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So I Finished Guyland Today

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Suairyu

Banned
I'm not going to get annoyed... why the hell would you not bring nature into the discussion when we are animals that evolved from earlier animals? Like other animlas we have instincts.

I at least make sure there is good reasoning behind everything I post. My posts are usually quite thoughtful.
Because the behaviour of animals can teach us very little about human behaviour, much like human behaviour can teach you very little about animals.

And especially in something as complicated and nuanced as world-wide 'guy code'. I mean, seriously, you honestly think it's a worthwhile contribution? What does it contribute? "This is how it's done with these sets of animals that have a completely different set of social rules, if indeed they have social rules at all"?

In any case, relating to homophobia, I think again you're casting it that it was masculine ideals themselves that caused homosexuals to be view as less than men, and not pre-existing hatred for homosexuals (most likely instilled by religious views) that caused the other issue.
Homophobia and false notions of "what it means to be a man" are absolutely linked. It's not my area of expertise, but very knowledgeable people would say that sort of social programming is rife amongst the low-income African American communities, as an example. Similarly, military institutions - which are very classically 'masculine' - have historically taken longer to accept homosexual activity than society and law at large.

Believe it or not there is a huge swath of the gay male community that is the exact opposite of feminine. Some of them probably fall out to be more stereotypically masculine than average.
The feminity of certain homosexuals has never been the historic reason for gays being 'less than men'. Either do some damn research on the last sixty years of homosexuals in culture or don't bother attempt to clobber together some clumsy ass point. Even the big brick shithouse gay bears are seen as 'less than men' by many. These are facts.
 

leadbelly

Banned
Because the behaviour of animals can teach us very little about human behaviour, much like human behaviour can teach you very little about animals.

And especially in something as complicated and nuanced as world-wide 'guy code'. I mean, seriously, you honestly think it's a worthwhile contribution? What does it contribute? "This is how it's done with these sets of animals that have a completely different set of social rules, if indeed they have social rules at all"?

That's not how evolutionary thought works.

Besides, if you bothered to read my posts you wouold realise I am not completely attributing it to nature. I am merely pointing out that we are animals. That the only thing we can do is compare ourselves to other animals. This is what evolutionary scientists do a lot.
 

LordCanti

Member
I think a lot of what it means to be a man is based on a history where having a set of testicles meant a pretty good chance of having to bash someones skull in on a battlefield sometime during your life. It's based on the idea that not only do we have to fight all the battles, but hunt all the food, and keep everything running. If the difference between your village getting invaded/conquered and surviving was how much other villages feared yours, then showing weakness of any sort was out of the question.

Cut to today, and no one is asking any of that of us (at least in the US). There's no wars to fight that aren't voluntary, no food to hunt, etc. For some reason it's kind of been decided that we'll all keep up with the old ways just in case physical strength becomes a necessary asset again.

Personally, I don't think it's been a huge negative in my life thus far, but it's not really a positive either. I'd have taken more shit in school for my good grades, but I was athletic as well so it never really came to that. Being intelligent is still fairly looked down upon in relation to being strong though, which is a vestige of the old days.
 

Suairyu

Banned
That the only thing we can do is compare ourselves to other animals. This is what evolutionary scientists do a lot.
Except they certainly wouldn't about a 'guy code'. The cognitive gulf between us and any other other animal is huge. The complexities of human society are so rich and artificial, ie. created outside of mere instinct and instead via intellectual process, that any comparison to other mammals would be wasted. Even our closest cousins, the primates, have little in common with us when it comes to social behaviour, at least on this advanced a level.

It's just a waste of time and doesn't contribute to the discourse.

A relevant evolutionary examination might be on pre-homo sapien species that humans evolved out of. Except we can't analyse those because we killed/bred them all off. There isn't anything left on our evolutionary branch, as it were, so any direct comparison is unsound.
 

leadbelly

Banned
Except they certainly wouldn't about a 'guy code'. The cognitive gulf between us and any other other animal is huge. The complexities of human society are so rich and artificial, ie. created outside of mere instinct and instead via intellectual process, that any comparison to other mammals would be wasted. Even our closest cousins, the primates, have little in common with us when it comes to social behaviour, at least on this advanced a level.

It's just a waste of time and doesn't contribute to the discourse.

A relevant evolutionary examination might be on pre-homo sapien species that humans evolved out of. Except we can't analyse those because we killed/bred them all off. There isn't anything left on our evolutionary branch, as it were, so any direct comparison is unsound.

