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[Marty Chinn]

As we have no idea of what the price or market strategy is for this, I don't see how you can come up with a conclusion that states Sony business people lack "basic economics".

Where did I say Sony's business people lack basic economics? I've never said or implied that. You asked why would it sell quicker and I told you how basic economics work. If their main goal was a 4K UHD Blu Ray player and getting that adopted, there are quicker means to do so.

I have stated why Neo is a good idea for those that want it, a Neo mode might allow me to play Witcher 3 at 60 FPS. Why do you want to deny me playing this game at 60 FPS on console if I wish to pay up ? Nobody will ever be able to answer this one,

I don't want to deny you games at 60 FPS. Hell I would like them myself. However, I don't want them at the expense of hurting the console market or a significant negative impact on game development. That's not saying this new business model will definitely be all bad, but to say there isn't any risk involved with it is naive.

 

[icespide]

people think they're getting witcher 3 at 60fps with Neo? Dream on. I feel like people really need to temper their expectations of these Neo modes especially for 60fps stuff

 

[LelouchZero]

It also doesn't include a CPU, motherboard, operating system, controller- and well- everything else.

Not if you already have PC which is a solid foundation for a GPU upgrade, even a PC built or purchased 3+ years ago will be fine providing it's a solid setup.
The only thing you'll add is a new GPU. It's not like you can upgrade your PlayStation 4 into a PS4 Neo with one change, you have to buy a new console.

But if it's going to be a new purchase in it's entirety then yes, you're right.

 

[Hcoregamer00]

people think they're getting witcher 3 at 60fps with Neo? Dream on

Maybe they will have an upgrade patch for a free or a reasonable price........

Okay, I said it without hysterically laughing.

 

[Prisoner KSC2-303]

One thing I'd be interested in is whether the iterative model may stand in the way of control pad evolution. I liked that pads would change alongside generational leaps. If, for example, there's a certain amount of both backwards and forwards compatibility designed in this approach, then would that indicate that controllers are now almost finalised?

Once phones hit the plateau of touch screens, iteration became simpler.

 

[icespide]

Maybe they will have an upgrade patch for a free or a reasonable price........

Okay, I said it without hysterically laughing.

I don't even mean that I just mean from a performance perspective

 

[Fafalada]

How would it not be cheaper? The Neo is going to include an upgraded CPU and GPU which clearly has to add more cost than not.

Moving to the new node means an entirely new part this time(no "free" process shrink) even if they stick with current PS4 APU. Assuming the power envelope of new APU is comparable to current machine, they are getting the upgrade "for free".

 

[DeepEnigma]

What is with this MSFT is going to drop the X1, and start a new gen talk?

Lol, no, they are going to continue to sell the X1 now Win10 box along side their new one, in one large ecosystem in the same way Sony will.

Man, lol. These 'hopes and dreams' narratives are starting to pop into here.

Otherwise they would not waste time on a slim, or other mini boxes of the like.

people think they're getting witcher 3 at 60fps with Neo? Dream on. I feel like people really need to temper their expectations of these Neo modes especially for 60fps stuff

Witcher 3 is also not the main benchmark measure for a systems power either. It is not the most optimized game engine around.

You are more than likely not meaning that, but there are those who act like it is a holy grail of tech.

 

[Kyoufu]

No it wouldn't involve increasing the price. We're already talking about lowering the price of the standard model to fit in the Neo. There's no reason adding in simply the UHD blu ray capabilities would have to increase the current price.

The whole point is their primary goal is not 4K UHD Blu Ray adoption rate. You don't need the increased CPU and GPU to do so. It may be one goal, but they clearly have something bigger in mind than just UHD Blu Ray.

Andrew House says it'll cost more than $350. So yes, it'd be more expensive. I'm not sure why you think it wouldn't be?

They obviously want to attract more than just 4K adopters when people are content with 1080p. Increased specs benefits 1080p consumers as well as PSVR owners but 4K adopters are going to be their main demographic even if they don't intend on that being the case, it'll be a natural occurrence.

