be fun for some people, but it turns away a lot of the more professional crowd

the real loss is really about all the talented people who didn't go into games or didn't stick with a career in the games industry because of its reputation.

What reputation is that? Atari had a great reputation back then and they hired some of the best and brightest young minds coming out of college back then. In many of the articles, books and documentaries I've read and watched, former Atari employees say that it was the best job they ever had and they loved working at Atari. The founders of Activision, Apple and many other tech companies started at Atari. Atari also employed some of the first female video game designers, such as Carol Shaw and Dona Bailey.

 

[Phoenix RISING]

Interesting article. It kinda raises more questions to me than it answers. Is it possible to properly evaluate the behaviour of people in the past when social norms can change so greatly over time?

None of that sounds appropriate for back then or for today.

 

[TheGraykid]

Because WU did not even knew this person. SHE HAD NO evidence at all beside his comment in a fucking playboy magazine. Again she willingly lied to get "her" metoo moment in this industry she wanted a few days so badly in a podcast interview. How can you not see her intention?

If we're just going to go back to the original comments, how can you not see that the stuff there sounds really really like sexual harassment?

 

[Cybrwzrd]

Not for everyone.

"Evelyn Seto, a graphic designer who inked Atari’s original logo and helped design the Atari 2600 and 5200 console’s box packaging, said she had “a couple negative experiences, but it was mostly innuendo,” before adding, “I don’t want to talk about it.”"

“It was kind of rough sometimes,” Bailey said in a 2012 interview. “It was a culture that I don’t think they were thinking, ‘There is one woman, we should modify our behavior for her sake’ ... I grew a thicker skin.”

These things happened, so where is the lie?

Sounds like a molehill, and not a mountain from those accounts.

 

[A Link to the Past]

And that's terrible. The current #metoo witchhunts shouldn't be rewarded this unfairly. I hope whatever woman gets the award shits in the GDC's face and publically says 'I dedicate this award to Bushnell who deserved to get it this year'. Would be a fantastic statement against the ridiculous current climate

A witch hunt is not something done in reply to actual reason behind it.

 

[wondermega]

I think the major issue with what Wu is doing here, is that she is very obviously reaching for something with a "where there is smoke, there's fire" attitude. Bushnell/Atari from decades ago feels like an easy target, and she is good at using specific language and has a good echo chamber of her own to rile up a commotion. She is very obviously using these people as pawns for her own political gains, and it feels not only disingenuous and slanderous, but it also can be damaging to the actual movement. That being said, looks like she is making the right moves to be a fine politician some day.
We are in a delicate climate now where people don't feel comfortable challenging these obvious moves, instead it's much easier to "ride the click-bait waves" for the press (say what you want about this Kotaku article, it still is exactly that). Meanwhile the rest of us can continue to tiptoe over the eggshells. Anyway there are a couple of people exercising semi-respectable journalism here, and most importantly there are numerous voices coming out trying to tell the real stories about what the scene was like back then. Perhaps we should quit trying to put words in their mouths.

 

[autoduelist]

I'm surprised there would be so much sex happening at a video game development company. I usually think of game developers as being nerdy and not very good at talking to women.

A little fact people like to forget lately -- people love to fuck. Love it! There's sex in backrooms all the time, and the vast majority is completely consensual. People have sex everywhere sex can be had. People you'd never expect to have sex have sex! Sex. Sex. Sex.

 

[Moneal]

In actual witchhunts women were being killed because they were suspected of being a mythological creature. I don't think that's a same as people who have acted foul, being exposed for acting foul, but it doesn't matter. We obviously don't have the same views on the current climate.

you are arguing the use of witch hunt? its use is perfectly fine in this usage. it doesn't just mean searching for witches. it has come to mean a search for monsters, in this case so called misogynists. I think it became quite popular during the whole MCarthy second red scare era.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/witch hunt

Notice the second definition and examples shown.

