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Should we boycott Shadow Complex?

Shurs said:
If a Taxi driver was standing on the soapbox, promoting intolerance, I'd find another cab.
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What if the other one you get, does the same..but is less vocal about it?

Because let's face it..
This thread is because Card has been pretty vocal about his anti-gay things..but what if you removed Card, and say..made everyone at Chair anti-gay, in favor of Pro-8..yet, they weren't that vocal....
 
ShockingAlberto said:
That's a shame, but he is unfortunately part of the line between my wallet and funding anti-gay marriage ammendments. And other people will be in those lines, too, between my money and people doing things I don't believe in.
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Not so many as you'd think, spud. Look, I'm pro-gay; I believe that two men, or two women, should be allowed every single right and ability as anyone else. But for every 2 people you've "converted" to NOT buying this game, this bullshit controvery over Card has convinced 4 people to take a look at the trial on XBLA. You aren't helping; you're just being loud and proud. Good for you. Bad for your cause.
 
Odrion said:
So ShockingAlberto, you weren't going to buy the game anyways?
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I was planning to eventually.

I planned to download the demo today and see if there was a scenario where the game quality was so overwhelming that I could be convinced the artistic vision was more important than the circumstances from which it was born.

E74 kind of killed that.
 
ha1f said:
Well, how are you defining "developer"? I'm thinking about this like a code monkey, because that's what I am. If I had written something I was really proud of, and then gotten fucked over because my bosses decided to hire a douchebag to write some books about my game, I'd be pissed. You absolutely have the write to make your opinion known with your wallet no matter what your reasons. If you feel that no one in the organization deserves your dollar because of someones decision to involve OSC, then so be it. I'd like to reward the people who actually had a hand in making the game by purchasing it, though. Doesn't mean I have to buy any books. Doesn't mean I have to feel like involving OSC is a good choice. But shit, I'm gonna the guy who wrote up the shoot-into-background mechanic his due.
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Well, by developer, I meant anyone who worked on the game really. But to look on it a different way, say if the next Gears of War was an RTS, and if I didn't like RTSes, I wouldn't buy that game. The decision to change genres wasn't made by the code monkey, and if people don't buy it because of that decision, then he certainly loses out. But I as the consumer shouldn't feel obligated to support him, just because the genre change wasn't his fault. Naturally, this comes down to people's own priorities. Some may feel that genre change isn't that big of a deal, just like a lot of people don't feel like Card's involvement is a big deal. Conversely, some people obviously do feel that it conflicts with their interests and they're free to spend their money accordingly.
 
fernoca said:
What if the other one you get, does the same..but is less vocal about it?

Because let's face it..
This thread is because Card has been pretty vocal about his anti-gay things..but what if you removed Card, and say..made everyone at Chair anti-gay, in favor of Pro-8..yet, they weren't that vocal....
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i'd still be pretty dubious about purchasing it if i was aware of their largely uniform beliefs, but if they aren't media-savvy and vocal -- and hence, aren't part of the propaganda -- then i'd probably just live and let live and buy their games if they appeal to me.
 
Spoo said:
Not so many as you'd think, spud. Look, I'm pro-gay; I believe that two men, or two women, should be allowed every single right and ability as anyone else. But for every 2 people you've "converted" to NOT buying this game, this bullshit controvery over Card has convinced 4 people to take a look at the trial on XBLA. You aren't helping; you're just being loud and proud. Good for you. Bad for your cause.
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Who am I trying to convert? What cause?

I've been very clear about my motivations that I don't care what anyone else does. I know what I'm doing and I'm explaining it very clearly. Some people agree, some don't, such is the nature of debate. You can feel free to read through my posts if you like, not once have I chided someone for buying the game, due to spite or otherwise.
 
genjiZERO said:
oh I see. But here, sexually and reproductively mean the same thing. The word I have issue with is "dysfunction". A dysfunction is something that doesn't work. Homosexuals, like heterosexuals who chose not to reproduce, are not infertile. Some homosexuals do hose to reproduce. Even if everyone on the planet was homosexual the species could still continue because reproduction would be possible. So I'm not seeing the argument of a dysfunction.
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I take it as sexually dysfunctional meaning unable (physical), reproductively dysfunctional meaning unwilling (mental). Sure, a homosexual CAN reproduce, but they generally aren't willing, hence reproductively dysfunctional.