Actually read my posts before commenting.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=37037313&postcount=42
 

grumble

Member
I think a lot of what it means to be a man is based on a history where having a set of testicles meant a pretty good chance of having to bash someones skull in on a battlefield sometime during your life. It's based on the idea that not only do we have to fight all the battles, but hunt all the food, and keep everything running. If the difference between your village getting invaded/conquered and surviving was how much other villages feared yours, then showing weakness of any sort was out of the question.

Cut to today, and no one is asking any of that of us (at least in the US). There's no wars to fight that aren't voluntary, no food to hunt, etc. For some reason it's kind of been decided that we'll all keep up with the old ways just in case physical strength becomes a necessary asset again.

Personally, I don't think it's been a huge negative in my life thus far, but it's not really a positive either. I'd have taken more shit in school for my good grades, but I was athletic as well so it never really came to that. Being intelligent is still fairly looked down upon in relation to being strong though, which is a vestige of the old days.

I can agree with this. In the reasonable possibility of a civilizational breakdown, the old ways might come in handy.
 

leadbelly

Banned
I did. Your comparisons to animals are still irrelevant. I reject your position that any observed behaviour in animals can form any kind of comparative base for complex human societal behaviour. 'The guy code' is an intellectual problem born out of traditional gender roles, not an evolutionary one.

Then you misunderstand. I'm not comparing humans with other animals and saying we are exactly like them. Obviously we are much more complex in terms of behaviour. However, there are observable behaviours in other animals that are comparable to humans. Chimps especially as they are evolutionary very close to us. I'm not saying we are exactly the same, only that there are distinct masculine traits within those animals, so why isn't there in humans? Why is it any different? It's like debating why men act aggressively. Well, there is probably an instinctual reason for it. Not the only reason. The difference is we are incredibly intelligent and evolved to be completely self-aware. If many other male animals act in a way that is characteristic of a type of masculinity then surely it would be the same with us?
 
I did. Your comparisons to animals are still irrelevant. I reject your position that any observed behaviour in animals can form any kind of comparative base for complex human societal behaviour. 'The guy code' is an intellectual problem born out of traditional gender roles, not an evolutionary one.

Uh... why can't it be both? Yes, much of the "guy code" is societal, but men also have a lot more testosterone, which leads to the sort of aggressive and competitive behavior that are the backbone of this so-called "guy code."
 

marrec

Banned
Then you misunderstand. I'm not comparing humans with other animals and saying we are exactly like them. Obviously we are much more complex in terms of behaviour. However, there are observable behaviours in other animals that are comparable to humans. Chimps especially as they are evolutionary very close to us. I'm not saying we are exactly the same, only that there are distinct masculine traits within those animals, so why isn't there in humans? Why is it any different? It's like debating why men act aggressively. Well, there is probably an instinctual reason for it. Not the only reason. The difference is we are incredibly intelligent and evolved to be completely self-aware. If many other male animals act in a way that is characteristic of a type of masculinity then surely it would be the same with us?

Regardless of how animals act or reasons for our behavior in the context of baser instincts its important to recognize that these baser reactions to behavior that does not typically describe a man are holding us back as a gender.
 

leadbelly

Banned
Uh... why can't it be both? Yes, much of the "guy code" is societal, but men also have a lot more testosterone, which leads to the sort of aggressive and competitive behavior that are the backbone of this so-called "guy code."

Exactly. I do find it odd that we speak about these things as if we don't have instinctual triggers. One of the most powerful instinctual impulses in all animals is the desire to procreate. The need to spread our seed. We can all talk about the complexity of the relationship, but you can boil it all down to something quite primitive: an impulse to mate.

I don't think of us as merely animals as I have said. What I do, do though is get rid of all the complexity and look at it terms of basic drives. It is not simply intelligence that makes us the way we are, it is our ability to self-analyse and understand the world around us.
 

leadbelly

Banned
Regardless of how animals act or reasons for our behavior in the context of baser instincts its important to recognize that these baser reactions to behavior that does not typically describe a man are holding us back as a gender.

Yes, but actually the point I am really making is, those more primitive drives will always be there. People will still get angry, people will still disagree on things. Why do they get angry? Well there are whole host a complex reasons for why we get angry, but the real reason is the instinctual drive, the emotion is there. It is part of our nature.

