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Should we boycott Shadow Complex?

nicemarmut

Neo Member
I find it pretty frustrating that many of the people posting here can be so passionate about buying or not buying a fifteen dollar game. If you aim to do either of those things to affect the status of anyone's civil rights, I can pretty much guarantee that marching in a protest or writing your congressman or discussing your beliefs with people that will actually listen to them (i.e. people who interact with you outside of an internet forum) will have more affect than buying or not buying(?) even TWO copies of the game.

I mean, I get "voting with your dollar" as far as affecting matters within the video game industry, such as what sort of games are made, a game being entertainment that is usually made by a number of people; but tying your purchase to the outside popularity or effectiveness of the beliefs of one person involved in the production of a game (even if that person is a part of more powerful organizations) is really irritating. This sort of reminds me of some of my friends who disapprove of my buying used CDs because none of my money (instead of very little of my money?) goes to the artist, that sort of sycophantic attitude, but the converse. If you want to support or discourage the beliefs of the artist, especially beliefs whose methods do not so much as budge at any influence of the video games industry, you should do so by discussing THOSE BELIEFS DIRECTLY or affecting real and direct change, not discussing whether or not you are going to buy this game or the affect that your fifteen dollars will have once it is divided up into fractions of cents.
 

Shogun

Member
duckroll said:
I think this is the problem though, how do we know for sure that they don't share Card's views? I'm not talking about say, the employees working at Chair who worked hard on the game. I'm loving the game, and I acknowledge their hard work. But one thing I think would be good to discuss is that there IS a big questionable relationship between the founders of Chair and Card. There's a personal relationship there and since they collaborated to create the world of Empire, which is.... extremely right-wing batshit insane, it's hard to believe that the founders of Chair share NO common views on many of the things expressed there.

Does that make more sense?

The issue is where the money is going. If I had substantial reason to believe chair would fund anti-gay organizations as a company I wouldn't purchase their product. Also if I knew Orson Scott Card was actively drawing royalties from each sale of the game, again I might be more inclined to not purchase the game even if simply giving him money is a level removed from funding anti-gay organizations. The problem is that neither of these things have been substantiated reasonably at all, other than proving a good relationship between OSC and chair's founders. They are multiple mormons for gay rights and gay marriage and assuming that if they are mormon or are his friends they give to anti-gay organizations is just not right. There are proven examples of anti-gay legislation and discrimination out there that could use support from us like the Anchorage mayor veto or many others such as this, or the gay marriage battle coming up in Maine. Why not donate to something we are sure is going to help the GLBT cause, rather than boycotting something with an unproven link?
 

Toby

Member
I was thinking, I bet this guy says to boycott it because of Card.
Then I thought, wait, I'm in gaming discussion, couldn't possibly be that.

For a minute there I actually thought you had a valid point.
 

woodypop

Member
sn00zer said:
Well thats it.

Games infinitely more controversial or racial insensitive than something made by Orson Scott Card:
Call of Duty 4
Crysis
America's Army
Assassin's Creed
Grand Theft Auto

You want original games? But hey cant be writtend by people you find morally objectionably? Well your going to have a lot less original games and stories in the future.
And I would have no problem with people making the decision to not purchase any of those games based on their own personal beliefs/convictions.

Like I said before, we all choose our battles. Sometimes they align with others, sometimes they don't.
 
duckroll said:
I'm Catholic. As far as GAF goes, I believe I'm pretty much a minority group too. It would be wrong to describe people who have something against OSC as Mormonphobes or Christianphobes because it is not his religion people are against, but his actions and his outspoken opinions.

Ha, I'm Catholic too.

But isn't it OSC's religion that motivates his public opposition to SSM? I recall reading somewhere that he started speaking out against SSM after talking with his minister. And from what I've noticed, there seems to be a facile conflation between the private views of OSC and Mormons in general, ie the links to websites that list Mormon-owned businesses to boycott.

And since this was pointed out to me, the opposite does indeed apply: It's also wholly inaccurate to call someone 'anti-gay/homophobe' simply because they don't support SSM.
 

mollipen

Member
sn00zer said:
I cant imagine most people on this board not owning these games.

