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[Jiggy]

I think the issue, Jiggy, is you're getting "games sold" confused with "iconic to that series".

Just because more people own a game that contains, say, Hypno than own Halo does not mean Hypno is more well known than Master Chief.

Everybody who's played the Pokemon games has to see both genders take an active role in every game, either as an NPC or the main hero. I won't go as far as to say that Piplup, Charmander, Chikorita, and the other starters are as iconic as Master Chief, but to me they'd be a closer comparison to the trainers than Hypno, just because everybody has to encounter them. [Edit: Well, Charmander's a terrible example because it probably is as iconic as MC.]


Then again, I've never actually interacted with the crazy preteen part of the Pokemon fanbase, so maybe I'm way off-base here in assuming that most people pay attention to the humans in the series like I do.

 

[pulga]

Know what would be interesting? If someone could tally up total sales for games featuring Classic Wario and those for the Wario Ware series. Stats-Master Jiggy, maybe you're the man up for this challenge?

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Everybody who's played the Pokemon games has to see both genders take an active role in every game, either as an NPC or the main hero. I won't go as far as to say that Piplup, Charmander, Chikorita, and the other starters are as iconic as Master Chief, but to me they'd be a closer comparison to the trainers than Hypno, just because everybody has to encounter them. [Edit: Well, Charmander's a terrible example because it probably is/ as iconic as MC.]


Then again, I've never actually interacted with the crazy preteen part of the Pokemon fanbase, so maybe I'm way off-base here in assuming that most people pay attention to the humans in the series like I do.

I think you're looking a bit through the Pokemon fangoggles.

Just because they are people they've interacted with in the games doesn't mean much to anyone. There aren't people clamoring for, say, Bill assist trophies or Team Magma characters.

 

[Jiggy]

Know what would be interesting? If someone could tally up total sales for games featuring Classic Wario and those for the Wario Ware series. Stats-Master Jiggy, maybe you're the man up for this challenge?

I wish I was a master of Sales-Age since it's honestly my favorite part of GAF, but I have no idea how guys like donny, Joshua, etc. get their figures. :/ About all I could do is point toward Joshua's page, but that only covers back to a certain date and would exclude a significant portion of classic Wario games... Edit: And even then, it would mostly be limited to Japanese sales.

 

[HK-47]

I don't see how that makes it the most famous alternate outfit they could possibly put in the game. You'd have to stack multiple Mario sports games and Mario Party together to reach the selling power of a single given Pokemon game. Even then, Haruka/May and Hikari/Dawn have the additional fame support of the anime (which even the current Pokemon Trainer doesn't).


Edit: They aren't "from" the anime--the anime characters were designed after the game.

I don't see how that makes it the most famous alternate outfit they could possibly put in the game. You'd have to stack multiple Mario sports games and Mario Party together to reach the selling power of a single given Pokemon game. Even then, Haruka/May and Hikari/Dawn have the additional fame support of the anime (which even the current Pokemon Trainer doesn't).


Edit: They aren't "from" the anime--the anime characters were designed after the game.

XFD @ "selling power" Does PT female have a static character design? No. Did she appear in R/B/G or G/S, easily the most successful entries in the series? No.

Meanwhile, Wario debuts as a villian in SML 2, which sells over 10 million copies (more than PT Female's debut game by quite a margin, if you wanna drag sales in) then goes on to star in his own mulitple million selling franchise, while appearing in every Mario spinoff under the sun, in the purple overalls, thus netting him multiple times more recognizability over generic PT female. Oh and you underestimate the sales of Mario spinoffs especially Mario Kart.

Wario has an identity and most people know the character through his classic attire. Most people know the Pokemon Trainer through the boy in the red cap

 

[Baryn]

Awesome, I hate the WarioWare costume.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Classic Wario does probably outrank any individual female Pokemon Trainer in sales, since you're forced to include Mario Party.

 

[DarkKyo]

I was hoping they'd do this for Wario.. Looks cool!