Men will always have behaviours that are typically masculine. The reason is masculinity is just as much biological as it is cultural.
 

marrec

Banned
Yes, but actually the point I am really making is, those more primitive drives will always be there. People will still get angry, people will still disagree on things. Why do they get angry? Well there are whole host a complex reasons for why we get angry, but the real reason is the instinctual drive, the emotion is there. It is part of our nature.

Men will always have behaviours that are typically masculine. The reason is masculinity is just as much biological as it is cultural.

If this is the case then why can't we express our masculinity in motr emotionally productive ways? Or are we forever doomed to tell our Sons 'Men don't cry.'?
 

fireside

Member
I didn't know it really needed an explanation, honestly. You're trying to paint the cause as being because the rules of masculinity dictate you behave like that, and that's simply not the case and is a misinterpretation of events on your part. People get reviled to being gay or being fruity or what have you simply because people take issue with what is different. It's about intolerance, plain and simple. Intolerance isn't a trait of masculinity and tolerance isn't a trait of femininity. Intolerance and tolerance have nothing to do with sexual identity and everything to do with prejudice and hate. Masculinity is just one tool of many tools that hateful people use to make sure groups they hate are marginalized, and it's gong to happen regardless of how you define masculinity. There's absolutely no point in conflating masculinity with required homophobia, because it's not remotely the same. I don't know why it's hard to see that.

Intolerance stems from the hatred of the “different”. And the only difference in many cases is a perceived lack of masculinity.
 

leadbelly

Banned
If this is the case then why can't we express our masculinity in motr emotionally productive ways? Or are we forever doomed to tell our Sons 'Men don't cry.'?

I'm not saying we can't.

What we are doing right now no other animal is capable of. That is debating our own nature. I'm not arguing about how we should live our lives, I am objectively looking at the possible reasons for why certain behaviours and traits are viewed as being masculine.

Of course we're not barbarians. We live our lvies with a certain code of conduct.
 
If this is the case then why can't we express our masculinity in motr emotionally productive ways? Or are we forever doomed to tell our Sons 'Men don't cry.'?

But as AWF said on the last page, "Men don't cry" isn't so much an expression of an expectation of lack of emotion as it is the belief that it's important to be in control of your emotions and express them in appropriate contexts. Men have ALWAYS cried and always will, be it from a particularly moving piece of art or from personal tragedy, and I don't think there are many who look down on this; the idea that it's some big taboo to have a sensitive side among other men is a) limited in terms of its application, since I'm sure even the broiest group of bros wouldn't scorn somebody for getting choked up at the Holocaust museum or when somebody dies or something like that, and b) already on the decline, I'd say, since I know people my age are generally pretty accepting of most traditionally "non-masculine" people.
 

leadbelly

Banned
But as AWF said on the last page, "Men don't cry" isn't so much an expression of an expectation of lack of emotion as it is the belief that it's important to be in control of your emotions and express them in appropriate contexts. Men have ALWAYS cried and always will, be it from a particularly moving piece of art or from personal tragedy, and I don't think there are many who look down on this; the idea that it's some big taboo to have a sensitive side among other men is a) limited in terms of its application, since I'm sure even the broiest group of bros wouldn't scorn somebody for getting choked up at the Holocaust museum or when somebody dies or something like that, and b) already on the decline, I'd say, since I know people my age are generally pretty accepting of most traditionally "non-masculine" people.

Yeah. I read that and I agree to a degree.

Again my view is quite basic. It's a show of weakness. When it's the male's job to be protector of the family or of the group, he must show himself as strong.
 

Mumei

Member
In any case, relating to homophobia, I think again you're casting it that it was masculine ideals themselves that caused homosexuals to be view as less than men, and not pre-existing hatred for homosexuals (most likely instilled by religious views) that caused the other issue. Believe it or not there is a huge swath of the gay male community that is the exact opposite of feminine. Some of them probably fall out to be more stereotypically masculine than average.

