Support NeoGAF

[HK-47]

lol

Right cause you are gonna spend time attacking the walls. Gotcha

Not if your Ike.

No, if you are Ike you will get the shit kicked out of you for not continually pressing the opponent. Plus Ike has good vert killing ability so it doesnt hurt him as much

 

[Firestorm]

Yeah, the design of Shadow Moses Island is really bad =/

 

[HK-47]

Lots more stages are gonna be up for counter pick with waveshining gone. Plus it seems like most of you care about something that doesnt affect you, since most of the people complaining hate tournies anyways. If people are willing to make an all stages league (holy lol) or an item league, they are welcome to do so. Its not like stage bannings or items affect random play

Also you might run away for the entire match cause, you know, there is prize money and rewards at stake

 

[abstract alien]

Marth and Roy both have sweetspots where they do the most damage and knockback. For Marth, it's at the tip of the sword. For Roy it's at the middle. So Marth has more range when using him effectively than Roy who has to get up close. Also, Marth does more damage and knockback with all his useful moves when compared to Roy. Marth is also faster and has a better recovery iirc. Basically, Marth outclasses Roy in every way =/

There are a ton of little things that are unique to Smash when it comes to advanced techniques. Lots of techniques involve cancelling like other games, but there's some stuff that's unique. For Brawl, look into Directional Influence (same as in Melee) and Teching/Ukemi for a start. Both are very important and a good starting point. http://www.smashboards.com is where you'll want to check. There's a stickied topic in the Brawl Discussion Forum.

coo, thanks

 

[justchris]

Lots more stages are gonna be up for counter pick with waveshining gone. Plus it seems like most of you care about something that doesnt affect you, since most of the people complaining hate tournies anyways. If people are willing to make an all stages league (holy lol) or an item league, they are welcome to do so. Its not like stage bannings or items affect random play

Well, again, Brawl isn't Melee. We can still establish the tourney rules for Brawl to be different than the ones for Melee, and if we create a working tourney format that does allow certain items (like the existing Melee tourney format only allows certain stages), I don't see why it would be impossible to get others to consider adopting it.

 

[Tathanen]

Also you might run away for the entire match cause, you know, there is prize money and rewards at stake

Sorry, but that's just despicable. I'm not sure why competitive video gamers seem to completely discard the notion of good sportsmanship. What the hell good is a win or reward when you act like a complete douchebag to achieve it.

Also: I do have an interest in competitive play. Just because I'm not part of the hivemind, it doesn't mean all I want to do is play randomly. Accept the fact that not everyone holds the same opinion of the current state of competitive rules.

 

[Firestorm]

March 9th is the first day of Daylight Saving!
That will make up 1 hour of the 24 hours we had to miss. Never thought I'd be glad for Daylight Savings.

This also means we're back to 12:00 AM PDT / 3:00 AM EDT for updates on March 9th.

 

[Jiggy]

Sorry, but that's just despicable. I'm not sure why competitive video gamers seem to completely discard the notion of good sportsmanship. What the hell good is a win or reward when you act like a complete douchebag to achieve it.

This isn't limited to competitive gamers. Casuals don't exactly have any issue with sportsmanship if a Starman randomly drops next to them three times in a single match. ;P


But seriously, I don't see how running away is somehow an unfair or cheap tactic. How do you differentiate between that and simple defensive play? Or is defensive play wrong as well? Why can't running away be considered a fair mindgame?

 

[HK-47]

Sorry, but that's just despicable. I'm not sure why competitive video gamers seem to completely discard the notion of good sportsmanship. What the hell good is a win or reward when you act like a complete douchebag to achieve it.

Also: I do have an interest in competitive play. Just because I'm not part of the hivemind, it doesn't mean all I want to do is play randomly. Accept the fact that not everyone holds the same opinion of the current state of competitive rules.

Well gee wiz. Guess everyone isnt up to your standard of ethics. Deal with it

 

[RocketDarkness]

Tathanen, have you read Sirlin's various musings in regard to competitive play? They're posted far too often, but they are fairly enlightening writings.

 

[Iam Canadian]

But seriously, I don't see how running away is somehow an unfair or cheap tactic. How do you differentiate between that and simple defensive play? Or is defensive play wrong as well? Why can't running away be considered a fair mindgame?