 

[icespide]

One thing I'd be interested in is whether the iterative model may stand in the way of control pad evolution. I liked that pads would change alongside generational leaps. If, for example, there's a certain amount of both backwards and forwards compatibility designed in this approach, then would that indicate that controllers are now almost finalised?

Once phones hit the plateau of touch screens, iteration became simpler.

this is a good point I haven't thought of. when do we get new controllers?

 

[Panajev2001a]

I mean, everyone was complaining about how insufferably long last gen was, lasting between 6-8 years (Compared to 4 - 6 years with previous generations). I do think we'll enter a shorter gen cycle though, with iterative consoles every 42 months or so. That's still not as quick of a turn around as cell phones, which makes sense; gaming consoles aren't as much of a necessity as phones. But I think this is good for gaming at least in terms of raw power; this means that consoles going forward won't be such a millstone around the necks of PC development.

Consoles are not a milestone, the fact that they are fixed specs (a fixed specs hardware whose dev software and drivers get more optimised over time for only maximises the returns on time investmented in it) that PC end up outpacing is what enables quick wins on PC in terms of cranking up resolution, frame rate, and effects.

Sure last generation was a bit long (and yes people were loud and vocal, but that does not make all of their conclusions right), but one of the reasons why it lasted that long (alongside the fact that PS3 launched one year later and started catching up with MS after a so so first year) is that silicon manufacturing technology and the rate of performance improvement year after year have both been slowing down year after year.
Also, to get more and more notable results guys like DF can see in videos and we can all spot in screenshots you need an almost exponentially increasing performance jump at each bar you pass.

Consoles cannot practically grow to take the same space as a PC and any dollar you spend in more advanced cooling is a dollar you do not spend in improving the architecture or keeping the price under check. Also, this covers the limited crank the clock speed and pack more transistor approaches letting the power consumption grow, but there are practical limits to that approach. One of them being the risk of levitating the price of consoles greatly over time.

Logic says that the answer is not shorter generations and beside a hand wavy feeling of having more options, without looking at the cost of those options sometimes, the big beneficiaries seem to be the benefactors in this case...

 

[jdmonmou]

The funny thing is, they cannot bring themselves to say the truth, which is they are jealous of someone having a better console - but they cant say that as it sounds like a 12 year old child.

So we get developer concern, price concern, optimisation concern, future of console concern, every year a new console concern or a plea to how console gaming saved their existence and the console world will come to an end as we know it..

So next comes the emotion and toys out of the pram, I am done with gaming, screw Sony, I will build a PC where I can be the bottom of the pile. Think I have read enough of them now, not seen 1 sensible arguments saying why iteration is bad.

Sony has to weigh up against potentially losing customers who do spend allot of money going back to Microsoft if Sony are not offering a high end console option. The shift 360 to Ps4 was real in UK and uSA.....could easily be reversed.

I dont thing Sony will care about iterative console negativity as everybody is doing it, its just empty warbling, and PC gaming is iterative every month lol, someone will always have an advantage over you in any game on PC.

But those are valid concerns.

This thing will end up like the PSX, the Vita TV, and the PSP Go. When people buy a new console they want to see a generational leap in performance, not an iterative one. So I'm also concerned about Sony losing money and killing the momentum of the PlayStation brand it so far has done an excellent job of building up this generation.

Also, I'm fine with Sony releasing the PS5 next year if it means the tech doesn't have to be held back to keep parity with the PS4. For everyone saying they like this move because they want to see tech improvements in the console space sooner...the PS NEO will probably just extend the PS4 platform and it'll take longer for us to see those generational leaps in graphics in the console space.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Andrew House says it'll cost more than $350. So yes, it'd be more expensive. I'm not sure why you think it wouldn't be?

They obviously want to attract more than just 4K adopters when people are content with 1080p. Increased specs benefits 1080p consumers as well as PSVR owners but 4K adopters are going to be their main demographic even if they don't intend on that being the case, it'll be a natural occurrence.

The Neo in it's current form will cost more than $350. I'm saying if you didn't include the huge performance upgrade and kept the PS4 hardware the same with just UHD Blu Ray capabilities, it would not be more expensive. Part of the price increase is related to the increased performance which isn't needed for UHD Blu Ray.