The conflation of masculinity with heterosexuality was developed in the first few decades of the twentieth-century:

This book argues that in important respects the hetero-homosexual binarism, the sexual regime now hegemonic in American culture, is a stunningly recent creation. Particularly in working-class culture, homosexual behavior per se became the primary basis for the labeling and self-identification of men as "queer" only around the middle of the twentieth century; before then, most men were so labeled only if they displayed a much broader inversion of their ascribed gender status by assuming the sexual and other cultural roles ascribed to women. The abnormality (or "queerness") of the "fairy," that is, was defined as much by his "woman-like" character or "effeminacy" as his solicitations of male sexual partners; the "man" who responded to his solicitations - no matter how often - was not considered abnormal, a "homosexual," so long as he abided by masculine gender conventions. Indeed, the centrality of effeminacy to the representation of the "fairy" allowed many conventionally masculine men, especially unmarried men living in sex-segregated immigrant communities, to engage in extensive sexual activity with other men without risking stigmatization and the loss of their status as "normal men."

[...]

Heterosexuality had not become a precondition of gender normativity in early-twentieth-century working-class culture. Men had to be many things in order to achieve the status of "normal" men, but being "heterosexual" was not one of them.

[...]

In a culture in which becoming a fairy meant assuming the status of a woman or even a prostitute, many men, like the clerk, simply refused to do so. Some of them restricted themselves to the role of "trade," becoming the nominally "normal" partners of "queers" (although this did not account for most such men). Many others simply "did it," without naming it, freed from having to label themselves by the certainty that, at least, they were not fairies. But many men aware of sexual desires for other men, like the clerk, struggled to forge an alternative identity and cultural stance, one that would distinguish them from fairies and "normal" men alike. Even their efforts, however, were profoundly shaped by the cultural presumption that sexual desire for men was inherently a feminine desire. That presumption made the identity they sought to construct a queer one indeed: unwilling to become virtual women, they sought to remain men who nonetheless loved other men.

The efforts of such men marked the growing differentiation and isolation of sexuality from gender in middle-class American culture. Whereas fairies' desire for men was thought to follow inevitably from their gender persona, queers maintained that their desire for men revealed only their "sexuality" (their "homosexuality), a distinct domain of personality independent of gender. Their homosexuality, they argued, revealed nothing abnormal in their gender persona. The effort to forge a new kind of homosexual identity was predominantly a middle-class phenomenon, and the emergence of "homosexuals" in middle-class culture was inextricably linked to the emergence of "heterosexuals" in that culture as well. If many workingmen thought they demonstrated sexual virility by playing the "man's part" in sexual encounters with either women or men, normal middle-class men increasingly believed that their virility depended on their exclusive sexual interest in women. Even as queer men began to define their difference from other men on the basis of their homosexuality, "normal" men began to define their difference from queers on the basis of their renunciation of any sentiments or behavior that might be marked as homosexual. Only when they did so did "normal men" become "heterosexual men." As Jonathan Katz has suggested, heterosexuality was an invention of the late nineteenth century. The "heterosexual" and "homosexual" emerged in tandem at the turn of the century as powerful new ways of conceptualizing human sexual practices."


The redefining of masculinity as being intrinsically tied to one's heterosexuality and defining it in opposition to homosexuality was the way that heterosexual masculinity was conceived. The idea that, as the homosexuals in the book argued, sexuality is not representative of gender persona - and that gay men are just as capable of being masculine - has only very recently gained any credence in straight society, and that idea is by no means universally accepted. Even among men who do believe that, there are still holdover beliefs like men who define their masculinity in terms of sexual performance with women.

To suggest that popular conceptions of masculinity and homophobia are not related is to completely ignore the way that homophobic bullying functions as a form of gender policing and limits the number of acceptable ways it is to be masculine. It ignores the way that male students who fail to meet certain standards of masculinity as sexually harassed while at school:

There are myriad causes and contributing factors regarding why sexual and gender-based harassment and bullying exists, as discussed in chatper 9. The root cause is something called hegemonic masculinity, sometimes also referred to as patriarchy, a system that often unconsciously establishes a gender hierarchy with heterosexual males on top, and females and males who don't meet with traditional masculine norms, below. Patriarchy is played out in our media, clothing, movies, sports, television programs, and aggression, to name a few.

[...]

Every day in school, GLBT youth face harassment. As well, straight youth who do not fit the stereotype of masculinity or femininity are harassed because of their style of dress, the way they walk, or their general demeanor. It is all about fitting into the patriarchal norms of the school's culture, and of society. Sadly, teachers and other staff often witness the name calling and other physical and verbabl assaults - but fail to intervene. Other times, teachers are the harassers, further jeopardizing these students' safety. GLBT youth are protected under civil rights laws in some states, but there is a lack of consistency for protection. When these youth are harassed and fear for their safety, they cannot participate fully in the learning opportunities, resulting in long-lasting consequences.

