It's better than having the boat traveling in some lil cartoon with a picture of the slaves all Tetris'd on the side of it.
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So you can Slave Trade on a Steam game now
- Thread starter DryvBy
- Start date
It's better than having the boat traveling in some lil cartoon with a picture of the slaves all Tetris'd on the side of it.
BibiMaghoo
Member
I was on board with the potential premise when entering the thread. Slave tetris seems way, way too far. That is making a mockery of deaths in such circumstances, rewarding the player for cramming in as many slaves as possible. That is just nasty.
Portugeezer
Member
The thing I wonder about the slave tetris is if it actually affects their health if you put a lot of them in, or is it just some game mechanic for no reason?
Shadowhaxor
Member
I know what ill be writing about on my site today..... wtf is this shit.
Slave tetris aside, watching the gameplay video I don't see something particularly offensive.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dP7gPNTiNuU
Trying to disseminate some of the worst parts of our history to children is inherently difficult.
I noticed they even pointed out that economic slavery, and other forms, are still rampant to this day. The main character even runs into his sister he lost when he became a slave, allowing kids to relate and grasp the true horror of the situation.
Should they even have attempted this? I don't personally have kids so I can't say for certain, but I think the reaction is a bit overblown...Throw out that slave tetris though. That is seriously bad.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dP7gPNTiNuU
Trying to disseminate some of the worst parts of our history to children is inherently difficult.
I noticed they even pointed out that economic slavery, and other forms, are still rampant to this day. The main character even runs into his sister he lost when he became a slave, allowing kids to relate and grasp the true horror of the situation.
Should they even have attempted this? I don't personally have kids so I can't say for certain, but I think the reaction is a bit overblown...Throw out that slave tetris though. That is seriously bad.
It's a GREAT comparison... It's the correct way to make a game with a touchy subject matter...
For those interested in another example of how historical knowledge can be presented in a child friendly way, I strongly suggest watching Once Upon a Time... Man. It's a french animated TV series (there are other spinoffs for human anatomy and so on), and things are also simplified with an overall upbeat atmosphere - like you would expect in a format targeted at kids.
Btw some the reviews on the steam page are simply shameful and disgusting, why don't people in this thread get upset about those?
And I would really love if people learned a bit more about the game before tearing it apart. Did you know, for example, that the game is meant to be used as a teaching tool in school? They even have a configuration tool for the teacher to adjust things. So as usual, it's all about context, and screaming omg lol slave tetris is a very very cheap shot, I'm a bit disappointed by Jim Sterling (yes the video was funny, but he took things waaaay to literally just to have some fun at the game's expense).
PS: If somebody has seen more of the game than just the images in OP and is offended, I'd love to hear which parts are distasteful, or misrepresenting facts. Again, please bear in mind that the game is targeted at children, so it would be helpful to know in which way it teaches children wrong things..
Btw some the reviews on the steam page are simply shameful and disgusting, why don't people in this thread get upset about those?
And I would really love if people learned a bit more about the game before tearing it apart. Did you know, for example, that the game is meant to be used as a teaching tool in school? They even have a configuration tool for the teacher to adjust things. So as usual, it's all about context, and screaming omg lol slave tetris is a very very cheap shot, I'm a bit disappointed by Jim Sterling (yes the video was funny, but he took things waaaay to literally just to have some fun at the game's expense).
PS: If somebody has seen more of the game than just the images in OP and is offended, I'd love to hear which parts are distasteful, or misrepresenting facts. Again, please bear in mind that the game is targeted at children, so it would be helpful to know in which way it teaches children wrong things..
DryvBy
Member
After playing it myself, I don't even think it's as offensive as it looks. I thought maybe this was originally a giant satire educational game, but it seems very much like a light-hearted attempt to get kids to maybe investigate on their own afterwards. Even the mouse is there just to guide kids as a clue giver.
But some things are very weird. For example in Africa, they have an AK-47 sitting around. Um, sure. Ok.
Taken as a parody of the real world slave tetris.
Its actually quite disturbing and effective.
Slavers really did try and tetris as many slaves as they could into one boat.
Thanks for your reply, and I'm happy you have actually played the game. About the AK I can only guess, but I would assume they try to make a connection to present day, where slavery sadly still exists. In the minigame where you have to spot differences between two images, there is also a slave trader depicted with an AK, and it's pretty clear one image is set in the past and one in present time. The message: certain things like technology and so have changed, but it's still the same: people are being abused and not granted even the most basic form of human rights.
Hope that makes sense, I had to go by the videos I've seen, don't have a computer available atm to play it myself.
