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Sony Is Struggling With PlayStation 5 Price Due to Costly Parts

Elenchus

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It wouldn't, people have using the 30% more powerful since XSX was announced base on Phils comments?
People assumed XSX is 12TF and PS5 HAS to be less powerful.

I don’t think it’s that at all. I think MS gave up the asthetics of having a console sized box in exchange for having a more powerful console that is far cheaper to cool. I think Sony’s vanity may have gotten the better of them here and MS’s decision to go with a tower just may be a game changer.
 
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Most of the 12 navi TFLOPS comes from people speculating about the off hand 2x Xbox One X comment and the 8x Xbox One number (both cannot be true at the same time taken at face value, so they are approximations which MS never committed to). The first shot and speculations have focused on explaining how it is felt it could be possible, but there is a great deal of unknown being guess there too by mostly non chip designers with knowledge of the HW at hand nor the custom enhancements in these semi-custom designs and the level of redundancy in them.

The GPU data “leaked” have been tied together sensibly but the tie to PS5 is also a bit flimsy. Not seeing another stepping with more CU’s May or may not be repeated to PS5.

I do not see hard data around either GPU.

Fair points. "Hard" hard data, i.e anything official or confirmed by Sony and MS directly, hasn't happened and probably won't happen for a very long time. So at least in claiming any of this stuff as official, yeah, people should stop short of doing that.

But, since we're all so eager to speculate about these next-gen systems, we do have to come to some type of standard on what can be considered valid proof or evidence in light of any official confirmation. Regarding XSX, I think MS understand for them how important the power narrative is because, besides things like BC, GamePass and (seemingly) Xcloud, they don't have too much of tangible proof of goodwill with the gaming community at large this past generation. That's just how badly the XBO botched things, and games like MCC launching like a broken mess, plus Scalebound and Phatom Dust remake getting cancelled, created a lot of bad will. The X being the peak power of console performance at the time of its release helped to at least establish goodwill back to the Xbox platform in terms of the "power crown" and XBO didn't enjoy a swell of strong, industry-pushing 1st party content near its tailend to turn goodwill on the software front around the way, say, PS3 managed to from 2010-2013.

So ensuring they have a very powerful console, that's probably something really important for MS because winning back the software narrative will take a lot of time, but they could theoretically have the more powerful next-gen console out there in the wild by the end of this year. It's a part of the narrative they can more easily control and I think after the X it's something they are just really focused on prioritizing. Sony OTOH, they don't have as big a need for controlling that part of the conversation, they've mopped generations in the past having the less powerful system (PS2), and know they have the goodwill in terms of 1st party software expectations based simply off their strong performance with PS4 on that front. They would likely be prioritizing more of that type of software development for PS5 as soon as possible versus needing to allocate portions of those funds for the most powerful next-gen system when they know they will get that 3rd party support regardless and optimized for their platform because of how many more markets PS is in versus Xbox, just going by this current generation. It's less a concern for them.

That's a fair reason why I personally do think MS implies 12TF Navi when they talk about XSX, especially if Lockhart does exist, because why go with a low-price alternative if both your low and high-priced products come up short to your competitor's offering? MS would certainly have some expectation of where PS5's specs are at by this point (vice-versa with Sony regarding XSX), and yet Lockhart very much still seems like it's a thing. In a next-gen environment where PS5 were actually handily more capable than XSX, wouldn't a multi-billion dollar conglomerate absolutely cancel the lowest end altogether? That would be the sensible business decision, but it doesn't seem to be the case.

Could of course be the case that if XSX is actually, say, 9-10TF Navi (equivalent to about 12TF GCN), then maybe they could have a value proposition in a 4TF Lockhart, but the insiders themselves implicate such a scenario being business suicide because none of them have been seen implying PS5 will be less than 12TF Navi. So if that's true, and MS by now would know that's true (if the insiders know, MS and Sony would DEFINITELY know), why would they bother with Lockhart? Just doesn't add up. Plus also, you can see the size and dimensions for XSX and deduce that such a size is fitting for a system generating a good amount of heat (including possibly having cooling on both sides of the board)....even if that doesn't hint at 12TF Navi, it hints at something pretty close to it imho.

