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[CountZeroInt]

Sony may not have invented 3D, but they did go to great lengths to try and kill 2D. That's gotta count for something, right?

And they've kept it up for two generations straight. And in all that time it's never been stolen.

This has been confirmed 100s of times by 100 sources and people still deny it, where there's smoke there's fire, or is this overblown by us bitter ex-Sega hardware fans who have 4MB Saturn RAM cartridges and copies of arcade-perfect Darkstalkers in our closets?

There is a lot of hard evidence against Sony in this case. It's been one of the most hotly contested items for the past 5 years.

Sony definitely has had a tough approval process and it's even worse for PS3 now that they are backed into a corner. This is for the rest of the world besides Japan (which gets a blanket approval for things like dating sims, RPGs, and Simple 1000yen games). But even Japan has reportedly had some instances of trouble with 2D games:

Mega Man creators wanted to release 2D mega man on PSX and Sony killed it multiple times. I can't find a link to this but I found several other instances of trouble:

Go ahead, Google it. "sony 2d games"

journals.aol.com/tcapmaster/arantdepository/entries/275
"According to IGN's sources, both games were showed to Sony Computer Entertainment America last summer, but Sony turned them down, responding that neither game showed off the PS2's technical strengths well and that Sony might look at them at a later date. Since sales of Viewtiful Joe were respectable for GameCube, it's possible SCEA changed its mind and is indeed considering bringing the cool 2D action game to PS2."

www.playnow.com.au/cgi-bin/ultimatebb.cgi?ubb=get_topic;f=3;t=010136
"SNK’s US offering, headed up by the infamous Ben Herman, has had some difficulties in its attempts to get games already on open sale in Japan accepted as stand-alone PlayStation 2 releases. “Sony just isn’t interested in 2D games anymore – whatever it might be,” exclaimed Koyama-san. “And yet many games, as long as they are in 3D, trickle through all the time. It’s a crazy situation and we don’t believe it reflects the needs of game consumers.""

http://www.monroeworld.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4697
"Metal Slug 3 will not be comming out on the PS2 in USA! and the reason for this is because that SONY of USA have blocked it bacuse it was 2d and nobody likes 2d!!!"

There are plenty of 2D games on PSP, but I want to see high res 2D console games from indie developers. I want to see a high res 2D adventure game on a console with beautifully painted artwork. This stuff is nearly impossible today, but if it was impossible merely because publishers get the word from Sony that it's a no-go, that is a bad thing for gamers and we should scream for more 2D if you want to see more beautifully rendered 2D. Will you pay $39 to play a 2D game these days, or do you need to be given a 3D workover to be satisfied with your purchase? Which side is correct? It is definitely WAAAAAY cheaper to produce 2D games than 3D, especially for next-gen.

 

[..pakbeka..]

I'm sure Iga doesn't say all that stuff out of his ass, scea must really be holding 2d games back

It is definitely WAAAAAY cheaper to produce 2D games than 3D, especially for next-gen.

it's not cheaper, the cost of making high-res 2d sprites is very high, especially for figthing games

 

[Rocked]

If SNK and Capcom say Sony's not interested in 2D there's no reason not to believe it. It seems to be especially true at SCEA.

 

[HyperZone<3]

-Ben Hermann (SNK dude) stated that every game they've published on the Xbox was also submitted to SCEA so they could get it on the PS2. Its hard not to notice that the Xbox has twice as many games from SNK as the PS2 does.
-Some dude from XS games admitted on their message board that they couldn't get SCEA to approve them publishing Espgaluda. North America has yet to see any shoot-em-ups from Cave.

SCEA can go fornicate themselves.

 

[neptunes]

No, SCEA doesn't like 2D

SCEJ would approve of almost anything

 

[drohne]

truth, though you have to narrow it down a little: scea hates 2d. sony's japanese arm are 2d friendly...and in fact developed quite a few 2d games on ps1.

 

[Bearillusion]

Well the other night I spent sometime playing Metal Slug 3 on my PS2.

