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[MisterHero]

How would Raphael the Raven's Moon or a Galaxy stage work? I think it's an interesting idea in theory, but I'm not certain it would work in practice. I think there would have to be too many changes to the way the game plays.

Everything would be the same, except instead of gravity pulling towards the bottom of the screen, it would pull towards the moon's center, and all the characters would play normally. The only adjusting there'd have to be would be remembering to control like you're on flat ground when fighting on the sides or the bottom.

And there can be pegs on all sides where you if you Meteor-smash them they bust out the other side and Star KO people who are standing on it!

 

[crowphoenix]

I'd be pretty crushed if Marth didn't make a return. Talk about a bad-ass character that was top tier. Going by the videos, Ike is like a shitted on, slow, boring version of Marth. Plus, there was no greater feeling than pulling off the final wing of the B-Sideways combos. I wonder is Ike will have those...

Speed isn't the only skill in the game. A strong character can do just as good in the hands of a talented player. I like Ike because he's slow and powerful, and I know I'll be able to use him well.

 

[teddyboi]

Speed isn't the only skill in the game. A strong character can do just as good in the hands of a talented player. I like Ike because he's slow and powerful, and I know I'll be able to use him well.

I don't know, but it just sounds off-brand when you say you like Ike because he's slow. He'd be better with speed. True, he might be able to hold up without it. But he'd be better with it. Speed=advantage, at least in Smash Bros.

Ike's side special is apparently something like Fox's side special.

Really? Must've missed that. Link? I know his standard B attack seems to be more powerful than Marth's by looking at some of those E for All videos.

 

[crowphoenix]

I don't know, but it just sounds off-brand when you say you like Ike because he's slow. He'd be better with speed. True, he might be able to hold up without it. But he'd be better with it. Speed=advantage.

I like Ike because I can control him better. The faster the is the harder they are to control or make precise movements. The advantage of speed can be negated with the ability to precive the speed of both yourself and others while using proper timing. Speedy characters are also usually light, which means they get knocked about easier. So me disliking speed just means I don't prescribe to the Pros definition of best.

 

[teddyboi]

I like Ike because I can control him better. The faster the is the harder they are to control or make precise movements. The advantage of speed can be negated with the ability to precive the speed of both yourself and others while using proper timing. Speedy characters are also usually light, which means they get knocked about easier. So me disliking speed just means I don't prescribe to the Pros definition of best.

Yes, but your logic for liking Ike in the first place was that a talented player can compensate for his slowness. A talented player can definately control a speedy character and connect his/her attacks with all the proper timing and what not. So, I still believe the talented player controlling the speedier/powerful character has the advantage over the slow/powerful character. And I think in smash bros, the size of the character constitutes his weight, not his speed. Correct me if I'm wrong.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I'm guessing we'll see more Melee stages than SSB stages.

So...

Melee stages:

Onett
Hyrule Temple
Fountain of Dreams
Super Mario Bros. 2
Brinstar Depths
Pokémon Floats

SSB stages:

Hyrule Castle
Super Mario Bros.
Great Fox

 

[crowphoenix]

Yes, but your logic for liking Ike in the first place was that a talented player can compensate for his slowness. A talented player can definately control a speedy character and connect his/her attacks with all the proper timing and what not. So, I still believe the talented player controlling the speedier/powerful character has the advantage over the slow/powerful character. And I think in smash bros, the size of the character constitutes his weight, not his speed. Correct me if I'm wrong.

But speed characters often have less power. Marth and Fox are much less powerful than Ganondorf or Bowser. A talented player can compensate, but talent might not cover the whole spetrum. A person may be talented at using powerful characters in fighting games rather than speedy ones, while another may be the exact opposite. It all depends on what you want.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Yes, but your logic for liking Ike in the first place was that a talented player can compensate for his slowness. A talented player can definately control a speedy character and connect his/her attacks with all the proper timing and what not. So, I still believe the talented player controlling the speedier/powerful character has the advantage over the slow/powerful character. And I think in smash bros, the size of the character constitutes his weight, not his speed. Correct me if I'm wrong.

This makes the weird assumption that talent is an objective scale. Like you're either talented, if we put it in numerical values it would be a 90, or you're not, which would be a 10.

