The game doesnt teach the player at all, how one feels about that is neither here nor there, but the game does nothing (well I suppose you could count the intro tutorial, but calling that "just fine" seems wildly generous).
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The game doesnt teach the player at all, how one feels about that is neither here nor there, but the game does nothing (well I suppose you could count the intro tutorial, but calling that "just fine" seems wildly generous).
I must be taking crazy pills. Also you want a great example of a fighter teaching the player properly? Skullgirls.
The game does a terrible job of teaching players. I have a friend who hasn't played SF5 and all he wanted to know was what each character's vtrigger does.
A LOT of the complaints about the game will be solved next month, which is not far away, and it just boggles my mind as to why they shipped when they did.
No, I don't think it was because of the CPT.
A LOT of the complaints about the game will be solved next month, which is not far away, and it just boggles my mind as to why they shipped when they did.
No, I don't think it was because of the CPT.
7DollarHagane
Banned
But every character has a jump and a walkspeed and a dash, and a low forward and standing jab.
And if you don't master using those before the fireballs and shoryukens you already are getting bad habits.
CrispyBoar
Banned
Until these big companies learn on how to release fully featured games; Games that are mostly complete (y'know, like they used to).
How does a brand new player know this?
R_thanatos
Member
That Id can be tied to your PSN account, so what's the problem ? just use the same account if you want to keep your progress /dlc
So saying left moves you left and right moves you right counts as addressing walkspeed and the fact that characters have differing walkspeeds and what that implies about their possible play style? Or that showing a low forward and standing jab somehow counts as explaining when and why they should be used? It's amusing seeing the argument skitter from one position to another with every post, "It doesnt need to teach you how to play!", "It cant teach you how to play!","It totally teaches you how to play!", I assume next the counter argument will be "It teaches you too much!"
Zomba13
Member
Me too. I know what stuff like Nash and Rashid's do, you hit the buttons and get a move but stuff like Ken or Ryu or Karin etc where they get a buff, I have no clue. I know Ryu gets shock fists but I didn't know he could charge Hadokens in V-Trigger mode until Giant Bomb said it in a Quick Look.
It's such an easy thing to add, just put it under or at the bottom of the move list when you highlight the V-Trigger. Stuff like "Creates a Tornado Barrier that moves forward" or "Charges attacks with electricity which ______".
But you know, youtube and internet and we don't have to bother explaining new shit in our game because people will do that for us. Like the "tutorial" at the start is just the basic "move forward, jump, block, punch, special move" but with "Press these two buttons for this, press these two buttons for that. You're done" Doesn't even properly explain the V-Trigger for Ryu!
It's kind of shocking to me how Smash bros teaches you better in a two minute intro video than SFV does. It tells you the basics shared between all characters (directional smashes/specials/tilts, up B for recovery, shield, dodging,spot dodging, airdodging. Working up % before KOing,).
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
They all control the same. Each character has a high medium and low punch and kick and each character moves the same way. Just the stats and special moves (which is detailed in its own menu) is different. But the fundamentals are all the same and that's what's most important.
Zomba13
Member
But the game doesn't detail the differences. It doesn't tell you about F.A.N.Gs poison ability, or what different V-Triggers do. Some are easy to work out, they do a move, they are like mini supers but others give you a buff of some kind but no where does the game explain it or why it would be used or how it would be used.
Reductionist nonsense and outright exaggeration (the move list is as bare bones as everything else, detailed it is not).
The lengths at which street fighter fans will go to defend this game is absolutely baffling.
Street fighter does an abolute shitty job at bringing in any casual players and at teaching them how to play. That's an objective fact. That 2 minute tutorial when you first boot up the game? It's dogshit.
No one is asking how to win the game. But expecting a game as complex as this to at the very fucking least teach a new coming the basic mechanics should be expected.
Street fighter does an abolute shitty job at bringing in any casual players and at teaching them how to play. That's an objective fact. That 2 minute tutorial when you first boot up the game? It's dogshit.
