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Sony vs Geohot Part 1000 - Groklaw summarizes some recent developments

Zomba13

Member
graywolf323 said:
I seem to remember having to agree to a new TOS with every new firmware and the PSN TOS changes even

reading through that Groklaw does not come across as even remotely unbiased and objective in all of this
What if he didn't update them? The aledged PSN account was before a change in the TOS so if he hadn't updated then he would have never seen the newer TOS. That is if the account was even his.

EDIT: Also, it's been driving me mad. What does this 'eat crow' expression mean and where did it come from? Is it a new American thing or new internet thing or what?
 

Curufinwe

Member
chubigans said:
Pretty much. You can trust Hotz's lawyer briefs just as much as you can trust Sony's.

The damning stuff from the last thread, at least to me, were the complaints from the neutral third party developer over the components geohot removed from his hard drives before he turned them over.
 
So why are we posting lawyer and plaintiff/defendant talk like it's fact?

Sure, Sony is being a bunch of dicks, but it's not like the defendant is being an angel himself.

Hard Drive controller cards... really? That's just being facetious and annoying.
 

squatingyeti

non-sanctioned troll
The Sony supporters have basically said, "we can ignore this because it's from Hotz's lawyers, but as soon as Sony said something, it was true". Amazing line of thinking. Even coming from Hotz's attorney, there are obvious things which he can't really bend. Like Sony accusing Hotz of having one account and trying to convince the judge that was him. Then, claiming he is actually another account which they have absolutely no proof of.

How about making the documents they give over for discovery impossible to OCR? I can't believe how quickly so many people jumped on Hotz when Sony said something, but if it's the other way around, there's nothing to see.
 

blu

Wants the largest console games publisher to avoid Nintendo's platforms.
I still wonder though, if the highly skilled forensic professionals at TIG managed to read anything from those tampered drives. And why did they not ask for Hotz' kbd, for Pete's sake? I, for one, can't operate a computer without a kbd.
 

darkpower

Banned
phosphor112 said:
Hard Drive controller cards... really? That's just being facetious and annoying.

But those were sent, though, so you could say also that it was miscommunication that led to that, as well.

This is saying that Sony has done a lot MORE to sabotage this case than they accused Hotz of doing.
 

Evlar

Banned
squatingyeti said:
The Sony supporters have basically said, "we can ignore this because it's from Hotz's lawyers, but as soon as Sony said something, it was true". Amazing line of thinking. Even coming from Hotz's attorney, there are obvious things which he can't really bend. Like Sony accusing Hotz of having one account and trying to convince the judge that was him. Then, claiming he is actually another account which they have absolutely no proof of.

How about making the documents they give over for discovery impossible to OCR? I can't believe how quickly so many people jumped on Hotz when Sony said something, but if it's the other way around, there's nothing to see.
Bullshit. I'm not a "Sony supporter". And I accepted the primary claims in the last thread because everyone involved agreed on them. The neutral third party, Sony's lawyers, and Hotz's lawyers all agreed that 1) He had provided the hard drives without controller cards, and 2) he was out of the country when the neutral third party asked for them after first attempting to image the drives. (Actually, the third party didn't agree with that last one, because they had nothing to do with that exchange).
 

test_account

XP-39C²
I hope that this case will come to some conclusion soon. Now, to me it seems to be more about smaller (perhaps kinda useless) things just to establish a stronger case. I understand if these things are important to build up a case, but i hope that there will be some conclusions soon about the laws Sony mean he has broken.


Datschge said:
I'm not sure why so many think it's unbelievable for someone to not know SCEA and that they are located in California. I mean, sure, Sony should have some American subsidiary, but I likely wouldn't know that the one behind video games is called SCEA if I weren't visiting boards like this one. Any of you ever looked at how many different subsidiaries Sony actually has?
I agree, but Geohot isnt just "some guy" though. I would be very surprised if he didnt knew what SCEA was concidering the knowledge he has about PS3.
 

JWong

Banned
darkpower said:
But those were sent, though, so you could say also that it was miscommunication that led to that, as well.