Edit: come to think about, the whole time glasses thing is pretty certainly an attempt to make children connect / compare the past happenings to the present time, which imo is absolutely central in learning about history. But I can't really judge if they succeeded in doing so since I haven't played it myself (or even better, seen children play it in class, guided by their teacher).
It's their plattform, freedom of speech or whatever has nothing to do with Steam.
No, it's our platform and we don't want it censored, Valve understands this. Can't say I approve of games like Hatred and Slave Trade simulation but the userbase asked for them so be it. Better this than any form of censorship.
Gordon Shumway
Banned
Yeah. I know very well what that picture was. I was a bit surprised you didn't, hence the wow. Didn't understand how you got Tetris from that image..just me, I guess.
Yeah..good luck with that..
Mrs. Manky
Banned
That's some tacky, tasteless shit.
To be honest, if someone told me that this was satire for adults a la South Park, I would have kept it moving. But this is for children. And it's /rewarding/ the child who plays the game for properly "packing" the slaves in. Think about it.
To be honest, if someone told me that this was satire for adults a la South Park, I would have kept it moving. But this is for children. And it's /rewarding/ the child who plays the game for properly "packing" the slaves in. Think about it.
This actually makes a lot of sense. What are they supposed to do? Gloss over the disgusting sardine-like traveling conditions of slaves across the ocean? In Tetris players just think about the objects as shapes and how to efficiently stack them, so bringing in that mindset to the slave trade makes us realize that the slave industry felt very little for the well being of the slaves, let alone thinking of them as people. We're supposed to feel wretched about that minigame. The slave trade wasn't pretty! My initial outrage has been quelled.
Daria Morgendorffer
Member
Wow, talk about some overblown reactions, I read the thread before watching a video about it and I was expecting some horrible stuff.
I don't think there is anything wrong with the slave tetrtetris either, it's just a way to show kids that the slaves were put together like cargo.
I don't think there is anything wrong with the slave tetrtetris either, it's just a way to show kids that the slaves were put together like cargo.
This is simply not true, sorry. The game does not reward the children in any way for playing this part better (edit: yes there is a score counter, but there is no high score list, no adding up, no bonuses no nothing that I can see). On the contrary, it clearly states (before and after the segment) how inhumane this practice was / is. edit: My personal take is that this part is very strong, since it puts the player (pupil) in the position where he / she automatically starts to think how to "play" it best. But then inevitably you notice that you are packing living humans, many of whom will die during the journey. I could not come up with a better metaphor and am certain that most children that have actually played this part will remember it for a long time, and certainly not for it being fun. Sounds like a successfuyl learned lesson to me.
I really would love to discuss with people about whether the themes, mechanics and depictions in this game are apropriate for the serious topic it touches and the intended target audience, but it's hard to do so when people are not even willing to learn more about it before dismissing it wholesale.
Just my 2 cents..
PS: If the game was intended for adult players, I would appreciate if the game actually would punish the player for not stacking the slaves well enough (e.g. you get whipped as punishment afterwards). But at the same time, if you do well, you will be shown how more of the slaves (perhaps even your sister) die because of you. Yes that is brutal, inhumane, unethical, disgusting, depressing and more.
But this thing happens in our reality here and now, and I see no reason why games should not be allowed to treat these topics. If somebody prefers to just ignore reality, I would suggest doing the same for a fictional media played on a computer screen.
serversurfer
Member
I was thinking the same. And just think, were it not for Slave Tetris, they'd still have no idea.
Chainsawkitten
Member
It increases your score, though.
Krappadizzle
Member
"Aside from the offensive part I don't see how it's offensive." C'mon man.
I mean, you're right, it wasn't done intentionally in a mean-spirit. It just shouldn't have been done if they are gonna put the minimal amount of effort into it. Especially considering the topic and the state of USA and all it's racial tension. I don't think people are complaining about the subject matter, they are complaining on how it's presented, which I think most of will agree is pretty distasteful.
Correct, please see my edit above!
Is this game envisioned for american audiences, though? I mean sure, you can buy it now that's on steam and available worldwide, but I would like to confirm what target audience the devs were going to before calling for a witch hunt.
Maybe slavery is not so taboo elsewhere in the world, you know.
I guess this is the central point where the discussion could really add up to something productive. I take it you feel offended by the content, can you elaborate which part of it is distasteful in your view? This is not meant dismissive in any way even though I view it differently, I would just like to learn more about why people have a problem with the depictions.
