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Should Nintendo make a Super Smash Bros Melee remaster?
- Thread starter vicissitudes
- Start date
DICKS AHOY
Banned
That's pretty shit if that's really something they've started doing.
They're clearly aware of Project M's existence by now, especially since I think some of the Invitational's players were only noteworthy in the PM-scene.
SolarPowered
Member
I know Melee does better in some cases. I just didn't want to come off as another one of those imaginary but terrible Melee fans people in here are ranting about.
You asked a question, so I answered. I just gave you numbers to give you a rough idea of how well they've all done on a variety of install bases with unique features/add ons. I may not like Brawl, but if I looked at the numbers I'd have to say a Brawl remake/remaster would be just as justifiable. Melee doing as well (or better in some cases) as Sm4sh in tournament numbers isn't some decisive "point" working for or against either game.
Remastering it just to cater to a tournament scene is more ttouble than its worth, that work would be better put towards 4 dlc or on the next game. It would be best if they simply started offering GC games on the Wii U eShop, Melee and too many other games of that era have become too inaccessible.
Starwolf_UK
Member
Some things to mull over. Let's look at Wind Waker HD:
* Nintendo brag it took 6 months to complete with outsourcing for textures etc (pretty annoying its RRP is £10 more than it was on Gamecube then...)
* Glitches-wise it has many of the OOB bugs the Gamecube version had (tower of the gods for example) while some changed (the bird boss skip). It lacks super swimming and storage glitch but the E3 build demoed at Best Buy did have these glitches intact. Of course people than crashed the demo using it making it pretty hard to turn a blind eye to it.
* Some features didn't make it like Tingle Tuner, quite a few features were added like the Swift Sail, Miiverse, gyro controls and an improved endgame.
Wind Waker HD was in some ways a practice project for Nintendo. I now wonder what it would have been like if SSB Melee was picked for that instead.
Basically Nintendo may be able to get Melee running native on Wii U quickly assuming they retain similar code. Of course Melee has issues to consdier like HAL being the original developer and various copyrights (Pokemon Company, Itoi).
* Nintendo brag it took 6 months to complete with outsourcing for textures etc (pretty annoying its RRP is £10 more than it was on Gamecube then...)
* Glitches-wise it has many of the OOB bugs the Gamecube version had (tower of the gods for example) while some changed (the bird boss skip). It lacks super swimming and storage glitch but the E3 build demoed at Best Buy did have these glitches intact. Of course people than crashed the demo using it making it pretty hard to turn a blind eye to it.
* Some features didn't make it like Tingle Tuner, quite a few features were added like the Swift Sail, Miiverse, gyro controls and an improved endgame.
Wind Waker HD was in some ways a practice project for Nintendo. I now wonder what it would have been like if SSB Melee was picked for that instead.
Basically Nintendo may be able to get Melee running native on Wii U quickly assuming they retain similar code. Of course Melee has issues to consdier like HAL being the original developer and various copyrights (Pokemon Company, Itoi).
Snake is perfectly fine. They got rid of two bananas on Diddy for a good reason, it would be insane to bring back something similar for Snake. His side special got totally revamped to make up for the lack of grenades anyway.
I'm not sure if Nintendo has been confirmed to send C&Ds over it, but the mere threat of it has hurt its competitive presence. See: PM getting dropper from Apex, VGBC.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
Something has certainly made PM taboo among big tournaments and major streamers since Smash 4 released. Paragon LA was the only big tournament for almost the entire year to host PM, and the stream ended up being moved to Hitbox at the last minute because Twitch refused host it. This comes after 2014 where PM was a huge attraction at majors throughout the year.
Melee sold well on the GCN because it was the only Smash on GCN.
Melee DX on Wii U would be competing with two other Smash games, one on the same system while sporting less content (Melee compared to Smash 64 was a big improvement content wise). Bringing up past sales figures is rather pointless considering the environment a remaster would be released in is completely different.