This is saying that Sony has done a lot MORE to sabotage this case than they accused Hotz of doing.
Sent by who? Hotz while he was in South America?
 

Curufinwe

Member
Evlar said:
Perhaps before you post up these giant blocks of quoted text with bolded sections you could clarify, for the GAF public who aren't going to click on your link or won't know what they're looking at when they do, that the document you are quoting from is a brief by Hotz's lawyer.

I note that the OP still has not been edited to make this clear.
 

darkpower

Banned
JWong said:
Sent by who? Hotz while he was in South America?

Can't remember what document/letter it was (I think it was the IGN article that featured the rebuttal), but those controller cards were sent somehow, according to that.

Bottom line is that they have them now.

Curufinwe said:
I note that the OP still has not been edited to make this clear.

Umm...click that link. It's pretty clear what it is. Not exactly our fault if people don't actually read anything.
 

JWong

Banned
darkpower said:
Can't remember what document/letter it was (I think it was the IGN article that featured the rebuttal), but those controller cards were sent somehow, according to that.

Bottom line is that they have them now.
Sounds like a delaying tactic by Hotz lawyers. They openly stated that the controller cards couldn't be sent because Hotz was out of the country.

Bottom line, lawyers are dirty.
 

squatingyeti

non-sanctioned troll
Curufinwe said:
I note that the OP still has not been edited to make this clear.

Actually, the OP has been edited since I am now responsible for people posting in a thread without EVER reading EITHER of the links. No one sees something wrong with that? I'm pretty sure you're supposed to at least check a link before waxing philosophical.
 

gokieks

Member
squatingyeti said:
The Sony supporters have basically said, "we can ignore this because it's from Hotz's lawyers, but as soon as Sony said something, it was true". Amazing line of thinking. Even coming from Hotz's attorney, there are obvious things which he can't really bend. Like Sony accusing Hotz of having one account and trying to convince the judge that was him. Then, claiming he is actually another account which they have absolutely no proof of.

How about making the documents they give over for discovery impossible to OCR? I can't believe how quickly so many people jumped on Hotz when Sony said something, but if it's the other way around, there's nothing to see.

So what you want is for there to be people on both "sides" to be spewing unhelpful and uninformed knew-jerk responses based only on poor reading comprehension of one-sided OPs? Because two wrongs make a right?
 

test_account

XP-39C²
darkpower said:
But those were sent, though, so you could say also that it was miscommunication that led to that, as well.

This is saying that Sony has done a lot MORE to sabotage this case than they accused Hotz of doing.
I dont see why someone would ask for harddrives without the controller cards still attached to them, especially when it is about searching the drives for evidence. It is probably not impossible that the wording wasnt 100% specific that the controller cards should be included, but i think everyone knew that they should be included. But yes, the controller cards are delivered now indeed as you say. I wonder if this will affect the case, by not delivering them at first.
 

shintoki

sparkle this bitch
Threi said:
I've said it in every thread and i'll say it again: this would make a great movie.
Anime cartoon in the style of YuGiOh. You know it'd be awesome. You can make up an infinite number of trap cards!
 

itxaka

Defeatist
OMG this is from geoshtzel lawyer? Then is all lies! Unless it comes from Sony lawyers I won't believe it!

Le sigh.
 

darkpower

Banned
test_account said:
I dont see why someone would ask for harddrives without the controller cards still attached to them, especially when it is about searching the drives for evidence. It is probably not impossible that the wording wasnt 100% specific that the controller cards should be included, but i think everyone knew that they should be included. But yes, the controller cards are delivered now indeed as you say. I wonder if this will affect the case, by not delivering them at first.

I'm not saying it could or couldn't happen. I pointed it out because there is reasonable doubt there that he was trying to sabotage the case because of that alone.