Now about Sony...again I don't want to mean "hard data" as in official; no claims have been made by Sony on pretty much anything regarding specs, so of course take it all with a pinch of salt. However, we already know Oberon has regression testing modes for both PS4 and PS4 Pro, and it's extremely unlikely AMD would be doing that for GPU intended for the PC market because I doubt Sony would appreciate a GPU card out on PC that could play PS games natively (BUT, maybe they could? Maybe that's part of their goal in embracing PC gaming more? SEGA did something very similar back in 1995 with the Diamond NV-1 card between them and Nvidia, it was Nvidia's first GPU card in fact, and basically a SEGA Saturn on a PC GPU card, even having Saturn controller ports).

So that's one way it (and, by proxy, the benchmarks) tie in with being PlayStation-related, imho. I'd also like to bring up another GPU that was datamined recently, may or may not be Oberon-related but it had 36CUs as well and HBM2 memory instead of GDDR6. However it seemed tuned for compute rather than gaming. It's a very loose thread of connection TBF, but it being 36CUs could mean it has some type of relation with Oberon, and again, Oberon has had regression testing set exactly to PS4 and PS4 Pro clocks. Maybe that GPU with HBM2 could've been an offshoot, maybe something tied to Sony with big data/server markets in mind, and possibly some connection to PS5 on top of that?

It's a lot of speculation and guesswork, yes, but that's what people do when speculating on next-gen hardware, and we can't wait forever while Sony and MS take their sweet time in providing any official specifications. But I personally don't think you need to be Sony or MS to at least get within very good range of correctly speculating what the official technical aspects could be, either.
 
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Clarissa

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I met with Kenichiro Yoshida just a few days ago over a meal of sushi. Dude looked so emaciated. He said he hasn't been able to eat or sleep properly.

He revealed that the ps5 specs is only just around the ballpark of 6 teraflops and that he got screwed over by Lisa Su. It actually costs him at least 999 usd to make a ps5.

That's the reason why there hasn't been any news about the ps5.


"Sony doomed desu!!! Sony doomed desu!!!" he cried.

"But I'm sure there'll be great exclusives day 1 to help boost the sales of PS5 right?" I asked.

"We only have Knack 3 desu" he said.

"Hai. Sony doomed desu. Sony doomed" I replied.

He grabbed the sushi chopsticks and tried to commit sudoku but the chopsticks broke when he tried to pierce his portly belly with it.

He cried like a baby upon realising that he failed even at commiting sudoku.
 

The Pleasure

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You know I wonder if the similarity in cost means a huge divergence in priorities such as Ms going for brute power while sony going to far faster sdd speed. How would this impact game design?

I'm tired of ass creed loading for minutes. I thought that disappeared when the neo geo cd died.
 

PlayStaytion

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Whatever, contents will derive sales ,with no contents there is still room left for hobbyists and early adopters.
 

wolywood

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This is just another sign that while the fat lady may not yet be singing about the death of the traditional video game console, she's definitely warming up.
 

mckmas8808

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This is just another sign that while the fat lady may not yet be singing about the death of the traditional video game console, she's definitely warming up.

Not at all. As a matter of fact, it's not even close because what's the alternative? Streaming only consoles? LOL!!!
 
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Gavon West

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£500 is still £500 dude


Anyway if Sony is struggling to price PS5 this makes it hard to believe the machine is the lesser of the two Next-Gen consoles.
It's either very close and has some very expensive parts that the XSX doesn't.
Or its more powerful fullstop.
Whatever is costing Sony is costing MS too and both companies have budgets which is likely the equal in value
There is no one without the other.
You're forgetting a couple of nuggets of information here. 1) Sony is awfully quiet and they're absent 2 E3 pressers in a row. One, on the eve of perhaps the most important of any - next generation. 2) I whole heartedly doubt the budget for both Series X and PS5 are the same. One company can afford way more than the other.

Its hilarious how some of you miss the forest for the trees. Sony is in a pickle! That much can be said. They've just blatantly admitted that their waiting to see what Microsoft does before reveling the price of their new console. Since Sony entered the gaming industry they've always had price revealed in February with mass production starting in the Spring. Now, they wanna wait and see what their competitors do?

