Support NeoGAF

[MattKeil]

I don't know your situation, but it's possible that you don't give a damn about this cause because you have no involvement in it. It's easy to brush things aside when they don't affect you. For the people on here, and elsewhere, to whom the rights of homosexuals is a big deal, it makes perfect sense that they might not want their money going to such people.

What about all the other games they've bought and may buy that possibly have homophobic activists in high positions on the dev team? If someone is going to take this (in)action against Shadow Complex, they'd better be ready to research the social and political views of everyone in charge of every other game they ever buy. Or are we only being socially conscious when people with these viewpoints are being shoved right in our face?

I really wanted Shadow Complex, but now I may have to re-consider. Yes, fine, I'm sure EVERYTHING can be linked to something bad. But buying a pair of shoes when I need shoes, and not supporting a piece of entertainment that I'll get along just fine without are two totally different things.

True, which is why the above comparison to other game purchases is the accurate one, not the shoe comparison. If game purchases are suddenly going to be a moral choice due to OSC's viewpoints, then all game purchases must be as well. Ignorance of a situation is not an excuse for an immoral act. If Card's admittedly abhorrent opinions are the reason for someone's refusal to purchase Shadow Complex (not boycott - it's only a boycott if you can buy an alternate Shadow Complex from a totally different company that will not benefit the makers of the regular Shadow Complex - what people are proposing here is simply not buying a game), then they are now morally obligated to research the political and moral viewpoints of the makers behind every game they purchase.

It's an absurd notion, which is why I think a lot of people are reacting to the suggestion of not buying Shadow Complex because of Card's opinions with such derision. The only way it's morally consistent to do this and subsequently not research the opinions of the creators of other game purchases you're considering is if it's not Card's homophobic ideas that bother you, but the mere fact that he is outspoken about them. That's a very different thing, and not what most people supporting a non-purchase campaign are suggesting in this thread.

 

[Screaming Fist]

Oh who gives a shit. It's a free country, if he wants to be a homophobe it's his right. Just like it's my right to not care.

 

[Ogrekiller]

This thread is probably the worst thing I've ever read on GAF. Period.

On a side note I bought Shadow Complex day 1.

Eh, you haven't been in OT

The Gypsy thread was... something else.

 

[Rocket Punch]

Tolerance people.

Go enjoy a good game.

:lol you did not just say that!

I tolerate bigotry! Let's play!

 

[Undeux]

What specifically made this post ban-worthy?

5. Ignorance (Hate to break it to everyone but like it or not Homosexuality IS a reproductive dysfunction. This is SCIENCE not Opinion)

that.

 

[Giolon]

How about the OP boycotts the game and we all play it and have fun?

 

[Shogun]

I'll start this by saying that I don't agree with Card's politics in the least. That said, I don't think a boycott really sends the right message.

Given that basically none of his political views are expressed in this game (despite the slant of the universe as a whole), and given that the primary beneificiaries of the sales of this game are Epic and Chair, not Card, a boycott serves primarily to demonstrate that you hate Card because of his political views, while doing little to advance those views yourself. You're attacking the person, but not really the message.

The little irony (I hope I'm not misusing that word) here is that the whole absurd concept of the Empire books rests on the premise that the opposite sides of these political debates do hate each other because of their political views. When we act in such a manner where we attack the arguer without attacking their views, we cement that false assumption, and we entrench the very attitudes we disagree with. We prevent the possibility of reasonable debate and discovery. As a result, I think it's important that any protest of this sort is tied directly to the policies it supports, as opposed to the destruction of its opponents (for a Civil Rights Movement example, it's like boycotting the bus system because it practices discriminatory seating policies, ending the boycott when those policies are repealed. The attitudes of the drivers or employees of the bus company may not have changed, but their policies have, which is what is important).

I don't think there's anything wrong with boycotting the works of his that express things you disagree with (the Empire novels, for instance), but this game doesn't seem to be the right target. I think that the suggestion given in your OP about donating a few dollars to a gay rights organization is a very sensible alternative, and I suspect it will do much more to help the cause you believe in than boycotting Card's work would hurt it.

Post of the fucking thread right here.