No one is asking how to win the game. But expecting a game as complex as this to at the very fucking least teach a new coming the basic mechanics should be expected.
marvelharvey
Member
What I really don't understand about the lack of VS CPU is that it's already 99% there. It just needs 3 rounds and 8-10 randomized opponents in a row. Or just add an AI option to the VS mode.
CrispyBoar
Banned
I agree. And you know the irony of this?
Namco, SNK Playmore, & Arc System Works are still coming out with fighting games that are mostly complete, & their fighters aren't on the same level in popularity like Street Fighter is (well, maybe with Tekken).
Hell, Kumite that isn't Survival and just letting players set how many matches they want against random opponents would work.
But my biggest frustration is that unlock characters isn't possible to do "offline." It's either "pay us or don't get these new characters to try against the CPU."
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
Yeah but you don't need those to win. If you want to experiment with Vtrigger or the various special moves just use training mode. But Street Fighter is easy to learn. And if you don't think so, maybe it's just not for you.
I can safely say Tekken Tag 2 is the most satisfying fighting game purchase ive ever made. Packed with content, even more so on the Wii U version, with the only real weakness being the character customization.
Zomba13
Member
So because they aren't needed to win then the game shouldn't tell me? If they aren't needed why add them to the game. Why implement the V system at all?
And yeah, it's "easy to learn". Which makes the lack of tutorial or explanation of systems even more bizarre!
lovely ladies
Member
For people on the fence or who just want to try it out for a day or two, got a notice that the game released on redbox today. You can even take advantage of the last free game Wednesday promotion next week so you don't have to spend anything.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
They literally aren't needed to win. It was a secret in the first game and they just kind of stuck. So quit complaining just because you can't learn how to do a hoduken
Zomba13
Member
Street Fighter V; Not for critics. It's the Jersey Girl of fighting games.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
Critics like the game though....
SoRuffShoNuff
Member
Hey jumping isn't needed to win and neither are 5 of the 6 attack buttons. A tutorial only showing you how to walk, block, and press mk should be sufficient right. I mean really you can win using only those tools.
All those posts to the contrary would suggest otherwise
MK? HAX! All we need is standing jab. Dont need block to win either, thats for cowards!
Zomba13
Member
Don't need to walk, have the opponent walk into your kick!
hopefully they deliver on those indepth tutorials next month.
But I think something that is missed w/ FG is that the main appeal is the grind to "git gud", the constant requirement to put in work to get the most out of it, is what separates ok games from the great ones. The fear that SFV is "too easy/simple" may be unfounded in some cases but thats why it exists. The bulk of the audience wants that hard to master aspect...its what keeps them coming back. This idea that the entry level HAS to be easy is dumb. I'm ass at most fighting games but I know from other things, the rush of "getting it" is priceless.. Its what most people say about the Souls series, breaking through that barrier of failure is the "reward". Many can't...and thats ok.
SFV could do a better job of explaining somethings (like the whole V system is kinda glossed over weirdly...Ryu goes "I can do this thing"...then does it and then the tutorial ends....lol) but at the end of the day, you are going to have to put in time (and perhaps money. The guide is pretty dang good) to level up so to speak. And despite many's "git gud scrub" attitude...there is ton of resources out there that can help you, more than ANY tutorial can teach you. Hell, if people are looking to get their money's worth out of the base game, putting that work in is one hell of a way to do so.
I'll never be good at a fighting game as I lack time...but I'll never ask for that inherit grind to be taken out. I think they are awful people at times but this is the reason Melee fans love their game...the hard work they put into it.
But I think something that is missed w/ FG is that the main appeal is the grind to "git gud", the constant requirement to put in work to get the most out of it, is what separates ok games from the great ones. The fear that SFV is "too easy/simple" may be unfounded in some cases but thats why it exists. The bulk of the audience wants that hard to master aspect...its what keeps them coming back. This idea that the entry level HAS to be easy is dumb. I'm ass at most fighting games but I know from other things, the rush of "getting it" is priceless.. Its what most people say about the Souls series, breaking through that barrier of failure is the "reward". Many can't...and thats ok.