I think that's the kind of thing that can be taken on a case-by-case basis. Getting one KO in a time match and spending the rest of the fight running for your life is different from using defensive play or a mindgame.

 

[CreatureX3]

If people are willing to make an all stages league (holy lol) or an item league, they are welcome to do so.

This is the type of tourney I want to play in!

 

[HK-47]

I think that's the kind of thing that can be taken on a case-by-case basis. Getting one KO in a time match and spending the rest of the fight running for your life is different from using defensive play or a mindgame.

Where does one end and the other begin?

 

[Firestorm]

Sorry, but that's just despicable. I'm not sure why competitive video gamers seem to completely discard the notion of good sportsmanship. What the hell good is a win or reward when you act like a complete douchebag to achieve it.

Also: I do have an interest in competitive play. Just because I'm not part of the hivemind, it doesn't mean all I want to do is play randomly. Accept the fact that not everyone holds the same opinion of the current state of competitive rules.

To me, sportsmanship is before and after the game. Especially in Smash, people shake hands after a match 99% of the time and say good game. During the game, anything within the rules of the touranment goes. You are playing to win and are expected to play as if you're playing to win.

They try and ban certain tactics, but it's hard. For example, the most vague rules in competitive smash is probably "Jigglypuff's Rising Pound and Peach's Wallbomber may be used as means of recovery but not to excessively stall a match". How much is stalling? If there's 15 seconds left in the timer, you're both at over 100% and you could win, should you be able to stall?

If you want to evolve a game, I think a person's individual idea of "sportsmanship" needs to be thrown out the window while playing. Play to win and the game gets better faster.

Yes, I am one of those who really do like Sirlin's Playing to Win book and find the contents to be very good rules for competitive games to follow.

 

[Chris Michael]

could someone tell me what's going down?

 

[Firestorm]

could someone tell me what's going down?

New crappy stage started tournament debate.

 

[HK-47]

New crappy stage started tournament debate.

You best not be referring to Spear Pillar

 

[RoboPlato]

You best not be referring to Spear Pillar

I think he means the discussion is crappy, not the stage.

EDIT: I stand corrected.

 

[Firestorm]

You best not be referring to Spear Pillar

Spear Pillar sucks. It's plain unfun. None of the stage effects are fun. Trying to get to someone camping in the cavern is not fun. It's NOT FUN.

 

[HK-47]

Spear Pillar sucks. It's plain unfun. None of the stage effects are fun. Trying to get to someone camping in the cavern is not fun. It's NOT FUN.

Flipping the stage upside down and slowing down time seems like a fuckton of fun to me. Then again it seems you consider alot of the weird stages crappy

 

[justchris]

Spear Pillar sucks. It's plain unfun. None of the stage effects are fun. Trying to get to someone camping in the cavern is not fun. It's NOT FUN.

Have you tried playing it free4all or just 1v1, cause the camping comment makes it seem like a 1v1 issue.

Of course, I haven't played at all, so I have no opinion yet, but it looks like fun. And I hated Pokefloats.

 

[Jiggy]

Poke Floats was excellent and I want it to return. To mention another generally-unliked and frenetic stage, Big Blue was also excellent and I want that to return too. Looking at Spear Pillar, on the other hand, makes me think of Brinstar Depths (which I hated) or Frigate Orpheon on steroids and simultaneously fused with directly-harmful stage hazards.

 

[Crumpet Trumpet]

I don't understand how people can not like Big Blue

 

[Tathanen]

I think that's the kind of thing that can be taken on a case-by-case basis. Getting one KO in a time match and spending the rest of the fight running for your life is different from using defensive play or a mindgame.

This.

And you can't just draw a line and say "this is where it goes from technique to douchebaggery." There isn't a line, it's all contextual. What really defines it is the mindset. It's what the person is trying to do. If you're running away because the opponent has the advantage, and it's in your best interest to escape while planning a more appropriate offensive, then fine. I'm not saying you can't run. But if you are thinking "I can, with this one point advantage, now win the fight by running in a circle for three minutes straight," well, I don't think I need to explain how that's different.