Only game on that list I own is Grand Theft Auto.

And, man... this has nothing to do with the guy's opinions, at least in my case, so saying those games have "controversial storylines" is meaningless. It has everything to do with him actually using time, money, and effort to help ban gay marriage. He can hate "them damn gays" all he wants, but when he starts actively trying to keep others from having rights, then yes, I've got a problem with the guy.
 
shidoshi said:
My question is more what Chair's whole position on the matter is. If they're a group of people who just have an unfortunate connection, I don't see any reason they should suffer because of Card. If they're attachment to Card is more than that, and money they're making may also be going to support the anti-gay movement, then things get tougher.

This is a problem I'm having too. At first blush, I was like "well, just because OSC is involved doesn't necessarily mean anything. The game's story isn't a ludicrous political diatribe like the novel and they even hired Peter David to write it, so the Chair guys probably don't really care and just wanted a game about blowing shit up, while OSC went in the radical direction himself because he's a loon."

But if the founders of the company donate to NOM that's very different.

scitek said:
Insinuating they're crazy and should have no right to express their opinions on things like gay marriage is just as oppressive as their views on gay marriage.

What? No one here wants them to be unable to express their opinion. In fact, I would suggest that most people who are considering not buying the game are extremely glad that the freedom of speech in America has allowed these people to express their opinions so that we can make informed decisions about buying their products.

I don't understand the idea that expressing a hateful idea is "free speech," but encourage people to make purchasing decisions based on knowledge of that expression is "oppression." They're both free speech.
 

Joei

Member
TitaniumGroceries said:
Thanks to this thread, I am buying a copy of "Shadow Complex" for myself, and two for some friends.


Holy crap, I didn't even know about this game. This thread caused me to watch some videos. Definitely going to buy this game now!
 

scitek

Member
EmCeeGramr said:
Not supporting their opinion by choosing to boycott their products is nowhere near the same as being of the opinion that certain groups don't have rights. False equality.

You're right, but I wasn't really talking about the boycott. I meant people that think the guy shouldn't be allowed to write books or speak about whatever he believes are just as bad as him saying gay's shouldn't have the right to marry. Both are oppressive.
 

TheFallen

Member
You have the right to boycott and voice your opinion, as does OSC. Disagreeing to his views is part of your given freedoms. But don't you find it unnecessary to boycott a product made by hundreds of employees (artists, programmers, marketing, hell even voice actor - Nolan North), an action may tarnish their reputation for a single man's opinion? How does that send the right message? You should be publicly skewer OSC's cause, NOT a video game that he was involved in with many others. You're hurting many more innocent people in the process by boycotting the game.

Also, where's the Seinfeld revolving door gif when you need it? There's a half dozen bans littered throughout this thread already.
 

pvpness

Member
No thanks. I like OSC stories even though I don't agree with many of his personal opinions.

I do hope that one day all of your states can be as progressive as mine... Iowa.
 

woodypop

Member
nicemarmut said:
I mean, I get "voting with your dollar" as far as affecting matters within the video game industry, such as what sort of games are made, a game being entertainment that is usually made by a number of people; but tying your purchase to the outside popularity or effectiveness of the beliefs of one person involved in the production of a game (even if that person is a part of more powerful organizations) is really irritating. This sort of reminds me of some of my friends who disapprove of my buying used CDs because none of my money (instead of very little of my money?) goes to the artist, that sort of sycophantic attitude, but the converse. If you want to support or discourage the beliefs of the artist, especially beliefs whose methods do not so much as budge at any influence of the video games industry, you should do so by discussing THOSE BELIEFS DIRECTLY or affecting real and direct change, not discussing whether or not you are going to buy this game or the affect that your fifteen dollars will have once it is divided up into fractions of cents.
Why not do both?
 

Ettie

Member
nincompoop said:
Apparently you can boycott OSC and still play the full game for free, legally, by exploiting a glitch in the demo. Everyone wins!


Link is still hot, still points to exploit. Get that shit out please.
 

Acosta

Member
Y2Kev said:
How can you possibly believe this?

Because I don't think people is so easily manipulated as some people think, no matter how many millions you put on a campaign.