 

[geordiemp]

Maybe they will have an upgrade patch for a free or a reasonable price........

Okay, I said it without hysterically laughing.

Why is it funny, GPU is strong enough for sure 4 +TF,...

CPU is 1.6 to 2.1, if a model gets zen thats + 40 % instructions per clock....and effectively an I5 so the leaks and gossip go.

Maybe IF Neo will have zen then Witcher 3 at 1080p60 is of course doable, otherwise it will be scorpio if Sony go low spec for Neo. If you think a Console with power of an effective I5 plus 970 cannot do 60 FPS gaming at 1080p, then laugh.

You may scoff, but either MS or Sony have it well within their grasp to give us a console capable of Witcher 3 at 60 FPS in 2017. Thats why Neo specs discussion and Scorpio is so hot right now, most people believe this is possible. If its not then both consoles are a waste of space.

Heck, the discission in the scopio thread is the console running Occulus, > 1080p and 90 FPS Locked ! Book mark this page, I believe you are very under estimating Polaris and Zen potential as much as I am believing in it.

Also, I'm fine with Sony releasing the PS5 next year if it means the tech doesn't have to be held back to keep parity with the PS4. For everyone saying they like this move because they want to see tech improvements in the console space sooner...the PS NEO will probably just extend the PS4 platform and it'll take longer for us to see those generational leaps in graphics in the console space.

Hey we actually agree, but expressed differently, Neo is not worth it if its not a big jump, its pointless and will die if it cannot run games at gamers expectations .

If I cant play Bloodborne at 60 FPS (Witcher 3 is just an example FFS) then whats the point., or pick any 30 FPS game you want, same argument.

And yes, they could call it Ps5 / Neo...not important to me. I dont care what its called, new tech is available and its time to use it. A small bump is pointless.

 

[DeepEnigma]

this is a good point I haven't thought of. when do we get new controllers?

I doubt it.

 

[CosmicQueso]

but to say there isn't any risk involved with it is naive.

Equally as naive as saying there is risk everywhere with it.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Equally as naive as saying there is risk everywhere with it.

What does that even mean?

 

[jeff_rigby]

Why is it funny, GPU is strong enough for sure 4 +TF,...

CPU is 1.6 to 2.1, if a model gets zen thats + 40 % instructions per clock....and effectively an I5 so the leaks and gossip go.

Maybe IF Neo will have zen then Witcher 3 at 1080p60 is of course doable, otherwise it will be scorpio if Sony go low spec for Neo.

You may scoff, but either MS or Sony have it well within their grasp to give us a console capable of Witcher 3 at 60 FPS in 2017. Thats why Neo specs discussion and Scorpio is so hot right now, most people believe this is possible.

Heck, the discission in the scopio thread is the console running Occulus, > 1080p and 90 FPS Locked !

Book mark this page

My understanding is Zen has a 40% IPC greater than the latest Excavator which has a IPC 150% greater than Bulldozer or the first Excavator whatever. 6 Zen CPUs are equal to 4 of the fastest Intel consumer CPUs and much much cheaper. Currently AMD is using Excavator in Carrizio and Puma+ in Carrizio-L.

 

[Kyoufu]

The Neo in it's current form will cost more than $350. I'm saying if you didn't include the huge performance upgrade and kept the PS4 hardware the same with just UHD Blu Ray capabilities, it would not be more expensive. Part of the price increase is related to the increased performance which isn't needed for UHD Blu Ray.

Perhaps they want to extend 4K playback to some (not all) games as well?

Another thing to think about is that the standard PS4 model sells very well as it is and I imagine profits must be growing with it on sale. Adding UHD Blu Ray drives would cut their profitability by a large margin so giving consumers a choice instead would be best for business.

 

[Clear]

But those are valid concerns.

Ummm. No.

Developer concerns is total hogwash, if you are prepared to support PC and its myriad variations doing a second console SKU is trivial.

Price concern is irrelevant considering that this isn't a replacement for PS4.

Optimization concern is silly considering that high-end PC already exists, and the 60m + install base for PS4+Xbone is still going to require servicing.

"Future of consoles" is just ridiculous because its risk is predicated on the points rebutted above.