Don't forget that in my first post I said it's debatable whether an unwillingness to reproduce is a bad thing.

Also I think we've gone off on a tangent from the original issue. :lol
 
Spoo said:
God, really? My money will go in a lot of directions. A portion of it will go to Microsoft, for hosting/allowing the game on their "service" in the first place. A large portion will go to Epic and Chair, for obvious reasons. A super, super small portion of it will go to Card for "contributing" a storyline base. Do any of you even know if, maybe, Card being such a goddamn "saint", -- can you really prove to me that he's getting anything for this? Even a cent?

No, not really. You guys are spazzing out about shit you can't prove, and have 0 insight into. Goodnight.
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Really? You think with all the involvement Card has with this game, all the interviews and promos, that he's not getting any royalties?
 
SuperEnemyCrab said:
Pretty much. It's good to know if I have a personal political agenda regarding a game or with someone involved with a game GAF will accommodate me with a soapbox to try and convert others to my way of thinking.
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You really seem to have trouble grasping the concept of a "message forum".

And really? "Personal political agenda"? The OP posted his message asking if a boycott would be called for or not, and in doing so wanted to know the opinions of others. That lead to... wait for it... the discussion we're having now about the topic, as to if a boycott is indeed called for or not.

Even though there have been some morons in here, and at times the discussion gets a little heated, it's still a discussion. Discussions are good. And, to me, worth far more than threads where we say "fap fap fap" over bullshots or argue over if a particular game is a bomba or not.
 
ShockingAlberto said:
Who am I trying to convert? What cause?

I've been very clear about my motivations that I don't care what anyone else does. I know what I'm doing and I'm explaining it very clearly. Some people agree, some don't, such is the nature of debate. You can feel free to read through my posts if you like, not once have I chided someone for buying the game, due to spite or otherwise.
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Yeah, but look: I'm simply trying to say -- because I do think it's a great game -- that you're only hurting yourself by not supporting Chair. You have a good cause; fair motivation, but your stance is about as ridiculous as suggesting: "Hey guys, lets not buy X game because it was made in Utah, and *most* Utahns suggest being gay is evil, and I don't agree!" -- you're not sending the message you want, frankly. You disagree with Orson. Cool. But that's not the way that missing $15 will be interpreted. It'll be anything but.

Instead, consider that the game makes absolutely 0 comment about what is right and wrong, and only has awesome gameplay? Motivate Chair and even Card that THAT is what you want in your games, and not his bullshit philsophical/religious perspectives. Buying a game that is so absolutely and completely nothing but a videogame in the truest sense will keep these guys from pumping out psudo-religious bullshit because they'll say "Damn, this Shadow Complex did good. Who's up for Shadow Complex 2?!"

If anything, I'm just trying to recommend a really cool game to you. I'm not trying to hate on your opinion; which is valid, if somewhat... misplaced?
 
Odrion said:
ShockingAlberto, you must have the F5 key taped down for this topic. You keep grabbing my posts before I edit them.
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This is the first GAF topic that has really interested me in a long time.

I love video games, but discussing things that matter is nice, too.
 
Drinky Crow said:
i'd still be pretty dubious about purchasing it if i was aware of their largely uniform beliefs, but if they aren't media-savvy and vocal -- and hence, aren't part of the propaganda -- then i'd probably just live and let live and buy their games if they appeal to me.
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Exactly.
Knowing about this, made me think twice..heck I posted it earlier on this thread, but then,..after talking with other gay-friends and the fact that I'm gay..the game still interests me. Seems fun, videos look nice, impressions are overly positive..

