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[Mooreberg]

Heh, imagine if the next Call of Duty was delayed an entire year due to an ongoing labor strike. This place would blow up.

This is actually the sort of thing that I think would make the unions useless to begin with. Large publishers own the IP, and consumers have shown they don't care who is making something if there is a particular name slapped on the box. Activision could find thousands upon thousands of people who would love the job security that goes along with working on a product that is guaranteed to sell.

This is in stark contrast to the movie industry where it would be a public relations nightmare for WB if Christian Bale and Christopher Nolan pulled out of the next Batman movie because they thought the film crew was being treated unfairly (yes, I've heard the "Good for you!" outburst, just using this as an example).

Games are a creative medium but most consumers don't associate a particular name or personality with a franchise like they do with music, movies, or television. And there are too many people with comp. sci. and art degrees to think a strike would cause a labor shortage.

 

[Jin34]

The goal of a corporation is to maximize return to stockholders.

Full stop.

That means spending as little as possible on the raw materials, which labor is one of.

And seriously, the union hate is completely illogical.

Working people forming a group so they can better bargain against an enormous corporation who's only goal is to maximize profit?

How evil of them!

And of course the "if you dont like it, quit" argument. How lovely. If you were in charge, workers comp, vacations etc woudlnt exist. After all, if you dont want to lose your hand in the saw mill, than quit.

"But we have laws to prevent evil stuff like that!"

Yeah, thanks to unions. If the unions disband, suddenly the politicians who are corporate shills start chipping away at those laws in favor of "the free market".

How can we compete with china if we require a minimum wage? They will yell. And if there's no union to fight back, all those protections go away.

And of course, the anti-worker rhetoric is a lie. Look at germany. Highly unionized...and a major manufacturing and economic power.

You forgot that said laws don't much matter if they are not enforced or someone isn't there to make sure they are enforced. I have seen several times where people have been taken advantage of even though a law is there to prevent that. But what the hell are they going to do, they got kids to feed and can't afford to waste that time and money in protracted legal battles, where as if they had an union that wouldn't happen.

 

[ban25]

Looking it up, seems to range from 50k to 110k for programmers, artists/designers average 60k. They are payed pretty well, but the hours put in, and the difficulty of their jobs compared to similar sector jobs, it just doesn't add up. All i'm saying is, the folks who make our games should use themselves to secure their rightful slice.

Also, if people like the cutthroat nature of the biz, that's cool. Just wanted to start a discussion. Good to see varied opinions within the industry itself. Not everyone feels the same way about it.

Those figures are quite low for non-entry level, at least in CA.

 

[IrishNinja]

Self-respect or dignity maybe? Talent?

ah, the general, baseless union bashing. yeah, those of us in fields that practically live & die on the strength of our unions, we lack respect & dignity, great answer man.

 

[Morn]

Those figures are quite low for non-entry level, at least in CA.

Yea very low for CA. And people fail to mention the real fat bonus most companies give once the game ships.

 

[ban25]

remnant brings up a great point about unions vs guilds. Gaming needs something more along the lines of a guild for representation.

Protect IP.
Standardized Credits.
Protect possible royalties against other represented groups.

I've been lucky enough to be credited on every game I have worked on, but sadly TONS of people don't or are added to 'Special Thanks' with no title associated.

Film is pretty straight forward. You do the work, you get a credit. If that is one day or one year.

Things like work/life balance and salary balance aren't a big issue to me, because that is drastically dependent on who YOU decide to work for.

Does anyone really care that much about the credits? It's not as if hardly anyone ever looks at them. My professional experience, including games that shipped and others that didn't, is on my resume and that's all that really matters. Sure, it's nice to see your name in the credits, but I wouldn't join a union for it!

 

[Slavik81]

The reason why the game industry hasn't unionized is because of a lack of a strong focused governing body. Leadership at the IDGA is piss poor at best and highly regionalized.

While I don't see a union happening anytime soon, something will need to happen to protect profits that should be going to the people that acutally work on the game for years on end, especially when other unions/guilds that are more organized become more involved, say SAG or others.