And I cant wait to see how some of you justify the PS5 being at the same price as the Series X when the PS5 is the weaker system. Im expecting Sony to get a pass though. At least on this forum. Lol
 

Dabaus

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Cross posting from another thread:

500 dollars is fine if the specs are in line the the series x give or take a teraflop. But 9 vs. 12 for the same price? Thats asking alot. If sony shot for a 399 price point and the specs reflect that but in the end still cost them 500 then that is a big time screw up on their part. Its not at PS3 599 hard to program for, losing all your exclusive third parties or xbox one reveal levels of screw up, but its not the PR they want or need at the beginning of a new console cycle. Especially with lockheart in the background.

Sony done Goofed. Thats why their hiding the PS5 as much as they are. No one way to spin what they have. The 399 price point put them in a box and MS just out smarted them. Damn shame too.
 
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devilNprada

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Sony done Goofed. Thats why their hiding the PS5 as much as they are. No one way to spin what they have. The 399 price point put them in a box and MS just out smarted them. Damn shame too.

We don't know this yet...
I guess we wait and see if there is still a market for a home console. There are technically better mini towers I can put in my living room.
 
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Its hilarious how some of you miss the forest for the trees. Sony is in a pickle! That much can be said. They've just blatantly admitted that their waiting to see what Microsoft does before reveling the price of their new console. Since Sony entered the gaming industry they've always had price revealed in February with mass production starting in the Spring. Now, they wanna wait and see what their competitors do?
Never have they done this, they announced the ps1 after the Saturn was out (their e3 presentation was just 299).

The PS2 came out way after the Dreeacast, so this wasn't that relevant)
PS3 out about 1 year after the 360, costs more anyway.
PS4, OK they may have made the last call for the price after MS announced theirs, but why not 450 then? the other was 499... But they still had to make up a couple of scenarios (what if MS announces at 299? 399? 499? etc.)
PS5 - With the whole infrastructure being mostly out of line in China right now I hope they have other alternatives, that will have effects on prices and availability of a lot of goods in the next couple of months (at the very least), that affects everyone right now - far beyond video games consoles.
 

mckmas8808

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Cross posting from another thread:

500 dollars is fine if the specs are in line the the series x give or take a teraflop. But 9 vs. 12 for the same price? Thats asking alot. If sony shot for a 399 price point and the specs reflect that but in the end still cost them 500 then that is a big time screw up on their part. Its not at PS3 599 hard to program for, losing all your exclusive third parties or xbox one reveal levels of screw up, but its not the PR they want or need at the beginning of a new console cycle. Especially with lockheart in the background.

Sony done Goofed. Thats why their hiding the PS5 as much as they are. No one way to spin what they have. The 399 price point put them in a box and MS just out smarted them. Damn shame too.

Microsoft outsmarted them how?
 

Gavon West

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Never have they done this, they announced the ps1 after the Saturn was out (their e3 presentation was just 299).

The PS2 came out way after the Dreeacast, so this wasn't that relevant)
PS3 out about 1 year after the 360, costs more anyway.
PS4, OK they may have made the last call for the price after MS announced theirs, but why not 450 then? the other was 499... But they still had to make up a couple of scenarios (what if MS announces at 299? 399? 499? etc.)
PS5 - With the whole infrastructure being mostly out of line in China right now I hope they have other alternatives, that will have effects on prices and availability of a lot of goods in the next couple of months (at the very least), that affects everyone right now - far beyond video games consoles.
You should do your research. DF just posted a video on this!
 

devilNprada

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You should do your research. DF just posted a video on this!

You should do your research a quick look on wikipedia will tell you PS4 price and appearance (along with other details) were revealed in June not February.
 
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Gavon West

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Microsoft outsmarted them how?
Sony wants to stick to that $399 price point which changes their next gen plans when it comes to hardware if they want have a more powerful box. No way they wanna ask gamers to pay a premium when the PS5 is weaker compared to the competition. That's aint good business. Market leader or no.
 

wolffy71

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I'm failing to see how the cooling fan of the PS is causing price overruns. So the cooling is usually under $1 and now its a few dollars. So the PS5 will cost, what, $3 more on this part but it keeps getting mentioned? What am I missing here?
 