I don't agree with Card, but Chair made a great game..and is not like the game has any anti-gay innuendos (that I'm aware of)..or about looking to stop the "homo-sexual disease"..or something.
 
ShockingAlberto said:
This is the first GAF topic that has really interested me in a long time.

I love video games, but discussing things that matter is nice, too.
Click to expand...

Come to the OT, make a tipping thread.
 
ShockingAlberto is a lowresphobe, he doesn't accept that some games are born with a different resolution preference than others.

(okay I know what you stated before I just wanted to make the joke)
 
Divvy said:
Really? You think with all the involvement Card has with this game, all the interviews and promos, that he's not getting any royalties?
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Who knows? But they went off and made a badass game that has (from what I can tell) no philosphical or religious undertones, and that is absolutely awesome, and you want to hurt them for that? What's next? Maybe Epic and Chair will think "We should make a religiously off-puting game because our pure-gameplay 'Shadow Complex' did shitty!" And that'll be even worse.

For every cent that goes to Mr. Card, you're giving much more to people who matter and actually make the goddamn games, son!
 
as i've said, i don't care where the money goes. if a company that makes games publically and regularly consorts with david duke, i wouldn't support them either, even if duke never receives a single cent. to those who pay attention, orson scott card is as toxic a media personality as david duke, or michael savage, or dick cheney. i'm not going to give money to a company that regularly associates with and/or works with known propagandist slime who have, through their media efforts, directly hurt the lives of people i know and damaged rational discourse around important social issues.
 
Spoo said:
Who knows? But they went off and made a badass game that has (from what I can tell) no philosphical or religious undertones, and that is absolutely awesome, and you want to hurt them for that? What's next? Maybe Epic and Chair will think "We should make a religiously off-puting game because our pure-gameplay 'Shadow Complex' did shitty!" And that'll be even worse.

For every cent that goes to Mr. Card, you're giving much more to people who matter and actually make the goddamn games, son!
Click to expand...

I'm not hurting them at all by not buying their game, I'm just not benefitting them. The way I see it, by not supporting this game, my money will just go to support the devs of Splosion Man.
 
fernoca said:
Exactly.
Knowing about this, made me think twice..heck I posted it earlier on this thread, but then,..after talking with other gay-friends and the fact that I'm gay..the game still interests me. Seems fun, videos look nice, impressions are overly positive..

I don't agree with Card, but Chair made a great game..and is not like the game has any anti-gay innuendos (that I'm aware of)..or about looking to stop the "homo-sexual disease"..or something.
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it's not that the game is anti-gay -- in fact, i can't imagine why it would be -- but that the developer publically associates itself and its business with card.
 
Woo-Fu said:
That would actually be counterproductive for your goal. If you hire him he won't be standing on the soapbox anymore, he'll be driving you around.
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My goal wouldn't be to censor the guy, I just wouldn't give him money. Just because I disagree, and choose not to support someone, doesn't mean that they should lose their right to free speech.
 
Spoo said:
Yeah, but look: I'm simply trying to say -- because I do think it's a great game -- that you're only hurting yourself by not supporting Chair. You have a good cause; fair motivation, but your stance is about as ridiculous as suggesting: "Hey guys, lets not buy X game because it was made in Utah, and *most* Utahns suggest being gay is evil, and I don't agree!" -- you're not sending the message you want, frankly. You disagree with Orson. Cool. But that's not the way that missing $15 will be interpreted. It'll be anything but.

Instead, consider that the game makes absolutely 0 comment about what is right and wrong, and only has awesome gameplay? Motivate Chair and even Card that THAT is what you want in your games, and not his bullshit philsophical/religious perspectives. Buying a game that is so absolutely and completely nothing but a videogame in the truest sense will keep these guys from pumping out psudo-religious bullshit because they'll say "Damn, this Shadow Complex did good. Who's up for Shadow Complex 2?!"

If anything, I'm just trying to recommend a really cool game to you. I'm not trying to hate on your opinion; which is valid, if somewhat... misplaced?
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Well, here's the thing. Even if it sends absolutely no message - and you're right, it very likely won't - at least I know my money didn't go to further harming a cause I believe in.