There are different kinds of talent. Just because someone's good at the game does not mean they are good with speedy characters.

 

[teddyboi]

But speed characters often have less power. Marth and Fox are much less powerful than Ganondorf or Bowser. A talented player can compensate, but talent might not cover the whole spetrum. A person may be talented at using powerful characters in fighting games rather than speedy ones, while another may be the exact opposite. It all depends on what you want.

Captain Falcon says speed doesn't necessarily=less power. Even Marth, true he wasn't as powerful as Bowser and Ganondorf, but he was pretty damn powerful. He was faster than characters like Mario, Pikachu, Kirby, Zelda, Ice Climbers, Mewtwo, Ness, Peach etc. and I'd say he was more powerful than all of them. That's what made him an elite character in Melee. He was fast and powerful. I'd put him with similar strength with Samus, and he was faster than Samus. It's like you're trying to apply a general rule that because a character has speed, he loses his power. Marth evades your rule.

This makes the weird assumption that talent is an objective scale. Like you're either talented, if we put it in numerical values it would be a 90, or you're not, which would be a 10.

There are different kinds of talent. Just because someone's good at the game does not mean they are good with speedy characters.

All I'm saying is that certain attributes (in this case, speed) can make a character better in general. Which is why I personally believe that if Ike was faster, he'd be a better character. (This is based on what I've seen of Ike in action.) He's like a dumbed down Marth, with possibly a little more power. Overall, worse character.

But yea, people can be good with different characters based on their given attributes. But I still think there are tiers in Smash Bros.

 

[Iam Canadian]

That's mostly an indication of Melee's flaws in balance. In general, the rule should be speed = less power.

 

[Suburban Cowboy]

they better give us Saffron City back from the original smash

 

[crowphoenix]

Captain Falcon says speed doesn't necessarily=less power. Even Marth, true he wasn't as powerful as Bowser and Ganondorf, but he was pretty damn powerful. He was faster than characters like Mario, Pikachu, Kirby, Zelda, Ice Climbers, Mewtwo, Ness, Peach etc. and I'd say he was more powerful than all of them. That's what made him an elite character in Melee. He was fast and powerful. I'd put him with similar strength with Samus, and he was faster than Samus. It's like you're trying to apply a general rule that because a character has speed, he loses his power. Marth evades your rule.

Really? I play as Marth quite a bit(Because I like his character), and I tend to have a good bit of trouble launching characters with the ease of some of the heavy characters. And yes, as you will probably ask, this is a testament to my skill. However, I am fairly certain that his power is lower than most of the strong characters.

And ask Captain Falcon when he's going to be announced for me. As to his speed, I'd have to go back and mess around a bit with his character, so I'll conceed that point. But I do know that I had thought he was one of the slower ones.

Edit: And Ike is dumbed down because he's slower? He may be slower than Marth, but he's more powerful and has a different move set. How is that dumbed down?

 

[Crushed]

Well, another good argument against K****** being in the game.

I just saw an utterly delightfulpicture of her and Solid Snake; really, just fantastic, that was really what I needed to see.


Imagine how many more will be created if she actually IS a character.

 

[crowphoenix]

Well, another good argument against K****** being in the game.

I just saw an utterly delightfulpicture of her and Solid Snake; really, just fantastic, that was really what I needed to see.


Imagine how many more will be created if she actually IS a character.

Enough to melt your mind.

 

[pulga]

Well, another good argument against K****** being in the game.

I just saw an utterly delightfulpicture of her and Solid Snake; really, just fantastic, that was really what I needed to see.


Imagine how many more will be created if she actually IS a character.

Well you had to be digging in a place you shouldn't have been to find such an abomination :lol

By the way, what the hell is that thing you have as an avatar?

 

[MisterHero]

Does eating Falco, Pikachu, DK, and wearing animal clothes make Kirby furry?

 

[Frozen Fire]

As if he was ever in doubt, I'd say Marth pretty much became guaranteed when he found out Ike was so slow, then guaranteed a second time when Fire Emblem DS was a remake of his game.

If someone asked me if Marth was in after Ike was released, I'd say no. Now though...He might actually have a chance to be in. However, if Marth's in, Roy's chances are pretty slim.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

That's mostly an indication of Melee's flaws in balance. In general, the rule should be speed = less power.