Hotz' lawyers, though, have a NUMBER of things in there that they are saying Sony has done in a deliberate attempt to sabotage the case in their own favor.
 

squatingyeti

non-sanctioned troll
test_account said:
I dont see why someone would ask for harddrives without the controller cards still attached to them, especially when it is about searching the drives for evidence. It is probably not impossible that the wording wasnt 100% specific that the controller cards should be included, but i think everyone knew that they should be included. But yes, the controller cards are delivered now as you say. I wonder if this will affect the case, by not delivering them at first.

What people still don't get is this is still about jurisdiction. Sony, as pointed out by Hotz's attorney, is attempting to use discovery to gather information that has nothing to do with jurisdiction. They will find NOTHING on the computers that would give California jurisdiction. Their original claim was the SDK could be on the computer which had info which would indicate something about SCEA. The reality was that the SDK does NOT contain such information.

At a hearing with Judge Spero, SCEA said it needed to search Mr. Hotz’s hard drives for a Software Developer’s Kit (“SDK”) because, they claimed, it contains information that SCEA is in California. Dkt. No. 93, 10-12. Judge Spero ordered the parties to meet and confer and submit a joint letter by March 16. Order Dkt. No. 96 3:16-18. SCEA refused to meet in person regarding the letter. Once Mr. Hotz’s counsel discovered the SDK does not contain what SCEA stated, Mr. Hotz sought to bring this matter to the Court’s attention in the joint letter. To prejudice Mr. Hotz’s position, SCEA refused to timely provide its portion of the letter, preventing Mr. Hotz from rebutting its arguments. Dkt. 99. SCEA’s bad faith acts caused the March 16 letter to be delayed. Id. SCEA is not in a position to vilify Mr. Hotz when it is SCEA that continues to proceed in bad faith.
 

Proxy

Member
Inanna said:
What? Where? I haven't even seen or read anything about this case directly from Sony, either on their forums or official websites.

That's my point. However, if the OP has proof of SCEA's PR campaign against Mr. Hotz I would love to see it.
 

poppabk

Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
squatingyeti said:
The Sony supporters have basically said, "we can ignore this because it's from Hotz's lawyers, but as soon as Sony said something, it was true". Amazing line of thinking. Even coming from Hotz's attorney, there are obvious things which he can't really bend. Like Sony accusing Hotz of having one account and trying to convince the judge that was him. Then, claiming he is actually another account which they have absolutely no proof of.

How about making the documents they give over for discovery impossible to OCR? I can't believe how quickly so many people jumped on Hotz when Sony said something, but if it's the other way around, there's nothing to see.
Hotz's attorneys confirmed what the third party analysis firm stated about the missing control cards.
 
Evlar said:
Bullshit. I'm not a "Sony supporter". And I accepted the primary claims in the last thread because everyone involved agreed on them. The neutral third party, Sony's lawyers, and Hotz's lawyers all agreed that 1) He had provided the hard drives without controller cards, and 2) he was out of the country when the neutral third party asked for them after first attempting to image the drives. (Actually, the third party didn't agree with that last one, because they had nothing to do with that exchange).
Now watch as Gehotz supporters and the OP ignore this post.
 

UFRA

Member
itxaka said:
OMG this is from geoshtzel lawyer? Then is all lies! Unless it comes from Sony lawyers I won't believe it!

Le sigh.

I think the main point we can all take from this is that we should read it with a grain of salt, just like we'd do with Sony's comments.

Sony's objective is to make gehot look bad, and geohot's objective is to make Sony look bad.

I know it's shocking to hear that, but this is how legal battles work. I really don't care about reading stuff like this, I will only care when it's over and we know the results of the case.
 

squatingyeti

non-sanctioned troll
poppabk said:
Hotz's attorneys confirmed what the third party analysis firm stated about the missing control cards.

and the controller cards were provided. It is however, ok for Sony to alter documents to avoid them being able to OCR them? How about claiming things they know not to be true to get Hotz's hard drives? What about withholding documents from discovery? All of those things Sony has done, but people want to ignore. And again, this is NOT the actual case, just about jurisdiction.

The original thread title said AKA Glass house throws stones. Is that not understood? Sony said Hotz was doing stuff to slow the case and this points out Sony has done just as much, if not more.
 