There is a chance, even if it is incredibly miniscule, that a portion of the money I spent on the game will go to anti-gay marriage causes. There might be a chance of that elsewhere. Maybe Reggie is a segregationist, maybe Jade Raymond believes fully that we should nuke Iran, but I don't know that. They've never expressed those views. I do know what Card things, I do know what he spends money on, and I do know that I don't want to take the chance that my money is involved with it.

I am passing on a game, an entertainment product. I am opting out on an activity that will consume a few hours of my life and I'll forget about in a year. I can live with it, but I couldn't live with the alternative.

Misplaced as they may be, my beliefs matter to me.
 
Odrion said:
ShockingAlberto is a lowresphobe, he doesn't accept that some games are born with a different resolution preference than others.

(okay I know what you stated before I just wanted to make the joke)
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I own a Wii!

I just recently built a gaming computer and so this was a bad time for 720p games to come out on consoles. :P
 
Drinky Crow said:
it's not that the game is anti-gay -- in fact, i can't imagine why it would be -- but that the developer publically associates itself and its business with card.
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Yeah..that made me think twice...
But I'll see, by the time I have a 360, how far this topic went..threads around here has been famous for making headlines in other places , so who knows..
 
evil solrac v3.0 said:
it's not fair to the people who actually worked on the game itself. so no, i won't boycott.
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then those people should protest card's association with their company if this is important to their values. (if it's not, well, i'm sure they'll absorb the losses just fine.) microsoft successfully had ralph reed removed as a retainer because they didn't want their products tied to a hatemonger. (http://www.sfgate.com/cgi-bin/article.cgi?file=/chronicle/archive/2005/05/28/MNGJ9D08KB1.DTL)
 
ShockingAlberto said:
Well, here's the thing. Even if it sends absolutely no message - and you're right, it very likely won't - at least I know my money didn't go to further harming a cause I believe in.

There is a chance, even if it is incredibly miniscule, that a portion of the money I spent on the game will go to anti-gay marriage causes. There might be a chance of that elsewhere. Maybe Reggie is a segregationist, maybe Jade Raymond believes fully that we should nuke Iran, but I don't know that. They've never expressed those views. I do know what Card things, I do know what he spends money on, and I do know that I don't want to take the chance that my money is involved with it.

I am passing on a game, an entertainment product. I am opting out on an activity that will consume a few hours of my life and I'll forget about in a year. I can live with it, but I couldn't live with the alternative.

Misplaced as they may be, my beliefs matter to me.
Click to expand...

Couldn't have said it better myself.
 
ShockingAlberto said:
Well, here's the thing. Even if it sends absolutely no message - and you're right, it very likely won't - at least I know my money didn't go to further harming a cause I believe in.

There is a chance, even if it is incredibly miniscule, that a portion of the money I spent on the game will go to anti-gay marriage causes. There might be a chance of that elsewhere. Maybe Reggie is a segregationist, maybe Jade Raymond believes fully that we should nuke Iran, but I don't know that. They've never expressed those views. I do know what Card things, I do know what he spends money on, and I do know that I don't want to take the chance that my money is involved with it.

I am passing on a game, an entertainment product. I am opting out on an activity that will consume a few hours of my life and I'll forget about in a year. I can live with it, but I couldn't live with the alternative.

Misplaced as they may be, my beliefs matter to me.
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But, dude! :lol We're so in the dark about all of this! Perhaps I buy God of War 3 and it turns out the Director of the game looks at child porn and maybe has his own child porn studio, and I'm somehow helping to fund the operation! I'd hate that. If I *knew* what was going on there, I'd go crazy.

But the situation with Shadow Complex is hardly so... Complex. And there's the question of -- do I want to support a company; much less, do I want to support Orson Scott Card. Shadow Complex is a *great game*. A Game that Card contributed to very little. Whatever he sees back will be in a similar quantity. Yes, you can control where you *think* your money is going to go. No, you can absolutely never control exactly where it *does* go.