Well gee wiz. Guess everyone isnt up to your standard of ethics. Deal with it

Well gee wiz, HK-47 is being a twat again.

Ethics are necessary due to competitive gaming's lack of referees. I'm not going to go and claim that every sports-player would stay within the boundaries of fair play if there weren't referees penalizing them at every turn for it. Those rules are what makes it an actual competition, however. They're what separate martial arts tournaments from street fights.

The competitive scene you extol is lawless. It's a fight club that thinks it's a tournament, ignorant to what an actual tournament entails. Ban as many levels as you want, but if people play with the mindset that absolutely anything they can do to win is valid, then it's not what I'm interested in. This does not mean, as you might so mindlessly slur in your slack-jawed stupor, that I am not interested in competitive play. It means that I have no interest in your deranged street-fighting cage matches. I play to compete, yes, but not to eye-gouge, groin-kick, and tendon-cut.

Firestorm (and the guy who mentioned it before him), I am aware of that guy's "playing to win" philosophy. I think it's decidedly flawed. I think that the insight that can be gained into a game's systems, the primary benefit of his philosophy, can be achieved outside of actual competition. When one competes, however, one should temper themselves and compete as a man, not as an animal. I have far more interest in being respected as a fighter, as a competitor, than I have in winning at any cost.

If you guys disagree, so be it. I'm not laying down the law here. The only reason I'm explaining this in such detail is that I can't stand how certain people in this thread see things in such black-and-white terms. Defining, in an authoritative tone, that a stage is "terrible," and should be banned from play. Not allowing for the notion of a dissenting opinion, and actually laughing at the someone supporting an all-stages tournament scene. The smugness is what gets to me more than anything. The claims that since someone disagrees with how you think the game should be played, they're obviously a "casual" player and have no interest in competition. A nice big fuck you to you guys.

 

[funkmastergeneral]

some of you guys seem to take this stuff really seriously, but with my friends it was always just a simple rule, whether we're playing wiffle ball or Halo - you play to win but don't be a douche about it. Douches get punches.

 

[dude]

Jiggy, I'm a few pages away from finishing my section. I'm very sorry it took this long, but I had a lot going on during the past few weeks, and now I finally have some time to put into it. I'll send you the quotes soon. Again, very sorry :\

 

[TJ Spyke]

This is the type of tourney I want to play in!

Me too. To me, the tru Smash champ will be determined in a tournament with all stages available and all items on.

For Firestorm's tournament, I don't think it's fair to ban all items. Maybe just ban certain ones (like Bob-ombs and Smart Bombs), just keep the Smash Ball in.

Is there anyone set to officially create the tournament after Firestorm's? If not, I would be willing to help.

 

[Jiggy]

And you can't just draw a line and say "this is where it goes from technique to douchebaggery." There isn't a line, it's all contextual. What really defines it is the mindset. It's what the person is trying to do. If you're running away because the opponent has the advantage, and it's in your best interest to escape while planning a more appropriate offensive, then fine. I'm not saying you can't run. But if you are thinking "I can, with this one point advantage, now win the fight by running in a circle for three minutes straight," well, I don't think I need to explain how that's different.

You complained later on about people seeing things in black-and-white terms, but you're using black-and-white hypotheticals to support your own claim: either they have the advantage and you're running, which is fine, or you have a one point advantage and you're running, which is not fine (according to you). But what if the person running has a two point advantage, or three points? Or what if the two players are relatively even? What if they're exactly even, and the person running is just trying to force the match to sudden death? This is the issue that's being raised.

some of you guys seem to take this stuff really seriously, but with my friends it was always just a simple rule, whether we're playing wiffle ball or Halo - you play to win but don't be a douche about it. Douches get punches.

How is punching people in real life over the rules of a video game not serious? >_>

Jiggy, I'm a few pages away from finishing my section. I'm very sorry it took this long, but I had a lot going on during the past few weeks, and now I finally have some time to put into it. I'll send you the quotes soon. Again, very sorry :\

Not a problem. I have major stuff going on right now, so I do understand. >_>

 

[HK-47]

Except you dont have any experience with the scene with which you bitch and moan about, so you are uninformed. There are glitches and tactics that are banned or frowned upon and even more that can turn the match but require very specific conditions or tremendous skill to set up. The smash scene is self made, and doesnt have enough refs for every event, and yes its harder to to determine what is fair and what is not then you say.
The rules of the current smash scene apply to that scene but that doesnt mean people cant use items or what not in another league if they choose to run it. The current rules have worked well so far. You complain about stages but you dont realize that many stages actually elimate characters from being played do to severe disadvantages, eliminating the numbers of character that can even compete. All stages are meant to be fun but not all run by rules of fair play. If you present an overwhelming advantage to a certain character, should the players not take advantage of it?