Then again you'd have to factor in staying power (I don't think a fast and powerful character that would be really easy to kill would qualify as broken) and define "speed", as in movement speed/attack speed.

But I do know that I had thought he was one of the slower ones.

Nah, you just kept seeing the same scene in slow-mo because it was so painful. This is a common phenomenon known as post-Knee trauma.

 

[crowphoenix]

Then again you'd have to factor in staying power (I don't think a fast and powerful character that would be really easy to kill would qualify as broken) and define "speed", as in movement speed/attack speed.



Nah, you just kept seeing the same scene in slow-mo because it was so painful. This is a common phenomenon known as post-Knee trauma.

Ahhh. That explains much. It also explains the dreams. The horible horble dreams. Something yellow rushing towards my face. I feel panic and fear. And I wake up screaming.

 

[KevinCow]

It's like you're trying to apply a general rule that because a character has speed, he loses his power. Marth evades your rule.

And that's what makes him unbalanced and overpowered. He has above average speed with at least average strength. This isn't how it should be. Fast characters should be less powerful, and slow characters should be more powerful. This was a general rule in Melee, as Fox, Marth, Falco, and Sheik weren't as powerful as Bowser, DK, and Ganondorf, but the problem was that the faster characters were too powerful for their speed, and the slower characters weren't powerful enough to compensate for their lack of speed. Hopefully this is fixed in Brawl, and the game is more balanced than Melee was.

 

[Crushed]

Well you had to be digging in a place you shouldn't have been to find such an abomination :lol

By the way, what the hell is that thing you have as an avatar?

+

=

 

[teddyboi]

Really? I play as Marth quite a bit(Because I like his character), and I tend to have a good bit of trouble launching characters with the ease of some of the heavy characters. And yes, as you will probably ask, this is a testament to my skill. However, I am fairly certain that his power is lower than most of the strong characters.

And ask Captain Falcon when he's going to be announced for me. As to his speed, I'd have to go back and mess around a bit with his character, so I'll conceed that point. But I do know that I had thought he was one of the slower ones.

Edit: And Ike is dumbed down because he's slower? He may be slower than Marth, but he's more powerful and has a different move set. How is that dumbed down?

Marth has a weak throw for some strange reason. But his Standard Special attack is powerful as are his normal and smash attacks. I would put Marth in a category that is one step lower than the categories that Ganondorf, Bowser and DK are in(in terms of power), which means he is still pretty powerful, and more powerful than the majority of the characters in the game.

And what does Captain Falcon not being announced yet have to do with this discussion? You lost me there. Captain Falcon is probably the fastest character in the game besides Sheik, Fox and Falco. His sprint is the fastest in the game.

Ike has a similar moveset to Marth. He is definately unique in some ways but he is close enough for me to make the claim that he is a dumbed down Marth.

 

[KittenMaster]

Reading GimpyFish's impressions, Ike is nerfed because he isn't slow like Roy... He's slower than Melee Bowser and his attacks have huge amount of lag, apparently. It'll take a very different kind of person to play Ike unless they tweak him after seeing his performance at E for All.

 

[Insaniac]

From the e for all impressions, throws are still not finishers like they were in 64 (save for a few like peach) right?

 

[pulga]

+

=

Still have no idea what the hell that is; looks like some kind of Pokeyman reject.

 

[Holy Order Sol]

Ike has a similar moveset to Marth. He is definately unique in some ways but he is close enough for me to make the claim that he is a dumbed down Marth.

Isn't Counter the only move they share ? Also, a weak throw... maybe damage-wise in itself, but as a setup... I think it has more range than it looks, too.

KittenMaster : IIRC Gimpyfish also mentioned that the problem with Ike's moves wasn't so much the lag after performing them as it was their startup-time. Even Melee Bowser had a few quick moves. This is just horrible.

 

[Crushed]

Still have no idea what the hell that is; looks like some kind of Pokeyman reject.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OLRG4G979Hg

 

[KevinCow]

Reading GimpyFish's impressions, Ike is nerfed because he isn't slow like Roy... He's slower than Melee Bowser and his attacks have huge amount of lag, apparently. It'll take a very different kind of person to play Ike unless they tweak him after seeing his performance at E for All.