So my sincere recommendation is to stop believing in the audacity and hate of other people, like Card, and to start hoping for the good in others; the 30-or so others who worked long and hard on Shadow Complex. Don't hurt them because one of them may or may not make a choice that is not to your liking. Any developer on the face of the planet may make a decision that is not to your liking!
 
Drinky Crow said:
i don't care about where the money goes. i just don't give my money -- and thus, my approval -- to companies that give orson scott card the time of day, and doubly so when they regularly associate with him. that's it. pretty simple.
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So no more Warner Bros. films then, eh?
 
well, i'm sure gonna be researching warner bros support of card now that you've brought it up, and yeah, it could very well mean no more wb movies.
 
Divvy said:
Couldn't have said it better myself.
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Would you also accept the game as a gift from a friend? I'm asking because ShockingAlberto said he would and I fail to understand why he wouldn't tell his friend that supporting such people is wrong like he does in this thread.
 
Spoo said:
But, dude! :lol We're so in the dark about all of this! Perhaps I buy God of War 3 and it turns out the Director of the game looks at child porn and maybe has his own child porn studio, and I'm somehow helping to fund the operation! I'd hate that. If I *knew* what was going on there, I'd go crazy.

But the situation with Shadow Complex is hardly so... Complex. And there's the question of -- do I want to support a company; much less, do I want to support Orson Scott Card. Shadow Complex is a *great game*. A Game that Card contributed to very little. Whatever he sees back will be in a similar quantity. Yes, you can control where you *think* your money is going to go. No, you can absolutely never control exactly where it *does* go.

So my sincere recommendation is to stop believing in the audacity and hate of other people, like Card, and to start hoping for the good in others; the 30-or so others who worked long and hard on Shadow Complex. Don't hurt them because one of them may or may not make a choice that is not to your liking. Any developer on the face of the planet may make a decision that is not to your liking!
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But I can greatly lower the chance it will go to Card by simply not buying this project.

I really doubt it would hurt Chair, regardless. This is the big XBLA summer game, they're making a bundle with or without me.

I dunno, I doubt we'll see eye to eye on this. Card's involvement, minor though it may be, is enough to keep me from giving the developer my money. Whether they get a message from that or not, at least my money stays out of his hands.
 
kamorra said:
Would you also accept the game as a gift from a friend? I'm asking because ShockingAlberto said he would and I fail to understand why he wouldn't tell his friend that supporting such people is wrong like he does in this thread.
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I would. My friend is free to spend his money whereever he wishes.
 
Drinky Crow said:
well, i'm sure gonna be researching warner bros support of card now that you've brought it up, and yeah, it could very well mean no more wb movies.
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Drinky, dude, I've always loved you. But c'mon -- the second we start limiting our ability to play or view entertainment because someone involved with it's production disagrees with a personal viewpoint... it's the second we become, frankly, religious extremists! The "gay" issue is, mostly, a religious issue, and I don't stop watching Mel Gibson films because he's a Roman Catholic and I was raised a Mormon.

Conversly, I don't boycott Shadow Complex because I truly believe in the gay movement!
 
Timber said:
do you mean 'accepting' ? if so, stop assuming so damned much. you think you got people pegged just by reading a couple of posts, don't you? and stop trying to make this so personal. i'm getting quite fed up with your shit
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Okay looking over this again once more I probably said it wrong, I meant that you look at your hypocrisies as the acceptance that you can only do so much in our society. I disagree with the idea of boycotting in the modern age but I guess you are different from other people that boycott a single issue or two and talk about how self-righteous they are for doing so, while oblivious that they're probably helping many other terrible things.

At least I think I worded that differently and what you read before is different.

If you are going to reply that I am an generalizing asshole who is pegging you by a couple of your posts than I'm going to keep the stance that you are pretty pompous.
 
kamorra said:
Would you also accept the game as a gift from a friend? I'm asking because ShockingAlberto said he would
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Huh?

