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[RichiRamjag]

But the conference was the most high profile place to do it, and they gave a very different impression on stage. I just think they should have said so before things got underway.

Again I have no problem with this otherwise, just think it's a learning lesson for Sony and future companies that want to launch kickstarters on stage.



"Obvious" is not the same as transparent. I try not to make assumptions because there's all sorts of times that's proven false. I figured they had their hand in it, at least some part time exclusivity, but they are significantly more involved in that I think people should know that before they go to donate to a Kickstarter. I don't think it's wrong at all, but I think they should let people know BEFORE the Kickstarter starts.

I just figured that an announcement on the Sony stage by Sony for a game listed as a Sony (console) exclusive was going to be partially funded by Sony. Had Sony officially announced they were funding a month from now, then things would be a bit more shady, but it wasn't even within 24 hours.

 

[dark10x]

The only way to gauge it was to spend money on market research. Not many pubs are going to do that with an ip they don't own and with said ip's financial history. Also it's been 14 years. It's so easy to say, just fund it.

Makes me wonder if people think other financial bombs should be green lighted because they say so.

Exactly. This KickStarter WAS market research.

It was the lowest risk method for approaching this project. If that's what it takes to get games like this made, then so be it. The majority of Japanese game publishers no longer care about console gaming.

Again I would have less issue about the kickstarter if everyone involved with the development of the game would stop being so obtuse about what is actually going on here. But it stands that a large publisher doing this is a pretty shitty thing to do.

You seem so damn offended by this when it would be so easy to ignore.

You really want to talk about threats to the industry? Go look up mobile games.

 

[Harlequin]

I just think Sony should have been more upfront about their relationship with the game from the go. They said "we just wanted to let them have the stage because it's been so requested this game" or something to that effect when they were showing it, as if it was just a courtesy to answering fans dreams that they gave Yu the stage. Obviously I thought there was maybe some console exclusivity window or something, but Sony should have acknowledged out front this whole thing.

I have no problem with opening a Kickstarter on stage, I just hope next time there's a lot more transparency involved.

It's kind of understandable why they weren't, though. I mean, if Sony's condition for funding development was that the Kickstarter campaign had to be a success then it wasn't even clear at the time whether Sony would fund it. And if they had already announced that they would fund the game but the campaign - against all expectations - would not have been successful then everyone would've been angry at Sony. They would've looked like the bad guy for getting everyone's hopes up and then crushing them. Only announcing it after the campain's target was reached makes sense. Was it a little crappy of them? Maybe. But I think it's also quite understandable.

 

[PdotMichael]

"Obvious" is not the same as transparent. I try not to make assumptions because there's all sorts of times that's proven false. I figured they had their hand in it, at least some part time exclusivity, but they are significantly more involved in that I think people should know that before they go to donate to a Kickstarter. I don't think it's wrong at all, but I think they should let people know BEFORE the Kickstarter starts.

Yeah, saying that Shenmue will only come for PC and PS4 is totally not transparent to the backers.

Currently we are planning development only for PC (Windows) and PS4.

 

[kuroshiki]

If there wasn't a market then, why would there be a market now?
.

WE ARE NOT STILL SURE THERE IS BIG ENOUGH MARKET. That's why yu and sony are doing kickstarter for fuck's sake.

 

[UnluckyKate]

Guys, sony isn't the only one producing and helping money wise. I posted an interview that also talks about Sega holding the rights :
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1065107

 

[DeepEnigma]

I'm not sure why you seem to care - you don't have to put any money up front. If it works out then you get the game without investment - if not, no loss to you. What's the problem?

This is the main point that is a win for all gamers. And those still angry are clearly not being transparent that it is their platform preference driving most of the anger.

 

[GavinGT]

But clearly there was a market for it if they had the ability to gain the info that it was one of the most requested games on ps4. The kickstarter is not going to guarantee that this game will sell at all. The info that they gained was the same.

Nobody knew just how big the audience was. This is an expensive project and there need to be hundreds of thousands of people ready to pay $60 if it's going to recoup costs. Just because they received lots of tweets saying "Shenmue #BuildingTheList" doesn't necessarily translate into hundreds of thousands of sales. Maybe it was just an incredibly vocal minority.

 

[ramparter]

You don't understand what impossible dead franchise is then.