"Both teens and adults viewed the sexual harassment of teenagers as normal adolescent behavior, which challenges the impetus for teachers to intervene when it is observed. The belief that sexual harassment is typical of adolescents is evidence of how entrenched the idea is in the schools, adolescent relationships, and male dominance. Beacuse sexual harassment in the school setting is of normal, everyday life for many girls (and boys who don't fit the masculine stereotype), they have difficulty in even identifying offensive behavior as harassment. But girls who have attended school in both single sex and mixed gendered schools recognizing the sexist behavior in mixed gendered schools.​

As someone who has experienced sexual harassment and bullying that was done in front of teachers on multiple occasions without rebuke or commentary, I think it exposes a great deal of ignorance about both how masculinity has historically - over the last sixty years - been constructed in opposition to heterosexuality, how those cultural ideas are still very powerful and still have advocates (even in modified forms) today, how kids are influenced by the culture around them and pick up on these behaviors, and how the implicit approval of them (by authority figures refusing to intervene) encourages homophobic, gendered harassment, to argue that masculine ideals are not directly connected to homophobia.
 

squidyj

Member
This entire thread is doing my head in, protector? protect from what? Economic deprevation is by far a more pressing concern than random attacks by lions tigers and bears oh my. I guess that's why someone might want to be head honcho primo breadwinner, no wonder we have such bullshit, people clinging on to the only clearly percieved roles they have even as those roles fade into irrelevancy and confusion for the rest. I mean, what use could you possibly be to society, what could a woman possibly ever fucking see in you if you couldn't act like a man.
act like a man indeed, Some people think acting like a man means splattering some other guys brain on the sidewalk because they didn't demonstrate the proper level of 'respect'. So I guess it really comes down to what you think it means to be a man, and then we're right back where we started all over again.

not showing weakness is just as bad, no wonder dudes don't want to go see doctors or get their heads checked or any number of things to preserve themselves and their health, we've got people in here trying to say that you can't afford to show weakness. You gotta be tough, gotta be strong. Parroting and echoing the very things the book is talking about without having the faintest inkling of self awareness.
 

leadbelly

Banned
This entire thread is doing my head in, protector? protect from what? Economic deprevation is by far a more pressing concern than random attacks by lions tigers and bears oh my. I guess that's why someone might want to be head honcho primo breadwinner, no wonder we have such bullshit, people clinging on to the only clearly percieved roles they have even as those roles fade into irrelevancy and confusion for the rest. I mean, what use could you possibly be to society, what could a woman possibly ever fucking see in you if you couldn't act like a man.
act like a man indeed, Some people think acting like a man means splattering some other guys brain on the sidewalk because they didn't demonstrate the proper level of 'respect'. So I guess it really comes down to what you think it means to be a man, and then we're right back where we started all over again.

not showing weakness is just as bad, no wonder dudes don't want to go see doctors or get their heads checked or any number of things to preserve themselves and their health, we've got people in here trying to say that you can't afford to show weakness. You gotta be tough, gotta be strong. Parroting and echoing the very things the book is talking about without having the faintest inkling of self awareness.

Again, you misunderstand me. Has no real relevance to modern society as such. I'm not saying you must show yourself as being strong. If you went back thousands of years ago to mroe tribal societies, what was the job of the male within that group?
 

Mumei

Member
Again, you misunderstand me. Has no real relevance to modern society as such. I'm not saying you must show yourself as being strong. If you went back thousands of years ago to mroe tribal societies, what was the job of the male within that group?

Exactly who gives a damn about thousands of years ago?
 

leadbelly

Banned
Exactly who gives a damn about thousands of years ago?

lol

It's not so much about giving a damn, it is simply how the world works. There are men that walk all over other men they see as weak. Prison is a good example of this really. Got to stay strong. Any sign of weakness and you're screwed.

I think it always be the same because it is within our nature. Not to say everyone is like that. Some apeas are born weak and are walked all over by more dominant apes. Sorry, for comparing it to other animals again, but my point is, just because not all act in that way doesn't mean it doesnt have a natural function.

However, I have my own outlook on life just as everyone else does. I am not someone who would walk all over other people. In fact I try to help others as best I can. The thing is though, I understand that mentality, and as kid there were times when I acted in that way.
 

leadbelly

Banned
Leadbelly who's trying so hard to explain away social constructs as evolutionary theory despite the fact they're social constructs.