Datschge said:
I see four different names alone in that short span of the boot up...
=?... can you count?
1). Sony Computer Entertainment tm.
2). Playstation
3). Sony Computer Entertainment America (SCEA)

looks like 4 to me. Anyway, this video is irrelevant (as awesome as it is), it doesn't pertain to the situation we have now.
 

Nairume

Banned
UFRA said:
I think the main point we can all take from this is that we should read it with a grain of salt, just like we'd do with Sony's comments.
Thing is, this really didn't happen with the thread on Sony's comments. The minute that there was word that he "tampered with evidence" and "fled the country", the thread exploded with people instantly assuming that to be the case, encouraging Sony to financially ruin him, and, in what was probably the second biggest case of fanboy immaturity that I've ever seen, mocking the people who donated to Geohots cause.
 

mclem

Member
You haven't actually latched on to what I think is the most interesting part of the missive:

Attached hereto as Exhibit F is a true and correct copy of a Business Agreement between Sony Japan ("SCEI") and SCEA. The document was produced by SCEA on February 24 at 8:12pm. The Agreement contains acknowledgments by SCEA that SCEI is the owner of all rights in the Playstation 3 system and related IP rights.

Given that a significant chunk of this case is about whether SCEA has the *right* to pursue it, I think that's probably pretty important.
 

itxaka

Defeatist
UFRA said:
I think the main point we can all take from this is that we should read it with a grain of salt, just like we'd do with Sony's comments.

Sony's objective is to make gehot look bad, and geohot's objective is to make Sony look bad.

I know it's shocking to hear that, but this is how legal battles work. I really don't care about reading stuff like this, I will only care when it's over and we know the results of the case.


Totally agreed. After all, a lawyer job is 50% of discrediting the other side and 50% of lies. I should know, my GF is a lawyer :p
 
phosphor112 said:
=?... can you count/
1). Sony Computer Entertainment tm.
2). Playstation
3). Sony Computer Entertainment America (SCEA)

looks like 4 to me. Anyway, this video is irrelevant (as awesome as it is), it doesn't pertain to the situation we have now.

The point really was to show that GeoHot would have to work very hard to not know that SCEA exists and that they are associated with the Playstation. However I'm just banging on again so no bother.
 

mclem

Member
darkpower said:
Unless this judge is in Sony's back pocket, he's going to consider how dodgy Sony has been with the LG thing, the OtherOS suit, and in the past with the CD rootkit that caused so many problems a few years ago, and then see which story makes more sense.

Wouldn't that be prejudice?
 

squatingyeti

non-sanctioned troll
Nairume said:
Thing is, this really didn't happen with the thread on Sony's comments. The minute that there was word that he "tampered with evidence" and "fled the country", the thread exploded with people instantly assuming that to be the case, encouraging Sony to financially ruin him, and, in what was probably the second biggest case of fanboy immaturity that I've ever seen, mocking the people who donated to Geohots cause.


DING DING DING!
 

mclem

Member
squatingyeti said:
How about making the documents they give over for discovery impossible to OCR? I can't believe how quickly so many people jumped on Hotz when Sony said something, but if it's the other way around, there's nothing to see.

To be fair, I believe that is *not* "making the documents they give over for discovery impossible to OCR" as much as it is "having a document which is impossible to OCR which they gave over to discovery".
 

gokieks

Member
Nairume said:
Thing is, this really didn't happen with the thread on Sony's comments. The minute that there was word that he "tampered with evidence" and "fled the country", the thread exploded with people instantly assuming that to be the case, encouraging Sony to financially ruin him, and, in what was probably the second biggest case of fanboy immaturity that I've ever seen, mocking the people who donated to Geohots cause.

Again, two wrongs don't make a right. For people who complain about knee-jerk anti-GeoHot posts based on Sony's lawyers' statements to make knee-jerk anti-Sony posts based on GeoHot's lawyers statements would be the height of hypocrisy.