 

[A Link to the Past]

you are arguing the use of witch hunt? its use is perfectly fine in this usage. it doesn't just mean searching for witches. it has come to mean a search for monsters, in this case so called misogynists. I think it became quite popular during the whole MCarthy second red scare era.

https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/witch hunt

Notice the second definition and examples shown.

A reminder that being a communist and sexually harassing/assaulting women are two different things, and one is worse than the other. McCarthy's witch hunts are validly witch hunts because they apply a negative value to something that isn't (or shouldn't be) criminal.

 

[Moneal]

A reminder that being a communist and sexually harassing/assaulting women are two different things, and one is worse than the other. McCarthy's witch hunts are validly witch hunts because they apply a negative value to something that isn't (or shouldn't be) criminal.

Is Bushnell a harasser or assaulter of women?

 

[Cybrwzrd]

A reminder that being a communist and sexually harassing/assaulting women are two different things, and one is worse than the other. McCarthy's witch hunts are validly witch hunts because they apply a negative value to something that isn't (or shouldn't be) criminal.

I mean if you want to start making a comparison on who is worse, a follower of a moment that lead to the death of tens of millions more than even the Nazis, or a sexual harasser, I'd be hard pressed to make a decision. Now a communist vs an actual rapist, yes, I'm objectively sure a rapist is far worse. But I digress, that was a fun red herring.

 

[A.Romero]

I'm glad there is some follow up. In a perfect world, the testimonies of this people would make the GDC reconsider, alas...

One thing I have to recognize people who complained: They actually get involved and try to get shit done (even if their efforts are misguided and of the keyboard warrior nature). I respect Nolan and find this terribly unfair but I'm definitely not doing anything about it other than posting about it here.

Also, every time a topic like this surfaces people are quick to start discussing semantics and throw the classic Hitler argument around (or something similar). I think this only brings noise to the discussion and doesn't advance anything. We are not convincing either side for whatever reason. It's not worth it trying.

The main thing we can do as gamers to stop or promote this behaviour is hit them where it hurts them the most: hits on a website or sales of a product. I'm not giving Kotaku a single click. I'm not giving Wu even a single reply, let alone a follow. I'm definitely not supporting the GDC in any way from now on. I'm not spending money on companies that suscribe to behaviour I don't agree with such as censorship or bending to social media pressure. Sometimes I feel Japanese developers are the only ones that still have the courage to publish whatever they want, regardless of what *some* people think. Support those games and freedom in media will survive.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I mean if you want to start making a comparison on who is worse, a follower of a moment that lead to the death of tens of millions more than even the Nazis, or a sexual harasser, I'd be hard pressed to make a decision. Now a communist vs an actual rapist, yes, I'm objectively sure a rapist is far worse. But I digress, that was a fun red herring.

I've done a lot of reading about deaths related to communism, and I find it an interesting discussion. To that effect, is it possible, or even fair, to attribute deaths to capitalism with respect to actions that were intended to further and strengthen this? The whole problem with this "communism is responsible for deaths and worse than Nazism" is that you actually have to look at the context of these deaths. Were these deaths committed because of communism, or because of countries like China and Russia that are totalitarian states? I mean, historically Christians committed some pretty horrific atrocities, yet I don't look at a Christian as someone following a movement that lead to the death of millions of people. You're also speaking out of both sides of your face here. You cite McCarthyism as a valid use of the term witch hunt, but then you go on to suggest that the "hunt" had valid reasoning behind it - namely, that these people were followers of a belief system that has been used by countries that committed horrible atrocities in the past, and therefore they needed to be dealt with. It cannot both be a witch hunt and have a valid reason for it happening.

tl;dr The comparison is silly because one thing is illegal and the other is not.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I'm glad there is some follow up. In a perfect world, the testimonies of this people would make the GDC reconsider, alas...

One thing I have to recognize people who complained: They actually get involved and try to get shit done (even if their efforts are misguided and of the keyboard warrior nature). I respect Nolan and find this terribly unfair but I'm definitely not doing anything about it other than posting about it here.