Again no. I'm trying to explain that we have instinctual drives like every other animal on this planet. Masculine traits like many other animals on this planet. Society is totally irrelevant. I'm not talking social constructs in any way. I'm not saying society has no part in it. Just accepting the obvious that we do have instinctual drives.

As I said from the beginning, you can't really explore this objectively. People only want to hear what is agreeable to their own ideology.
 

Mumei

Member
lol

It's not so much about giving a damn, it is simply how the world works. There are men that walk all over other men they see as weak. Prison is a good example of this really. Got to stay strong. Any sign of weakness and you're screwed.

I think it always be the same because it is within our nature. Not to say everyone is like that. Some apeas are born weak and are walked all over by more dominant apes. Sorry, for comparing it to other animals again, but my point is, just because not all act in that way doesn't mean it doesnt have a natural function.

However, I have my own outlook on life just as everyone else does. I am not someone who would walk all over other people. In fact I try to help others as best I can. The thing is though, I understand that mentality, and as kid there were times when I acted in that way.

What relevance - and don't explain in glittering generalities; I'd like a specific example (examples would be better) - does your evolutionary psychology have in a discussion about how that list of masculine traits derived from social constructed notions of masculinity that college men the author spoke to ascribe to represents an overly rigid definition of acceptable ways to be masculine and that this results in more sexual assault, more rape, more homophobic bullying and sexual harassment (and sexual harassment in general of women, not just men)?

I just don't get how you think your posts about chimpanzees - who might have some limited social construction within the confines of a single troops - contribute or are relevant to a discussion about how the way that masculinity is constructed today is overly narrow, especially when this modern construction of masculinity is not particularly old and there have been other constructions of masculinity that weren't as tied up in these same ideals (e.g. for instance, at one time effusive displays of emotion were considered normal behavior that didn't reflect on a man's masculinity; today that isn't broadly true).
 

leadbelly

Banned
What's the line between genetics and social constructs then? I don't know myself.

I have said before it is completely blurred. Part of the consequence of being completely self-aware fo our own nature is we contradict it. Surely men are more aggressive though than females in general. Surely that has a biological reason for it. Testosterone for instance. Surely that can lead to a characteristic you can identify as a masculine trait. To solve problems by aggression. The plight of a warrior. A protector of the group.
 

marrec

Banned
I have said before it is completely blurred. Part of the consequence of being completely self-aware fo our own nature is we contradict it. Surely men are more aggressive though than females in general. Surely that has a biological reason for it. Testosterone for instance. Surely that can lead to charcteristic of a masculine trait. To solve problems by aggression. The plight of a warrior. A protector of the group.

leadbelly, I respect your opinions on the biological pressures that cause men to act the way they do, but that's not what this discussion should be about. In fact I think it romanticizes the idea of how marginalized we as men are becoming. We need to talk about how men perceive themselves affect our societal development, or lack thereof. This talk of biological pressures is ultimately ephemeral because it doesn't resolve anything.
 
The Anti-Monitor said:
And am I less of a woman if I act that way? Or how does that go?

Not at all, but they are certainly things people in a position of power do.

I did. Your comparisons to animals are still irrelevant. I reject your position that any observed behaviour in animals can form any kind of comparative base for complex human societal behaviour. 'The guy code' is an intellectual problem born out of traditional gender roles, not an evolutionary one.

Human behavior and animal behavior are both ruled by basic biological forces. From reproductive instincts, to group dynamics/courtship we are very similar. EXCEPT we have society/moral constructs that prevent us from doing a lot of things animals do.

Masculinity, the idea of the alpha male, and domination are all prevalent in nature.
 

Reuenthal

Banned
There are positives in masculine identity/behavior.

The solution is: remove the bigotry, don't start expecting men to not behave like men (but at the same time humans are different and men are different, but you can see some uniformity in behaviors despite differences, you can also see some uniformity with how most women behave despite differences).

Rather than trying to reexamine whether masculinity is a good thing, I just say go the other way around and say that homophobia for example is a bad thing and bigotry is a bad thing. At the end of the day, this is less about masculinity and more about discouraging very negative behaviors. To what extend someone ties their masculinity with bigotry against what is different, I guess that person might have to reexamine their identity. But a masculine identity without negative elements can survive. And I do expect to see some uniformity in behaviors in the future as well even as people become more tolerant, change somewhat, etc.
 
