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Sony To Restructure Liverpool Studio (WipEout/Motorstorm), Halt Several Projects
- Thread starter Nirolak
- Start date
KennyLinder
Member
offshore said:
Yeah that's pretty much how it works. I believe EA used to work where profits from Need for Speed would help cover losses from other EA titles which lost money on their title. This doesn't happen anymore, and I am not sure any other developers (or any business really?) would do it either.
It would be nice to think that all the profits that games like Gran Turismo make could be shared out to help out the other studios, but then their overheads are astronomical so need all the profits they can get!
If it's true that Studio Liverpool did have around 100 employees prior the layoffs, then it is surprising that this downsizing didn't happen sooner. A 100 strong studio solely releasing PSN games that sell poorly makes zero financial sense to me.
EDIT: Thanks for answer Kenny.
EDIT: Thanks for answer Kenny.
NonexistentK
Member
nm
fortified_concept
Banned
Sony is pretty great with developers but when they fuck up they fuck up royally. Did it really have to be Psygnosis for god's sake? So far they've ruined them and the London studio that is forced to make party crap. I hope the trend doesn't continue because I'm pretty pissed right now since Wipeout is the only racing game I really liked this gen.
You need to know it exists to buy it though. Advertising would at least help to accomplish that. Doesn't matter now, people's jobs are gone and that's that.Kittonwy said:
I was commenting more on the second rate treatment downloadable titles get and not specifically Wipeout, by the way.
gundamkyoukai
Member
KennyLinder said:
Must really help PD when there demo sold near 4 million .
It always bad when people lose there jobs but as soon as hear they were going to be a merge i knew some people were going to losing there jobs, plus they so close to each other it made sense to put everyone together .
To bad for people that lose there jobs, hope things work out for them where they end up.
pretty sad news re the layoffs, and that this theard devolved into a MS v WO argument ..i mean WTF ..both are awesome ps3 racers, both are awesome ps3 games , period.
but i guess WO really had start to run it's course though .. i mean fury is incredble, but being DLC i guess the series wasn't as visable as i used to be. it's a shame woHD missed the ps3 slim boost as i feel both these series are wowfully underrated by the gaming press.
at least motorstorm is still around, and if it's getting a boost from the cream on the WO team then all the betetr for it.
hope we do see anter full scale wip3out in the future though.
but i guess WO really had start to run it's course though .. i mean fury is incredble, but being DLC i guess the series wasn't as visable as i used to be. it's a shame woHD missed the ps3 slim boost as i feel both these series are wowfully underrated by the gaming press.
at least motorstorm is still around, and if it's getting a boost from the cream on the WO team then all the betetr for it.
hope we do see anter full scale wip3out in the future though.
CadetMahoney
Member
offshore said:
anyone know what these titles are?
Elan tedronai
Banned
I think what this highlighted is that sony's biggest enemy as kittonwy said is ps3 owners. Not Nintendo or MS but those who currently own the black box.
I think it was about time this has finally caught up with Sony. I am starting to think sony will downsize alot of first party studios in the future. ANd concentrate on a few profitable ones. Less risky games like heavy rain will also ensue. sad but it's inevitable when you got a hugely unreliable useless ps3 install base.
I think it was about time this has finally caught up with Sony. I am starting to think sony will downsize alot of first party studios in the future. ANd concentrate on a few profitable ones. Less risky games like heavy rain will also ensue. sad but it's inevitable when you got a hugely unreliable useless ps3 install base.
painful fart
Member
Elan tedronai said:
Yeah Right! :lol
Elan tedronai said:
In Japan and the US, I don't see why they would, as most of the studios seem on solid footing - though I have no idea how Zipper is making money with MAG, giving that it's doing all that hosting 24/7...maybe PSN fees down the road will help.
Maybe KennyLinder could come to the rescue again, but Guerrilla aside, it's SCEE development houses that are pretty...interesting. Cambridge, London and Liverpool have been messed with, with people laid off, projects very publicly cancelled, put on hold or whatever. From the outside, there doesn't seem to be any real continuity.
Kittonwy said:
Of course it's Sony's fault. They're the ones that approved the project and budget, not the studios. If they approve something PS3 owners aren't interested in it doesn't matter how good you make the game. If the audience isn't into these games it's not the audience's fault they don't sell, but the people that ignored that.
Same thing with Uncharted. For example, dudebros are much more popular with the millions of kids that play videogames than characters like Drake and Elena. A war setting is preferable over an Indiana Jones adventure (and btw, how popular is Indiana Jones and similar movies these days?). Back in 2007/early 2008 Army of Two on PS3 outsold the original Uncharted.
Gary Whitta worked on Gears for a while and he said the original plans for the story in that game were much more interesting than what they did. And why did they scale back and did that ridiculous shit instead? Because that's what gamers are into. That's why gamers bought Army of Two over Uncharted: Drake's Fortune. It doesn't matter how good a game is if it's not what people want.