Also, every time a topic like this surfaces people are quick to start discussing semantics and throw the classic Hitler argument around (or something similar). I think this only brings noise to the discussion and doesn't advance anything. We are not convincing either side for whatever reason. It's not worth it trying.

The main thing we can do as gamers to stop or promote this behaviour is hit them where it hurts them the most: hits on a website or sales of a product. I'm not giving Kotaku a single click. I'm not giving Wu even a single reply, let alone a follow. I'm definitely not supporting the GDC in any way from now on. I'm not spending money on companies that suscribe to behaviour I don't agree with such as censorship or bending to social media pressure. Sometimes I feel Japanese developers are the only ones that still have the courage to publish whatever they want, regardless of what *some* people think. Support those games and freedom in media will survive.

You can also pledge to not support people who sexually harass co-workers.

 

[KevinKeene]

I'm glad there is some follow up. In a perfect world, the testimonies of this people would make the GDC reconsider, alas...

One thing I have to recognize people who complained: They actually get involved and try to get shit done (even if their efforts are misguided and of the keyboard warrior nature). I respect Nolan and find this terribly unfair but I'm definitely not doing anything about it other than posting about it here.

Also, every time a topic like this surfaces people are quick to start discussing semantics and throw the classic Hitler argument around (or something similar). I think this only brings noise to the discussion and doesn't advance anything. We are not convincing either side for whatever reason. It's not worth it trying.

The main thing we can do as gamers to stop or promote this behaviour is hit them where it hurts them the most: hits on a website or sales of a product. I'm not giving Kotaku a single click. I'm not giving Wu even a single reply, let alone a follow. I'm definitely not supporting the GDC in any way from now on. I'm not spending money on companies that suscribe to behaviour I don't agree with such as censorship or bending to social media pressure. Sometimes I feel Japanese developers are the only ones that still have the courage to publish whatever they want, regardless of what *some* people think. Support those games and freedom in media will survive.

Exactly what I'm doing. Didn't buy Tokyo Mirage Sessions and Fire Emblem Fates because of what Nintendo did. Unless it's a must-have, I've had it with censorship. It's why I keep handing out praise for Xenoblade Chronicles 2, which wasn't censored in any meaningful way (there are some differences, yeah yeah). Treehouse would have butchered the game, so big thumbs up ton Nintendo of Europe.

 

[A.Romero]

You can also pledge to not support people who sexually harass co-workers.

Of course! I don't support sexual harassment. I apologize if my reply made it look that way.

What I don't support is stuff done under the pressure of groups through social media. For example: I don't support the decision the GDC made nor what recently happened to the Subnautica guy who got fired over tweets made a couple of years ago. I support having people that commit a crime to stand before trial and face the consequences if they are found guilty. I don't support people losing their jobs or awards over expressing opinions or because stuff they allegedly did but no legal process was applied.

What I fear is that every time this happens, people are getting more and more fearful about expressing their opinions. I'm Mexican, I'm what could be considered an oppressed minority (I don't subscribe to that but whatever). I might not like what some people express about Mexicans in generals through games or social media but I also recognize how important it is to be able to freely express our thoughts. Not because I want toxic thoughts to be communicated but because I don't think any person or group of people can actually decide what's good and what's not. If I support every single person's right to express themselves and say whatever they deem appropriate does it mean I support it? I hope not. If reading some nasty stuff about my people is the price to pay to protect one of the most basic freedoms we have, so be it.

If I feel some game is racist or some developer or publisher are racists I can make my own decision about if I want to support them or not. I don't want other people suppressing that freedom just to try to protect me from being confronted to mean or misguided people.

I'm aware of the struggles some individuals have to endure just to survive in society and their rights need to be protected and equality should be sought after but I don't think those causes should be seek at the cost of basic rights of other people. In my opinion that can only result in some kind of fascism at some point, not necessarily by the hand of the ones that originally were trying to protect a minority or an oppressed group. It's just that if we get used to having our mouths shut, even for a noble reason, at some point someone will abuse it and as a society we will simply be OK with it.