 

[Hcoregamer00]

Why is it funny, GPU is strong enough for sure 4 +TF,...

CPU is 1.6 to 2.1, if a model gets zen thats + 40 % instructions per clock....and effectively an I5 so the leaks and gossip go.

Maybe IF Neo will have zen then Witcher 3 at 1080p60 is of course doable, otherwise it will be scorpio if Sony go low spec for Neo.

You may scoff, but either MS or Sony have it well within their grasp to give us a console capable of Witcher 3 at 60 FPS in 2017. Thats why Neo specs discussion and Scorpio is so hot right now, most people believe this is possible.

Heck, the discission in the scopio thread is the console running Occulus, > 1080p and 90 FPS Locked !

Book mark this page, I believe you are very under estimating Polaris and Zen potential.

You do realize that unless it gets patched it or by design, the game won't perform better.

I was merely joking about how everything has become so monetized that a simple game optimization patch for future consoles won't be part of the already given purchase price.

The consoles are capable of it, sure, if you have a current copy will you get it optimized for the new spec'd consoles without having paying a premium over what you paid already? Probably not.

 

[Marty Chinn]

Perhaps they want to extend 4K playback to some (not all) games as well?

Another thing to think about is that the standard PS4 model sells very well as it is and I imagine profits must be growing with it on sale. Adding UHD Blu Ray drives would cut their profitability by a large margin so giving consumers a choice instead would be best for business.

That's fine. I'm just saying if their primary goal was the adoption rate of 4K TVs and 4K UHD Blu Ray, there are cheaper ways of them doing it. They have a wider goal beyond simply 4K UHD Blu Ray that they are trying to do here which is all I was pointing out.

Ummm. No.

Developer concerns is total hogwash, if you are prepared to support PC and its myriad variations doing a second console SKU is trivial.

And yet Andrew House said they have to wait for game support before they are willing to unveil it. If it was so trivial, they wouldn't need to be waiting for games to show off what the Neo can do. So how about not hogwash and not trivial?

 

[CosmicQueso]

What does that even mean?

It means that constantly pointing out there is risk is as pointless as handwaving all risk away.

This isn't the end of the world for consoles. If the price/benefit ratio is good enough, the Neo will be a success and people will be happy. If it isn't, they won't buy it and the whole thing will go away and everything will go right back to the cyclical model.

Sure, there's risk with it. But, apparently, Sony and MS think the risk of doing this is worth it, through some combination of trying to get existing owners to upgrade, to stay competitive with the other, and to entice new consumers in.

The market is more competitive than ever. Consoles are fighting not only with other consoles, but other devices for gaming and entertainment. Doing nothing until 2019 or 2020 doesn't seem to be an attractive option for the first parties. So, wait and see what this thing actually is, and how much they're pricing it at.

That's fine. I'm just saying if their primary goal was the adoption rate of 4K TVs and 4K UHD Blu Ray, there are cheaper ways of them doing it. They have a wider goal beyond simply 4K UHD Blu Ray that they are trying to do here which is all I was pointing out.

For that goal, they have dedicated players. The tie into gaming enhances adoption appeal. Don't be obtuse.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Ummm. No.

Developer concerns is total hogwash, if you are prepared to support PC and its myriad variations doing a second console SKU is trivial.

Price concern is irrelevant considering that this isn't a replacement for PS4.

Optimization concern is silly considering that high-end PC already exists, and the 60m + install base for PS4+Xbone is still going to require servicing.

"Future of consoles" is just ridiculous because its risk is predicated on the points rebutted above.

And SneakersOS, a dev, made mention last night that they exceeded his expectations with how they are handling the compiler optimization/transition for Neo and Base PS4. Said it was a brilliant method or the like.

 

[Marty Chinn]

It means that constantly pointing out there is risk is as pointless as handwaving all risk away.

This isn't the end of the world for consoles. If the price/benefit ratio is good enough, the Neo will be a success and people will be happy. If it isn't, they won't buy it and the whole thing will go away and everything will go right back to the cyclical model.

Sure, there's risk with it. But, apparently, Sony and MS think the risk of doing this is worth it, through some combination of trying to get existing owners to upgrade, to stay competitive with the other, and to entice new consumers in.