But on top of being slow, Melee Bowser had ridiculously short reach, and his attacks weren't really strong enough to offset this. Plus Ike has the heavy shield for some moves, which I think is going to be integral too playing as him. He didn't perform very well at E4All because people didn't understand the heavy shield. When the game finally comes out, people will fiddle with it and learn it. Once they get how to use it and develop strategies around it, we'll see a vast improvement over Ike's performance.

I would put Marth in a category that is one step lower than the categories that Ganondorf, Bowser and DK are in(in terms of power), which means he is still pretty powerful, and more powerful than the majority of the characters in the game.

And you see this as a good thing? It's unbalanced. Why would you want the game to be unbalanced?

 

[crowphoenix]

Ike has a similar moveset to Marth. He is definately unique in some ways but he is close enough for me to make the claim that he is a dumbed down Marth.

But that's the problem, he isn't dumbed down like you claim. He's stronger than Marth, but he's slower. His sword more than cuts Marth's range advatage that he had over others. Ike is also a sturdier character, which means he's going to be tougher to launch and knock out. While Marth can be knocked out fairly easily with a strong character.

I would imagine a person who is talented with Ike would be able to go toe to toe with Marth fairly easily as long as they plan and compensate for Marth's speed.

 

[teddyboi]

But that's the problem, he isn't dumbed down like you claim. He's stronger than Marth, but he's slower. His sword more than cuts Marth's range advatage that he had over others. Ike is also a sturdier character, which means he's going to be tougher to launch and knock out. While Marth can be knocked out fairly easily with a strong character.

I would imagine a person who is talented with Ike would be able to go toe to toe with Marth fairly easily as long as they plan and compensate for Marth's speed.

Well, I guess slowness is all good in your book. Not in mine.

 

[crowphoenix]

Well, I guess slowness is all good in your book. Not in mine.

You've learned people are different. Good for you. Maybe now we can have civil matches on-line between Ike and Marth without all this gimped bullshit. But, I will conceed that Marth is a good fighter. I do enjoy using him.

Now, I'm going to play Zack and Wiki as I had planned all night.

 

[teddyboi]

You've learned people are different. Good for you. Maybe now we can have civil matches on-line between Ike and Marth without all this gimped bullshit.

:lol Guaranteed loss for you.

 

[Gully State]

Travis Touchdown in smash? That would be hilarious..

 

[Fireblend]

Still have no idea what the hell that is; looks like some kind of Pokeyman reject.

You're missing out on the greatness that is Gurren Lagann, then.

 

[SuperAngelo64]

Slow Brutish characters are probably the most misunderstood and underrated characters in all of gaming.

They're not about massive combos and flying around like a bee. They're about being conservative with your attacks and striking at the perfect moment to destroy your opponent.

 

[teddyboi]

Slow Brutish characters are probably the most misunderstood and underrated characters in all of gaming.

They're not about massive combos and flying around like a bee. They're about being conservative with your attacks and striking at the perfect moment to destroy your opponent.

Name ONE of these "underrated" characters that is successfully and widely used in Smash Bros.

 

[KevinCow]

Name ONE of these "underrated" characters that is successfully and widely used in Smash Bros.

There aren't any, but that's because, as I have mentioned several times now, the game is unbalanced.

 

[teddyboi]

There aren't any, but that's because, as I have mentioned several times now, the game is unbalanced.

I mean yea but it's nearly impossible to make a fighting game where every character is relatively equal. Especially when characters have different fighting styles and moves.

 

[Insaniac]

What would be awesome for a super mario galaxy level is a comet or planetoid that hurls through various galaxies, causing the gravity, hazards or play environment to change. Meanwhile we get the goodness of mario galaxy music from all different galaxies!

*drools*

 

[SuperAngelo64]

Name ONE of these "underrated" characters that is successfully and widely used in Smash Bros.

Ganondorf. If you disagree with that then you've never seen the insane shitstorm of ass kicking Ganondorf can unleash in the hands of a good player.

And I was referring to gaming in general.

 

[KevinCow]

You probably can't get it perfect, but you can get it closer than it was in Melee.