Why do guys try so hard to act "guyish"? I don't get it.

Contrary to popular belief, men before the 1960's were hardly the role models you imagine them to be.

These definitions of masculinity as so pervasive as to feel hard-coded, really, but they're clearly exclusionary and outmoded, too. How do we say "being a man is about conquering desirable women and not having feelings and beating people up" and simultaneously say that there's nothing wrong with being gay or to be able to express yourself how you want? The concepts are at odds. This is how you have situations like a father being disappointed in his son for being incapable of fulfilling masculine ideals.

This makes too much sense.
 

leadbelly

Banned
What relevance - and don't explain in glittering generalities; I'd like a specific example (examples would be better) - does your evolutionary psychology have in a discussion about how that list of masculine traits derived from social constructed notions of masculinity that college men the author spoke to ascribe to represents an overly rigid definition of acceptable ways to be masculine and that this results in more sexual assault, more rape, more homophobic bullying and sexual harassment (and sexual harassment in general of women, not just men)?

I just don't get how you think your posts about chimpanzees - who might have some limited social construction within the confines of a single troops - contribute or are relevant to a discussion about how the way that masculinity is constructed today is overly narrow, especially when this modern construction of masculinity is not particularly old and there have been other constructions of masculinity that weren't as tied up in these same ideals (e.g. for instance, at one time effusive displays of emotion were considered normal behavior that didn't reflect on a man's masculinity; today that isn't broadly true).

Well, I've sort of explained my train fo thought in my last post. Who said I was even debating rape, homophobia, or sexual harrassment? I was talking about masculine traits in general. Why is that not relevant to the topic at hand?

It is sort of.
 

leadbelly

Banned
leadbelly, I respect your opinions on the biological pressures that cause men to act the way they do, but that's not what this discussion should be about. In fact I think it romanticizes the idea of how marginalized we as men are becoming. We need to talk about how men perceive themselves affect our societal development, or lack thereof. This talk of biological pressures is ultimately ephemeral because it doesn't resolve anything.

Yeah. here's the thing marrec. My point of view was never about how we should live our lives, it is merely looking objectively at what makes us male. What happens though is people jump on to your post and misunderstand your point. You then spend most the time trying explain your point. I had no real intention of taking this topic down this route,
 

Reuenthal

Banned
You are inevitably going to get people who feel proud on having sex with many women and look down upon those who don't and feel that doing so validates their identity. I don't think this reaction is purely social. And if you don't call the above masculinity, the same feeling will still exist and be called differently and they will feel proud for being part of the above.

You will also get many other young men who don't feel that way.

I think some behaviors will persist and are not purely social constructs. Or they are social constructs are influenced by innate desires. Although we can modify behaviors to some extend through culture or at least try to make people who have different identities, and views, be tolerant of each other.
 

marrec

Banned
Yeah. here's the thing marrec. My point of view was never about how we should live our lives, it is merely looking objectively at what makes us male. What happens though is people jump on to your post and misunderstand your point. You then spend most the time trying explain your point. I had no real intention of taking this topic down this route,

That's fine and like I said I respect that opinion. Regardless of the root of the behavior we as men should be discussing how badly it's stunted our societal growth. We are stuck in 1950 while having to deal with an ever changing view of gender. Everything else is changing around us and here we stand pretending it isn't happening or in some cases redoubling our efforts to be 'Men'.

How so? because of the pressure some feel to act that way?

Absolutely that. We'll start with the pressures put on teenaged men to be some kind of amalgamation of 'Alpha Male' that isn't clearly defined except for something that is aggressive and emotionally shallow.
 

Reuenthal

Banned
That's fine and like I said I respect that opinion. Regardless of the root of the behavior we as men should be discussing how badly it's stunted our societal growth. We are stuck in 1950 while having to deal with an ever changing view of gender. Everything else is changing around us and here we stand pretending it isn't happening or in some cases redoubling our efforts to be 'Men'.

Men are stuck in the 50s? On what do you base this? I also find your whole masculinity is a bad thing/detrimental to men, to be sort of odd.
 

leadbelly

Banned
Leadbelly who's trying so hard to explain away social constructs as evolutionary theory despite the fact they're social constructs.

lol

And again devo, do you honestly believe that we are complete blank canvas? That our gender is completely determinded by society and only society? That there is no difference between male and female behaviour it is all a social construct?