It really isn't fair when a VO actor gets a $500k bonus for working for a month a game, while the programmer gets to keep his job (no bonus) for working for four years on the same game.

That probably isn't because of unions. It's because voice actors are hard to replace. People notice when John talks instead of Bob, but nobody notices if Alice hooks the engine together instead of Fred.

Being highly visible to end-customers will make you much harder to replace. And what really determines your pay is not how much value you create, but how much it would cost to replace you.

 

[Warm Machine]

Does anyone really care that much about the credits? It's not as if hardly anyone ever looks at them. My professional experience, including games that shipped and others that didn't, is on my resume and that's all that really matters. Sure, it's nice to see your name in the credits, but I wouldn't join a union for it!

People who actually do work on a game and then get let go a few months before release yet have a good deal of their work in the game not getting credit pisses me off. Most of the time it is a very easy to edit text file that costs a company nothing to change.

 

[jakonovski]

I shall never understand the American fervour of burning oneself out for the sake of a corporation that doesn't give a shit about you.

 

[Warm Machine]

I shall never understand the American fervour of burning oneself out for the sake of a corporation that doesn't give a shit about you.

I've done it for pride in my work and in the project. The good of the company at that moment is usually the last thing on my mind. I LOVE making games.

 

[jorma]

Self-respect or dignity maybe?

Yeah, i'd lose it all if i ever decided to leave the union just because i thought i could negotiate a better deal for myself and myself only.

Because in reality nothing has ever stopped me from negotiating my own salary, despite being a member of a strong union with all the long term positive effects that brings me.

 

[Thoraxes]

Well, as a music composer, if you're well known enough or have good networking skills, it's much easier to work on commission/freelance than it is under a company or in a union.

Plus, the feeling of actually getting to pick your projects is just a TON more fun. Hamauzu and Uematsu have both been big names in doing this recently by leaving SE, and for them, it has been a largely positive experience.

 

[cpp_is_king]

I shall never understand the American fervour of burning oneself out for the sake of a corporation that doesn't give a shit about you.

Translation: I can't understand how some people like their jobs.

 

[jakonovski]

Translation: I can't understand how some people like their jobs.

I love my job. Strong union and a leadership that listens and realizes there is no point in burning out your employees.

 

[element]

Does anyone really care that much about the credits? It's not as if hardly anyone ever looks at them. My professional experience, including games that shipped and others that didn't, is on my resume and that's all that really matters. Sure, it's nice to see your name in the credits, but I wouldn't join a union for it!

Standardizing crediting is a big debate. It isn't fair to work on a game for two years, get laid off a month or two before the game, and your name is removed. Not cool. The last two years of your life, erased. Also you would be surprised how many developers look at credits for recruiting. I can't count the times I've heard, 'I played [insert game] and their characters were awesome. These are the artists listed in the credits, let's talk to them all.'
With the industry getting larger it will slowly become easier to fake things as well. Example, I know a couple people listed in the Halo credits because they were in Recon Testing (regression testing), but tell everyone they worked on Halo and a couple got design jobs from it.
Also this 'I wouldn't join a union for it' isn't really what I'm saying either. The industry should have a standard that everyone follows. Their has been discussions at GDC and DICE about it.

That probably isn't because of unions. It's because voice actors are hard to replace. People notice when John talks instead of Bob, but nobody notices if Alice hooks the engine together instead of Fred.

That is fucking bullshit. I'd agree that voice actors are hard to select, but they aren't hard to replace. When I was at Monolith we changed actresses from NOLF1 to NOLF2 and no one cared. Union or non-union talent is a dime a dozen with VO. It only becomes a big deal if you get a Hollywood star to do VO work, which is typically a very different rate then a typical SAG VO actor.
So what you want is VO actors to be paid more then the programmers because fans hear their voice and not the programmers? ::golf clap::

 

[mclem]

Like I said before, if you're at the entry level the pay is horrible. If you're senior level, the pay is very very competitive. I'm saying this from experience.