People were not convinced by Orson that gay marriage was bad, they thought it from the beginning. Campaigns and marketing are like hypnosis, they don't work if you don't want to at some level. If you want to finger points for the prop being passed, you should look much more deep inside to understand it. Of course, saying it´s all fault of Olson Scott it´s an easier position.

In Spain we have a lot of crazy nuts that say gay marriage is bad. We had psychologists that said it was a mental illness, and furious and very influential people of the catholic church making frontal attacks to it. What happened? gay marriage got approved and it´s completely legal.

Society advances for itself, when yours is ready to accept certain things, people will vote in another direction. But the crazy people will be always there, and it´s far too easy to blame them of everything.
 

Coins

Banned
squicken said:
You'll have to forgive me, as I'm not as well read on such things as you are. But he did not say homosexuality is dysfunctional, he called it a "reproductive dysfunction."

So is calling homosexual sex reproductively dysfunctional hate speech? Just plain wrong? Is it that reasonable minds cannot disagree as to whether homosexual sex is reproductively functional?

I want to very clear here. I saw a post that was far less inflammatory than many others, a post that even called for cooler heads. And I just want to know exactly what line was crossed so I can change the content of my future posts if necessary.

Its only a "reproductive dysfunction" if two people of the same sex keeping fucking each other in hopes of producing a child. Guess what? Thats not happening!
 

FoneBone

Member
Because some of you don't seem to be reading the thread:
duckroll said:
But one thing I think would be good to discuss is that there IS a big questionable relationship between the founders of Chair and Card. There's a personal relationship there and since they collaborated to create the world of Empire, which is.... extremely right-wing batshit insane, it's hard to believe that the founders of Chair share NO common views on many of the things expressed there.
No, it's not about the stances of everyone associated with the game. But it's not just about Card, either. It is hardly a stretch to conclude that the Mustard brothers are supportive of many of Card's political views.
 
Wow, that must be the most stupid OP I've ever read in this forum. And I've been fallowing it for years. SC is a great game and deserves to be bought, who cares about the devs politic opinion?
 

Mooreberg

Member
TheExodu5 said:
So I can download Winzip, and search for a cracked serial, and that wouldn't be considered piracy?

It could probably be considered time travel if you are using WinZip. Yikes.

OK everyone back to embittered mudslinging.
 
bonesmccoy said:
But isn't it OSC's religion that motivates his public opposition to SSM?

That's not really a defense. People choose to interpret their religious beliefs in different ways based on their own conscience. Some may reject SSM "personally" but not choose to fight against it on a societal level; others may decide that the church's rejection of gay rights is mistaken and oppose it. OSC, on the other hand, has chosen to dedicate his wealth almost solely to preventing gays from gaining access to a legal right commonly enjoyed by straight people.

And since this was pointed out to me, the opposite does indeed apply: It's also wholly inaccurate to call someone 'anti-gay/homophobe' simply because they don't support SSM.

No, it really isn't. If you oppose granting legal rights to gays then you are indeed holding an anti-gay belief. If there were people in here in favor of stripping legal rights from Mormons I think you could call that an anti-Mormon position, or similarly if someone suggested that every Mormon is anti-gay, but otherwise the two things are not at all comparable.

Acosta said:
People were not convinced by Orson that gay marriage was bad, they thought it from the beginning.

Even a superficial examination of the huge public opinion swings that occurred during the campaign on Proposition 8 is enough to expose this as, at best, a hugely naive belief.
 

Iknos

Junior Member
Princess Skittles said:
Post #300, impressive.

I should win a prize...like a copy of Shadow Complex!!!

FoneBone said:
He did, and he's pretty vocally liberal. So go figure.

So it's likely the OSC isn't getting a lot of money from this.

Downloadable titles on XBLA sell around 100K if they are decently received. It goes up to 500K for well received titles.

So say it sells very well and sells 500K and makes $7.5 mil in revenue. MS takes 70% of that and Chair gets $2.25 mil. The cost of the UT3 license is around $500K right? So that's $1.75 mil for Chair. After expenses I can't see OSC getting a whole lot of money. Especially when he DIDN'T write the dialogue.

Coins said:
Wrong. His hate speech motivated people to go vote against something they dont understand and suddenly fear.