Publisher put something on pre-order means they 1) own the IP 2) fully responsible for rise and fall of the IP.

Sony 1) doesn't own Shenmue IP 2) Is NOT making the game 3) just financially supporting it.

and for 14 years, no one picked up Shenmue. NO ONE. Not even MS, with pocket that is deeper than anyone in the goddamn IT in the WORLD.

Spoiler

You don't see? Without kickstarter, shenmue 3 is NOT BEING MADE. There is NO GAME. If kickstart failed, it only consolidated the belief that dominated last 14 years that THERE IS NO MARKET FOR SHENMUE.

SONY is NOT going to fund the game that is GUARANTEED to lose money.

I agree, 2 millions from Kickstarter wouldn't really help. Even if it reached 10 millions that wouldn't be enough.

Kickstarter was to prove whether people actually care and whether they are ready to actually pay.

 

[Aenima]

If there wasn't a market then, why would there now?.

Dude, why u tring so hard?
Dreamcast sold 10 million consoles. PS4 is already above 20, plus the PC userbase. Take a rest bro, ur embarassing urself.

 

[Tomohawk]

Im not sure Sony would have announced shen mue 3 at their conference if they didn't think it would meet its goal.

 

[DEATH_INC]

Because everybody saying that they're going to buy something is guaranteed to actually purchase it when it actually gets made... Yeah, sure.

Exactly. Anyone or any group on the internet can make a petition or a twitter campaign saying they want this or that and they would support it, but it isn't realistic. I say this as a huge fan but Shenmue is a seriously risky and potentially costly investment for any financial party dealing with it. For a game this niche with such a long absence you need assurances of interest. If anyone considering financing was so sure it would be successful it would have been made years ago.

 

[xxracerxx]

I see Littlefang is still on a mission telling everyone that Sony forced the devs to do this Kickstarter and that all the fans that backed this are basically fucked if when this deal falls through.

 

[RichiRamjag]

If there wasn't a market then, why would there be a market now?




The average backing rate on the kickstarter also indicates that there are a few dedicated fans that will pay a high price rather than that many people are interested in buying the game. So I don't see how that data is any more reliable.

Again I would have less issue about the kickstarter if everyone involved with the development of the game would stop being so obtuse about what is actually going on here. But it stands that a large publisher doing this is a pretty shitty thing to do.

The average backing rate is what? $79? The money is pledged, I consider the game ending up as one of the fastest funded kickstarter excellent data. Sony is helping to make a game I've waited 14 years for, how shitty of them. Especially to announce that they're funding within 24 hours for a kickstarter where pledges can be removed for 31 days. Real dastardly group they've got over at Sony HQ...

I've got to take my leave from this topic.

 

[Cindres]

Eh, I think maybe the KS, like others have said here, was their market research. I mean maybe they did just want to see if people were serious about Shenmue 3 or if it was just a very vocal, but small, group of fans. Clearly expectations have been surpassed in terms of interest so here they go.

It's been made pretty clear now, anyone that wants to can now retract their pledge if they so wish and I don't believe they'll have any trouble still meeting their KS goals anyway.

 

[Amir0x]

Yeah, saying that Shenmue will only come for PC and PS4 is totally not transparent to the backers.

do you know how many Kickstarters say that and then have XBO, Vita, etc stretchgoals added later on?

Additionally, saying it will only come out for PC and PS4 is not the same as simply saying up front what their involvement is.

I'm honestly surprised anybody could be against it - even if you thought it was clear, it definitely makes it more kosher to simply state it outright in an official capacity.

 

[The Sarcastic Dude]

They needed to gauge interest for Shenmue? lol

Anyways big exclusive for Sony and huge loss for Xbox.

Hardly. Only the niche audience is really interested in this game. The mass market doesn't give a hoot about Shenmue.

 

[Zekra Dezivad]

and the arguments. "it's unethical of sony".

I sincerely don't care as long as Shenmue III exist.
I wouldn't care even if this wasn't the only way or the best way to make Shenmue III happen.
It happened.
It's sufficient to me.

I don't think the one's clamoring for a Yakuza KS are the same ones complaining about the Shenmue one.

It shows that you can't make everyone happy.
With this in mind, why can't we all enjoy the fact that Shenmue III is in development?
Yeah, Shenmue III, it's still hard to believe.