 

[Pachinko]

I'd like to blame sony for all of these problems, I really would , it'd be easy and satisfying. The thing is though, with SNK atleast they wanted to release games meant for 11 year old hardware at full retail price for a single game- metal slug 3 for example. I can see paying ridiculous amounts for a nice fat cartridge for an actual neo geo but to have to pay 40 or even 50 USD for something like when it's pressed onto a 3 dollar media format ? No, I'm sorry but I honestly agree with sony. That is all they didn't want- a full priced retro game. Throw metal slug 1-3 on one disc and charge full price , stick 2 KOF games on one disc for full price but to ask full price for a single neo geo title on a disc format is ridonkulous.

Same deal goes for some of the stuff workings was struggling to get approved like that mystical ninja game. WD likely wanted to sell the game for 50 USD despite that it looked like an N64 game and quite possibly simply wasn't up to snuff gameplay wise either.

Plus like it or hate it, ever since PS1 there is a certain stigma associated with 2D games that the casuals that make up the largest marketshare don't like. I recall and idiot friend of mine back in oh 1997 buying Mischeif makers at my suggestion and his whole family was insulted by the game becuase they paid all this money for a new game console and expected all the games to look like mario 64- IE 3d. They actually managed to complain to nintendo and send in mischeif makers in exchange for mario kart 64, and to this day I laugh about it even though I haven't seen the guy in years.

So yeah, sony hates 2D games to the extent that they refuse to sell 2d games at full price on the playstation brand.

Now on the flipside this is an example of microsoft just wanted more support , you'll notice metal slug 3 came out stateside for xbox and it cost 50 USD or maybe 40 whatever. It didn't sell so well but it makes alot of sony haters think MS did a good thing when instead they were just letting SNK rip you off.

Nope, the only sony hating 2d thing I"ll agree with is with their japanese 1st party efforts that never made it stateside.

 

[drohne]

considering some of the rank dogshit scea does permit publishers to sell at full price, i doubt that a $40 metal slug 3 would IRRETRIEVABLY TARNISH THE PLAYSTATION BRAND. if the market doesn't want to pay $40 for metal slug 3, let the market say so -- give 2d games the same chance other games get.

 

[Archie]

considering some of the rank dogshit scea does permit publishers to sell at full price, i doubt that a $40 metal slug 3 would IRRETRIEVABLY TARNISH THE PLAYSTATION BRAND. if the market doesn't want to pay $40 for metal slug 3, let the market say so -- give 2d games the same chance other games get.

I thought SCEA allowed 2D as long as it was in a collection or something that "added value".

 

[HyperZone<3]

considering some of the rank dogshit scea does permit publishers to sell at full price, i doubt that a $40 metal slug 3 would IRRETRIEVABLY TARNISH THE PLAYSTATION BRAND. if the market doesn't want to pay $40 for metal slug 3, let the market say so -- give 2d games the same chance other games get.

QFMFT!!!

 

[jj984jj]

SCEA does. But I'm not sure about the rest. Though PSP does have a problem with most 2D games, maybe Sony didn't care enough for 2D to prevent things like ghosting. Well, it's not like I'm sure or anything, so I'll leave it at that.

 

[charlesthefirst]

I thought SCEA allowed 2D as long as it was in a collection or something that "added value".

Is that why the Namco Museums always had that stupid 3-d museum section with the shitty-ass loading times?

 

[Mashing]

But WHY does SCEA have such a loathing for 2d games? Does it just come down to development costs for the art assets?

But if that was the case WHY do they deny 3rd party 2d efforts? It's not going to cheaping the "prestige" (WTF?) or the brand of the console.

 

[SolidSnakex]

considering some of the rank dogshit scea does permit publishers to sell at full price, i doubt that a $40 metal slug 3 would IRRETRIEVABLY TARNISH THE PLAYSTATION BRAND. if the market doesn't want to pay $40 for metal slug 3, let the market say so -- give 2d games the same chance other games get.

Well they block alot of shit also, and that includes 3D games. Charlies Angels for example was GC exclusive in the US because Sony refused to let them release it here. If they truly hated 2D games you wouldn't see a single 2D game release on any of their systems. What their problem with 2D games is has more to do with how common it is for certain companies to try and release old games at full prices on their hardware. Look at SFAnthology for example. It's a 2D game that's basically 4 games in 1. How much is Capcom charging for it? 30 dollars. And yet other companies want to charge 40-50 dollars for an old port of 1 game?