Melee DX on Wii U would be competing with two other Smash games, one on the same system while sporting less content (Melee compared to Smash 64 was a big improvement content wise). Bringing up past sales figures is rather pointless considering the environment a remaster would be released in is completely different.
Did Wind Waker HD sell decently because it was the only Zelda on the Wii U?
Absolutely, with updated graphics (well just better textures and stuff on that level)
Uncompress some of the stuff on the disc and so on.
Lol.
Probably true.
Uncompress some of the stuff on the disc and so on.
Lol.
Probably true.
People saying melee should die already... I think football should die. They have newer version called basketball and its far superior.
Melee is so big part of my life that it feels like you're asking me to cut off my hand or somethinf. I've travelled to other countries and once to different continent to compete in tourneys. You just don't understand how much a person can love a single game.
Melee is so big part of my life that it feels like you're asking me to cut off my hand or somethinf. I've travelled to other countries and once to different continent to compete in tourneys. You just don't understand how much a person can love a single game.
What does Wind Waker HD have to do with this? Compare like with like. WWHD isn't even Nintendo's first remaster so I have no idea why it's being treated as the gospel example for what to expect from a remaster's sales. The GBA launched with a Super Mario Bros 2 remaster for example.
My issue with this comparison used as an argument against the popularity of Brawl is that the massive Wii install base didn't consist of only core gamers that would buy SSB. It's silly expecting Brawl to have an attach rate like Melee or Smash 4.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
It was more a rhetorical question in response to someone making out Melee was 'the biggest fighting game after Street Fighter', (which I guess is a broad enough statement to mean anything), but numbers-wise isn't really true at all. I've seen similar broad-stroke statements raised before to try and indirectly shit on the later games so I don't think there was much harm in arguing against it.
Cue several responses pointing out Melee was still a super successful on the GCN which I never disputed and suddenly I'm under the impression I've offended people thinking I'm trying to donwplay the games significance or something.
It was a joke dude.
I see your point about why they might not expect good sales when everyone already has a Smash Bros game for the system.
haha
I think the best comparison would be SFII HD Remix. It came out only a few months before SF4 did and broke several sales records. Melee is easily more relevant today than SF2 was in 2008 and I think it would easily hit a million if they launched an HD version with the NX.
They play very differently. Just add online play and call it a day. I don't think sales of Mario Kart 64 affected 8 much.
Attendance wise at large tournaments it IS the biggest fighting game after Street Fighter.
lmao, at best you'd get them hiring a few members at Nintendo, but that's not likely to happen.
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
For what it's worth, what I meant was clarified. The only game that consistently has biggest tournaments than Smash is Street Fighter. And Melee draws in more attendees than Smash 4 at most tournaments (EVO and Smash Con are the only two big ones I saw that had more Smash 4 entrants) making it the #2 game.
I don't really care about the newer Smash games, positive or negative. They exist, people play them and enjoy them, cool. It's not meant to be as slight against them any more than it's intended to be a slight against every FGC game that's isn't Street Fighter.
The point I was making is that people act like competitive Melee is so small it's irrelevant and Nintendo may as well pretend Melee players and tournaments don't exist. Clearly that isn't the case, even if it's a small minority among actual Smash sales.
RazielCuts
Member
Yea a port of it on the NX VC would be good, but a straight remake would be a waste of resources imo
FleetingFlowAir
Member
Melee available as Virtual Console? Sure. A remaster? No thank you. Besides, there would be nitpicking found just so that the competitive side would continue with the original version.
When it comes to competition, it's certainly true.
Acerac
Banned
Star Falcon
Member
Agreed with having it available as an emulated download on the VC. Definitely not a remaster... i loved Melee back then and i realise some people still play it but rather they support the current game and/or work on the next version instead. Have had just as much fun with Sm4sh as i did Melee and looking forward to more content for it, not revisiting a game almost 15 years old.