Of course, Sony is a first party. I don't think their job should be to simply make blockbuster titles, I'd rather see them expand the market for their platforms with more original ideas. You have EA and IW for your dudebro war games, you don't need more from Sony. In a perfect world they would be taking risks to expand their audience, which would then open a market for third parties to explore and increase the size of their installed base as a result. Wipeout itself is an interesting example: I'm sure it lead many people to sign up and start shopping at the PlayStation Store, which I would bet is exactly why Sony made it a PSN title. And while you blame PS3 owners for the results it's people at Sony making decisions and people at Liverpool losing their jobs.
TheThunder
Member
I hope that the people who laid off land on their feet.
UnblessedSoul
Member
Wipeout HD didn't sell that well because it took Sony far too long to get PSN cards out, since nobody wants to use a CC
yurinka
Member
More info in the Wipeout Zone forums:
Are you refering to the WOHD+Fury Blueray?
http://www.wipeoutzone.com/forum/showpost.php?p=165285&postcount=22Infoxicated said:
Who said it didn't sell? As I know there is no PSN sales numbers.UnblessedSoul said:
Are you refering to the WOHD+Fury Blueray?
Massa said:
If Sony doesn't approve niche projects and only approves mainstream dudebro projects, PS3 users will complain it's Sony's fault, if Sony approves niche projects and those projects fail and they can't afford to keep the studio open, PS3 users will also complain it's Sony's fault, you can't have it both ways. If Sony makes a game retail only, PS3 users complain they don't get real games on PSN, if Sony makes a game download only, PS3 users will complain they don't get a disk, if Sony makes a game available for both, PS3 users will complain about the pricing of the two skus, if Sony releases a DLC, PS3 users will complain that it's not free, if Sony releases a free DLC, PS3 users will complain about the content or the frequency of free content, there is no winning with the current userbase Sony is basically stuck with.
Games don't sell, studio will get closed, it's business, money doesn't grow on trees. If PS3 users don't want the games made by Liverpool enough to buy them, then they obviously don't want the studio to remain open either.
And yes, if Sony is smart they should figure out what sells 5-10 mil and stick to that and that only, because as MW2 demonstrated yes it's nice to have all these other different games to fill all those niches but at the end of the day PS3 users will stick to what's popular. If Sony is REALLY smart, they should shift their focus to an audience that is much more brand-loyal and much easier to satisfy in terms of game quality or variety.
so much crap talking in this thread - its ridiculous.
after losing the formula 1 and wrc license and purchasing evo there was no need for two racing game studios in europe anymore. especially when your biggest selling racing game is not made by them (gran turismo).
wipeout hd was a success because it was a test bed for the psn store. and whats up with the niche talk? wipeout was once a real big franchise in europe. and they tried to reanimate it with the psp.
after losing the formula 1 and wrc license and purchasing evo there was no need for two racing game studios in europe anymore. especially when your biggest selling racing game is not made by them (gran turismo).
wipeout hd was a success because it was a test bed for the psn store. and whats up with the niche talk? wipeout was once a real big franchise in europe. and they tried to reanimate it with the psp.
ram said:
Its not like the people @liverpool studios has only capable of making racing games.
They' are first of all talented and experienced people, something rare and precious in this industry and being so I'm sure they will find another teams to join.
Or at least I wish them so.
Baki
Member
Kittonwy said:
Yes, having poerful 1st party IP is the key to having more loyal consumer base. This is because 1st Party IP will always be in your hands and also means you will never be at the mercy of 3rd partys.
That said, 5-10M selling games are a dime a dozen. From this generation, there are only two exclusives on HD consoles that have managed this.
Gears of War and Halo.
Elan tedronai
Banned
Baki said:
you forgot MGS4
This didnt work in some European countries, you cant use a debit card in the German Store for example and getting a CC here isnt as easy as in the USA.Melchiah said:
Really sucks to hear about all that stuff, WipEout HD with its Fury expension is one of the best games this generation in many aspects.
Wow, its a shame to hear such news but then again if there is hardly anything being produced then it was only a matter of time. Wipeout HD (+Fury) is been one of my favorite racers this gen. I personally think the franchise has so much potential. I don't know what the PSN numbers are, I'm assuming solid enough but on the flipside there was never much active advertisement on the game itself as a whole so it could be another reason why it didn't get the attention it could have.
Scootydowopp
Banned
Sorry to hear that Wipeout might be done. It was the first game my cousin showed me when he had his original playstation way back in 1997.
But, it can't be surprising. Many people love to crow about the breadth of their first party stable, but the more horses you have in the stable the more coin you need for their upkeep.
And if none of those horses are bringing in boku bucks at the races and the one surefire you do have is constantly being retested on his leaps and gait(GT))but never entered, something is going to give.
Its a problem of bloat.
And to the cat guy.....its not the fault of the consumer. If the product you're putting out isn't to the tastes of the market, change the product. Or be satisfied with lesser sales power. Either scale back production costs so they're inline with the likely sales figures, or start from scratch.