 

[GavinGT]

I wouldn't care if Adam Boyes stomped on a bunch of puppies on his way up to the stage to announce this.

 

[kuroshiki]

do you know how many Kickstarters say that and then have XBO, Vita, etc stretchgoals added later on?

Additionally, saying it will only come out for PC and PS4 is not the same as simply saying up front what their involvement is.

I'm honestly surprised anybody could be against it - even if you thought it was clear, it definitely makes it more kosher to simply state it outright in an official capacity.

I don't know man. Inviting and announcing shenmue 3 and its creator on their prime spot staging pretty much telling everyone that Sony is involved in this.

and 2 mil goal? No one in their right mind knows this is nowhere near enough. Most of gamers I'm sure pretty much knew some deal was going on back stage, and given recent bloodstained kickstarter, it would not be that hard to guess.

 

[DeepEnigma]

I wouldn't care if Adam Boyes stomped on a bunch of puppies on his way up to the stage to announce this.

I dunno, I would draw the line there.

Spoiler

I know it was satire.

 

[Ishan]

This was well explained in the sony gamespot video of why they went ks way ... I'm
Askin everyone objecting would you prefer sony refunding all the 2-3 mill (it's peanuts to them ) and keeping all te expecting backing promises or would that be using you too ? This game is atleast 60 mill anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot . (30 mill dev and 30 marketing ) so sony is matching your dollar 20 to one at least stop being idiotic about the situation or well raise this kickstarter to 60 mill atleast then we can talk .

 

[harSon]

I don't see why people are making a huge issue about transparency. The two largest Kickstarters prior to Shenmue III utilized Kickstarter in the same fashion.

For Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night - it's mentioned plain as day in the Kickstarter video that they have "found partners willing to support us with funding if we can prove a demand for this style of game."

Yooka-Laylee, within their Kickstarter video, says that without the Kickstarter - it'll be a project living within it's budget. They say "Kickstarter is important for us because it means we're going to be able to expand the game beyond the initial vision, and add a lot more depth and features... and support for further platforms as well."

Compare that to Sony who says "Now recently a developer told us they were bringing back a fan favorite Kickstarter to PC & PS4. Now this is very much their project, but we wanted to celebrate their announcement on our stage..." proceeded by showing the Kickstarter video which mentions nothing about outsider funding of any sort. They don't mention the fact that it's very much both of their projects, and that they're actually utilizing Kickstarter as a means of gauging interest and subsidizing development until the initiative had already drawn in nearly $2 million dollars. It's mentioned in some E3 interview, and is still not mentioned on the Kickstarter page.

There's nothing inherently wrong with a multi-billion dollar corporation utilizing crowd funding as a benchmark for interest and a development cost subsidy. But they should be up front about it, like numerous Kickstarters in the past have done. I don't see why people are getting bent out of shape about these methods being put on blast. You can be excited about Shenmue III, be appreciative of Sony's efforts making the game a possibility and not be a fan of how the process was handled. What's wrong with holding that position?

 

[Bergerac]

Someone petition Sony to get REmake 2 and Silent Hills done.

 

[EricTheCleric]

People will be dissapointed on how Shenmue 3 will end up. 10 million usd is nothing. This will need at least 100 million usd for the small number of people interested in it to be satisfied with the result and maybe reach a wider target audience. The cost for the DREAMCAST original was around 50 million USD. Add to this increased costs for personell, development (software, licensing and hardware) and inflation.

Statistically, Kickstarter is an awful way to sample the population.

 

[xxracerxx]

This was well explained in the sony gamespot video of why they went ks way ... I'm
Askin everyone objecting would you prefer sony refunding all the 2-3 mill (it's peanuts to them ) and keeping all te expecting backing promises or would that be using you too ? This game is atleast 60 mill anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot . (30 mill dev and 30 marketing ) so sony is matching your dollar 20 to one at least stop being idiotic about the situation or well raise this kickstarter to 60 mill atleast then we can talk .

I would assume if the backers got a refund without asking they would be pretty pissed because then they would not be getting the game for $30 and possibly anything other incentive they backed for.

Someone petition Sony to get REmake 2 and Silent Hills done.

Petitions are bullshit.