Depending on where you work, it's very possible to go much higher than that 110k. And that still doesn't include stock, bonuses, or any other financial perks.

It's also possible to go much lower. Converting to dollars, I was earning about 40k at the end with about 8 years of experience under my belt. Only perks really being the usual crunch pizza and free copies of the games I worked on.

I think the reality is that there are studios like the one you're talking about and there's also ones which do take people young, work them hard and then burn them out. I'm hoping mine was making the transition to one more akin to yours; there were a fair few great people still there who deserved better.

 

[mclem]

People who actually do work on a game and then get let go a few months before release yet have a good deal of their work in the game not getting credit pisses me off. Most of the time it is a very easy to edit text file that costs a company nothing to change.

There was a minor rebellion in our company when one of our producers strongly disliked this practice and refused to do it. TPTB were very strongly in favour of not crediting those who'd left the company.

 

[beat]

It's a pretty simple concept, I'm surprised you're having difficult with it. Content takes hours to produce. Less hours worked = less content.

So... you've seriously never ever worked on a project where many months of work was thrown out because it was fundamentally flawed as a concept? Never even seen a game where you thought "it took them X years to do this?"

Actually it's based on experience. Is yours?

8 years in the industry so far.

 

[Vilam]

So, whats up? You feel like the industry as whole is built to test a strike, and just move labor to india/china? Is that the fear? Or is the average payscale feel like solid reimbursement for your skill level & time?

Fear? ...did you ever consider that people just don't want to be in a union? I sure as hell don't. I like being compensated based on my job performance as well. LOL at the people thinking they just toss us a microwave meal to eat.

Oh and I earn overtime money just fine, thanks... at a large company and not in QA no less. Not that we really do insane overtime in the first place.

Form a union and find yourself out of a job. There's an endless line of people who want to work in this industry.

Oh and, it certainly wouldn't improve the quality of the games you get. Just the opposite actually.

 

[remnant]

I shall never understand the American fervour of burning oneself out for the sake of a corporation that doesn't give a shit about you.

So working hard is considered taboo where you are from?

 

[Margalis]

This is not specific to unions but what you find in general is that when people work at a job because of "passion" or because "I love what I do" it almost becomes a badge of honor to be treated poorly.

Also the idea that being paid for overtime would increase the budgets of games may be true, but it might also be true that it world force video game development to engage in real project management. Video game project management is a disaster, even for the software engineering world. If you read Gamasutra post-mortems you see the exact same mistakes repeated like clockwork. When you can throw infinite manpower at a schedule proper management isn't a priority. In many ways the willingness of workers to work long hours for low compensation is a giant crutch that probably hurts the industry overall.

Most people and most organizations will not change unless forced by circumstance, even if the change is for the better. Right now the video game industry can get away with some extremely poor practices because of low labor costs.

 

[jakonovski]

So working hard is considered taboo where you are from?

Do you know what burnout is?

 

[charlequin]

Any proof of these claims? I realize the league asked for more games and get paid by the TV stations no matter if the players play or not but they still lose some money.

You... need more proof than the fact that the League made a completely unreasonable demand and bet against their own season in their TV contracts to give themselves more leverage to squeeze it out of the players? In that case, you can look to the fact that the players were willing to continue on with the existing CBA while the owners are pushing to cut the ~50% profit shared to players by 18% due to "profit loss" (even though they won't allow their books to be audited to prove this statement, and anyone with eyes can see that the NFL has not seen any decline of popularity or success over the last few years.)

I don't support all action by players' unions in professional sports by default (and the nature of pro sports strikes means that in almost every case, both sides would be better off hammering out a deal as soon as possible to avoid the loss of popularity from a long lockout) but in this particular case the issue seems particularly one-sided.

remnant brings up a great point about unions vs guilds. Gaming needs something more along the lines of a guild for representation.

Protect IP.
Standardized Credits.
Protect possible royalties against other represented groups.