 

[drakesfortune]

I've just noticed a couple of bans in this thread... and I'm out.

Same here. One final point, if you really want to get up and do something about anti-gay commerce, then you could stop buying gas for your car. Most of it comes from the middle east and countries that are not only anti-gay marriage, but they kill gays, and they also don't like women's rights so much. So there's a bigger better fight to take on. All you have to do is sacrifice buying gas and riding in gasoline propelled vehicles.

 

[FateBreaker]

Because he is actively fighting to stop homosexual couples from having the right to get married, and some people, I dunno, think that's a pretty fucked up thing to do?

I think it's a pretty fucked up thing to do. And Card is dumb (except for Ender's Game, oh dear God). Maybe I will ban his upcoming book or something, something which he primarily created.

Shadow Complex is different. Other people who probably don't share Card's views worked very hard on this game, and it's simply not right to ban the whole game when their is one bad apple in the team. It's like when I was in elementary school, ugh, and one FREAKIN kid would do something stupid, so the WHOLE CLASS had to miss recess. It's the same thing here! The 90% other people deserve the money. Try to ban Card in other, more significant ways.

Disclaimer: OK, banning is happening. Not exactly sure why. But just to be clear: I do think that this whole Card thing is screwed up, but banning Shadow Complex is not the way to go.

 

[KittyKittyBangBang]

What if it turned out the OSC was also against furries?

I would still play the game because it kicks ass (im also not into furries BTW, just like that pic because its fucking creepy)

Why should I give a shit what his motives/agenda is. Who the hell am i to judge?

If he were going around lynching homosexuals that would be one thing, but hes not.

Why is he not entitled to his opinions and beliefs?

 

[scitek]

What specifically made this post ban-worthy?

His admitting to not being a hardcore lefty. Watch out!

 

[Sweep]

It seems a little harsh to punish the entire dev team because one man has backwards views on homosexuality. I mean, homophobia is hardly a theme within the game, and the profits made from Shadow Complex aren't being used to purge the world of homosexuality.

Or are they?

 

[Grecco]

I thought Peter David a.k.a Mr. Young Justice/Hulk/X-Factor wrote the story?

But its set in the "World" of OSCs Empire. So it must mean we are supporting Homophobes, and not Peter David.


Oh and it seems David Jaffe and Geoff Keighly had dinner/are friends with the creators of Shadow Complex. We should boycott them next :/

 

[diddlyD]

calling people who don't condone homosexuality on a moral basis 'homophobes' is ad hominem, and just weakens your argument. look the word up if you don't know what it means.

 

[StuBurns]

I'm really saddened to hear this stuff. Homophobia aside (as disgusting, and actually very odd as it is), all I've heard is the game is great, lots of positive feedback and just because someone who is a cockhole will benefit from it, doesn't seem enough to warrant all the good people who worked on being screwed over.

In really big next-gen projects 300 people isn't an insane number anymore, I think we're all buying games that have benefitted really horrible people.

I'm really divided, it's not an issue for me personally as I don't have 360 anymore. But there's been some great posts so far.

 

[Somnid]

If my local plumber put out a sign that said "Gays don't deserve normal people marriage rights" and/or actively gave money supporting that cause, I would find a different plumber.

But according to people on GAF, that is an insane thing to do because why should you mix politics and plumbing

I suppose that just comes from growing up with the idea of a wholistic identity. It's not outrageous to think that but if you look at it you are overriding relevant qualities with arbitrary ones.

 

[kadotsu]

You know what companies call people who complain but still buy their products?

Suckaaas just like y2kev and kosma and the next target emceegrammar

There is truth to what you said, but if enough people really care they can try to get a statement out of chair in which they distance themself from extreme political views or maybe even bring them cease future cooperation with Orson.

 

[Segata Sanshiro]

calling people who don't condone homosexuality on a moral basis 'homophobes' is ad hominem, and just weakens your argument. look the word up if you don't know what it means.

whatevs homophobe

 

[conman]

Go read John Milton's essay "Areopagitica." He's writing this in response to the censorship laws being enacted by reigning Puritans in England in the 17th c. His point is simple: read something first, then make up your mind about it. Not the other way around.