 

[GavinGT]

This was well explained in the sony gamespot video of why they went ks way ... I'm
Askin everyone objecting would you prefer sony refunding all the 2-3 mill (it's peanuts to them ) and keeping all te expecting backing promises or would that be using you too ? This game is atleast 60 mill anyone who thinks otherwise is an idiot . (30 mill dev and 30 marketing ) so sony is matching your dollar 20 to one at least stop being idiotic about the situation or well raise this kickstarter to 60 mill atleast then we can talk .

I'm thinking more like $20 million for development and a couple million for marketing. I doubt we see Shenmue 3 TV ads.

 

[PdotMichael]

do you know how many Kickstarters say that and then have XBO, Vita, etc stretchgoals added later on?

Additionally, saying it will only come out for PC and PS4 is not the same as simply saying up front what their involvement is.

So? Backing it for something that isn't announced is hardly something you can blame the developers, or even Sony which are just a part of the business plan for Shenmue 3, for it.

 

[Jomjom]

If there wasn't a market then, why would there be a market now?

Also if you haven't noticed, retro is super in right now. It's why MS has the Rare collection, why Nintendo has Earthbound 1 localizing and Mario Maker, and it's why Sony has Shenmue 3 KS and FF7 remake on stage.

 

[Tomohawk]

I think a lot of people take for granted how uninformed the average kick starter backer is. It doesn't hurt to be clear of your intentions to the fans from the start. I could see why Sony might not want to seem like they are using kickstarter though.

 

[SpaceHorror]

Man, I really don't give a shit that Sony held back revealing they were going to have a part in funding it. I figured they had a hand in it anyway.

I'm just glad we are finally getting Shenmue 3. In the end, that's all that will ever matter to me.

 

[Ishan]

I would assume if the backers got a refund without asking they would be pretty pissed because then they would not be getting the game for $30 and possibly anything other incentive they backed for.



Petitions are bullshit.

I meant sony gives you back your money and you still get what you paid for ... All the ppl saying sony this that ... 2-3 millions is legit peanuts for a game like shenmue .... It's a token amount to big companies . Yes a small indie title it means real dev costs it was obviously an Interest gauge for this . When I saw the announcement I thought Jesus can shenmue make 60 mill on ks ... Then I heard 2 mill and I was like okay just a out your money where your mouth is test .

Now my question is if sony refunded every single backer on ks have them what they paid for already . Is that okay ? Cause 3 mill means nothing to a company sony's size ... But it'll be interpreted in other ways . It's a lose lose and more lose for sony with some ppl

 

[Qvoth]

We will never know the full extent of yu's deal with Sony, if this really blows up I'm not surprised if it goes to xb1 tbh, it is a 3rd party deal after all
For sf5 did Sony actuality help develop the game? Since it seems like Sony is only partially funding this

 

[JetSetRadio]

Not suprised, amazing move.

 

[Chocolate & Vanilla]

Who gives a shit. Just think of Sony as putting down 20 mil on KS because Shu wanted a Ryo jacket

 

[kinoki]

The only way to gauge it was to spend money on market research. Not many pubs are going to do that with an ip they don't own and with said ip's financial history. Also it's been 14 years. It's so easy to say, just fund it.

Makes me wonder if people think other financial bombs should be green lighted because they say so.

Market research probably showed them that there were people willing to spend thousands of dollars on it. That the fans would do a much better job at marketing and that Kickstarter would be a great place to start. By limiting the fans to spend $60 on it would make the game less profitable. By including micro transactions they would piss fans off. This is having your cake and eat it.

 

[xxracerxx]

I meant sony gives you back your money and you still get what you paid for ... All the ppl saying sony this that ... 2-3 millions is legit peanuts for a game like shenmue .... It's a token amount to big companies . Yes a small indie title it means real dev costs it was obviously an Interest gauge for this . When I saw the announcement I thought Jesus can shenmue make 60 mill on ks ... Then I heard 2 mill and I was like okay just a out your money where your mouth is test .

Now my question is if sony refunded every single backer on ks have them what they paid for already . Is that okay ? Cause 3 mill means nothing to a company sony's size ... But it'll be interpreted in other ways . It's a lose lose and more lose for sony with some ppl

I think people are really inflating the development costs of 3 here. Just because the old games cost an arm and a leg to make doesn't necessarily mean this game is going to be 60 million.