Yup. Like I've said a few times, the "traditional union" model obviously wouldn't work in game development since it's a model built for something very different (i.e. protecting tradespeople from divide-and-conquer tactics) but that doesn't mean collective representation isn't valuable. A guild intended to prodect IP ownership, accreditation, and royalties, as well as to push for contractual honesty and compliance in things like crunch time, would be very valuable and would look very little like what most people think of as a "union."

But people are lining up for those jobs, this is the free market at work.

Unions are, in a very real sense, also the free market at work. The entire purpose of collective bargaining is to collect a fundamental inequality in the market: an employer can cut deals with hundreds or thousands of employees at once, using economies of scale to push better deals for its own side onto them; each employee only has their own position to bargain with.

There are lots of reasons for people to support the right of employers to negotiate in a group but not extend the same right to employees, but interest in a free market is not one of them.

Because in reality nothing has ever stopped me from negotiating my own salary, despite being a member of a strong union with all the long term positive effects that brings me.

People have this idea that because unions that represent unskilled labor focus heavily on homogeneous salary and benefit requirements, that's what "unions" do -- even though there are plenty of unions representing film directors, professional athletes, medical doctors, etc. which do nothing to negotiate collective salary requirements since that's not useful for those professions.

ah, the general, baseless union bashing. yeah, those of us in fields that practically live & die on the strength of our unions, we lack respect & dignity, great answer man.

It's JayDubya. You have to take him telling you that you live without respect and dignity as a badge of honor.

 

[cpp_is_king]

Unions are, in a very real sense, also the free market at work. The entire purpose of collective bargaining is to collect a fundamental inequality in the market: an employer can cut deals with hundreds or thousands of employees at once, using economies of scale to push better deals for its own side onto them; each employee only has their own position to bargain with.

There are lots of reasons for people to support the right of employers to negotiate in a group but not extend the same right to employees, but interest in a free market is not one of them.

What you say is true for blue collar workers, but in a technical environment where the level of skill and knowledge drastically affects the quality of work, I don't think it's necessarily the case. Especially in something like game development where most of the people are well above the average quality of people you find in non-games industries that use the same skills (programming, etc). Collective bargaining, almost by definition, hides the differences in the individuals when it comes to compensation. This will cause all the great people to leave, and the only winners will be the exact set of people that shouldn't be rewarded.

It's also why unions are typically so prevalent in blue collar environments and non-existent in skill / knowledge based roles. There's not nearly as big of a potential impact on the finished product between assembly line worker 1 and assembly line worker 2 as there is between programmer 1 and programmer 2

 

[ban25]

People who actually do work on a game and then get let go a few months before release yet have a good deal of their work in the game not getting credit pisses me off. Most of the time it is a very easy to edit text file that costs a company nothing to change.

That's unfortunate, but it's unlikely there's any malicious intent. The credits feature is usually implemented late in the development cycle by a junior engineer who probably has not been there for the entire time. It's up to the producers to make sure everyone gets on the list, but when you have hundreds of people working on a project over the course of several years, it's hard to keep track of everyone who's coming and going.

For what it's worth, there's never been an issue with credits or people not being credited on the games I've worked on. There have been plenty of last minute adds, but that's always the case.

 

[fenners]

That's unfortunate, but it's unlikely there's any malicious intent.

No, it often is malicious intent - "You quitter, you don't deserve recognition for your work on our game". I've seen it happen.

The junior engineer in your example isn't to blame, it's production + management, the guys who usually generate the list of credits.

 

[ban25]

Standardizing crediting is a big debate. It isn't fair to work on a game for two years, get laid off a month or two before the game, and your name is removed. Not cool. The last two years of your life, erased. Also you would be surprised how many developers look at credits for recruiting. I can't count the times I've heard, 'I played [insert game] and their characters were awesome. These are the artists listed in the credits, let's talk to them all.'
With the industry getting larger it will slowly become easier to fake things as well. Example, I know a couple people listed in the Halo credits because they were in Recon Testing (regression testing), but tell everyone they worked on Halo and a couple got design jobs from it.
Also this 'I wouldn't join a union for it' isn't really what I'm saying either. The industry should have a standard that everyone follows. Their has been discussions at GDC and DICE about it.