 

[Keru_Shiri]

But including a gal has been a standard feature since Crystal version. In addition, it would be easy to add, and have no effect on Kirby hats.

 

[pulga]

I wish I was a master of Sales-Age since it's honestly my favorite part of GAF, but I have no idea how guys like donny, Joshua, etc. get their figures. :/ About all I could do is point toward Joshua's page, but that only covers back to a certain date and would exclude a significant portion of classic Wario games... Edit: And even then, it would mostly be limited to Japanese sales.

Damn, would've been interesting to know what by how much of a margin Classic Wario is more recognizable than WW Wario.

And sorry, Jiggy, but I think you're fighting a lost battle. I believe if one were to show a group of people a picture of Girl PT and Wario, Wario would indeed be the more recognizable.

 

[BuddhaRockstar]

Awesome, even more options for my soon to be favorite character!

And to be honest I don't really care if all the pokemon trainer's costumes are male, I mean, he's just this guy hopping around in the background, it's the pokemon I care about.

 

[HK-47]

It would be easy to add any number of costumes. Dark Samus? Doc Mario? Easier than PT female who would need a new model and not just a change of clothes.

 

[MrCheez]

I thought these two pics would look cool side by side:

Pink and light blue Wario FTW!!

 

[Jiggy]

I think you're looking a bit through the Pokemon fangoggles.

Just because they are people they've interacted with in the games doesn't mean much to anyone. There aren't people clamoring for, say, Bill assist trophies or Team Magma characters.

I'm clamoring for a Bill--oh, wait. You mean the one from Pokemon, not Star Fox. Anyway, you're still making comparisons to non-main characters. I wouldn't even put the likes of Lance and Cynthia on par with the selectable heroes, never mind nameless villains and inventors of the box system.

Does PT female have a static character design? No.

In any single given game, yes.

Did she appear in R/B/G or G/S, easily the most successful entries in the series? No.

And our male Pokemon Trainer design comes from FR/LG, the least successful entry in the series.

Meanwhile, Wario star as a villian in SML 2, which selling over 10 million copies then goes on to star in his own mulitple million selling franchise, while appearing in every Mario spinoff under the sun, in the purple overalls, thus netting him multiple times more recognizability over generic PT female. Oh and you underestimate the sales of Mario spinoffs especially Mario Kart.

I realize that I might be underestimating, which you can probably chalk up to me thinking that a significant number of the people buying Mario spinoffs are probably repeat buyers.
i.e. someone who buys both Mario Kart and Mario Party would only count as one new person who recognizes Wario, even though that person could count as 8+ separate sales within the franchise (for example, Mario Kart 64, Mario Kart Double Dash, Mario Kart DS, Mario Party 2, Mario Party 4, and Mario Party 6-8). But admittedly Pokemon has that effect too since a person could (and I do, always!) buy both versions. It's probably hard to gauge.

And sorry, Jiggy, but I think you're fighting a lost battle. I believe if one were to show a group of people a picture of Girl PT and Wario, Wario would indeed be the more recognizable.

I know I'm not going to change any minds, but it's a decently fun way to pass a night.

 

[Azure Dream]

This is great! I was hoping for something like this. But why just Wario? Many characters would benefit from a secondary costume. Mario as Dr. Mario seems like a no-brainer, for one. There's always hope for surprise unlockables, however.

 

[HK-47]

No crap she has a static design in any given game...she's not a fucking Ditto.

I mean she never appears the same way.

Oh and the FR/LG PT model is based on the R/B model. If you've seen the original, the updated version is instantly recognizable...unlike any version of the female

You are missing the point that most people identity Wario as wearing that get up...if they had decided to used the D/P male then adding in the classic look it would have made the same sense. The female Pokemon Trainer doesnt.

 

[Jiggy]

-It's a brand new day here in the Dojo thread: the 155th day of updates, actually, and the 32nd week, and the 188th update overall. With five days remaining before the New Year, can we load up on double (or larger) updates throughout the week and then successfully hit 200 on January 1st? Stay tuned.