I don't have a ps3 yet, but i plan on getting one soon. Primarily for bluray and then games wise for Ueda's LG. Are you saying its my fault that none of the products sonys put out thus far stir me? Uncharted, GOW, Wipeout,MS, etc. Not to my tastes, but when they do release something i see necessary they get my money.
Once again, sorry to hear about the closing.
But, it can't be surprising. Many people love to crow about the breadth of their first party stable, but the more horses you have in the stable the more coin you need for their upkeep.
And if none of those horses are bringing in boku bucks at the races and the one surefire you do have is constantly being retested on his leaps and gait(GT))but never entered, something is going to give.
Its a problem of bloat.
And to the cat guy.....its not the fault of the consumer. If the product you're putting out isn't to the tastes of the market, change the product. Or be satisfied with lesser sales power. Either scale back production costs so they're inline with the likely sales figures, or start from scratch.
I don't have a ps3 yet, but i plan on getting one soon. Primarily for bluray and then games wise for Ueda's LG. Are you saying its my fault that none of the products sonys put out thus far stir me? Uncharted, GOW, Wipeout,MS, etc. Not to my tastes, but when they do release something i see necessary they get my money.
Once again, sorry to hear about the closing.
Dra-Q said:
yeah , not only that , PSN cards are still Not Widely Available everywhere ( not talking just about US of A or Just UK empire ) unlike Microsoft or Nintendo point cards , and PSN stores are region locked for CC , add that tons of countries still don't have their PS stores yet ( like my country where local store don't sell PSN cards nor I can use my CC on any PS store) , it's a huge fucked up situation after more than 3 years of PS3 release.
StealthGoblin
Banned
Doubledex said:
They did much more than make big games though. They were the contact point for EU PSN developers. They shipped Wipeout HD, one of the best looking games of the generation, whereas Cambridge have done sod all.
StealthGoblin
Banned
Massa said:
Singstars been raking in the cash though. Europeans love it.
Dude, don't tell me what Studio Liverpool did in the past. I know it maybe better then anyone elese here. They weren't productive and got closed.Galvanise_ said:
80% of these guys here flaming against SONY give a rat shit about SL. It's just one "buh buh buh SONY bad and evil buh buh".
It was a business decision. Just like Microsoft and Ensemble Studios (btw. Ensemble Studio was productive. I still can't believe it ;-( ) etc.
I feel sorry for these guys. I know some of them (they are good friends). But they are good, very good... and they will get new jobs. That's for sure.
StealthGoblin
Banned
Doubledex said:
I know what you meant man. I understand the logic, but I'm totally gutted. Studio Liverpool were UK Playstation to me. I understand things come and go, but it's just a real shame.
P.S Totally with you on Ensemble Studios. I was shocked.
Death Dealer
Member
I don't think the Wipeout franchise is dead. The game sold well enough to merit a DLC expansion. They practically gave the game away to promote PSN. To this day, it was my best purchase/value in a PSN game.
IMO they should have gone down the retail priced blu ray route. Release the polished Wipeout HD Fury, with heavy promotion, from the beginning.
But I think they had their reasons. I'm sure we'll see a sequel next gen. I hope all the major players in the franchise return if given the offer.
IMO they should have gone down the retail priced blu ray route. Release the polished Wipeout HD Fury, with heavy promotion, from the beginning.
But I think they had their reasons. I'm sure we'll see a sequel next gen. I hope all the major players in the franchise return if given the offer.
Warm Machine
Member
The staff size on a digital download Wipeout game should be around 15 tops. Anything more than that is overkill. Wipeout HD could have easily been made with a staff that size.
If a 15 person team took 1 year at an average salary of 80k including overhead then they would burn 1.2 million a year. At $10 a copy they would need to sell 120k copies to break even and probably more to cover marketing costs, servers, and patches.
You can't tell me that a game that has next to no characters, no animation, no cinematics, only licensed music, a few tracks, and a few vehicle models needs more people or could not be made in a years time.
Wipeout should be a license to print money, even though since XL it hasn't been a huge release. There are enough hardcores who could support a far leaner development.
If a 15 person team took 1 year at an average salary of 80k including overhead then they would burn 1.2 million a year. At $10 a copy they would need to sell 120k copies to break even and probably more to cover marketing costs, servers, and patches.
You can't tell me that a game that has next to no characters, no animation, no cinematics, only licensed music, a few tracks, and a few vehicle models needs more people or could not be made in a years time.
Wipeout should be a license to print money, even though since XL it hasn't been a huge release. There are enough hardcores who could support a far leaner development.
Okay seriously; they are NOT CLOSING DOWN. If the estimates are accurate, around half of the developers have been made redundant. As I've said, they are hiring QA staff, so it is likely that is the direction the studio will take. The remaining developers will be moved to smaller projects or assisting other studios - WipeOut could quite easily return some point in the future, just not until Sony's wares improve. That said, it is highly unfortunate that this was the best course of action deemed by Sony's higher ups and I wish those made redundant all the best for the future 