I think the confusion comes from "Probably not". As in, "I would probably not accept it," not "I would probably not have a problem." My mistake.

I thought the second part would have made that more clear.
 
shidoshi said:
You really seem to have trouble grasping the concept of a "message forum".

And really? "Personal political agenda"? The OP posted his message asking if a boycott would be called for or not, and in doing so wanted to know the opinions of others. That lead to... wait for it... the discussion we're having now about the topic, as to if a boycott is indeed called for or not.

Even though there have been some morons in here, and at times the discussion gets a little heated, it's still a discussion. Discussions are good. And, to me, worth far more than threads where we say "fap fap fap" over bullshots or argue over if a particular game is a bomba or not.
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You're starting to kinda creep me out, gaming pal. You went pretty far back in the thread, ignored the persons post I was agreeing with and typed that big old douche bag reply just to respond to my comment that went un-noticed? Yikes.
 
ShockingAlberto said:
But I can greatly lower the chance it will go to Card by simply not buying this project.

I really doubt it would hurt Chair, regardless. This is the big XBLA summer game, they're making a bundle with or without me.

I dunno, I doubt we'll see eye to eye on this. Card's involvement, minor though it may be, is enough to keep me from giving the developer my money. Whether they get a message from that or not, at least my money stays out of his hands.
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Yes, I agree that you can lower the chance. And if it's that important to you my friend, feel free to spend not a cent on this game. Chair, though, is a frequent collaborater with Card, and I'd prefer Chair make games like Shadow Complex, than anything which both you and I would be offended with thematically.
 
Drinky Crow said:
well, i'm sure gonna be researching warner bros support of card now that you've brought it up, and yeah, it could very well mean no more wb movies.
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Drinky Crow
Banned
(Today, 08:52 PM)

Wow, what happened? That must be like the 10th person that has been banned in this thread.

And I think it is just dumb for someone to boycott a whole company because one game/movie has a homophobic undertone, just boycott the specific game/movie...
 
Spoo said:
Drinky, dude, I've always loved you. But c'mon -- the second we start limiting our ability to play or view entertainment because someone involved with it's production disagrees with a personal viewpoint... it's the second we become, frankly, religious extremists! The "gay" issue is, mostly, a religious issue, and I don't stop watching Mel Gibson films because he's a Roman Catholic and I was raised a Mormon.

Conversly, I don't boycott Shadow Complex because I truly believe in the gay movement!
Click to expand...

i choose my battles, and i draw lines as i see fit. prop 8 really pissed me off, and i am personally choosing to not associate with companies that regularly associate with its proponents, and, in the case of glyph/chair, have built some of their success on the back of that association. in a couple years, and if we see progress made in the social status of gay folks, maybe i will have cooled on the matter, but for now, disposable entertainment options are forfeit to my political acumen.
 
ShockingAlberto said:
Huh?

I think the confusion comes from "Probably not". As in, "I would probably not accept it," not "I would probably not have a problem." My mistake.

I thought the second part would have made that more clear.
Click to expand...

Oh, well then it's all ok.
 
Drinky Crow said:
i choose my battles, and i draw lines as i see fit. prop 8 really pissed me off, and i am personally choosing to not associate with companies that regularly associate with its proponents, and, in the case of glyph/chair, have built some of their success on the back of that association. in a couple years, and if we see progress made in the social status of gay folks, maybe i will have cooled on the matter, but for now, disposable entertainment options are forfeit to my political acumen.
Click to expand...

Yeah, dude, Prop 8 pissed the fuck out of me -- but we don't have very many game dev. places in Utah, and I personally feel as though... hell, probably everyone at Chair has read the Ender series, so as not to piss off the established author. But can we agree that most certainly not everyone at Chair, Epic, or MS (the three major companies which benefit from this) agree with Card's ridiculous, extremist perspective on homosexuals? I think we can.

I'm begging everyone in this thread to consider Chair before you think about not buying this product because of Card. 1 is a douche. The other 30-something... not so much, yes?
 
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