The market is more competitive than ever. Consoles are fighting not only with other consoles, but other devices for gaming and entertainment. Doing nothing until 2019 or 2020 doesn't seem to be an attractive option for the first parties. So, wait and see what this thing actually is, and how much they're pricing it at.

Pointing out risk is at least a valid point and concern and can be a reasonable discussion. Ignoring risk or burying your head in the sand like it doesn't exist is worse. They're not equal at all. One has merit, the other one doesn't.

For that goal, they have dedicated players. The tie into gaming enhances adoption appeal. Don't be obtuse.

The dedicated players will always be more expensive due to their need for profit margins and lower quantity units manufactured and sold. The game console has always been a great trojan horse to pack that functionality in since a console is already utilizing hardware that can be used for the same purpose. So again if UHD blu ray is their goal, there are cheaper ways to do it through the PS4. Their goal is wider than UHD Blu Ray. I'm not the one being obtuse.

 

[geordiemp]

My understanding is Zen has a 40% IPC greater than the latest Excavator which has a IPC 150% greater than Bulldozer or the first Excavator whatever. 6 Zen CPUs are equal to 4 of the fastest Intel consumer CPUs and much much cheaper. Currently AMD is using Excavator in Carrizio and Puma+ in Carrizio-L.

Jeff appears. Why do you think Sony will go Excavator other than Zen ? Both require designing into the APU, excavator makes no sense to me.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

But those are valid concerns.

This thing will end up like the PSX, the Vita TV, and the PSP Go. When people buy a new console they want to see a generational leap in performance, not an iterative one. So I'm also concerned about Sony losing money and killing the momentum of the PlayStation brand it so far has done an excellent job of building up this generation.

Also, I'm fine with Sony releasing the PS5 next year if it means the tech doesn't have to be held back to keep parity with the PS4. For everyone saying they like this move because they want to see tech improvements in the console space sooner...the PS NEO will probably just extend the PS4 platform and it'll take longer for us to see those generational leaps in graphics in the console space.

Sony said he R&D cost are already accounted for and the Neo will be sold for a profit. So your concern about it hurting Sony financially can be put to rest.

 

[geordiemp]

And SneakersOS, a dev, made mention last night that they exceeded his expectations with how they are handling the compiler optimization/transition for Neo and Base PS4. Said it was a brilliant method or the like.

Have you got a link - would like to read. Did he give any snippets away ?

 

[DeepEnigma]

And yet Andrew House said they have to wait for game support before they are willing to unveil it. If it was so trivial, they wouldn't need to be waiting for games to show off what the Neo can do. So how about not hogwash and not trivial?

I expect better out of you. This is some silly extreme sided rhetoric. Let's say it takes a dev 4-5 months for a boosted Neo mode (for already released games, I am sure less during new game developemt) early on as tools mature, how long does a dev need for a PC port from a console game? I bet longer than 4-5 months on average.

Anyways, search SneakersOS posts last night, who has been briefed and possibly hands on with it. Seems very pleased with their SDK toolset, even exceeded his expectations.

This whole, "nah nah House said they wanted more games to display so it must be hard since none are ready in a month" narrative is unsubstantiated and has no evidence.

ProTip... Most of the games they are going to showcase with this, have yet to even be shown full stop on even the base consoles either.

 

[20cent]

Wow I'm soo shocked

It's not like all the rumors said it wouldn't be shown at the E3............................

 

[StrongBlackVine]

I expect better out of you. This is some silly extreme sided rhetoric. Let's say it takes a dev 4-5 months for a boosted Neo mode early on as tools mature, how long does a dev need for a PC port from a console game? I bet longer than 4-5 months on average.

Anyways, search SneakersOS posts last night, who has been briefed and possibly hands on with it. Seems very pleased with their SDK toolset, even exceeded his expectations.

This whole, "nah nah House said they wanted more games to display so it must be hard since none are ready in a month" narrative is unsubstantiated and has no evidence.

ProTip... Most of the games they are going to showcase with this, have yet to even be shown full stop on even the base consoles either.

Plus games are not required to have a Neo mode until September so why would games for showcasing be ready now?