Irregardless, paying the 3 million back to the backers is 3 million less for development, because it is not a measly sum, no matter the company.

 

[Ishan]

I'm thinking more like $20 million for development and a couple million for marketing. I doubt we see Shenmue 3 TV ads.

I can get with 20 mill def cause tech has gone far enough that shenmue mechanics are easier to achieve ... Def more than 2 mil marketing 2 mil is nothing marketing wise .... It'll buy you what three (only 3 no repeats) 30 second slots during non prime time ? This will be marketed strongly . And sony's def footing the bill on that

 

[leroidys]

I don't see why people are making a huge issue about transparency. The two largest Kickstarters prior to Shenmue III utilized Kickstarter in the same fashion.

For Bloodstained: Ritual of the Night - it's mentioned plain as day in the Kickstarter video that they have "found partners willing to support us with funding if we can prove a demand for this style of game."

Yooka-Laylee, within their Kickstarter video, says that without the Kickstarter - it'll be a project living within it's budget. They say "Kickstarter is important for us because it means we're going to be able to expand the game beyond the initial vision, and add a lot more depth and features... and support for further platforms as well."

Compare that to Sony who says "Now recently a developer told us they were bringing back a fan favorite Kickstarter to PC & PS4. Now this is very much their project, but we wanted to celebrate their announcement on our stage..." proceeded by showing the Kickstarter video which mentions nothing about outsider funding of any sort. They don't mention the fact that it's very much both of their projects, and that they're actually utilizing Kickstarter as a means of gauging interest and subsidizing development until the initiative had already drawn in nearly $2 million dollars. It's mentioned in some E3 interview, and is still not mentioned on the Kickstarter page.

There's nothing inherently wrong with a multi-billion dollar corporation utilizing crowd funding as a benchmark for interest and a development cost subsidy. But they should be up front about it, like numerous Kickstarters in the past have done. I don't see why people are getting bent out of shape about these methods being put on blast. You can be excited about Shenmue III, be appreciative of Sony's efforts making the game a possibility and not be a fan of how the process was handled. What's wrong with holding that position?

Thanks for this, this is pretty much exactly my thoughts and I think does a better job of explaining them than I managed to do.

 

[crimilde]

Well, here's my 2 cents about this:

1. This is not Sony's project, it's Suzuki's. The money in no way goes to Sony, it goes to Suzuki's team. If some people at Sony wanted the game to happen but they could not justify the funding internally, Kickstarter is definitely the fastest way of doing that, of proving to their Finance division etc. that this game is worth investing time and money in. Adam Boyes was quite clear on that in the interview.

2. Sony are also helping with development now that the Kickstarter has been successful, so this is also a plus meaning that Suzuki will have enough resources to get things done.

3. Sony is basically just another backer at this point, with the added bonus of developers helping out, they are helping make a fan dream come true.

4. A franchise dead for 14 years now is coming back solely because of this campaign.

5. People who backed the game not only get it cheaper, but also receive some cool perks and items they enjoy as part of their collection, and have the satisfaction that they contributed to the game's existence.

How is any of this bad? I fail to see the moral dubiousness here.

EDIT: for point n° 1, of course Sony will get a cut from the sales, I meant that inf the project flops, the money we gave to the Kickstarter campaign will not go in Sony's pockets, as some people are supposing.

 

[Tomohawk]

If shenmue 3 is ever profitable it would be cool if they gave backers a cut, would have been a cool way to announce it.

 

[GavinGT]

I can get with 20 mill def cause tech has gone far enough that shenmue mechanics are easier to achieve ... Def more than 2 mil marketing 2 mil is nothing marketing wise .... It'll buy you what three (only 3 no repeats) 30 second slots during non prime time ? This will be marketed strongly . And sony's def footing the bill on that

I don't see Sony paying for TV ads for a downloadable game. Remember it's download-only on PS4.

 

[Callibretto]

Petitions are bullshit.

Tweeting gio corsi is apparently legit though. Lol

 

[Sparkedglory]

Well, here's my 2 cents about this:

1. This is not Sony's project, it's Suzuki's. The money in no way goes to Sony, it goes to Suzuki's team. If some people at Sony wanted the game to happen but they could not justify the funding internally, Kickstarter is definitely the fastest way of doing that, of proving to their Finance division etc. that this game is worth investing time and money in. Adam Boyes was quite clear on that in the interview.