Edit: After thinking about it a little more, I guess I can understand the reaction from (I assume, please correct me if wrong) American people in particular regarding this game a little more. Many Europeans (especially Germasn and also definitely jewish people around the world) might take offence if there was a similar game treating concentration camps in WW2. My personal stance would still be the same though: I think such a game should be made, even though it is extremely difficult not to offend groups of people since the topic is so serious (and in many cases affecting people personally to this very day).
Sorry again if I came across as insensitive, I admittedly am not a big fan of political correctness but I try my best not to offend people in a personal, demeaning way.
I guess I gotta search this up now because I am too curious a person.
The developer has offices in Denmark, Sweden and the U.S., so I assume their games are not solely intended for European pupils, even though it seems it's where their roots are. On their learning portal they mention a report by the Federation of American Scientists, and their prices are given in US Dollars. So make of that, what you will
The developer has offices in Denmark, Sweden and the U.S., so I assume their games are not solely intended for European pupils, even though it seems it's where their roots are. On their learning portal they mention a report by the Federation of American Scientists, and their prices are given in US Dollars. So make of that, what you will
Here's the link involving the Playing History series. Games seem to be vastly made for danish audiences, for grades 4-6, although the games are also in other Scandinavian languages + English, so I guess they are more than willing to ship the game elsewhere.
I do know what that picture is. I assumed the other poster thought it was a screenshot of the game. Hence the incredulous quotation marks.
So this game already educated some people even right here in this thread.
Mrs. Manky
Banned
So, there /is/ a score counter. Is there an "achievement unlocked" when that section is completed? This still doesn't come across as a negative reinforcement if you're keeping score.
If the point of the exercise is "packing people into the hull of a ship is horrifyingly inhumane" then why make the player do the packing in the first place?
I admit, I'm not an educator or a games designer. But I don't think you need to be either to see that this might seem insulting to some people. Especially people who are descended from the slaves that were packed into those ships. This isn't an adult or mature game like MGS or Grand Theft Auto, this is a game meant for children, and as such should be held to a higher standard with the understanding of how children learn.
Good find. The english version of the page specifically links to a pdf file[/b] that has UK in the name. So it doesn't seem far fetched the developers were targeting european history classes rather than american.
So it seems to me (at least going by the reactions in this thread so far), that this whole discussion is really about cultural differences between europeans and americans, in particular where sensitivities differ regarding historical events, and how much emphasis the public discussion puts on trying their best not to discriminate against groups of people.
Somebody please intervene if I am oversimpliying the matter!
serversurfer
Member
That's life in the big house, kid.
Not to be too flip about it, but again, this is a pretty accurate depiction of slavery. Either assist in the subjugation of your people and enjoy the rewards that come along with that or join them in subjugation.
Didn't someone also say something about a trust meter that goes down when you lie to Master? So it sounds like you have some ability to undermine their authority, but that of course is contingent on maintaining your own position of authority. Again, a pretty accurate depiction of a life of subjugation, I'd say.
When I read the title I thought it had something to do with a new way of trading games in your steam library, but wow, I was not expecting this.
Coming from the same dev in 2016. Auchwitz: A Jewish survival horror story*
*
On a side note I don't think that gaming as a medium has grown up enough yet, in comparison to other media, to tackle some of the truly horrific moments of human history
Coming from the same dev in 2016. Auchwitz: A Jewish survival horror story*
*
That's a joke by the way, at the expense of the devs.
On a side note I don't think that gaming as a medium has grown up enough yet, in comparison to other media, to tackle some of the truly horrific moments of human history
redmetal86
Member
Huh, Slave Tetris. I bet it doesn't even have t-spins.
Krappadizzle
Member
Well the slave trade was directly influenced by the American society of the time and is a shameful part of American History's culture. It's compounded by the fact that their are some major racial issues all over the country from the East to the West. I guess you could say that maybe American's possibly weren't the target audience, but that'd be a stretch as American's were directly responsible for propagating slavery, and fought tooth and nail to keep Slavery and State rights independent from half the country and I'd like to think they probably want to sell to the huge audience of parents that would want their children to learn about the Civil War. Especially considering that that is the topic specifically covered in the game.
I could see a European viewpoint being substantially different as my understanding(which admittedly is very little) was that slavery was never the same type of issue in Europe as it was here in the sense that it hasn't really split a country. It more or less was responsible for the highest loss of American life in the history of America. Well, not until Vietnam has their been such a high loss of American life, but that was fought against another country as opposed literally a country fighting itself. Even worse when you consider that America was less than 100 years old at that point.