 

[DeepEnigma]

Plus games are not required to have a Neo mode until September so why would games for showcasing be ready now?

Exactly.

 

[Bsigg12]

Plus games are not required to have a Neo mode until September so why would games for showcasing be ready now?

Most of the games that are going to be shown at E3 won't be out until after they are required to have that mode?

 

[THE:MILKMAN]

Have you got a link - would like to read. Did he give any snippets away ?

Found it! http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1231787&highlight=neo

Very interesting and it reads like Sony/AMD have spent a good deal of time making it as easy and painless for devs as possible.

Now if only SneakersSO could confirm Jaguar or something else!

 

[bzzt]

But those are valid concerns.

This thing will end up like the PSX, the Vita TV, and the PSP Go. When people buy a new console they want to see a generational leap in performance, not an iterative one. So I'm also concerned about Sony losing money and killing the momentum of the PlayStation brand it so far has done an excellent job of building up this generation.

Also, I'm fine with Sony releasing the PS5 next year if it means the tech doesn't have to be held back to keep parity with the PS4. For everyone saying they like this move because they want to see tech improvements in the console space sooner...the PS NEO will probably just extend the PS4 platform and it'll take longer for us to see those generational leaps in graphics in the console space.

Come off it, how is that even a fair comparison? VitaTV and PSP Go had more problems than not having a generational leap in power. The OG vita was a generational leap in power to the PSP, didn't sell shit, so why would the vita TV fare better? The PSP Go was digital only. How can people take you seriously with examples like that. If people don't buy machines unless there is a generational leap in power, then where do all the slim console revisions go? The GBA SP is certainly not a generational leap above the GBA, yet sold more than the normal GBA. The various iterations of the NDS added up to be one of the most popular consoles ever made. If people weren't buying the slims, Sony wouldn't have made slim revisions after the PSOne failed.

 

[DeepEnigma]

Most of the games that are going to be shown at E3 won't be out until after they are required to have that mode?

And the dev kits, possibly not even final spec from some new leaks, just went out a little over two months ago if that.

Devs are focusing on getting their shit together for E3 enough as it is, they are not to be fucked with Neo mode so soon for trade show display, when Sony is giving them time due to their announcement plans for this later on.

Found it! http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1231787&highlight=neo

Very interesting and it reads like Sony/AMD have spent a good deal of time making it as easy and painless for devs as possible.

Now if only SneakersSO could confirm Jaguar or something else!

Thank you. Was on my iPad, and now I know why I could not find in search, it is SO, not OS, lol.

 

[LelouchZero]

Why is it funny, GPU is strong enough for sure 4 +TF,...

CPU is 1.6 to 2.1, if a model gets zen thats + 40 % instructions per clock....and effectively an I5 so the leaks and gossip go.

Maybe IF Neo will have zen then Witcher 3 at 1080p60 is of course doable, otherwise it will be scorpio if Sony go low spec for Neo.

You may scoff, but either MS or Sony have it well within their grasp to give us a console capable of Witcher 3 at 60 FPS in 2017. Thats why Neo specs discussion and Scorpio is so hot right now, most people believe this is possible.

Heck, the discission in the scopio thread is the console running Occulus, > 1080p and 90 FPS Locked !

Book mark this page, I believe you are very under estimating Polaris and Zen potential.

It will be very interesting to see the specs, I can't wait!

If the GPU is around 4-4.1 teraflops then we're looking at GPU that's over 2x more powerful than the PlayStation 4's GPU and it could be somewhere around the theoretical performance of the 7970 GHz.
However, we're not sure about the performance per clock improvements of Polaris over GCN so it could be even higher than the 7970's performance.

We found out how affordable the new Polaris GPU technology is when AMD announced the RX 480 at $200 which is allegedly going to offer GTX 970 performance and above, so I can totally see a Polaris GPU with a lower clock-speed and/or core count being affordable and feasible to put into a console.

If they go with Zen then the CPU is going to be significantly faster than the current PlayStation 4's CPU, but the pricing of this new CPU technology is still an unknown at the moment, so it could even be out of the reach of a sub $500 console.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

Most of the games that are going to be shown at E3 won't be out until after they are required to have that mode?