-This update is an odd duck and I've created a new classification for it: "Character other." ...Well, that's not so much a new classification as an old classification reworked--I'm combining the rare (and third-party-only?) character movies with this update. Whatever the case, it's the third "character other" update. (Actually, I had just been considering creating this classification for Kirby's Inhale, but ultimately decided against it since in the end it was a special move getting showcased.)

-Wario advances to 6 updates and ties with Kid Icarus, Fire Emblem, Mother, and Metal Gear in terms of Dojo representation. This isn't necessarily saying much; these franchises are pretty close to the bottom of the heap, although not quite there.

-The number of days we've been without a character is now the answer to life, the universe, and everything. 23 days of updates to go until the time when we all flood TreIII with PMs demanding information, that early-game-getting-bum Japanese release date.

 

[scottnak]

Japanese site says "ワリオだけは特別でして" --> Wario only is special...

Personally I like it. Whee!

 

[Keru_Shiri]

You are missing the point that most people identity Wario as wearing that get up...if they had decided to used the D/P male then adding in the classic look it would have made the same sense. The female Pokemon Trainer doesnt.

I don't think a lack of recognition necessarily rules out the PT female. Granted, Wario's original duds are a bit iconic, but who says that's the only reason a character can get a costume? The only evidence that supports this is the "Wario is special" line.

But, I guess we'll have to agree to disagree.

 

[SovanJedi]

Awesome! They've really taken everyone into account haven't they? I'm definitely sticking to this costume whenever I'm playing as Wario.

Er... well they took everyone into account except for you people, it seems. Jeez, what the hell is wrong with you bunch of whiners? So many conclusions being jumped to based on arbitrary connection made by PREVIOUS bitching and idea formulating. It makes me sick. Actually, it makes me sick AGAIN, because I spent the whole weekend with a cold, and just as I wrote "it makes me sick" just then, I think I coughed up a little bit. And that's what I think about you lot. Sick, SICK you are!

If this is the only alternate costume then big deal. They definitely picked the best character to award it to, since Wario has two very recognizably different looks which need representation. And no, female Pokemon Trainers don't count either Jiggy.

 

[psycho_snake]

This is actually a pretty good update. I dont like wario's original costume in brawl. The traditional overalls are so much better,

 

[DDayton]

Predicting new character: Pac-Man

I like the way you think. Keep it up.

 

[Pureauthor]

The female Pokemon trainers are hardly iconic.

Heck, the male Pokemon trainers are hardly iconic either, with the exception of Ash, and for all the wrong reasons.

The icons of Pokemon are (surprise, surprise) the Pokemon.

 

[psycho_snake]

Actually, while I consider myself fairly good with Jigglypuff, I was never able to beat Event 51 with her. Actually, the only character I can do it with is Ness and that's by jumping off the edge and spamming PK Thunder tackles.

Personally, for a Zelda stage, I'd like to see a kind of "Delfino Plaza" kind of stage, with a flying platform (or something) taking the fighters around Hyrule's overworld, visiting all of the classic areas. There could be a Death Mountain area with falling boulders, a Lake Hylia area with classic Zoras spitting fireballs at the combatants, maybe a visit to N64 Hyrule Castle...there are a lot of possibilities.

A Dark World stage would be nice, too. I can see the design of the Pyramid of Power making a good Smash stage.

Thats what I want to see too. They should do it so that you visit each area like you would in the actual zelda game. For insteace, if they made a stage like that for the OoT world, You would start off fighting in Kokori forest, then the platforms move and you get taken to hyrule castle, then you get taken to death mountain and you'll carry on progressing to the next place all the way to ganons castle. Once you're finished there you get taken back to the start and the whole thing is repeated.

 

[DDayton]

Part of me does think it's rather likely that at least one or two other characters will have unlockable extra costumes... like Mario, or Peach...