Why do people think arguments about Melee means GAF must hate Melee? Melee is a great game, no one is saying Melee should die except for a very few vocal minority.
For starters, its really REALLY rare for Nintendo to want to make Remakes. All Remakes so far have had an excuse or a mechanic behind them, lets look at the remakes of this generation
Star Fox 64 3D
Xenoblade Chronicles 3D
Wind Waker HD
Notice something in common? They are all Story Heavy and made to reconnect to a newer audience that might have missed it the first time around.
Melee is, from a Nintendo perspective, not a game that needs a remake. They don´t have to connect to a new audience, because that audience is on the Smash 3DS and Wii U version already.
That means than an HD remake of Smash would be exclusively for the benefit of the people who just want to play Melee in HD. So again, that audience does not want balancing and risking ruining their mains, they just want to be able to plug it on their HD TV. This is why a straight port to the Virtual Console would be for the best.
But then, the game would need to be optimized for it to work, that requires time and effort, and here is something no one has mentioned: It will require to renew the licenses of all the characters, price the game, market it, all that good stuff. That takes resources.
And Nintendo is very strict with its emulation, they´ll want the game to run exactly as it did on the GC. Also they would have to, of course, allow the GC Adapter to be compatible.
I mean, they COULD do it, and it would be totally awesome, but the question is, they SHOULD? Well, the first question is why should they? Are the pros (Extra money, selling more adapters) outweight the cons (licenses, porting, getting a proper GC emulation running)?
Also, I believe they´ll seek Sakurai to approve of the re-release, and knowing how much of a perfectionist he is, I think he maybe wouldn´t like it or would want to make a few fixes. Maybe they will release the PAL version for all regions since that was the last to be balanced, right?
For starters, its really REALLY rare for Nintendo to want to make Remakes. All Remakes so far have had an excuse or a mechanic behind them, lets look at the remakes of this generation
Star Fox 64 3D
Xenoblade Chronicles 3D
Wind Waker HD
Notice something in common? They are all Story Heavy and made to reconnect to a newer audience that might have missed it the first time around.
Melee is, from a Nintendo perspective, not a game that needs a remake. They don´t have to connect to a new audience, because that audience is on the Smash 3DS and Wii U version already.
That means than an HD remake of Smash would be exclusively for the benefit of the people who just want to play Melee in HD. So again, that audience does not want balancing and risking ruining their mains, they just want to be able to plug it on their HD TV. This is why a straight port to the Virtual Console would be for the best.
But then, the game would need to be optimized for it to work, that requires time and effort, and here is something no one has mentioned: It will require to renew the licenses of all the characters, price the game, market it, all that good stuff. That takes resources.
And Nintendo is very strict with its emulation, they´ll want the game to run exactly as it did on the GC. Also they would have to, of course, allow the GC Adapter to be compatible.
I mean, they COULD do it, and it would be totally awesome, but the question is, they SHOULD? Well, the first question is why should they? Are the pros (Extra money, selling more adapters) outweight the cons (licenses, porting, getting a proper GC emulation running)?
Also, I believe they´ll seek Sakurai to approve of the re-release, and knowing how much of a perfectionist he is, I think he maybe wouldn´t like it or would want to make a few fixes. Maybe they will release the PAL version for all regions since that was the last to be balanced, right?
Del Boca Vista
Banned
what's the point?
there's no point.
there's no point.
Fans of games that are unbalanced always use the "buff everyone else" argument, yet there's a reason why it pretty much never happens. What's more likely to happen? Toning down the more dominant characters (which aren't a ton in Melee) or basically re-balance the entire game? Not that buffs are not needed (especially in Melee), but it's not very realistic to expect any company to push every single character into OP territory and hoping for the best.
And can you imagine the outrage of angry Melee fans if they toned down, even slightly, characters like Fox or Sheik?