Dabaus

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Microsoft outsmarted them how?

MS out smarted them by using the 2 prong apporach. A weaker less expenisve console and a high tech no holds barred console, which will probably be the same price as the weaker PS5. Its not an end of the world catastrophe for sony and i do think teraflops are over rated, but MS is going to gain alot of ground at least in the US because of this.
 

DeepEnigma

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Its funny how people try to compare luxuries to necessities.

A cell phone may be a necessity for a lot of people, and iPhone is a luxury of that lot. They have cheaper phones.

But regardless, it's a poor argument because they are either subsidized a bit, and most get on a payment plan in their contract and not buy them outright full price.
 
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DeepEnigma

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MS out smarted them by using the 2 prong apporach. A weaker less expenisve console and a high tech no holds barred console, which will probably be the same price as the weaker PS5. Its not an end of the world catastrophe for sony and i do think teraflops are over rated, but MS is going to gain alot of ground at least in the US because of this.

Must have missed all the announcements of specs and pricing.
 
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J3nga

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Your gaming console is as important to you as your mobile??
You'll probably find this hard to believe, but when I want to have a gaming session, it's shit ton a lot more important, and vice-versa when I wanna make a phone call. BTW, next time I'll play RDR2, I'll tell that English fella I found Gavin on Gaf.
 
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You should do your research. DF just posted a video on this!
I have not seen it, but DF is far from perfect in their analysis or takes on pretty much anything, they provide a flawed service, now I will go though what were your points (all based in false or incomplete assumptions).
You're forgetting a couple of nuggets of information here. 1) Sony is awfully quiet and they're absent 2 E3 pressers in a row. One, on the eve of perhaps the most important of any - next generation. 2) I whole heartedly doubt the budget for both Series X and PS5 are the same. One company can afford way more than the other.
1) Sony has always been more quiet than MS, they are just this confident, MS is more like a kid in need of attention, Sony act like a full grown adult who speak only when they have something to say
2) About your budget FUD argument, the same points were brought up the last time around (before and after launch), Ms will not let Sony have a 40% power advantage, then after launch, MS will buy its way into more optimized software (DX12/cloud) and the XB1 will run games better in the end... etc. If anything, Sony is in a much better position than the last time around, people are pretty happy with their PS4, the software output is great, etc.
Its hilarious how some of you miss the forest for the trees. Sony is in a pickle! That much can be said. They've just blatantly admitted that their waiting to see what Microsoft does before reveling the price of their new console. Since Sony entered the gaming industry they've always had price revealed in February with mass production starting in the Spring. Now, they wanna wait and see what their competitors do?
That pricing/reveal/production schedule just doesn't hold throughout the generations.... Even the PS4's price wasn't revealed until E3 (Summer), the first PlayStation had its american price revealed at E3 as well - there were no global console launches back in the days... in fact I think all playstations so far had their price revealed in the summer (at E3).

E3 is headed down the drain this year, for all we know it may never recover, this is why Sony is not going there.

And I cant wait to see how some of you justify the PS5 being at the same price as the Series X when the PS5 is the weaker system. Im expecting Sony to get a pass though. At least on this forum. Lol
We shall see, we have good reason to think that the consoles are in the same ballpark CPU/GPU wise, but Sony has some important IO advantage (not sure about the memory configuration). MS seems to have more or less expanded on the design they used in the X, so comparing may not be as straight forward as it was the last time around, unless the margins are big enough (>30%).

If either Sony or MS are to release consoles in November production for the main parts (the APU anyway) should have already started production late last year.
 

mckmas8808

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Sony wants to stick to that $399 price point which changes their next gen plans when it comes to hardware if they want have a more powerful box. No way they wanna ask gamers to pay a premium when the PS5 is weaker compared to the competition. That's aint good business. Market leader or no.

How do you know the PS5 is weaker than what MS has? We don't know anything yet.