 

[Rentahamster]

Too bad Wario's the only one like this. It would have been awesome to see the actual Fusion suit for Samus rather than a palette swap. Or perhaps have a Ness alternate for Lucas.

 

[Jiggy]

You are missing the point that most people identity Wario as wearing that get up...

Well, yes, I absolutely agree on that. (And I also agree about it makes as much sense as if they'd chosen the D/P guy and gave him the FR/LG look too.) I've just been suggesting that Wario himself isn't as recognizable as the Pokemon trainers, even though I very well might be the only one in here who believes that.

Controversial as that particular stance might be, I think there's some sort of powerful statement made in the fact that so far we know of six fully unique movesets developed for Smash just from the Pokemon franchise alone (Pikachu, Jigglypuff, Mewtwo, Squirtle, Ivysaur, and Charizard), plus a unique stamina mechanic and almost as many different Poke Balls as the other non-assist trophy items combined. It seems plain to me that there's been loads of pressure for heavy Pokemon fanservice in this series since the very beginning--whereas Wario didn't even enter the picture until Brawl--and I think it's very possible that that pressure might have come from the series being significantly more famous in the modern day. (i.e. Mario Land 2 doesn't count for Wario, R/G/B/Y and G/S/C don't count for Pokemon.)

...There's probably some irony in me arguing against Wario's popularity while simultaneously being the one person in the thread who wants playable Daisy in Brawl. >_> Double irony: I've also been hoping for a long, long time that Pokemon would move away from static designs and put full-on character creation and clothing customization in its main games. (Actually, the character creation in Battle Revolution was the single thing about that "game" that wasn't loathsome--and even then it was still loathsome because of its severely limited options, but at least in theory they finally took one baby step forward.) My open hope is that one day there'll be no such thing as an iconic Pokemon trainer design at all.



In any case, one last thing.

I'm not the sort of person whose mind can't be changed--I probably lose more arguments on GAF than I win (which is why I usually just avoid them in the first place >_>), and when that happens I tend to acknowledge it. I haven't just been arguing here for the sake of standing ground until everyone keels over, but because I might actually learn something from others proving a point to me.

The trouble in this case is that popularity is difficult to gauge in a cold, hard, factual way, so it seems to me that I can't prove anything I say to anybody else, and neither can they prove what they're saying to me. (But I'm open to being proven wrong even about what can be proven!) I can't honestly say it's impossible that you guys are right and that nobody really pays attention to the main human characters in Pokemon games, because I don't read minds and I don't know how the masses view the world. But similarly, I don't think anyone can say it's impossible that all the Pokemon buyers do pay attention to the main human characters and think of them as significant. And same goes for the arguments about Wario on both sides.

...It's probably no coincidence that I always loved studying good old Descartes, with his incessant probes into how we know what we can know. Anyway, it's been fun. Good night.

They definitely picked the best character to award it to, since Wario has two very recognizably different looks which need representation. And no, female Pokemon Trainers don't count either Jiggy.

Actually, I'm pretty sure I never disputed that if there was only one character to get an alternate outfit, it should be Wario. (Though some other people did.) I just disagreed with the idea that he was more famous than the Pokemon trainers.

But yeah, nothing has to be the most famous thing around (whether it's a character or costume or whatever) for me to concede that it deserves to be in the game instead of other more famous things--for example, I'd much rather have Pit and Ike than Bowser Jr. And I'd rather have yellow and purple Wario, AKA real Wario (not that I'm biased!) than a girl Pokemon Trainer, since having the one true version of a character instead of his latter-day retcon redesign is a great cause to fight for.

 

[SouthernDragon]

The only female Pokemon Trainer that's even close to famous is Haruka/May.

You mean Misty, right?

 

[pulga]

Nope, Misty has never been playable, and we're talking about the actual Pokeyman trainers we use in the games.

Aren't we? I just got fuck confused.

 

[Iam Canadian]

Crud. I was so busy playing my DS that I totally forgot about the update. Nuts.