Play Shadow Complex first and then decide if it warrants some sort of censorship or castigation. "Boycotting" a creative product on ideological grounds is a terrible idea, no matter who's doing it and for whatever cause.

 

[Mooreberg]

How about the OP boycotts the game and we all play it and have fun?

A boycott of the "Post New Topic" button would be terrific as well!

 

[mollipen]

It does not bother me giving money to this man as we all have to make a living.

This argument in favor of OSC makes not one bit of sense to me. Everybody should have the right to make a living, including Card, right?

Great... too bad he doesn't think everybody should have the right to get married, and works to make sure of that. Call me a kook, but I'm perfectly fine thinking that no, maybe he shouldn't be making a living so long as he is helping to keep other people from having the rights he has.

 

[Chrange]

I like how because I live in Utah (right next to Provo, actually), I am now automatically an anti-gay marriage, hate spewing piece of filth.

Why don't we actually keep things down to what OSC's beliefs are instead of making large assumptions about what Chair Entertainment and others in my area believe?

Yeah, I think casting aspersions on Chair just because they're from Utah and have worked with him in the past is a bit of a stretch.

I mean I don't recall Undertow or Advent Rising having a thinly disguised "Da'gayz" as an enemy or anything. Maybe Advent Rising, it kept locking up on me and I never really got that far into it.

 

[EmCeeGramr]

His admitting to not being a hardcore lefty. Watch out!

yep, saying homosexuality doesn't makes you dysfunctional is totally radical leftism

 

[Manus]

Oh come on really? The guy had nothing to do with the game.

 

[Son of Godzilla]

Oh and Bioshock does support Ayn Rand's ideals. If you think the capitalists were the bad guys then you have it all backwards.

You have it reversed. The last third of Bioshock is deliberately crap and underdeveloped to highlight how worthless Fontaine is as a villain. He has cartoon superpowers and a cliched boss fight because the idea that capitalism is the bad guy is ridiculous. It's Ryan that's well developed, he's the nightmare, the evil baddy. Fontaine is a joke of a villain, and this is reflected by the game forcing you to sympathize with Ryan. It's not an accident that the game goes to shit once you stop thinking the objectivist fuckhead is the supreme evil. It even railroads you into obeying the doctor chick to showcase that you are no longer a sentient human being, but a Randian.

 

[duckroll]

I think it's a pretty fucked up thing to do. And Card is dumb (except for Ender's Game, oh dear God). Maybe I will ban his upcoming book or something, something which he primarily created.

Shadow Complex is different. Other people who probably don't share Card's views worked very hard on this game, and it's simply not right to ban the whole game when their is one bad apple in the team. It's like when I was in elementary school, ugh, and one FREAKIN kid would do something stupid, so the WHOLE CLASS had to miss recess. It's the same thing here! The 90% other people deserve the money. Try to ban Card in other, more significant ways.

I think this is the problem though, how do we know for sure that they don't share Card's views? I'm not talking about say, the employees working at Chair who worked hard on the game. I'm loving the game, and I acknowledge their hard work. But one thing I think would be good to discuss is that there IS a big questionable relationship between the founders of Chair and Card. There's a personal relationship there and since they collaborated to create the world of Empire, which is.... extremely right-wing batshit insane, it's hard to believe that the founders of Chair share NO common views on many of the things expressed there.

Does that make more sense?

 

[Y2Kev]

Same here. One final point, if you really want to get up and do something about anti-gay commerce, then you could stop buying gas for your car. Most of it comes from the middle east and countries that are not only anti-gay marriage, but they kill gays, and they also don't like women's rights so much. So there's a bigger better fight to take on. All you have to do is sacrifice buying gas and riding in gasoline propelled vehicles.

Good, I live in New York City. I've now boycotted all the middle eastern oil countries. I also grow my own food in my rooftop garden and I will be boycotting chair entertainment.

That people are bitching so much about consistency is peculiar. People are singling out Chair because this is a gaming forum and because it's incredibly obvious who the eminent douche is at the head.