I generally agree, except that VC games aren't HD, they're the most barebones ports possible with no changes whatsoever. I think the best middle ground would be an enchanced port for the eShop with proper HD, true widescreen, and various bugfixes and quality of life updates like we've seen in Project M and 20XX. Stuff like l-cancel flashing, salty, runback, better default settings, stage freezing, etc.
DICKS AHOY
Banned
Melee still has Pichu, Ice Climbers and Young Link they could make amiibo's out of.
You mean like the PAL version?
No, I mean a big change in their game that hasn't happened since launch. How come you quoted KingBroly, yet that's my post?
I think one of the things most fans were awaiting from a new SSB game was balance patches, especially after Brawl.
I don't want to do too much research, but I'm pretty sure Melee and Smash 4 are about even when it comes to pulling entrant numbers. Sometimes one game has more, sometimes the other. CEO for example also had more Smash 4 entrants.
Acerac
Banned
No, I mean a big change in their game that hasn't happened since launch. How come you quoted KingBroly, yet that's my post?
Based on the way the change characters in Sm4sh and the Pal version it seems unlikely that would happen.
You're right, and now that they're here, it seems Nintendo is letting the community figure out how to fight top tiers for the most part. Granted, since Melee is more established the changes may be larger, but it seems against their philosophy to make any sweeping changes.
But proper HD requires textures, new models for all characters... and I am reading all you want to add, and that requires time, effort, and more important of all, money. Project M and 20XX work because they are fan projects, people don´t expect them to be perfect. An official Nintendo release would require to be perfectly polished in every way and that is extra dev time that could be used for the actual game Nintendo cares about, Wii U/3DS.
A port would just a upscaled version that is the same game but without lagging on a HD TV, that requires far less effort and could be cost-effective.
What you are suggesting its not a middle ground, at all, it is for all purposes a remake.
Pokemaniac
Member
Virtual Console games are not ports, they are the original games in an emulator. Considering Smash 64 released on Wii VC, I don't think there are any issues from Sakurai or Nintendo about VC releases for Smash. The only place I see real issues coming up have to do with legal stuff (for Melee, that's probably mostly to do with Rare stuff).
chaosblade
Unconfirmed Member
The ideal target for balancing Melee characters is among the existing top tiers, I don't think everyone should be Fox though. Like I said, if you just make the good characters shitty the game might be better balanced, but nobody is going to want to play it because it won't be fun.
It wouldn't happen because it's more work. That's why I'd rather see a VC release or the like and not a remaster. If a remaster comes out, mark my words it's going to suck.
Dusk Soldier
Member
The hardcore melee crowd will not like a remaster because little things here and there will be changed that will "ruin" the game as far as they're concerned.
The casuals don't give two fucks about melee, and why would they want to go back to a game with less characters, no online, no final smashes etc...
Nintendo has literally no reason to do this. none.
Am I not understanding something? Melee launched with two separate "builds", the NTSC and PAL builds. How does that have anything to do with what I'm saying? Balancing Melee would make big changes on games with meta-games that are pretty old.
Oh yeah, that is my mistake, I keep using Port and VC rerelease as the same thing, sorry about that.
Point is a VC release would make far more sense than a remake.
I'm not saying the meta wouldn't change. I am saying that balancing from the bottom up by buffing lower tiers wouldn't have the disastrous results you're claiming. There would have to be absurd buffs for the meta to be changed for the worse and all of Nintendo's balancing history shows that they play it safe. If they ported over just a fraction of the buffs from SD Remix, it would be a drastic improvement to the game's balance without touching any of the top characters.
Whoops!No, I mean a big change in their game that hasn't happened since launch. How come you quoted KingBroly, yet that's my post?
The PAL version was released after the NTSC versions and had some major balance changes like Fox's up-smash being nerfed. It wasn't adopted mainly because the Smash tournament community was largest in the US and only had access to the NTSC version.
Professor Beef
Banned
Nintendo started sponsoring some and promoting all of the big Smash tournaments, but the tradeoff was that no Project M could be streamed or promoted.
This would be worth happening just to upset people.