In SSB64, speed wasn't as big a decider as it is in Melee. The top tier characters were probably Pikachu, Kirby, and Ness, and out of the three, Pikachu was the only one with particularly notable speed.

Melee's been out for a while now, and it's developed a community that's dug deeper into the game than anyone ever dug into SSB64. It's pretty clear where the weaknesses in balance lie, and I'm certain Sakurai will do what he can to fix it. He's already shown that he's trying to balance the bigger characters more with the heavy armor, and we've seen that Fox is relatively toned down. In all the videos that I've seen from E4All, it seems like the game's pretty balanced so far. Sonic and Fox weren't dominating like you'd expect them to, being such fast characters, and Bowser was actually doing pretty well. And I'm certain that they're heavily playtesting the game, adjusting little values for every character, trying to get it as balanced as possible.

 

[A Link to the Past]

I'd love to see a "No Hazards" mode.

Not too much of a point to it, but I can't imagine that it'd be so hard to implement.

 

[KittenMaster]

I would love to see no hazards as well, simply because people would play on stages other than Hyrule Temple if we had it.

 

[Stuneseht]

What would be awesome for a super mario galaxy level is a comet or planetoid that hurls through various galaxies, causing the gravity, hazards or play environment to change. Meanwhile we get the goodness of mario galaxy music from all different galaxies!

*drools*

The thing that bothers me is why didn't Nintendo design or show levels with Galaxy in mind. Galaxy was in development for quite some time; it was even proposed as a launch title.

To prove my point or misunderstanding, the most recent iteration of the console Zelda is Twilight princess; it has a level in the game. To my knowledge, the previous iteration of the console Zelda- the wind waker doesn't have a level within the game.
So why would Nintendo design or show levels from Mario's past console iteration - Sunshine.

To be honest, I have no problem with the decisions, but a galaxy stage would be awesome.
Especially, Something involving the lights from Bowser's final stage.

 

[teddyboi]

Ganondorf. If you disagree with that then you've never seen the insane shitstorm of ass kicking Ganondorf can unleash in the hands of a good player.

And I was referring to gaming in general.

That doesn't prove anything. People who excel at sports games can compete with the worst teams. That doesn't make those teams any less bad.

You probably can't get it perfect, but you can get it closer than it was in Melee.

In SSB64, speed wasn't as big a decider as it is in Melee. The top tier characters were probably Pikachu, Kirby, and Ness, and out of the three, Pikachu was the only one with particularly notable speed.

Melee's been out for a while now, and it's developed a community that's dug deeper into the game than anyone ever dug into SSB64. It's pretty clear where the weaknesses in balance lie, and I'm certain Sakurai will do what he can to fix it. He's already shown that he's trying to balance the bigger characters more with the heavy armor, and we've seen that Fox is relatively toned down. In all the videos that I've seen from E4All, it seems like the game's pretty balanced so far. Sonic and Fox weren't dominating like you'd expect them to, being such fast characters, and Bowser was actually doing pretty well. And I'm certain that they're heavily playtesting the game, adjusting little values for every character, trying to get it as balanced as possible.

Well I agree with you. If more balance means less sucky characters and better competition I'm all for that.

 

[Jiggy]

To my knowledge, the previous iteration of the console Zelda- the wind waker doesn't have a level within the game.

You've reminded me how much I want Dragon Roost Isle or Outset Island in this game. I'd also settle for just the music from either.

 

[Stuneseht]

You've reminded me how much I want Dragon Roost Isle or Outset Island in this game. I'd also settle for just the music from either.

I feel the same way.

 

[SuperAngelo64]

That doesn't prove anything. People who excel at sports games can compete with the worst teams. That doesn't make those teams any less bad.

Ok then I'll just rephrase myself and say "Ganondorf is a good character."

There? How's that?

Oh, and before you flatter yourself by thinking I'm trying to appease you; I'm not.

 

[A Link to the Past]

Does anyone still make MP3s of the music?

 

[Insaniac]

I hope and i believe that the balance is part of the cause of the delay. Being an online title, and a BIG competitive online title, balance will be extremely important. Nothing would be more annoying then hopping into a random game and seeing the same 3-4 top tier units being used every time.