I'm sure no one is in here going IM SECRETLY ONLY GOING TO BOYCOTT CHAIR BECAUSE I HAVE A PLAYSTATION MHAUHA

 

[ShockingAlberto]

How about the OP boycotts the game and we all play it and have fun?

...sure?

Is anyone suggesting otherwise?

You're free to do what you want. Other people don't feel like supporting a product where the end result is Orson Scott Card gets more money to fund organizations like the National Organization for Marriage, where he sits on the board. No one is saying you absolutely have to agree.

 

[KingJ2002]

This thread reeks of ignorance.

He's entitled to free speech as well as having his own views on any topic he chooses. Just as many of you have the right to approve... he has the right to reject.

but... he did not create this game alone nor was his views injected into this game. He worked with many others who in fact need this game to sell well because they need the money from it to feed their families.

before you pull the boycott trigger remember the people that are affected in your decision... also learn how to pick your battles.

 

[Apharmd Battler]

Post of the fucking thread right here.

I second this opinion.

 

[bonesmccoy]

Now, if he can campaign against them, they can campaign against him. It's all fair right?

They sure can! But would it be wrong to describe the OSC haters as Mormonphobes or Christianphobes? Or accuse them of hate speech for attacking OSC' because of his opinions? My concern is that targetting a minority group - be they Muslims, gays, or Mormons - as the main proponents of a social conflict puts that group into a dangerous position, historically speaking.

Plus, the elephant in the room is that Hispanics and African-Americans, who voted overwhelmingly for the Demcratic Party, were the most supportive of Proposition 8. I fear that the Mormons are being unfairly singled out because (a) they make up a miniscule percentage of the population and (b) no one really likes them anyway, especially other Christian groups (some of whom don't even consider Mormonism Christian!).

But whatevs, I don't buy stuff from OSC because I find his work to be boring, pretentious and philosophically confused. Ender's Game was a fun read tho.

 

[woodypop]

If my local plumber put out a sign that said "Gays don't deserve normal people marriage rights" and/or actively gave money supporting that cause, I would find a different plumber.

But according to people on GAF, that is an insane thing to do because why should you mix politics and plumbing

Yeah, but then he won't be able to afford to give his kids a Wii for Xmas from losing your business. Think of the children, man!!!

 

[FoneBone]

I thought Peter David a.k.a Mr. Young Justice/Hulk/X-Factor wrote the story?

He did, and he's pretty vocally liberal. So go figure.

 

[Acosta]

Because Orson has a FUCKTON OF MONEY and can spend it to spread his hate speech and other garbage. Do people not see the connection between Orson Scott Card's tremendous wallet, his funding of prop 8, and the desire to not fatten his wallet by giving him royalties?

Do you see why this is different from boycotting SOME RANDOM DUDE ON THE STREET WHO DISAGREES WITH YOU?

Having a fuckton of money doesn't give him a machine to to control minds. And the end, people votes what they feel.

As you look altered, I'll put clearly to you. With no Orson doing a campaign, the result would have been the same.

 

[Undeux]

Go read John Milton's essay "Areopagitica." He's writing this in response to the censorship laws being enacted by reigning Puritans in England in the 17th c. His point is simple: read something first, then make up your mind about it. Not the other way around.

Play Shadow Complex first and then decide if it warrants some sort of censorship or castigation. "Boycotting" a creative product on ideological grounds is a terrible idea, no matter who's doing it and for whatever cause.

The only way you can play it is by buying it though, so...

On top of that, it isn't really about Shadow Complex as a game.

 

[diddlyD]

whatevs homophobe

no you, fascistnazi!

 

[Smokey]

too late already bought the game yesterday.

 

[squicken]

yep, saying homosexuality makes you dysfunctional is totally radical leftism

Did he say homosexuality makes you dysfunctional?

 

[MadOdorMachine]

Shadow Complex is a 360 Live game that was released to VERY good reviews this week. Its a Metroid Style game brought up to speed with this generations graphics.

However, its set in an Orson Scott Card's world he wrote. Now he has self admitted he didnt have much to do with this game, but, he will be getting profits for the game

Now why should we boycott it? Card is a notorious homophobe.

It's called an opinion. If you don't like it, don't buy the games or books by him.