 

[scottnak]

Me too. To me, the tru Smash champ will be determined in a tournament with all stages available and all items on.

For Firestorm's tournament, I don't think it's fair to ban all items. Maybe just ban certain ones (like Bob-ombs and Smart Bombs), just keep the Smash Ball in.

Is there anyone set to officially create the tournament after Firestorm's? If not, I would be willing to help.

*shrug* I don't think there's anything set as for how the tournaments will be ironed out...
Earlier I was thinking of something like a dual set tournament.
Where in each bracket would comprise of:
- 1 "tourney levelled" match (No items, "safe" levels only)
- 1 "defaulted" match (All items on to medium, any level OK)
And aggregate winner by +/- (else go to a compromised match, limited items to low & limitedstages to break a tie)

That way we could sort quell the complaints (yeah right. :lol )

 

[TJ Spyke]

I tried to get SSBB today. I called all 3 Sears stores (the ones confirmed to be selling early across the country). 2 of them said they didn't have the game (of coarse) while 1 said they were sold out, which implies they DID have copies available .

 

[Tathanen]

You complained later on about people seeing things in black-and-white terms, but you're using black-and-white hypotheticals to support your own claim: either they have the advantage and you're running, which is fine, or you have a one point advantage and you're running, which is not fine (according to you). But what if the person running has a two point advantage, or three points? Or what if the two players are relatively even? What if they're exactly even, and the person running is just trying to force the match to sudden death? This is the issue that's being raised.

I can't believe I'm being asked to give a list of clear rules that define "playing as a coward." I thought it would be pretty clear. Apparently I was mistaken.

If there are like 15 seconds left, run all you like. If you're trying to maintain a lead near the end, fine. But if you're basically trying to stop actual playing of the game by running for minutes on end, you're being a douche. Don't ask me for more specifics, this is a pretty clear fucking statement here. I'm not making you a chart.

My argument is "don't be a douche," not "here is what a douche is, don't do that." If you lack the empathy to see what exactly constitutes douchbaggery, feel free to put together a survey on your own time. Or just note my tone at the moment, I'm being a bit of a douche right now! That's what happens when people seriously ask me questions on par with "but in what circumstances shouldn't I pee on my neighbor's lawn?"

some of you guys seem to take this stuff really seriously, but with my friends it was always just a simple rule, whether we're playing wiffle ball or Halo - you play to win but don't be a douche about it. Douches get punches.

This is exactly it. This kind of play would never be tolerated in a group of friends, they'd either look at you and go "what the fuck are you doing" or just push you right off the couch. I don't see why it would be okay to do it in a competitive setting.

 

[HK-47]

You just made the problem more obvious. Your rules are only good on paper

 

[Tathanen]

Except you dont have any experience with the scene with which you bitch and moan about, so you are uninformed. There are glitches and tactics that are banned or frowned upon and even more that can turn the match but require very specific conditions or tremendous skill to set up. The smash scene is self made, and doesnt have enough refs for every event, and yes its harder to to determine what is fair and what is not then you say.
The rules of the current smash scene apply to that scene but that doesnt mean people cant use items or what not in another league if they choose to run it. The current rules have worked well so far. You complain about stages but you dont realize that many stages actually elimate characters from being played do to severe disadvantages, eliminating the numbers of character that can even compete. All stages are meant to be fun but not all run by rules of fair play. If you present an overwhelming advantage to a certain character, should the players not take advantage of it?

Newsflash, hot shot. I have plenty of experience with the "scene," which is why I bitch and moan about it. For the record, what I'm arguing against isn't the entire scene itself, but the things that people in this thread are talking about. The mentality of its more vocal members, not the actual existing rulesets.