2. Sony are also helping with development now that the Kickstarter has been successful, so this is also a plus meaning that Suzuki will have enough resources to get things done.

3. Sony is basically just another backer at this point, with the added bonus of developers helping out, they are helping make a fan dream come true.

4. A franchise dead for 14 years now is coming back solely because of this campaign.

5. People who backed the game not only get it cheaper, but also receive some cool perks and items they enjoy as part of their collection, and have the satisfaction that they contributed to the game's existence.

How is any of this bad? I fail to see the moral dubiousness here.

While I do pretty much agree with everything you said. There's no way Sony doesn't a least get a cut of the ps4 sales

 

[Ishan]

I think people are really inflating the development costs of 3 here. Just because the old games cost an arm and a leg to make doesn't necessarily mean this game is going to be 60 million.

Irregardless, paying the 3 million back to the backers is 3 million less for development, because it is not a measly sum, no matter the company.

I know but 3 mill is a an easy avoid bad publicity write off . But this issue is way murkier ... The point I was making is if sony did an "evil " thing and were testig the waters ... It's super easy to look like the "good" company . Just refund everyone and still give them what they paid for etc ... The point is many ppl think it's okay . I personally thinks what they did was perfectly fine .. This was more directed to the ppl "outraged" that sony used ks to help fund this .

 

[crimilde]

While I do pretty much agree with everything you said. There's no way Sony doesn't a least get a cut of the ps4 sales

I completely agree, I was referring to some people saying that if this flops, the Kickstarter money goes into Sony's pockets.

 

[StoppedInTracks]

Well, here's my 2 cents about this:

1. This is not Sony's project, it's Suzuki's. The money in no way goes to Sony, it goes to Suzuki's team. If some people at Sony wanted the game to happen but they could not justify the funding internally, Kickstarter is definitely the fastest way of doing that, of proving to their Finance division etc. that this game is worth investing time and money in. Adam Boyes was quite clear on that in the interview.

2. Sony are also helping with development now that the Kickstarter has been successful, so this is also a plus meaning that Suzuki will have enough resources to get things done.

3. Sony is basically just another backer at this point, with the added bonus of developers helping out, they are helping make a fan dream come true.

4. A franchise dead for 14 years now is coming back solely because of this campaign.

5. People who backed the game not only get it cheaper, but also receive some cool perks and items they enjoy as part of their collection, and have the satisfaction that they contributed to the game's existence.

How is any of this bad? I fail to see the moral dubiousness here.

And on top of that it is NOT PS4 EXCLUSIVE. Game comes out on PC as well.

Really stupid for people to look for malicious intent from Sony behind this KS.

 

[Callibretto]

Well, here's my 2 cents about this:

1. This is not Sony's project, it's Suzuki's. The money in no way goes to Sony, it goes to Suzuki's team. If some people at Sony wanted the game to happen but they could not justify the funding internally, Kickstarter is definitely the fastest way of doing that, of proving to their Finance division etc. that this game is worth investing time and money in. Adam Boyes was quite clear on that in the interview.

2. Sony are also helping with development now that the Kickstarter has been successful, so this is also a plus meaning that Suzuki will have enough resources to get things done.

3. Sony is basically just another backer at this point, with the added bonus of developers helping out, they are helping make a fan dream come true.

4. A franchise dead for 14 years now is coming back solely because of this campaign.

5. People who backed the game not only get it cheaper, but also receive some cool perks and items they enjoy as part of their collection, and have the satisfaction that they contributed to the game's existence.

How is any of this bad? I fail to see the moral dubiousness here.

Some of the money will definitely go to Sony, there no way Sony giving out millions for this without a way to make their money back. Even a pub fund where Sony give money upfront to indie studio, they'll get their money back first before the developer see their profit money.

 

[panda-zebra]

whoa there' a lot of assumptions and picking things right out of the air going on here in the last page or so, rein it in or have the discussion descend even further into pointless territory.

 

[TBiddy]

And on top of that it is NOT PS4 EXCLUSIVE. Game comes out on PC as well.

Really stupid for people to look for malicious intent from Sony behind this KS.

Agreed. The presentation at E3 was a bit weird, but I don't see a problem with this approach.