 

[BravoSuperStar]

Yeah, because god forbid a discussion forum allow the postings of threads where people discuss things.

What a stupid reply.

 

[Undeux]

Did he say homosexuality makes you dysfunctional?

No, he said it is a dysfunction. Again:

5. Ignorance (Hate to break it to everyone but like it or not Homosexuality IS a reproductive dysfunction. This is SCIENCE not Opinion)

 

[Y2Kev]

Having a fuckton of money doesn't give him a machine to to control minds. And the end, people votes what they feel.

As you look altered, I'll put clearly to you. With no Orson doing a campaign, the result would have been the same.

How can you possibly believe this?

 

[woodypop]

Good, I live in New York City. I've now boycotted all the middle eastern oil countries. I also grow my own food in my rooftop garden and I will be boycotting chair entertainment.

That people are bitching so much about consistency is peculiar. People are singling out Chair because this is a gaming forum and because it's incredibly obvious who the eminent douche is at the head.

This cannot be reiterated enough.

Seriously.

 

[mittelos]

Well, it's certainly an individual decision. If you feel that purchasing a product or service is directly or indirectly helping to advance a moral or ideological agenda that you don't agree with, it is certainly your right to not support it.

To me though, it's a slippery slope, and I generally do not mix business with personal beliefs. I'm quite sure there are decision-makers at every business/corporation that I do business with whose personal beliefs, morals, etc., are at odds with my own. Not quite sure how to reconcile that- or if it's even possible.

 

[BravoSuperStar]

Yeah, I think casting aspersions on Chair just because they're from Utah and have worked with him in the past is a bit of a stretch.

I mean I don't recall Undertow or Advent Rising having a thinly disguised "Da'gayz" as an enemy or anything. Maybe Advent Rising, it kept locking up on me and I never really got that far into it.

We're all just a bunch of bigots and polygamists out here, doncha know?

 

[FlyinJ]

I like how because I live in Utah (right next to Provo, actually), I am now automatically an anti-gay marriage, hate spewing piece of filth.

Why don't we actually keep things down to what OSC's beliefs are instead of making large assumptions about what Chair Entertainment and others in my area believe?

(EDIT: For the record, OSC is a whacko)

Do you run a development house in Provo that paid OSC to be involved with a project? No? Well then you're fine.

 

[mollipen]

Shadow Complex is different. Other people who probably don't share Card's views worked very hard on this game, and it's simply not right to ban the whole game when their is one bad apple in the team. It's like when I was in elementary school, ugh, and one FREAKIN kid would do something stupid, so the WHOLE CLASS had to miss recess. It's the same thing here! The 90% other people deserve the money. Try to ban Card in other, more significant ways.

And to be clear, I totally understand this argument. I might buy the game, or I might not, I'm not sure. What I think is important is that we don't call the people who do decide not to support the game over Card's involvement morons here, because I feel it's a legitimate concern to have.

My question is more what Chair's whole position on the matter is. If they're a group of people who just have an unfortunate connection, I don't see any reason they should suffer because of Card. If they're attachment to Card is more than that, and money they're making may also be going to support the anti-gay movement, then things get tougher.

 

[I AM JOHN!]

If Shadow Complex was pushing his mormon or homophobic agenda, then sure, why not? But it's not, so I don't really see the point of depriving myself of playing an awesome game.

 

[LiK]

hey, i bought this game to support Peter David and Nolan North. they need to feed their kids too.

 

[rollingstart]

I honestly didn't know about any of this stuff. I've never read anything by Card before, and the only thing I played by the devs was Undertow for about 4 minutes. Had I known before buying, I most likely would have bought the game anyway. While I don't want to support that kind of attitude, I'm also pretty greedy sometimes and wouldn't want to deprive myself of a great game. fwiw, the game didn't seem to have any of those ideas in it. Except maybe that scene where he wore a suit with a female AI program, then went off on a tangent about how he's glad he was inside a woman and not a man.

but yeah, that's pretty messed up. Was this stuff in the media back when Advent Rising came out and people were all hyped because Card wrote it or something?

and the story for Shadow Complex is terrible bad. Only good part is the alternate ending.