I wonder if Iam Canadian is drinking himself in to a stupor at the possible lack of Ness now

Of course not, because Ness will be a separate playable character.

 

[Jiggy]

On a happier note that less people will disagree with, I really want Justin Bailey Zero Suit Samus for the same reason that I'm happy to see Yellow and Purple Wario--they're both the true, original, canonical, and only acceptable versions of themselves. And unlike Wario, I have more invested in it since there's a slight chance that I might actually play as ZSS regularly. (Doubtful, though; the speedy characters have never been my forte, but they're at least a lot closer to it than heavyweights.)

 

[Man God]

Also to say that the pokemon anime has no effect on Smash would be a false suggestion as clearly it has influenced the voices of the various pokemon who should up. Also, sure Hypno isn't as iconic as Master Chief, but Pikachu sure as shit is. Jigglypuff isn't that far behind either...

 

[Jiggy]

Also to say that the pokemon anime has no effect on Smash would be a false suggestion as clearly it has influenced the voices of the various pokemon who should up.

Yeah, that and which Pokemon make it in to begin with. I had not the slightest idea why Jigglypuff of all characters got into SSB when I unlocked her, and I'm not sure anybody else would either if they didn't live in Japan or know about the show. Oh, and there was also the SSBM Misty trophy that used the anime outfit. Even if not for that, just picking her in the first place to be the only human character for a Pokemon trophy instead of, say, Lance or the Gold/Silver trainer says a lot to me.


Speaking of voices, though, I hope they're smart enough to bring back Rachel Lillis for Brawl. I have no idea who's doing Jigglypuff after the voice actors changed--I don't think there have been any dub episodes with a Jigglypuff since then anyway--but she was good at it and she's recognizable to Smash fans.

 

[Man God]

Anyways, back to the alternate outfits discussions. While I'd enjoy something interesting like Paper Mario, Female PT, Hector with the beard, etc, I'd pretty much straight out murder someone for Liquid Snake, with a definate chance of thuggery if they got Cam Clarke to voice the screams and taunts.

Well, maybe not murder, but I'd be plenty happy.

 

[Iam Canadian]

I don't know, I never really like Justin Bailey Zero Suit Samus. To me, the Zero Suit we see post ZM looks more logical; it actually looks like the kind of suit Samus would wear under her Power Suit (no inexplicable high-heeled boots here).

Personally, besides the already mentioned (and debated) Female Pokemon Trainer, a few other alternates I'd like to see would be Dark Samus (for Samus), Claus (for Lucas, thus leaving a slot for Ness), Dixie Kong (for Diddy), and Metal Sonic (for Sonic). Too bad that Wario is special. D:

 

[NeonZ]

The one good thing about this update is that it raises the chances of clones still being in.

I mean, if clones weren't in, Dr.Mario could easily become a costume for Mario, but it seems like Wario is the only character who has an alternate costume.

 

[Jiggy]

Hector with the beard

What. I think it just might be time for me to finally finish FE7.

I don't know, I never really like Justin Bailey Zero Suit Samus. To me, the Zero Suit we see post ZM looks more logical; it actually looks like the kind of suit Samus would wear under her Power Suit (no inexplicable high-heeled boots here).

*squints at a Justin Bailey Samus sprite* I'm not seeing what you're seeing, but if those boots have heels then I retract my stance entirely, partly because of the nonsensicality of it but mostly since high heels should of course be banned from existing--both in life and in video games--and also make up the main reason I almost never play as Peach or Zelda even though I like them both personality-wise. D: (Which is yet another reason I had wanted alternate outfits. I'd play as, say, Mario Hoops Peach.)

The one good thing about this update is that it raises the chances of clones still being in.

Good call as per usual.

 

[Iam Canadian]

*squints at a Justin Bailey Samus sprite* I'm not seeing what you're seeing, but if those boots have heels then I retract my stance entirely, partly because of the nonsensicality of it but mostly since high heels should of course be banned from existing--both in life and in video games--and also make up the main reason I almost never play as Peach or Zelda even though I like them both personality-wise. D: (Which is yet another reason I had wanted alternate outfits. I'd play as, say, Mario Hoops Peach.)