You just got through snidely telling me to bugger off since my "ethics" aren't supported by what you perceive competitive smash to be. Why, then, are you now explaining to me that certain styles of play are indeed banned or frowned upon? Make up your mind, is running away for an entire match because of the money or reward okay, or isn't it?

You just made the problem more obvious. Your rules are only good on paper

But see, they're not rules. I'm not trying to make a set of rules! I'm just asking people to THINK for a second. Think, this thing your doing, is this just being a dick? If it is, maybe don't do it!

 

[HK-47]

Now you arent even addressing my points and instead are taking potshots at me. How can I take you seriously?

 

[scottnak]

Honestly guys, we've had this debate over and over. If you want to quibble more, take it outside or to PMs or whatever.

No-one's going to budge. No-one's going to come to an epiphany. Nothing's gonna change...

[e] And for god sakes noone reply saying "I'm glad to stop but the other guy clearly wont."

 

[Jiggy]

The Great and Roughly Half-Done Smash Bros. Dojo Thread Quote Hunt

Posts 1-2,500: scottnak
Posts 2,501-5,000: Jiggy37
Posts 5,001-7,500: bombcar
Posts 7,501-10,000: scottnak (edit: yay scottnak, the Quote Hunt MVP)
Posts 10,001-12,500: Danthrax
Posts 12,501-15,000: scottnak
Posts 15,001-17,500: Syth_Blade22 (40% done)
Posts 17,501-20,000: Iam Canadian (nearly done)
Posts 20,001-22,500: Man God
Posts 22,501-25,000: RoboPlato (partly done)
Posts 25,001-27,500: Keru_Shiri
Posts 27,501-30,000: crowphoenix (1500/2500 down)
Posts 30,001-32,500: Cerebral Assassin
Posts 32,501-35,000: NickP786
Posts 35,001-37,500: Fenix (60% done)
Posts 37,501-40,000: Iam Canadian
Posts 40,001-42,500: Guled
Posts 42,501-45,000: dude (nearly done)
Posts 45,001-47,500: Man God
Posts 47,501-50,000: possibly reserved for pulga?
Posts 50,001-52,500: Keru_Shiri
Posts 52,501-55,000:
Posts 55,001-57,500: Jiggy37
Posts 57,501-60,000: Jiggy37


If we don't finish by the time the thread's about to get closed, I'll just put up what everyone had already collected. Just fair warning, since I have no idea when that time will come. Maybe sooner than later, at the rate we're going. :lol Not that I'm helping!

I can't believe I'm being asked to give a list of clear rules that define "playing as a coward."

I wasn't asking that. Those were rhetorical questions leading to the last sentence, which was the real point: you can't say some things are clearly wrong and some things are clearly not and then conveniently dismiss all the middle ground as something that everybody has some inherent ability to agree upon--especially when some people clearly don't agree upon it. You're talking about ethics being necessary, but at the same time you seem to believe that these ethics can't be set out in writing and are only held in the mind. How can that sort of thinking lead to respectable and consistent competitions, given that everybody has different conceptions of what constitutes cheapness?

Also, I never used the term "playing like a coward," since I think there's no such thing.


Edit:

Honestly guys, we've had this debate over and over. If you want to quibble more, take it outside or to PMs or whatever.

No-one's going to budge. No-one's going to come to an epiphany. Nothing's gonna change...

Would it help if I started posting my arguments in haiku?

 

[Tathanen]

Now you arent even addressing my points and instead are taking potshots at me. How can I take you seriously?

Okay!

You complain about stages but you dont realize that many stages actually elimate characters from being played do to severe disadvantages, eliminating the numbers of character that can even compete. All stages are meant to be fun but not all run by rules of fair play. If you present an overwhelming advantage to a certain character, should the players not take advantage of it?

So stages are banned because they can give unfair advantage or disadvantage to certain characters, yes? In that case, why is Final Destination not banned? It gives significant advantage to those characters with the highest running speed: Falcon and Fox. Due to a total lack of ground obstructions or platforms for other characters to retreat to, Falcon can run across a stage at great speed, and perform any number of speedy knee or d-air combos that would be less feasible on other stages.