 

[madara]

I remember some pretty nasty responses during E3 interviews early on that made it quite clear sony valued visuals over gameplay. Considering some of the biggest franchises you have to fight with the controls every step of way yet some solid 2D games were treated like all them were buggy trash made me realize they came with some preformed biases.

 

[Agent X]

SCEA does. But I'm not sure about the rest. Though PSP does have a problem with most 2D games, maybe Sony didn't care enough for 2D to prevent things like ghosting. Well, it's not like I'm sure or anything, so I'll leave it at that.

PSP has several really good 2D games and compilations of 2D games. It's a very capable system for 2D gaming.

 

[typhonsentra]

What "Rank Dogshit" would that be? I can't think of a PS2 equivalent to Charlie's Angels or Drake.

 

[drohne]

while it's undeniable that scea are biased against 2d games, they've blocked some really interesting 3d games too: goemon, gregory horror show, oz, shadow tower abyss. the basic problem here is that little functionaries in an office somewhere are deciding which games are good and which games aren't. they're deciding for us. and they aren't qualified. and since they obviously wouldn't be permitted to block important, expensive trash like the matrix games, they take it out on 2d games and niche japanese localizations. the upshot is that ps2 isn't as good as it could be.

 

[Thraktor]

Same deal goes for some of the stuff workings was struggling to get approved like that mystical ninja game. WD likely wanted to sell the game for 50 USD despite that it looked like an N64 game and quite possibly simply wasn't up to snuff gameplay wise either.

This is where your argument falls apart, where do you get the idea that the gameplay wasn't any good? The Goemon games have always been great fun, and to be honest, I wouldn't give two shits whether it'd look like an N64 game if it was up to the quality of the earlier games in the series. But regardless of either, it shouldn't be up to Sony to decide which games I get to buy, especially when they let a load of early 3D games that "looked like N64 games" through the gates.

And while I agree that the Metal Slug games aren't worth a $50 asking price, the reasons are completely different; they're too short. I don't care if they were designed for "11 year old hardware", if you gave me a Metal Slug game of the sort of length we expect in most home-console releases today fo $50, I'd be all over it, but for Sony to say that a game isn't worth my money simply because it's in 2D is rediculous.

 

[SolidSnakex]

This is where your argument falls apart, where do you get the idea that the gameplay wasn't any good?

All the impressions from the PS2 Goemon pointed to it be pretty damn bad. People were questioning why WD would even want it given its quality.

 

[meltpotato]

while it's undeniable that scea are biased against 2d games, they've blocked some really interesting 3d games too: goemon, gregory horror show, oz, shadow tower abyss. the basic problem here is that little functionaries in an office somewhere are deciding which games are good and which games aren't. they're deciding for us. and they aren't qualified. and since they obviously wouldn't be permitted to block important, expensive trash like the matrix games, they take it out on 2d games and niche japanese localizations. the upshot is that ps2 isn't as good as it could be.

I still haven't heard the backstory on why OZ was blocked. Sometimes SCEA policies boggle the mind.

 

[DarienA]

What "Rank Dogshit" would that be? I can't think of a PS2 equivalent to Charlie's Angels or Drake.

 

[Viewtiful Darkness]

Only SCEA is anti-2D, the other Sony branches in Europe and Japan aren't. SCEA is very strict when it comes to approving 2D games.

 

[..pakbeka..]

All the impressions from the PS2 Goemon pointed to it be pretty damn bad. People were questioning why WD would even want it given its quality.

true, but WD spent many years working on it to make it better

 

[Azure Dream]

Oz is the one that really bugs me. Konami apparently tried it repeatedly? And that one wasn't even a quality issue, it was because Sony wanted to push sales of their own Genji. (Which is a good game, what I've played, anyway, but I would've gotten it AND Oz, most likely.)

It's probably a strong reason why Namco vs. Capcom, even if it's a boring/repetitive strategy game, hasn't been milked here. (Mascot appeal alone would make for strong sales. I've heard the script's amusing as well, so with a good translation, the fans would lap it up.)