I'm not really offended by the content. As I find the subject incredibly fascinating. My dad was big into going and participating in Civil War reenactments when I was a kid. And some of those fellas knew so much about the Civil War and treated it like the real thing when you were there. Sleeping in hot-ass canvas tents, eating hard-tac, not showering for a few days, getting destroyed by bugs, sharing real stories from actual Civil War survivors(retold obviously, not actual CW survivors). I'd love more games to explore those themes and subjects. But this just isn't the right way to go about it in my opinion. I'm not a fan of hardcore political correctness either as I think it divides more people than it helps.
But for example, when you game-ify the stuffing of slaves into a ship, you kinda reduce the terribleness of the whole thing, even if there is a little blurb before hand on how awful it was.
And you did not come across as offensive at all.
I'm not mad the game exists, I'm just annoyed that it's so terribly done.
My opinion may or may not align with yours. And that's okay.
My opinion may or may not align with yours. And that's okay.
No, I'd say turning this terrible process into a game exemplifies the terribleness of the whole thing. Hell, the reason people seem to be offended is because it's such a blasé depiction of the slave trade. How dare they simplify the transportation of these people as just playing Tetris like they're some kind of object! Talk about getting the point of how awful the slave trade was across using gameplay.
Edit: That said, man, I wish the game looked just a little bit better visually. These soulless stares are creeping me out more than anything.
Correct, but there is also zero positive reinforcement for doing "well". Basically any modern game ties measured performance ("score") to rewards / punishments that motivate the player. Even in the earliest games where there was nothing but a score, the developers added 1) a highscore board in order to stir up competition and/or 2) created a backstory (as simple as it might have been) as context and push for the player to succeed. Neither is done in this game, and if there were people to compete for this score, they would obviously be taking the game out of context. I do agree though that showing the number (and the word score, evoking a certain expectation) is somewhat controversial - I am very sure the developers have discussed this very point thoroughly, and apparently came to the conclusion that this number is needed to provide for some basic motivation of participating in this section.
Why do history movies / documentations often use a personal, almost first person approach as narration means? Because it touches the viewer at a personal, emotional level, thus reaching to the audience more directly. I (shamefully) have to admit that I've forgotten a lot of facts we'd learned in history class, but I am positive I would not ever forget learning about such horrible practises such as packing people together like commodities, if I had actually played them.
It is impossible to avoid potentially insulting some people when you make a clear statement about human history. This is no free pass for hate speech / intolerance / racism or any such thing, but a call for giving the correct context for your message. I guess the discussion point remains whether the context is presented apropriately in this game.
I honestly hope they do make such a game, of course with the apropriate dedication and respect to the topic.
Or might it be the general audience that hasn't grown up enough yet? There are already lots of games that treat extremely sensitive topics, and I think many are doing a great job at it, some even have changed my view on life and humanity. I will not accept the excuse that "the medium is not mature enough" for not pushing the boundaries of what games can or can't do. Games have been a central part of human culture since thousands of years, and the mere act of play (which evolves over the years to playing games once rules and objectives are introduced) is vital to the development of children. How else can you learn about reality, try out different actions and their outcomes without fearing severe consequences?
BennyBlanco
aka IMurRIVAL69
"I don't like it so it should cease to exist"
Gucci Messiah
Banned
Yeah crazy how people don't like casual racism
Well the slave trade was directly influenced by the American society of the time and is a shameful part of American History's culture. It's compounded by the fact that their are some major racial issues all over the country from the East to the West. I guess you could say that maybe American's possibly weren't the target audience, but that'd be a stretch as American's were directly responsible for propagating slavery, and fought tooth and nail to keep Slavery and State rights independent from half the country and I'd like to think they probably want to sell to the huge audience of parents that would want their children to learn about the Civil War. Especially considering that that is the topic specifically covered in the game.
I could see a European viewpoint being substantially different as my understanding(which admittedly is very little) was that slavery was never the same type of issue in Europe as it was here in the sense that it hasn't really split a country. It more or less was responsible for the highest loss of American life in the history of America. Well, not until Vietnam has their been such a high loss of American life, but that was fought against another country as opposed literally a country fighting itself. Even worse when you consider that America was less than 100 years old at that point.
I'm not really offended by the content. As I find the subject incredibly fascinating. My dad was big into going and participating in Civil War reenactments when I was a kid. And some of those fellas knew so much about the Civil War and treated it like the real thing when you were there. Sleeping in hot-ass canvas tents, eating hard-tac, not showering for a few days, getting destroyed by bugs, sharing real stories from actual Civil War survivors(retold obviously, not actual CW survivors). I'd love more games to explore those themes and subjects. But this just isn't the right way to go about it in my opinion. I'm not a fan of hardcore political correctness either as I think it divides more people than it helps.