I simply said there is an element of truth to some of those masculine traits.
 

marrec

Banned
Men are stuck in the 50s? On what do you base this? I also find your whole masculinity is a bad thing/detrimental to men, to be sort of odd.

Being a male isn't a bad thing, but we've been stuck with the same idea of what a male is since the 50s.

That's a bad thing.
 
A lot of these things are perpetuated by women as much as they are by men. When i go out with the women i know they happily talk about what they expect from men and much of it comes straight from these stereotypes. They go as far as actually saying they want a real man and even talk about the size matters thing (and they do it right in front of me as well). It's not only men carrying these perceptions.
 

Mumei

Member
Well, I've sort of explained my train fo thought in my last post. Who said I was even debating rape, homophobia, or sexual harrassment? I was talking about masculine traits in general. Why is that not relevant to the topic at hand?

It is sort of.

And again, what relevance does that have to a discussion about how this socially constructed concept of masculinity is overly rigid? Take your example of men having more testosterone and are therefore more aggressive. So then what? What point are you trying to make by bringing that up/ Or take your post about weak and dominant apes. Everyone is aware that there are weak and dominant apes. So how are you relating that to this topic? So some boys are likely to be stronger and more aggressive than other boys, and it is competitive and dominant behavior between male mammals in general and primates is a common event. So what? We're all aware of this. Unless you're advocating that, say, teachers shouldn't intervene or that we should just shrug our shoulders - as you appear to - and say "Well it's natural; some males are just going to be more dominant."

You seem to simply be posting random snippets of evolutionary popular psychology without really saying anything broader - unless I've missed it, in which case direct me to the paragraph.

And Reuenthal, I think your post isn't completely wrong, but I think it misses the point that so long as masculinity is defined in the way that it is now - and not in the expansive and enlightened way that Walrus and his social circle (or myself and my friends, for that matter) define it - that maintaining traditional concepts of masculinity while opposing homophobia will be working at cross-odds with one another. I don't think it's about defining masculinity as good or bad as it is about expanding the ways that it is acceptable to be and still be considered masculine.
 

Reuenthal

Banned
Being a male isn't a bad thing, but we've been stuck with the same idea of what a male is since the 50s.

That's a bad thing.

Have we? Do you think we would have the same discussions like these in the 50s, that there was as much acceptance of women rights, equality (and how a woman can be equal to a man , and it would be hard to show that man-woman roles in a relationship have remained the same as they were in the fifties) acceptance of homosexuals, etc among men in the 50s and today?

Also the OP is about high school and college men which in itself is just a fraction of men. Yes men at different ages can be different and see differently their masculine identity. (Of course some uniformity might exist despite different ages). I wouldn't be expecting the most mature views of masculinity in high school ages for example.
 

marrec

Banned
Have we? Do you think we would have discussions like these in the 50s, that there was as much acceptance of women rights, equality (and how a woman can be equal to a male, and man-woman roles in a relationship) acceptance of homosexuals, etc among men in the 50s and today?

Also the OP is about high school and college men which in itself is just a fraction of men. Yes men at different ages can be different and see differently their masculine identity. (Of course some uniformity might exist despite different ages). I wouldn't be expecting the most mature views of masculinity in high school ages for example.

All valid points but not relevant to the discussion. If anything in the past 5 years the backlash to women's rights has grown exponentially among young men on the internet. MRA has become some crazy and hateful thing that has nothing to do with MRA. But this is irrelevant as well and we should make this about how women's rights has affected men.

Acceptance of homosexuals has come leaps and bounds, but for whatever reason feminine traits in men are insulted as homosexual today just as much as they were decades ago.

The OP is specifically about high school and college men because these are the future of our generation of men. These men are going to join society with built in biases that are harmful.
 

fireside

Member
Also the OP is about high school and college men which in itself is just a fraction of men. Yes men at different ages can be different and see differently their masculine identity. (Of course some uniformity might exist despite different ages). I wouldn't be expecting the most mature views of masculinity in high school ages for example.

Where do you think these young men get their views of masculinity? You seem to be implying that young men eventually grow out of these immature views of masculinity. If that were true, wouldn’t they be influencing the next generation of boys to hold more mature views of masculinity? But that doesn’t seem to be happening.
 
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