OSC said this about gay people.

I see the same sort of stuff in the OT side and people don't consider it hate speech.
 
TheExodu5 said:
So I can download Winzip, and search for a cracked serial, and that wouldn't be considered piracy?
If you download a commercial product for free from someone who does not hold any legal rights to distribute it then that would be piracy, but I don't see what that has to do with this situation where you are downloading a free demo from Microsoft's servers and not modifying it in any way.
 
Boycotting a game because the story is related to a guy's story who happens to be a homophobe?

He's also an amazing author, I'll have you know. Perhaps we should erase any good things said about Washington in the history books because he owned slaves?

Is there such a thing as heterophobia? You know, drawing conclusions from sources that don't logically have any connection?
 
RockmanWhore said:
Wow, that must be the most stupid OP I've ever read in this forum. And I've been fallowing it for years. SC is a great game and deserves to be bought, who cares about the devs politic opinion?
Public opinion =/= donating millions to strip people of rights.
 
sn00zer said:
Well thats it.

Games infinitely more controversial or racial insensitive than something made by Orson Scott Card:
Call of Duty 4
Crysis
America's Army
Assassin's Creed
Grand Theft Auto

You want original games? But hey cant be writtend by people you find morally objectionably? Well your going to have a lot less original games and stories in the future.

That's funny. I don't own, nor have any interest in any of those games. Not that they have any relevance to this thread.
 
RockmanWhore said:
Wow, that must be the stupidest OP I've ever read in this forum. And I've been fallowing it for years. SC is a great game and deserves to be bought, who cares about the devs politic opinion?
I do.

And you can go to hell for saying it's a stupid position to associate an entirely optional entertainment product with the people who made it. Straight to hell.
 

Big-E

Member
RockmanWhore said:
Wow, that must be the most stupid OP I've ever read in this forum. And I've been fallowing it for years. SC is a great game and deserves to be bought, who cares about the devs politic opinion?

Make it stop, please make it stop. This thread is just a complete cluster fuck of ignorance.
 

nicemarmut

Neo Member
woodypop said:
Why not do both?
Please do, but if you do, I have a feeling that the discussion of the game's and the creator's dollars and cents will seem pretty insignificant compared to any actual influence on opinions.
 

cuyahoga

Dudebro, My Shit is Fucked Up So I Got to Shoot/Slice You II: It's Straight-Up Dawg Time
I thought I was the only person not buying the game for this reason.

And to a lesser extent, the game doesn't interest me that much.
 

TheExodu5

Banned
nincompoop said:
If you download a commercial product for free from someone who does not hold any legal rights to distribute it then that would be piracy, but I don't see what that has to do with this situation where you are downloading a free demo from Microsoft's servers and not modifying it in any way.

You can download a free 30 day trial of Winzip and crack it by entering a serial key. It's piracy, even though you're not stealing any bits from Winzip's developers. You're not modifying files either. You're just entering a set of key strockes that magically gives you the paid version.

In my eyes, it doesn't matter whether or not it's legal. It's morally wrong, and you're circumventing the need to pay for the game.
 

Cartman86

Banned
What a douche. I always heard weird things about him (being a Mormon is one of those things).

EDIT: Wouldn't boycott though. Until I see someone heavily involved in the game using the money made from the sales to push this anti-gay agenda I will continue to buy their products.
 
Epic Tier 3 Engineer said:
Oh my God. Boycotting a game because the story is related to a guy's story who happens to be a homophobe?

He's also an amazing author, I'll have you know. Perhaps we should erase any good things said about Washington in the history books because he owned slaves?

Is there such a thing as heterophobia? You know, drawing conclusions from sources that don't logically have any connection?
Is Washington still alive and rallying for/funding the support of slavery?

Is he?

Please answer, I am extremely curious whether I should give Washington money knowing full well he supports the enslavement of people.
 
EmCeeGramr said:
His popularity is not due to his homophobia. Regardless of your opinion of him.

ShockingAlberto said:
Is Washington still alive and rallying for/funding the support of slavery?

Is he?