I don't know...this would be a lot easier if there was some official art of Justin Bailey Samus, but it's kind of iffy on the sprite. The boots kind of look high-heeled on the "facing the camera" sprite, but it could be just me. I'll concede by admitting that maybe the boots aren't high-heeled, but the modern Zero Suit still looks more appropriate for a space-faring bounty hunter than the Justin Bailey outfit.

I'm not known for having an opinion on womens' footware, but I've never really understood the appeal of high-heels myself. They appear ridiculously impractical and as a guy, I don't really see them as being particularly attractive in any case.

 

[SouthernDragon]

Nope, Misty has never been playable, and we're talking about the actual Pokeyman trainers we use in the games.

I thought we were just talking about famous and recognizable trainers. It helps to have trainers with names that tons of people got to know.

For trainers, the face of the male character is Ash/Red. For females, really, none comes close to Misty.

 

[Man God]

I thought we were just talking about famous and recognizable trainers. It helps to have trainers with names that tons of people got to know.

For trainers, the face of the male character is Ash/Red. For females, really, none comes close to Misty.

May does if you're a younger fan. Or a pedo. Same with Dawn really. Both have the exact character design of the female trainers from the two most recent main series pokemon games.

 

[Iam Canadian]

I'd say Misty is only really recognizable to those who were into Pokemon early and watched the anime. For fans strictly of the games, and newer fans, I'd say that May and Dawn are more recognizable, since they're actually main protagonists in the games, unlike Misty whose fame was only really achieved through her appearance in the anime. Game-wise, she's just another Gym Leader.

Heck, I don't know if Misty is even still in the anime or not.

 

[Nuclear Muffin]

I love how there`s an alternative costume for Wario that makes him look like Mario :lol

 

[SouthernDragon]

Hmmm. Pokemon is still immensely popular, but Misty was in there for a really freakin' long time. I'd be surprised if all Pokemon Trainers don't recognize heri n one form or another.

Doesn't she still make cameos in the games and anime? I stopped playing Pokemon (no time/cash) around Silver/Gold, and the anime a year after that.

 

[Iam Canadian]

I love how there`s an alternative costume for Wario that makes him look like Mario :lol

Well, you know what they say, turnabout is fair play.

It kind of makes me miss the days where Wario was actually Mario's evil counterpart, as opposed to a fat greedy guy who only appears in his own games and makes sports cameos.

 

[Grecco]

Awesome. Preference to Wario

 

[BGBW]

Well I for one LOVE this update as it was one of the few things I was hoping for from Brawl.

 

[NeonZ]

About "iconic female trainers"... The one most people were expecting to be a costume (the nameless trainer girl from FR/GL) is basically just a female version of the male pokemon trainer (presumably, a redesigned Red) - so, even though she isn't iconic by herself, she essentially was an alternate costume even in her original game.

Her design was based on Blue's from the Pokemon manga (though mostly for hairstyle only, and even that was still different before the manga changed Blue's design to match the female Pokemon trainer perfectly), but she had a generic personality and followed Red's storyline almost exactly, just like the boy in FR/LG, rather than having her own personality and story like the manga character.

 

[Pureauthor]

If we're going to have another Pokemon Trainer in there, I'd much prefer Ruby or Blue.

 

[NTom64]

If we're going to have another Pokemon Trainer in there, I'd much prefer Ruby or Blue.

Will probably be in the SSE as a boss...well, he's the only "villian" I can think of for the Pokemon Trainer, being his rival and whatnot :lol

 

[NeonZ]

If we're going to have another Pokemon Trainer in there, I'd much prefer Ruby or Blue.

Well, I was talking about a costume only (which seems to have no chance of happening due to today's update). Of course, a completely unique Pokemon trainer would be better.

BTW, the name of the rival is 'Green', according to the FR/GL remakes, not Blue.