I do remember reading that Capcom had to blackmail SCEA in the PSX era to get a particular 2D game released (maybe X4?), by threatening to withhold another big-name property. It was a nasty battle. And it echoed again in the PS2 era. Yet in the end, the Sony platform still gets the titles, they don't particularly lose for all the fighting Capcom does.


Oh, another example of it: The main character in Ys Ark for the PS2 had to be changed to a polygonal figure specifically because of SCEA. It was cited in developer interviews. I think they had to change the soundtrack too, but at the last second were allowed to include the original.

 

[oBa]

Sony 3rd Party Eval in theory makes sense and I understand the whole idea of it. But in practice it sucks for the obvious above stated reasons.

Sony 3rd Party Eval consists of roughly 10 unbiased gamers, who are tasked with writing objective reports (i.e. read book reports) on the status of the game and whether SCEA approves it or not. They offer suggestions and give an overal thumbs up or thumbs down on the release status of the game. I'm ok with this process in theory.

However in reality, this department consists of a batch of hugely biased ex testers, who have an extreme inability to remain open and objective. Many games are given the thumbs down due to "personal tastes" and not really anything relevant to the overal quality of the title.

Also in practice this whole report business doesnt cause any threat whatsoever to the big publishers. A thumbs down to an ea game? Ea will just give sony the middle finger and say ok no madden 0X for you next year and sure enough their game magically becomes approved pronto. The publishers who largely have to eat the thumbs down are the ones with little to no leverage i.e. Agetec, Working Designs, NEC, Vic Tokai, etc.

 

[Azih]

Only 3D crabs for Sony in America?

 

[WalkMan]

Beleive it or not, there's actually a generation of gamers that won't even touch 2D games.

 

[ionicbluebird]

Well, hopefully the new worldwide studios will help with this, as there no is longer an SCEA.

 

[vireland]

true, but WD spent many years working on it to make it better

The Japanese version had ridiculous control schemes like using the SAME button for JUMP and LET GO OF LEDGE. No problem, right? Well, not until you wall jump up a cliff and then hit the button accidentally after Goemon grabbed the top of the cliff - causing him to let go and fall to the bottom again. That was fixed, there were hotkeys for each of the four inventory items instead of having to rotate them. Better inventory management, etc, etc. I think the list of fixes was literally in the mid-hundreds. Some of the mags have betas of a pretty complete English version we gave them, and support for the title from those that played the US one was there. If you're a Goemon fan, it would easily have been a no-brainer purchase considering that it starts before Goemon got his distinctive red outfit and shows how that came about amongst other cool bits. Ah, well. I'm still a fan. Maybe I'll get a crack at another Goemon...

 

[Emotions]

The Japanese version had ridiculous control schemes like using the SAME button for JUMP and LET GO OF LEDGE. No problem, right? Well, not until you wall jump up a cliff and then hit the button accidentally after Goemon grabbed the top of the cliff - causing him to let go and fall to the bottom again. That was fixed, there were hotkeys for each of the four inventory items instead of having to rotate them. Better inventory management, etc, etc. I think the list of fixes was literally in the mid-hundreds. Some of the mags have betas of a pretty complete English version we gave them, and support for the title from those that played the US one was there. If you're a Goemon fan, it would easily have been a no-brainer purchase considering that it starts before Goemon got his distinctive red outfit and shows how that came about amongst other cool bits. Ah, well. I'm still a fan. Maybe I'll get a crack at another Goemon...

Goemon DS

 

[..pakbeka..]

The Japanese version had ridiculous control schemes like using the SAME button for JUMP and LET GO OF LEDGE. No problem, right? Well, not until you wall jump up a cliff and then hit the button accidentally after Goemon grabbed the top of the cliff - causing him to let go and fall to the bottom again. That was fixed, there were hotkeys for each of the four inventory items instead of having to rotate them. Better inventory management, etc, etc. I think the list of fixes was literally in the mid-hundreds. Some of the mags have betas of a pretty complete English version we gave them, and support for the title from those that played the US one was there. If you're a Goemon fan, it would easily have been a no-brainer purchase considering that it starts before Goemon got his distinctive red outfit and shows how that came about amongst other cool bits. Ah, well. I'm still a fan. Maybe I'll get a crack at another Goemon...

you know, those goemon games for the snes are sitting there, just waiting to be localized and released on the wii's virtual console

 

[Zombie James]

I think their stance might be changing somewhat (OpenVG support on the PS3).