SFV could do a better job of explaining somethings (like the whole V system is kinda glossed over weirdly...Ryu goes "I can do this thing"...then does it and then the tutorial ends....lol) but at the end of the day, you are going to have to put in time (and perhaps money. The guide is pretty dang good) to level up so to speak. And despite many's "git gud scrub" attitude...there is ton of resources out there that can help you, more than ANY tutorial can teach you. Hell, if people are looking to get their money's worth out of the base game, putting that work in is one hell of a way to do so.
I'll never be good at a fighting game as I lack time...but I'll never ask for that inherit grind to be taken out. I think they are awful people at times but this is the reason Melee fans love their game...the hard work they put into it.
Spyder_Monkey
Banned
At this point it's become an echo chamber of people who don't get or don't want to get Street Fighter. That's fine there are some games I don't get as well. But to say the game is hard to learn is bullock. Hard to master? Yeah a lot of games are hard to master. There's a training mode and a tutorial for you to fool around with and experiment with different characters and moves. I have some... complicated thoughts on SFV but the game play is the best part and most certainly something you can get good with if you take the time to learn. Is this how Souls fans view souls newbies?
We don't need 8 street fighter threads saying the same thing.
Agreed with this when Skullgirls basically gave Capcom a template to go off of. The game really isn't inviting to people outside of the community. I like how the GB guys described it...if there was a ramp to high-level SF play it's like Capcom left the first 3rd out of the game.
Zen_Arcade
Banned
People who are saying that this game teaches the player how to play are crazy.
Outside of the most brain dead, easy to figure out elements it doesn't teach you anything.
I don't know what half of the characters V-Triggers do. Nothing has explained Crush Counters. The player is left completely in the dark about what anything more complicated then the basic "Move the left stick to move forward, press up to jump." is.
It's not that hard to figure out some of these things as someone who has been playing fighting games for a while, but I can't imagine what being a completely new Street Fighter player coming into this game must feel like. And to say it does a good job at teaching people is baffling.
Outside of the most brain dead, easy to figure out elements it doesn't teach you anything.
I don't know what half of the characters V-Triggers do. Nothing has explained Crush Counters. The player is left completely in the dark about what anything more complicated then the basic "Move the left stick to move forward, press up to jump." is.
It's not that hard to figure out some of these things as someone who has been playing fighting games for a while, but I can't imagine what being a completely new Street Fighter player coming into this game must feel like. And to say it does a good job at teaching people is baffling.
AFAIK, VF4 Evo's tutorial was is still is almost unanimously lauded, and it came out at a time when VFDC was already around. A good tutorial doesn't need to cover every situation & nuance, but at least the relatively obscure universal concepts that any player of any character should know (IIRC it *explained* the option select throw system).
I find it odd that some would not want Street Fighter to have something like it. It would only benefit/improve the quality of the playerbase.
Nobody's asking for that to be taken out, as you allude to in your post its the nature of the beast that practice makes perfect. However you seem to be mistakenly conflating that with needless barriers to entry caused by being purposefully obtuse.For example, telling someone how to do a fireball, what its properties are and what you commonly use it for doesnt mean theyve mastered it, it puts them at the starting point. Not telling them those things simply delays them getting to the starting point. When I teach someone how to play chess I tell them how each piece can move, shockingly that doesnt turn them into a chess master. Similarly, solid tutorials dont turn people into tournament champions. While most people wont get really good without a big time investment offering solid learning material means they can get to decent (by their own metric) much faster and much more efficiently. If I sit down to learn Street Fighter V ideally I should be able to dedicate that learning session to the game and the material within it as opposed to wasting time looking for poorly cataloged and formatted third party material online.