It's unfortunate, but frankly hard to believe that you would be 'removed' (I don't know, maybe they are assholes where you worked). I suspect it was an innocent mistake -- they probably didn't put the credits in until a week before GM and they forgot to add you. But it wasn't erased. You were paid for the time. It's on your resume and, if you're an artist, in your portfolio. Recruiters mostly use LinkedIn these days (I must get 10 spams a day from them on it), they typically are too lazy to go look up the credits and even if they go to Mobygames, they may not find anything there because it's user contributed.

 

[ban25]

No, it often is malicious intent - "You quitter, you don't deserve recognition for your work on our game". I've seen it happen.

The junior engineer in your example isn't to blame, it's production + management, the guys who usually generate the list of credits.

I'm surprised that there would be that level of immaturity. Typically, if someone gets left off, usually one of his friends will notice and make sure he gets added. Even friends of mine who have left under less than ideal circumstances have still gotten Special Thanks mentions.

 

[charlequin]

Collective bargaining, almost by definition, hides the differences in the individuals when it comes to compensation.

Which is precisely why unions for skilled professions generally focus on fringe benefits, working conditions, property ownership issues, and proper crediting for work done rather than on base compensation.

non-existent in skill / knowledge based roles.

Well, except for teachers, actors, writers, directors, medical doctors, professional athletes....

It's unfortunate, but frankly hard to believe that you would be 'removed'

It's extremely common across the industry. It's usually not to be an "innocent mistake." And no, getting mentioned under "special thanks" is not the same as being correctly credited for one's actual work.

 

[element]

It's unfortunate, but frankly hard to believe that you would be 'removed' (I don't know, maybe they are assholes where you worked). I suspect it was an innocent mistake -- they probably didn't put the credits in until a week before GM and they forgot to add you. But it wasn't erased. You were paid for the time. It's on your resume and, if you're an artist, in your portfolio. Recruiters mostly use LinkedIn these days (I must get 10 spams a day from them on it), they typically are too lazy to go look up the credits and even if they go to Mobygames, they may not find anything there because it's user contributed.

I can tell you right now, these aren't innocent mistakes. I've been on countless games where people leave or have been let go and the producer says to remove them. Hell, I've been on games where someone changes TEAMS (still works for the company) and has their name removed from a game.
As silly as it sounds many studios go by the 'if you work here when I make the credits list, you are on the list'.
I've also seen people hired a week or two before a game is shipped and get a full credit.

Sometimes people who leave are placed in Special Thanks, but that is crap too IMO. If your a programmer and you are listed with the cook that comes in once a week, that is kinda BS.

Recruiters use Linkedin because they just search 'Level Designer' or 'Programmer' and just shotgun out hoping for a responce. Developers from what I've seen look at credits and find out who did what and contact that specific person.

 

[oracrest]

People getting left out of credits is never an innocent mistake. Companies do it all the time to be vengeful. I know plenty of people who this has happened to, and 99% of the time, it's a "fuck you" from a company if someone left before development was done.

 

[beat]

People getting left out of credits is never an innocent mistake. Companies do it all the time to be vengeful.

Co-sign.

 

[Warm Machine]

There is also a vast amount of favoritism in the credits. People who left for one reason a year prior gets credited while another person who some people didn't like but left far after didn't.

It is all political bullshit. My thing is that if you worked on the game and your effort is represented in the final product you get a credit. The game would never be the way it was without your effort. Doesn't matter if I like you or not.

If you did one job with a certain responsibility and then had to shift to another one you get a credit for both of them.

You can credit for "additional art" or "additional programming" or "additional support" for people who were not there for the final 6 months or were let go at any time.

 

[subversus]

There is also a vast amount of favoritism in the credits. People who left for one reason a year prior gets credited while another person who some people didn't like but left far after didn't.

I remember reading that a guy who was the lead designer or producer on Dead Space left EA and they gave him "special thanks" or something in the credits. It seems he's still bitter about that, lol.