 

[Emotions]

you know, those goemon games for the snes are sitting there, just waiting to be localized and released on the wii's virtual console

There's the GBA collection of Goemon 1 - 2, the Snes ports and Goemon DS.

 

[vireland]

There's the GBA collection of Goemon 1 - 2, the Snes ports and Goemon DS.

I know what's out there - I've played all of them. It's an issue of timing and opportunity. It will happen, it's just a matter of working toward the right moment.

 

[..pakbeka..]

I know what's out there - I've played all of them. It's an issue of timing and opportunity. It will happen, it's just a matter of working toward the right moment.

I'll be there when it happens

 

[Emotions]

I'll be there when it happens

Me too if the GBA port and the DS game get localized i'm getting them on day 1,big Goemon fan here.

 

[bumpkin]

I've heard horror stories about it taking multiple times for Capcom to finally get Mega Man 8 and Mega Man X4 approved way back when. Also heard their stand has a lot to do with how few SNK titles have been released.

 

[typhonsentra]

Wow, the Monroeworld forums. That takes me back.

 

[Cheerilee]

I know what's out there - I've played all of them. It's an issue of timing and opportunity. It will happen, it's just a matter of working toward the right moment.

New company name?

Spoiler

"Our games will go to 11 again!"

 

[jarrod]

I've heard horror stories about it taking multiple times for Capcom to finally get Mega Man 8 and Mega Man X4 approved way back when.

They were very nearly Saturn exclusives in the US, SCEA's justification for continued blocking being that Mega Man was too closely associated with Nintendo platforms. It took Capcom of Japan stepping and threatening to halt release of Resident Evil before SCEI woke up, slapped SCEA around and got the games approved. SCEA seems to have held something of a grudge against Capcom ever since imo, they're very hard on process approval when their games come up.

 

[Acosta]

Is not Sony, it´s only the bunch of loosers that Sony has in approval group in SCEA. They wouldn´t reckonise a good game from a bad one even if it hit on their heads.

If I could erase something on this industry, they will be among the first on my list. That people don´t deserve their job and are affecting negatively a perfect valid way to make a videogame.

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

Does Sony Hate 2D?

Does a bear shit in the woods?

 

[typhonsentra]

Does a bear shit in the woods?

To be fair though, the main cause for the decline of 2D games was probably the N64. SCEA had to fight against the perception that the Playstation was inferior hardware, and since Nintendo was pimping 2D as the future, they too were forced to fight on that field.

 

[Archie]

To be fair though, the main cause for the decline of 2D games was probably the N64. SCEA had to fight against the perception that the Playstation was inferior hardware, and since Nintendo was pimping 2D as the future, they too were forced to fight on that field.

what

 

[SonicMegaDrive]

To be fair though, the main cause for the decline of 2D games was probably the N64. SCEA had to fight against the perception that the Playstation was inferior hardware, and since Nintendo was pimping 3D as the future, they too were forced to fight on that field.

You're exactly right that's why Sony did it. I don't agree with it, of course, but you're right on the mark.

 

[Acosta]

To be fair though, the main cause for the decline of 2D games was probably the N64. SCEA had to fight against the perception that the Playstation was inferior hardware, and since Nintendo was pimping 2D as the future, they too were forced to fight on that field.

Sure, sure, and now explain to everybody here why SCEJ doen´t have any problem with 2D games and SCEA has it.

Oh, yes!, now I understand why Playstation was a failure in Japan and a huge success in USA! because SCEA guardians were there to protect gamers of inferior type of games, Thanks!, thanks I say.

Well, I suppose all this should be address to SCEA at all. I mean, the reasoning could be that one you say, but is only a justification for stupidity.

 

[WalkMan]

Bah! I wish there were a way to assassinate the SCEA counsel and appoint new members, preferably former members of SCEJ.

 

[Vibri]

Loco Roco says hi