Please answer, I am extremely curious whether I should give Washington money knowing full well he supports the enslavement of people.
If it's a matter of principle, he's rotten scum because of this sole fact (not even considering his body of work), correct? Money has nothing to do with it.
 
I had never heard of Card until a few years ago. I didn't have warm fuzzy feelings from reading Ender's Game as a kid like a lot of others did. So his contribution to any project didn't matter to me. Then he entered my peripheral vision with the big uproar over his anti-gay remarks and that's pretty much all I know him for. Now those choice quotes the OP showed I do agree with, I'm not a Mormon or even a Christian, and I love Metroid gameplay so I'm gonna pick this up. Ba da boom.

And I totally agree that people should refuse to buy products that people they disagree with profit from. As an example, I refuse to support anything by Joss Whedon, because I see him as a guy in denial that he was born with lady parts instead of man parts like people in this thread see Card as a homophobe. Works both ways and I think it's great. At some point, at least for me, you gotta pick your battles. I probably don't agree with the politics of 90% of game developers or actors or directors, but I'm not going to let it stop me from enjoying the medium.
 

Teknoman

Member
Didnt stop people from reading/buying Lovecraft books till this day...and he seemed to be pretty racist.

Now if it was in the game, then I could see a cause for outrage.
 
Epic Tier 3 Engineer said:
He's also an amazing author, I'll have you know.

Was. :(

Mercury Fred said:
Public opinion =/= donating millions to strip people of rights.

This is the distinction that's important for me. The issue that really bothers me here is the potential that the money I spend on Shadow Complex just turns around and half gets donated to NOM. That's the distinction I see from, I dunno, any of the other numerous products made by creators who I might disagree with but who haven't actively positioned themselves as one of the foremost public advocates of a position I find actively loathsome.
 
GAF is getting really good at these banner ads :lol

lmao.jpg
 

TheKurgan

Member
I am all for equal rights but boycotting Shadow Complex is a lame idea. Great games should be bought so the guys who made the game have money to make more great games.
 

Vinci

Danish
Lateraleye said:
I probably don't agree with the politics of 90% of game developers or actors or directors, but I'm not going to let it stop me from enjoying the medium.

This is true for me as well, but hey, the OP has a right to do this if he likes.
 

Cartman86

Banned
Lateraleye said:
I had never heard of Card until a few years ago. I didn't have warm fuzzy feelings from reading Ender's Game as a kid like a lot of others did. So his contribution to any project didn't matter to me. Then he entered my peripheral vision with the big uproar over his anti-gay remarks and that's pretty much all I know him for. Now those choice quotes the OP showed I do agree with, I'm not a Mormon or even a Christian, and I love Metroid gameplay so I'm gonna pick this up. Ba da boom.

And I totally agree that people should refuse to buy products that people they disagree with profit from. As an example, I refuse to support anything by Joss Whedon, because I see him as a guy in denial that he was born with lady parts instead of man parts like people in this thread see Card as a homophobe. Works both ways and I think it's great. At some point, at least for me, you gotta pick your battles. I probably don't agree with the politics of 90% of game developers or actors or directors, but I'm not going to let it stop me from enjoying the medium.

Seriously @ the Joss Whedon thing? Or did I miss a joke?
 

xbhaskarx

Member
Chris Remo said:
My point with that was not to suggest that all games developed by Mormons should be boycotted. It was simply in response to suggestions that the Chair founders were not on board with Card's stance.

As I've said in this thread countless times, there's a difference between people who have their own opinions that are different to mine, which is fine, and people who actively and publicly and vehemently work to support things I find morally objectionable.

So because "principle figures" at Chair are "also Mormon" you believe Chair founders are on board with Card's stance on gay marriage? Again, if that's good enough for you that would apply to most Muslim and many Christian developers, right?

Is your second paragraph about Card or about Chair? If it's the latter are you basing it on anything other than that they are 1) Mormon and 2) work with Card? Does that mean they actively and vehemently work to support things you find morally objectionable?
 
TheKurgan said:
I am all for equal rights but boycotting Shadow Complex is a lame idea. Great games should be bought so the guys who made the game have money to make more great games.
Unless the guys who made the games also give money to organizations like the National Organization for Marriage. Which, given the information in this thread, is not all that unlikely.
 
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