While some of the defences have gotten so obtuse that I have to assume they're a joke I really dont see any reason to object to better learning material. If you dont want it or need it, cool, but there's literally no downside for you in its inclusion (in fact its to your benefit as it improves the general level of competition and helps grow the community).
Your casual and misplaced elitism in assuming that the people who disagree with you dont "get" the game or havent been playing it for literally decades is just, well, sad. The fact that you can get good if you take the time to learn is a meaningless truism that fails to address the actual issue being argued about. Which would seem to be par for the course for your posts at this point.
CrispyBoar
Banned
SF isn't Sony's IP. They didn't develop the game, blame Capcom for that.
Zomba13
Member
I dunno, at least the Souls games tell you what the spells do in a description (even if phrased as a lore description rather than "a cone Area of Effect atatck that deals 100 fire damage").
And people are saying it has a shit tutorial which it does. The game literally doesn't explain one of the new gameplay mechanics. It tells you how to activate it, but not what it does. Like, whatever about when to use them and what you can do with it like use it to pressure or punish, it doesn't say what it is. And even if you go into the training mode you still don't know what it does unless you analyse the effect on every move and see if anything is different. That is shit the game should tell you. The game tells you that certain moves change under V-Trigger, but not how they change or even what the V-Trigger does. Some are very simple to understand, some aren't. And the game itself makes no effort to explain.
Yes, the basics of SF have been unchanged for a long time. It's still 3 punches, 3 kicks, throws, moving left right, jumping, hold back to block, quarter circles and dp motions (or charges if you're a sub human that can use charge characters) and stuff like utilising those basics to beat people.
But then you get stuff like Focus Attacks in IV. They were new, they weren't needed to win but the game still told you how to use them, what they did and even how to FADC! Here we have the V system with V-Triggers, Skills and Reversals and the game just says "lol press these buttons I don't know" without saying, for Rashid (eg), that his V-Trigger shoots a tornado wall that hits the opponent and that if you cross it you get a little boost. It doesn't need to say that it can be used for cross ups or anything, or tell me when to use it but it could at least tell me what it does instead of me having to figure it out. And Rashid's got an easy one to figure out, so does Nash, but Ken and Karin's I still don't understand what exactly they do and what way the moves actually change, I just know that certain moves are tagged with "(Changes under V-Trigger)". Rashid has that too but I've noticed to difference to those moves while I have the tornado wall out.
I don't think anyone is asking for the game to include a personal Justin Wong to coach us to greatness. We just want something more substantial than "walk left, walk right, hit X to light kick, qcf punch to hadoken, hit those two buttons to V-Skill and those two to V-trigger. Ok go, let the legend come back to life." Stuff that is the absolute basics of SF. Like, Guilty Gear Xrd tells you how do do the different cancels and what they are used for and stuff like hit confirms etc. It manages to tell you more about the games systems and what they do.
entremet
Member
It is horrible.
What makes it worse is Capcom's posturing about making this game more casual friendly. Total BS.
And I love how people are recommending YT.
I'm pretty experienced and use those resources, but it doesn't excuse Capcom for being so lazy about this.
New players shouldn't need to do this. It should be in game.
It's incredible that the SFV tutorial doesn't tell you what the game's unique mechanics do.
Meanwhile, the Skullsgirls tutorial (from a game made by a tiny ass team mind you) specifically has a section where they say "Because overheads are generally easier to see coming, you probably want to crouch block more often than not and react to the overheads".
Skullgirls is an indie game with a tutorial teaching players the basics of dealing with high-low mix ups. SFV is the most recent game in the most recognizable fighting game franchise on the planet and it can't bother to tell you what the characters' moves do. It's appalling.
Meanwhile, the Skullsgirls tutorial (from a game made by a tiny ass team mind you) specifically has a section where they say "Because overheads are generally easier to see coming, you probably want to crouch block more often than not and react to the overheads".