Anyone whose opinions on the whole ordeal are actually worth listening to will know that statements in filings from both sides need to be taken with a giant grain of salt.
 

poppabk

Cheeks Spread for Digital Only Future
squatingyeti said:
and the controller cards were provided. It is however, ok for Sony to alter documents to avoid them being able to OCR them? How about claiming things they know not to be true to get Hotz's hard drives? What about withholding documents from discovery? All of those things Sony has done, but people want to ignore. And again, this is NOT the actual case, just about jurisdiction.

The original thread title said AKA Glass house throws stones. Is that not understood? Sony said Hotz was doing stuff to slow the case and this points out Sony has done just as much, if not more.
No it isn't ok for Sony to deliberately alter documents to make them difficult to scan and read by OCR. If Sony confirms that they did this then they are definitely in the wrong and hurting their case. However, Sony's case is as much about bringing inconvenience and monetary loss to Hotz as it is winning monetary damages, and therefore they can't really lose. Hotz on the other hand is just screwing himself by his antics.
 

Chalex

Neo Member
Zomba13 said:
What if he didn't update them? The aledged PSN account was before a change in the TOS so if he hadn't updated then he would have never seen the newer TOS. That is if the account was even his.

EDIT: Also, it's been driving me mad. What does this 'eat crow' expression mean and where did it come from? Is it a new American thing or new internet thing or what?

Geohotz had already previously admitted to updating firmwares himself claiming that he had got them on a pc from a a nonofficial source so he wouldn't need to agree to an EULA/TOS ignoring the fact that it still pops up and makes you agree to it prior to installation.
 

Dambrosi

Banned
Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand here we go again.

Just more proof that the American legal system needs to be changed, and quickly. Not even the law itself, just the system that exists to enforce it.

That said, this is just a summary of Geohot's lawyer's brief. Hardly the most reliable or balanced source to take as gospel. However, if the allegations about Sony's misuse of court procedure is true (and bear in mind that they're still only arguing about jurisdiction, not the actual case itself), this could be a very nasty case indeed.

As for the whole "Geohot didn't know SCEA existed" thing, surely that's just pointing out that, since nothing about SCEA regarding the machine or its firmware can be found on the outside packaging of retail PS3s (and, indeed, since there is an agreement between SCEI and SCEA which denies SCEA's claim of ownership over PS3 firmwares):

Attached hereto as Exhibit F is a true and correct copy of a Business Agreement between Sony Japan ("SCEI") and SCEA. The document was produced by SCEA on February 24 at 8:12pm. The Agreement contains acknowledgments by SCEA that SCEI is the owner of all rights in the Playstation 3 system and related IP rights.
and since he did not read the instruction book that came with his PS3 (as proven by the bag it's in still being sealed), that there is a reasonable chance that he might not have seen any mention of SCEA when he first opened and set up his console. That doesn't mean that he didn't know about them beforehand, or didn't read some other instruction book, or whatever the anti-Geohot crowd might counter with, just that he didn't see any mention of SCEA on the PS3 packaging, and can therefore say that he'd never heard of SCEA without anyone being able to prove otherwise. I think. Boy, that was long, and stupid, but that's how legal mumbo-jumbo works.

On the Hard Drive issue: SquatingYeti said it best.

SquatingYeti said:
What people still don't get is this is still about jurisdiction. Sony, as pointed out by Hotz's attorney, is attempting to use discovery to gather information that has nothing to do with jurisdiction. They will find NOTHING on the computers that would give California jurisdiction. Their original claim was the SDK could be on the computer which had info which would indicate something about SCEA. The reality was that the SDK does NOT contain such information.
So what does it matter if Geohot sent the third-party forensics lab incomplete hard drives (assuming he did, according to the original request) if the whole request was just a Sony misdirection tactic in the first place?

Proxy: You haven't seen all the fanthings spouting falsehoods and FUD about PS3 homebrew on this and other forums for the last few months? Really?

I guess that, in the end, though, UFRA is correct on this whole affair:

UFRA said:
I think the main point we can all take from this is that we should read it with a grain of salt, just like we'd do with Sony's comments.