Lucario, by using his up-b into a wall grab, can hide beneath Final Destination, and presumably jump around down there as long as he likes. Clearly this is advantageous for him. So what will be banned? Him, or the stage?

The point is, there will ALWAYS be advantages or disadvantages for every character on every stage. None of these are so severe, though, that they warrant outright bannings.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

This kind of play would never be tolerated in a group of friends, they'd either look at you and go "what the fuck are you doing" or just push you right off the couch. I don't see why it would be okay to do it in a competitive setting.

Because competition is about winning and isn't a friendly environment.

 

[Tathanen]

I wasn't asking that. Those were rhetorical questions leading to the last sentence, which was the real point: you can't say some things are clearly wrong and some things are clearly not and then conveniently dismiss all the middle ground as something that everybody has some inherent ability to agree upon--especially when some people clearly don't agree upon it. You're talking about ethics being necessary, but at the same time you seem to believe that these ethics can't be set out in writing and are only held in the mind. How can that sort of thinking lead to respectable and consistent competitions, given that everybody has different conceptions of what constitutes cheapness?

It's true, ethics are arbitrary, which makes it virtually impossible to enforce. I'd like to think, however, that we can all get a feel for what's being a dick and what's not, if we play the game long enough. I mean, I think any basketball player can likely figure out without much prodding that bouncing the ball off another guy's head is a dick move. I'd like to think that the most obvious and GLARINGLY dickish things could be more or less agreed upon. Again, my point wasn't so much to lay down precisely what those things were, but to argue against those who were saying it's okay to be a dick, not that running away wasn't a dick move. I mean, that's pretty much what that one guy's entire competitive gaming philosophy is, that's been cited here a few times. "Be a complete and total douche if that's what it takes to win."

Five occurrences of the word "dick" in one paragraph? Another Dojo thread record!

 

[scottnak]

Edit:
Would it help if I started posting my arguments in haiku?

I would think that would be quite interesting. A HAIKU-OFF to get this debate under control. Maximum of 3 Haikus to illustrate your point. An opponent must then rebutt. Then reply! *shrug*

10 pages to go til I'm done with my part. Whew.

 

[Firestorm]

Tathanen, referees are there to enforce what's against the rules in a game. Those rules are in almost all cases clearly defined. Same with Brawl. Rules are made that are clearly defined. It's when you start making rules that aren't clearly defined (as in the one we're talking about now) that you run into issues.

Have you tried playing it free4all or just 1v1, cause the camping comment makes it seem like a 1v1 issue.

Of course, I haven't played at all, so I have no opinion yet, but it looks like fun. And I hated Pokefloats.

It was a free for all actually. Stupid nanananannananana man was in the little area and I couldn't get to him and was forced to fight someone else who iirc, was kicking my ass!

Me too. To me, the tru Smash champ will be determined in a tournament with all stages available and all items on.

For Firestorm's tournament, I don't think it's fair to ban all items. Maybe just ban certain ones (like Bob-ombs and Smart Bombs), just keep the Smash Ball in.

Is there anyone set to officially create the tournament after Firestorm's? If not, I would be willing to help.

Can you stop with the true Smash champ crap already with regards to items already =/ Unless you're kidding of course, in which case my bad. The top in Melee would dominate with or without items. The reason items are off is because it creates inconsistent results when the top players play each other. Items were tested in a tournament environment back in 2002. Did not work. It might work in Brawl and I know at least one influential Smash Back Room member (gimpyfish) is for giving at the very least smashballs a chance.

I don't want to get into an items debate too much. I personally don't find items fun so I think I'd be too biased in a debate about them in Brawl. But sorry, for this tournament I plan to keep items off. We'll have items some other time

There's no way all stages will ever be allowed. I can already see some stages that warrant banning (Dammit Sakurai why would you give star as a reward in WarioWare), but I believe we should start out with as little bans as possible.

NeoGAF SSBB Tournament #1 will be Singles, No items, All stages.
Potential Neutral Stage List of what I'm allowed to post since I'm pretty sure I'm in the Dojo Thread: Halberd, Delfino Plaza, Final Destination, Battlefield, Castle Siege, Yoshi's Island, Smashville.