Skullgirls is an indie game with a tutorial teaching players the basics of dealing with high-low mix ups. SFV is the most recent game in the most recognizable fighting game franchise on the planet and it can't bother to tell you what the characters' moves do. It's appalling.
CrispyBoar
Banned
I also agree with these statements, as I too, started playing games back in the NES days.
We have to start putting the blame on people that keeps buying DLC, Microtransactions, Season Passes, Day One DLC, etc., because they are constantly sending a message to every company that their practices are OK & knowing that they can get away with this shit. Result? Everyone gets screwed on content from Day One & everyone has to bend over & fork over the money if they want all of the content.
Barkley's Justice
Member
I was wondering what we'd raise our pitchforks to this week. Excited for next week's controversy du jour!
7DollarHagane
Banned
yeah, it's very similar to the complaint that you shouldn't have to put in time learning or experimenting or dying to enjoy a game. Nothing will make these people happy, they're just here to complain. So let them enjoy complaining. Would they be happier if people enjoying the game just stopped having such a good time and felt bad for their purchase and started complaining along with them?
7DollarHagane
Banned
and yet somehow skullgirls didn't manage to breakthrough to the mainstream and turn fighting games into something everyone enjoys and gets good it. How is this possible? If you read this thread you'd believe that if only a game would explain mechanics everyone could display their real skill and start winning more!
Psychoward
Banned
Maybe publishers should stop releasing half-baked games then and there won't be controversies.
This is a stupid line of reasoning. No one's asking to simplify the mechanics, just have the mechanics be explained in-game through tutorials.
Bullshit, its not similar at all. It's certainly not similar to a complaint that hasnt been made anywhere bar your head. Though I suppose at least you're mixing it up and constructing sad little strawmen as opposed to simply flip-flopping on what you're actually saying. Learned more about high low mixups from this than I did from the game.
entremet
Member
Very strange comparing a labor of love indie fighter to a mega selling genre defining franchise like SF. If anything SF should have a higher standard in which we judge it.
I mean I understand that Capcom wanted the game out for the FGC and if the story had to come later because of that, i'm fine with that....however, if they were focusing on the multiplayer aspect(and lets be honest here, the main aspect) I would have wanted it to be less buggy since they should have been focusing on it.
Though I do have to ask, how many of you buy SF(or fighting games in general) just for story? I know it's nice to have single player options but I feel like people are just making a big deal out of this because its not there and not because they actually want it.
Though I do have to ask, how many of you buy SF(or fighting games in general) just for story? I know it's nice to have single player options but I feel like people are just making a big deal out of this because its not there and not because they actually want it.
Psychoward
Banned
so now games should only take ideas from games that managed to be mainstream mega-franchises?
Zomba13
Member
Do you just not read posts or is it an elitist thing?
No one is saying "waaah we want easy mode we want to one button combo, we want one button supers waaaah". People just want the game to explain it's own damn new features and tell people how to use them.
Or maybe you're right. Maybe me wanting to know what Karin's V-Trigger actually does is just me wanting easy mode wins with no learning. I dunno. I'm just an noob scrub who should just stop even trying right?
Because it was a little indie game and not the premier fighting game known the world over?
7DollarHagane
Banned
You missed the point: skullgirls and virtua fighter have shown that spending time making a detailed tutorial to teach people how to play isn't going to make much difference in who actually learns the mechanics of your game. People who are interested and want to learn will learn. People who don't have patience for it won't. lead a horse to water, can't make him drink, etc.
Fighting games aren't casual by nature. Plenty of fighting games have tried to be more casual and failed miserably. There were already concerns before launch that SF5 is too simplified and too shallow. Now we have complaints that there isn't enough hand holding and tutorials.
Embracing the competitive nature of the genre is the right direction going forward. And part of that might be keeping sales expectations and budgets under control, and getting the core gameplay and online functionality correct first before adding on to the game with side modes.
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