Yeah that's a given. I would say The Last Guardian(think August for this), Deus Ex Mankind Divided and No Man's would be only major games released before that.

 

[jdmonmou]

Sony said he R&D cost are already accounted for and the Neo will be sold for a profit. So your concern about it hurting Sony financially can be put to rest.

But that's assuming they sell every Neo that is manufactured. If they manufacture more than is actually sold it will be a loss...not to mention money for marketing.

 

[Marty Chinn]

I expect better out of you. This is some silly extreme sided rhetoric. Let's say it takes a dev 4-5 months for a boosted Neo mode (for already released games, I am sure less during new game developemt) early on as tools mature, how long does a dev need for a PC port from a console game? I bet longer than 4-5 months on average.

Anyways, search SneakersOS posts last night, who has been briefed and possibly hands on with it. Seems very pleased with their SDK toolset, even exceeded his expectations.

This whole, "nah nah House said they wanted more games to display so it must be hard since none are ready in a month" narrative is unsubstantiated and has no evidence.

ProTip... Most of the games they are going to showcase with this, have yet to even be shown full stop on even the base consoles either.

You need to get on the same page with your stance. 4 to 5 months of dev time for an existing game is expensive. How long do you think it takes for a game in development? People were insisting you just toggle a few things and you're done and that it would be trivial since everything is already done anyway. If that's the case, any developer should be able to spend a week and have something ready to go. How long do you think it takes? How much do you think that costs for that duration? If it was so trivial to do, there's no reason why developers wouldn't be able to pull it out on a whim especially to showcase at an unveiling that Sony is planning. Most of the games that will be seen at E3 won't ship until after the requirement deadline. Many of them are holiday titles this year. So which is it? It's trivial and can be pulled off quickly and easily, or it's not trivial and developers will have to put some effort into it? Not port from PS3 to PS4 effort, but something more than simply configuring an ini file or toggling a couple settings which was the stance many people were taking. Andrew House saying they want to give developers time to be able to showcase what the Neo can do certainly implies something a bit more than a trivial config file.

 

[mrklaw]

It will be very interesting to see the specs, I can't wait!

If the GPU is around 4-4.1 teraflops then we're looking at GPU that's over 2x more powerful than the PlayStation 4's GPU and it could be somewhere around the theoretical performance of the 7970 GHz.
However, we're not sure about the performance per clock improvements of Polaris over GCN so it could be even higher than the 7970's performance.

We found out how affordable the new Polaris GPU technology is when AMD announced the RX 480 at $200 which is allegedly going to offer GTX 970 performance and above, so I can totally see a Polaris GPU with a lower clock-speed and/or core count being affordable and feasible to put into a console.

If they go with Zen then the CPU is going to be significantly faster than the current PlayStation 4's CPU, but the pricing of this new CPU technology is still an unknown at the moment, so it could even be out of the reach of a sub $500 console.

The price of the Zen CPU is how much it costs AMD to engineer it into an APU (something I'm sure they were already planning anyway), and how much they'd license it to Sony/MS for. The retail price they'd charge for standalone Zen CPUs doesn't matter.

the fact that AMD need a success with Zen against core i could mean AMD being willing to license it into consoles cheaply to get some brand awareness going.

 

[StrongBlackVine]

But that's assuming they sell every Neo that is manufactured. If they manufacture more than is actually sold it will be a loss...not to mention money for marketing.

There is risk in any product release. I think Sony knows this not going to fly off the shelves right away just like they know PSVR is going to be niche product. If you think it is going bomb you will likely be joyfully disappointed.

 

[DeepEnigma]

You need to get on the same page with your stance. 4 to 5 months of dev time for an existing game is expensive. How long do you think it takes for a game in development? People were insisting you just toggle a few things and you're done and that it would be trivial since everything is already done anyway. If that's the case, any developer should be able to spend a week and have something ready to go. How long do you think it takes? How much do you think that costs for that duration? If it was so trivial to do, there's no reason why developers wouldn't be able to pull it out on a whim especially to showcase at an unveiling that Sony is planning. Most of the games that will be seen at E3 won't ship until after the requirement deadline. Many of them are holiday titles this year. So which is it? It's trivial and can be pulled off quickly and easily, or it's not trivial and developers will have to put some effort into it? Not port from PS3 to PS4 effort, but something more than simply configuring an ini file or toggling a couple settings which was the stance many people were taking. Andrew House saying they want to give developers time to be able to showcase what the Neo can do certainly implies something a bit more than a trivial config file.