MS out smarted them by using the 2 prong apporach. A weaker less expenisve console and a high tech no holds barred console, which will probably be the same price as the weaker PS5. Its not an end of the world catastrophe for sony and i do think teraflops are over rated, but MS is going to gain alot of ground at least in the US because of this.

Why do you guys think we know all of the facts? You don't feel weird speaking so definitely about stuff that hasn't been announced yet?
 
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DrAspirino

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Microsoft outsmarted them how?
By simply doing absolutely nothing. Sony shot itself in the foot when they priced the PS4 Pro at 399, hinting that they may price PS5 at that price point and sale the PS4 Pro at less once PS5 hit the shelves.

I just hope Sony gets its shit together and go back to its japanese roots. Same thing happened to Sega some years ago (the conflict between Sega America and Sega Japan) and it ended up becoming a 3rd party.
 
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Trogdor1123

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Personally I could afford the ps5 (or Xbox) at 500 or 600 but I'm not sure it will justify it's value at that price. Gotta wait to see those games and how they handle BC.

Might wait a year, first time I've ever done that.... Maybe I'm just old!
 
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mckmas8808

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By simply doing absolutely nothing. Sony shot itself in the foot when they priced the PS4 Pro at 399, hinting that they may price PS5 at that price point and sale the PS4 Pro at less once PS5 hit the shelves.

I just hope Sony gets its shit together and go back to its japanese roots. Same thing happened to Sega some years ago (the conflict between Sega America and Sega Japan) and it ended up becoming a 3rd party.

What makes you think they are truly having a hard time pricing the PS5 based on the original price of the PS4 Pro?
 

Justin9mm

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Personally I could afford the ps5 (or Xbox) at 500 or 600 but I'm not sure it will justify it's value at that price. Gotta wait to see those games and how they handle BC.

Might wait a year, first time I've ever done that.... Maybe I'm just old!
Why wait, it's like PS4 to PS4 Pro, everyone of your PS4 games are going to play better on a PS5 than the Pro. I don't understand what people don't get about this. This next gen is different to previous gens, the PS5 is basically just a hardware upgrade. You are already getting benefit from the performance of your existing PS4 games on the PS5.
 

darkinstinct

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The idea that XSX is not at 12 TF RDNA is so unbelievably stupid. Based on the APU size it would mean that they are running the GPU at 1.4 GHz for parity with Sony. Which is 300 Megahertz below the sweet spot for Navi. Of course they haven't confirmed a number. Because they don't know their final yields. They will probably be able to run at 1.8 GHz for 12.9 TF without problems. If Sony can run Navi at 2 Ghz, Microsoft can do the same, which would result in 14.3 TF. But they aren't that stupid. It's all about yields. Only few chips can actually run these speeds. And for a console selling 20 million a year, you want to use every chip you produce. Which is why Sony won't do 2 GHz either in the final version. Doing that means lower yields (= higher cost) and more cooling (= higher cost) and more power consumption (= higher cost).
 
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Investor9872

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Why wait, it's like PS4 to PS4 Pro, everyone of your PS4 games are going to play better on a PS5 than the Pro. I don't understand what people don't get about this. This next gen is different to previous gens, the PS5 is basically just a hardware upgrade. You are already getting benefit from the performance of your existing PS4 games on the PS5.

I'm waiting too. These next-gen systems will be powerful, so I want to see how they manage the thermals. I'll let them fix all the kinks out in a year's time before committing to purchase.
 
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pawel86ck

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It's funny how people buy $1000+ Iphone every year, but buying a console for $700 once a 4-7 years would just be unaccepted.
The vast majority of people who buy 500$+ phones are adults who have a work, therefore they can buy more expensive things without asking their parents. With consoles is a little bit different, because many young people play on consoles and they have to ask their parents for money.

I remember when I had to ask my parets for money, and back then even PS2 was expensive to me. However when I have started working I could buy 4x PS3 with my single salary and my perspective since then has changed. These consoles arent expensive if somone have a decent job. If people say 500$ is expensive than how someone like that will build a house (250 000 euro, equivalent to 500x consoles :p).