 

[P90]

So much union hate. Unions ain't what they used to be. But they have their purpose, especially when the government is your boss.

If only the new breed of Republican governors would be supply-siders and honored CBAs.

http://www.hulu.com/watch/223083/th...t-moment-of-zen-ronald-reagan-supports-unions

Unions are, in a very real sense, also the free market at work. The entire purpose of collective bargaining is to collect a fundamental inequality in the market: an employer can cut deals with hundreds or thousands of employees at once, using economies of scale to push better deals for its own side onto them; each employee only has their own position to bargain with.

I don't see how each employee only has their own position to bargain with. Please explain your viewpoint.

 

[Vilam]

It's extremely common across the industry. It's usually not to be an "innocent mistake." And no, getting mentioned under "special thanks" is not the same as being correctly credited for one's actual work.

Yep. I've definitely seen people left out of credits for malicious reasons before. I hate it personally, my name in the credits is my stamp of the work I've contributed to a title. It's very important to me, and I've been bitterly disappointed in the past on a project.

Happily I've seen the opposite as well, where an entire department was getting laid off, and they made it a point to include everyone's name in the credits from that studio to ensure they'd have another title they could include on their resumes going forward, so it isn't all bad.

 

[ban25]

There is also a vast amount of favoritism in the credits. People who left for one reason a year prior gets credited while another person who some people didn't like but left far after didn't.

It is all political bullshit. My thing is that if you worked on the game and your effort is represented in the final product you get a credit. The game would never be the way it was without your effort. Doesn't matter if I like you or not.

If you did one job with a certain responsibility and then had to shift to another one you get a credit for both of them.

You can credit for "additional art" or "additional programming" or "additional support" for people who were not there for the final 6 months or were let go at any time.

That sucks, but to my point, the credits are not indicative of your work on a title, that's what your resume's for, and no one can take that away from you.

 

[element]

That sucks, but to my point, the credits are not indicative of your work on a title, that's what your resume's for, and no one can take that away from you.

people lie on their resume. credits are proof of work.

There is nothing more demoralizing than spending three years of your life, and not get proper credit for it. It can sometimes feel like you were never there.

Also some studio require permission to use art in your porfolio, as it belongs to them.

 

[Vilam]

That sucks, but to my point, the credits are not indicative of your work on a title, that's what your resume's for, and no one can take that away from you.

Disagree. I expect to be properly credited for the work I've contributed. It's not simply for future job opportunities, it's a matter of pride.

 

[DangerousDave]

That sucks, but to my point, the credits are not indicative of your work on a title, that's what your resume's for, and no one can take that away from you.

But the game is the proof that you worked in that title, and the work that you've done (not the same being credited as lead engine programmer than additional programmer, for example) . A lot of devs attach screenshots of the credits of the game that they worked, or a link to their Mobygame page.

 

[Mr Killemgood]

Generally, unions were/are established at vocations where hours are bad, safety is an issue, and pay is horrible.

The gaming industry, sans maybe Q&A doesn't have that.

Hours can be bad at times, but pay usually goes along with it. Safety is a non-starter, as its a job in a cubicle with plenty of amenities. Pay is generally pretty frakkin' good. I went from working a 50-60hr a day job in another field for $8/hr to a work from home job making a bit more than that with health/vision/dental for pennies on the dollar.



Look at pay scales for people in the industry. Generally, its much higher than other fields. Programmers/ect are too content (relatively speaking) to unionize and attack management which could do more harm than good.

 

[Zoe]

Q&A

QA
QA
QA
QA
QA
QA

No ampersand!

 

[element]

Look at pay scales for people in the industry. Generally, its much higher than other fields. Programmers/ect are too content (relatively speaking) to unionize and attack management which could do more harm than good.

Not true. Most programmers could move to traditional software and make more money with less hours. They probably won't have royalties, so the huge payout isn't likely, but I know of a couple game programmers that went into the financial software and almost doubled their salary.

No ampersand!

I love the Questions & Answer jobs.