Sony's objective is to make gehot look bad, and geohot's objective is to make Sony look bad.

I know it's shocking to hear that, but this is how legal battles work. I really don't care about reading stuff like this, I will only care when it's over and we know the results of the case.
 

darkpower

Banned
gokieks said:
Again, two wrongs don't make a right. For people who complain about knee-jerk anti-GeoHot posts based on Sony's lawyers' statements to make knee-jerk anti-Sony posts based on GeoHot's lawyers statements would be the height of hypocrisy.

Anyone whose opinions on the whole ordeal are actually worth listening to will know that statements in filings from both sides need to be taken with a giant grain of salt.

Which one is more plausible, though?

Sony claimed Hotz fled when it was clear what he did (the courts even knew where he was going before), and that everything that he was asked to turn over, even the CCs, were.

Hotz' lawyers is claiming that Sony tampered with documents, kept things concealed, went behind their backs, et al.

Hotz doesn't have a history of tampering with things or resorting to dirty tactics to win cases. Sony has done everything in their power in the past to win court cases and locking things down.

Who are you going to believe first? Someone who has no history of dodging anyone, or someone who has the history?
 
darkpower said:
Unless this judge is in Sony's back pocket, he's going to consider how dodgy Sony has been with the LG thing, the OtherOS suit, and in the past with the CD rootkit that caused so many problems a few years ago, and then see which story makes more sense.


Errr... a good judge makes a ruling based on evidence presented relative to the current litigation, not dredging up a bunch of other shit that may or may not be even tangentially related to current arguments.
 
squatingyeti said:
DING DING DING!
Those who came to the conclusion that Geo fled are stupid. It's a civil case. The thing is, just because those idiots came to that conclusion, it doesn't mean you can spread misinformation as well. I see the same mentality showing up over and over again from you.

To paraphrase. "Geohot should win because Sony took away other OS."
Errm.. no. Sony did a wrong by taking away other OS, and Geo did a wrong by hacking and publishing all the data to the world. As someone said already, "Two wrongs don't make a right." No matter how many times that phrase is echoed, it doesn't seem to stick inside your head.

Oh, and we are all allowed to have our bias, including you and me, but no need to take lawyer mumbo jumbo as fact when you're trying to make a hot case for Geo.

darkpower said:
Which one is more plausible, though?

Sony claimed Hotz fled when it was clear what he did (the courts even knew where he was going before), and that everything that he was asked to turn over, even the CCs, were.

Hotz' lawyers is claiming that Sony tampered with documents, kept things concealed, went behind their backs, et al.

Hotz doesn't have a history of tampering with things or resorting to dirty tactics to win cases. Sony has done everything in their power in the past to win court cases and locking things down.

Who are you going to believe first? Someone who has no history of dodging anyone, or someone who has the history?

Sony never claimed he fled. Idiots did. All parties knew he was going on a vacation before he left, the problem was when he didn't have the controller PCB's on the HDD's. Since he was out of the country, getting him to give those over would be a hassle, thus disrupting the allotted timeline.
 

alr1ght

bish gets all the credit :)
Nairume said:
Thing is, this really didn't happen with the thread on Sony's comments. The minute that there was word that he "tampered with evidence" and "fled the country", the thread exploded with people instantly assuming that to be the case, encouraging Sony to financially ruin him, and, in what was probably the second biggest case of fanboy immaturity that I've ever seen, mocking the people who donated to Geohots cause.

Umm, Sony never said he "fled" the country. The OP of that thread did.

The third party imaging his HDDs requested the parts needed to examine them, and were told "As you know, he's out of the country and can't provide you with the parts."

Terribly misleading thread title doesn't make it true.
 

Proxy

Member
Dambrosi said:
Proxy: You haven't seen all the fanthings spouting falsehoods and FUD about PS3 homebrew on this and other forums for the last few months? Really?:

Really is SCEA paying these "fanthings"? Because otherwise, I fail to see how your assertion means SCEA is engaging in a PR campaign.
 
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