 

[HK-47]

Add Luigi's Mansion and

Spoiler

Pokemon Stadium

to the neutral stage list. Delfino would be better as counterpick. Maybe Circuit for neutral too? Warioware, Spear Pillar, Mario Bros, and a couple of the unrevealed stages would probably be better off left out. Also your call on the big two.

 

[Jiggy]

If players say ban
but game mechanics allow
the game should win out

Exploits? Not for me,
nor yet begrudging others
who accept them all

Arbitrary rules
are defensible because
consistency wins

 

[Tathanen]

Tathanen, referees are there to enforce what's against the rules in a game. Those rules are in almost all cases clearly defined. Same with Brawl. Rules are made that are clearly defined. It's when you start making rules that aren't clearly defined (as in the one we're talking about now) that you run into issues.

I'm not saying that my stuff CAN'T be quantified, I just don't really care to get into it right now. Sure, we could define the exact amount of time you can run away from a guy with exactly how many points you're in the lead before you get penalized, but that would only be meaningful if Smash HAD referees. Which it doesn't. So all we can really do is try an instill a sense of good judgment within the players.

 

[Firestorm]

Add Luigi's Mansion and ---------- to the neutral stage list. Delfino would be better as counterpick. Maybe Circuit for neutral too? Warioware, Spear Pillar, Mario Bros, and a couple of the unrevealed stages would probably be better off left out. Also your call on the big two.

We still aren't allowed to post stuff in spoiler tags iirc. That stage is the one I was referring to as neutral though.

No to Luigi's Mansion. The platforms in that stage actually cannot be passed through in many places and the weird columns make it just an overall weird stage I'd leave as counterpick. Delfino is borderline counterpick/neutral. I might go either way on it.

I'm leaving them all unless I get a lot of people wanting certain stages banned. In reality, I don't expect anyone to actually counter-pick them because a lot of the banned stages aren't that fun in the first place >_> Like seriously, would anyone here pick Icicle Mountain of Flat Zone in Melee? I didn't think so!

 

[HK-47]

We still aren't allowed to post stuff in spoiler tags iirc. That stage is the one I was referring to as neutral though.

No to Luigi's Mansion. The platforms in that stage actually cannot be passed through in many places and the weird columns make it just an overall weird stage I'd leave as counterpick. Delfino is borderline counterpick/neutral. I might go either way on it.

I'm leaving them all unless I get a lot of people wanting certain stages banned. In reality, I don't expect anyone to actually counter-pick them because a lot of the banned stages aren't that fun in the first place >_> Like seriously, would anyone here pick Icicle Mountain of Flat Zone in Melee? I didn't think so!

I'd easily go with Mountain if I was playing someone with great vert recov versus someone like Bowser or DK. And Flat Zone with Fox or against lightweights? Definitely

 

[Firestorm]

I'm not saying that my stuff CAN'T be quantified, I just don't really care to get into it right now. Sure, we could define the exact amount of time you can run away from a guy with exactly how many points you're in the lead before you get penalized, but that would only be meaningful if Smash HAD referees. Which it doesn't. So all we can really do is try an instill a sense of good judgment within the players.

The thing with defining how much time is that the best strategy then becomes run away for that amount of time minus one second. It's a endless cycle. Smash Tournaments' referees are whoever is running the thing. They make the final call on stuff like Jigglypuff or Peach excessively stalling a match (doable on any stage =/).

I'd easily go with Mountain if I was playing someone with great vert recov versus someone like Bowser or DK. And Flat Zone with Fox or against lightweights? Definitely

It's okay. At this point in Brawl, I'd be doing a disservice to the game if I banned stages before broken techniques proved to be broken. So far the only really broken things would be Dedede's chain throw or Falco's laser lock which I hope we find a way to get around soon!

 

[HK-47]

The thing with defining how much time is that the best strategy then becomes run away for that amount of time minus one second. It's a endless cycle. Smash Tournaments' referees are whoever is running the thing. They make the final call on stuff like Jigglypuff or Peach excessively stalling a match (doable on any stage =/).

I dont think either can anymore. And wall clinging isnt inifinite either so thats no problem

 

[HK-47]

Dedede chain throw isnt broken. And Pikachu and Fox's (near) infinite wall combos are just as likely and dangerous if not moreso than the laser lock.