But for example, when you game-ify the stuffing of slaves into a ship, you kinda reduce the terribleness of the whole thing, even if there is a little blurb before hand on how awful it was.
And you did not come across as offensive at all.
I'm not mad the game exists, I'm just annoyed that it's so terribly done.
My opinion may or may not align with yours. And that's okay.
Thank you for that post, what an insightful read! In Switzerland (and as far as I know, most countries in Europe) the tradition of historical reenactments also exists, but only on a much smaller scale (I personally don't know anyone that has ever participated in such an event tbh). I think I now understand a little better why it seems to be so popular in the U.S. In a way, it is the "real deal" (like you write, sleeping in tents and actually reliving the hardnesses people experienced at the time), so this experience of history affects you on a completely different level than just reading about it in a history book for example.
You could almost say that the reenactments are somewhat similar to serious games (like the one we are discussing), in that you assume the role of a (fictional or non-fictional) person participating in the actual events that are presented. Of course there are lots of differences in the means used (reallife roleplay vs. on screen play), but the rules themselves seem to be somewhat similar: you have to stay within given role and follow the events as far as they have been documented, thus "recreating" (or rather retelling) history.
Perhaps I'm taking the analogy too far, and it's certainly OK to disagree on whether this game's quality meets the standards one expects for a serious topic or not. From what I have seen so far, I personally think the game is well done and uses its mechanics very cleverly in order to bring the events of the past and horrible human acts closer to our understanding. But I can see now that there are many people that don't need / want such an "in your face" approach like the Slave Tetris, as there are other forms of comemorating and reliving / retelling history which might be more apropriate for a certain person's historical and cultural background. (edit: Of course it might also simply be the graphical style, choice of words or characters / music / general tone etc. or simply its quality, but I think there is something deeper behind the strong negative reaction the game evokes from many people).
I quote from here
Please help me understand how this applies here.
Edit: In my understanding, this game depicts actual racism in a very direct (albeit somewhat "softened" representation due to the young target audience) way without enforcing / perpetuating / condoning stereotypes or prejudices at all. But I may very well be mistaken.
Taking the masterrace meme to the next level.
Possibly, but I do think that there is a large audience of people who play video games who can appreciate films like Schindlers List, The Pianist, The Mission and books that tread the same steps. I do think that trying to tackle such historic atrocities is somewhat easier as a passive experience where a director/author can steer it's audience. Gameifying such events would be incredibly difficult to pull off correctly and in the right tone, and any AAA Dev/Publisher probably wouldn't touch such a sensitive issue with a bargepole at this moment in time. Granted I'm sure there are some smaller indie devs out there who would like the challenge; and a challenge it would be, to do the subject material justice and find an audience.
Krappadizzle
Member
You are right, I completely agree and take back my claim that the audience might perhaps not be mature enough. It is us game developers that need to improve and learn how to tackle such complex topics in a beneficial way. Very good point about it being somewhat easier to handle things in a more passive way - if we look at how much controversy there has been about violent video games in the last years (somewhat similar to how books, radio and tv have been viewed critically many years ago), it becomes clear that much has to be proven by the creators before the general community can safely assume that games are a useful medium to help us understand human history better.
Edit: Amen indeed
its why we still exterminate them and feed them to our cats to this day.
I notice how it reinforces at every turn "these black people did it to themselves."
well, black people and talking mice.
What. The fuck. A kids game about slavery? Outraged.
Now, I'm not going to play it and find out if a child would get an idea of the realities of slavery from this game. Could we just maybe get a few cherry-picked screenshots and some hate? I feel I could get on board the hate wagon with minimal effort if someone else just started.... Ah, my bad. Shoulda read the thread.
Now, I'm not going to play it and find out if a child would get an idea of the realities of slavery from this game. Could we just maybe get a few cherry-picked screenshots and some hate? I feel I could get on board the hate wagon with minimal effort if someone else just started.... Ah, my bad. Shoulda read the thread.
Let me get a few quotes from wikipedia:
Could you please explain to me how exactly this game "enforces at every turn" that black people did this to themselves?
I'm not going to spend a lot of time on this reply. For centuries, people have sought to make Africans as complicit as European expansionists in the rise of the global slave trade and modern slave empires. So I'm going to find all these wikipedia paragraphs and probably their sources to be more than just a little suspect.
But the fact that they direct this to kids, and soften the imagery with cartoon animals and you get to play a little black boy to experience this little fictional world, I find it to be more than just a little morbid. especially if those hypothetical children could come away accepting this idea of slavery as a practicality of the time and just another part of history.