I am just going to leave this right here.

Found it! http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1231787&highlight=neo

Very interesting and it reads like Sony/AMD have spent a good deal of time making it as easy and painless for devs as possible.

Now if only SneakersSO could confirm Jaguar or something else!

.

If the GPU remains at the rumoured 911mhz this should be above 970gtx perf.

I would be happy with that, but I have a gut feeling that speed will change. Same with the RAM bandwidth.

 

[blastprocessor]

If the GPU remains at the rumoured 911mhz this should be above 970gtx perf.

 

[Dust-by-Monday]

I still don't like it.

I feel like devs will use the Neo to run unoptimized code and then give a giant "screw you" to original PS4 owners.

Don't like the performance? Just upgrade to the Neo!

That's unacceptable to me.

I also wonder if they'll have code that is specific to the Neo, like an unlocked framerate vs locking it on the vanilla PS4. I don't want to have to put up with an unlocked framerate on my vanilla PS4 just because of the Neo.

I just feel like devs aren't going to make the game as good as it can be on the regular PS4 because if the Neo exists, they won't care as much about the regular PS4 and just do a half-assed job on it.

 

[Marty Chinn]

I am just going to leave this right here.

That doesn't really say anything quantifiable. Of course making two profiles is easier than developing for PC. Easier doesn't say anything without any perspective. 5 kids is easier to take care of than 6 kids. See how meaningless that is without quantifying the scope and what's involved to begin with?

 

[DeepEnigma]

That doesn't really say anything quantifiable. Of course making two profiles is easier than developing for PC. Easier doesn't say anything without any perspective. 5 kids is easier to take care of than 6 kids. See how meaningless that is without quantifying the scope and what's involved to begin with?

It carries FAR more wait than your glass half empty musings.

 

[geordiemp]

Found it! http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1231787&highlight=neo

Very interesting and it reads like Sony/AMD have spent a good deal of time making it as easy and painless for devs as possible.

Now if only SneakersSO could confirm Jaguar or something else!

Thanks, I can imagine both Sony and MS being very slick with iterative consoles. He didnt say much else though lol

It carries FAR more wait than your glass half empty musings.

LOL

 

[CosmicQueso]

Marty, as a developer, have you still not had any communication with Sony on this yet? If anyone has the opportunity to go find out what exactly is entailed and share at least guidance, one would assume a dev could.

4 to 5 months of dev time for an existing game is expensive. How long do you think it takes for a game in development?

For a AAA game, the incremental dev cost is in the low 7 figures, and yeah, somewhere between 5-9 months to implement, depending on the base it's being enhanced from.

People were insisting you just toggle a few things and you're done and that it would be trivial since everything is already done anyway.

Those people are wrong, and people that think that way either need to educated so they are better informed, or ignored if they refuse help.

Andrew House saying they want to give developers time to be able to showcase what the Neo can do certainly implies something a bit more than a trivial config file.

Of course it is. But who are you even arguing with on this point?

 

[Marty Chinn]

It carries FAR more wait than your glass half empty musings.

I could have told you the same thing and it still wouldn't change the fact that it's not simply configuring an ini file and toggling settings and you're done. How can you begin to claim it's trivial in man hours, and cost, but not actually have any idea of what is involved?

Marty, as a developer, have you still not had any communication with Sony on this yet? If anyone has the opportunity to go find out what exactly is entailed and share at least guidance, one would assume a dev could.

I have, and I have to be very careful when I discuss theses topics now in order to not violate NDA.

For a AAA game, the incremental dev cost is in the low 7 figures, and yeah, somewhere between 5-9 months to implement, depending on the base it's being enhanced from.

That is a non-trivial increase in work, money, man hours, and resources that have now been added to the game development cycle. That's all I've been trying to get across.