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[EekTheKat]

I really liked

Spoiler

Spider Punk

in this movie That gag that the writers set up with him had a great payoff.

Spoiler

In a high tension scene where Miles is locked up in a force field the camera pans over to Spider Punk making a gesture with him palms. A near perfect payoff for a setup earlier in the movie.

The instant he made that gesture the audience knew what was coming. A nice simple setup with a payoff that kept the main thread of the movie moving.

.

 

[aclar00]

Spoiler

I feel like they’re going to end up teaming up and fight spot together

Spoiler

That's possible, but i also see the Prowler as being the epitome of Miles not giving a shit about who's in his way. He's not going to let anyone prevent him from saving his dad, including himself, so to speak. At this point, we also dont know if the Prowler is a good or bad guy though. May be an anti-hero

 

[jason10mm]

I really liked

Spoiler

Spider Punk

in this movie That gag that the writers set up with him had a great payoff.

Spoiler

In a high tension scene where Miles is locked up in a force field the camera pans over to Spider Punk making a gesture with him palms. A near perfect payoff for a setup earlier in the movie.

The instant he made that gesture the audience knew what was coming. A nice simple setup with a payoff that kept the main thread of the movie moving.

.

Yeeeeees, that is the sort of stuff a lot of modern writing (or editing) skip over these days. We need proper foreshadowing of power sets to help explain what they can do, give us an idea of the stakes, and reduce the "deus ex machina" feel to a lot of comic book finales.

Skip that stuff and the ending when the heroine flies through an entire battleship as if it were tissue paper feels hollow and weightless, just cgi spectacle.

 

[Doom85]

Yeeeeees, that is the sort of stuff a lot of modern writing (or editing) skip over these days. We need proper foreshadowing of power sets to help explain what they can do, give us an idea of the stakes, and reduce the "deus ex machina" feel to a lot of comic book finales.

Skip that stuff and the ending when the heroine flies through an entire battleship as if it were tissue paper feels hollow and weightless, just cgi spectacle.

It still happens sometimes, Dr. Strange 2 had a pretty awesome set up for how Strange powers himself up for the final battle.

 

[YCoCg]

Fuck this was soo good visually and design wise, my only complaint is that it suffers from middle film syndrome where the back half is just setting up the plot for the third.

 

[newtypepilot]

visually this movie is 10/10. Amazing animation and love the various art styles used. Story wise they tried to cram in too many things at once, but because the back half of the movie is spent setting up the next sequel, nothing really gets resolved. 2hr 20min runtime doesn't help either.

 

[NahaNago]

This movie was good to great at times. Visually the movie was all over the place. It had so many different styles that looked great at times and other times made me think wtf. Seeing all these different spidermen made me want short series/seasons covering quite a few of them.

I did enjoy the movie. From pure enjoyment Id rate it a 10 out of 10. The visuals while odd at times was 10 out of 10. The music doesn't quite hit as hard this time around and that end credits song just saps all the enthusiasm you had at the end of the movie.

While I did enjoy this movie a lot more than the previous one I don't feel like it was a better made movie. The last movie felt like it was completely thought out and wanted to make the best movie possible but this movie was like hey why don't we do this and put this in there too and it will be awesome and it was awesome.

 

[Revolutionary]

It's a very good movie... until the third act where it kinda falls apart with the whole Miles vs 100 Spideys... I just can't suspend my disbelief enough for that one, because apparently every Spider-Man but Miles is a giant fucking idiot. Also, Miles comes off as incredibly selfish, which makes it easy to sympathize with Miguel

That said, it does get mildly interesting again once you realize Miles went back to the wrong dimension... but then you realize there isn't enough time to resolve this new revelation, and that it's sequel bait. Meh.... like I said, not a bad movie, but the first is superior in nearly every way.

7/10

 

[DeafTourette]

I loved every minute of this movie. I saw it in 4DX so it was a RIDE! All the emotional beats hit as they were supposed to ... Miguel's design had me feeling a different way about him because he is huge... Like a slightly smaller Hulk.

Hobie Brown was a revelation! Gwen was heartbreaking. Jessica Drew was a little too hard ass...

The best characters TO ME were Peter B, Rio and Jefferson. They made me cry at certain points. No spoilers but yeah... TO ME they were the soft heartbeats of the movie.

 

[Lambogenie]

I enjoyed it, but felt it was a little long. Some of Mile's more personal scenes started to drag. Miguel was great (who I never really got into in the comics), and interesting they never once refer to him as Spider-Man 2099 other than showing the #1 cover, I think?
The end reminded me of Kingdom Hearts Birth by Sleep's revelation of Venatus; I liked it, if not predictable.

Spider-Punk was pretty good, surprisingly, and have always felt him to be a meh guy whenever he's appeared in the comics.

Social politics smatterings (#blm) and potential allegories made me roll my eyes, though, but the comics do this too to be fair! Seeing ResetEra take things full down that road is unsurprising.

Overall, other than the length, it was good. Not as good as the first, but still a high quality movie, and I'll definitely be there for the sequel.

Oh, actually, I'm kinda salty how they treated Ben Reilly's Scarlet Spider. It was funny the first time, but then that was his whole thing. Rude...

 

[touchfuzzy]

I think they might've overdone it with the art style this time. I was almost laughing toward the end there's a big emotional scene with Gwen and her dad and every time the camera cuts it's a different weird looking background and different lighting.

I think the too long / over-stimulating is part of it. My oldest kid (8 years) fell asleep for the last 30 mins and my younger one (6) started asking if we could leave. 2 hours 16 mins for an animated kids movie is dumb, they need to try to remember who they're making these for.

 

[Doom85]

they need to try to remember who they're making these for.

They do, they’re making it for adults, especially those who are fans of many aspects of they Spidey mythos, it just happens it’s a film that kids can generally see (there is some mild profanity, innuendo, and disturbing imagery).

Just because it’s animated doesn’t necessarily mean the primary demographic is kids.

Animation Age Ghetto - TV Tropes

For many people, animation is a joke. It is not seen as an artistic medium, but is instead stereotyped as a frivolous genre suitable primarily for children under the age of 12. There are many sociological theories as to how and why this …

tvtropes.org

 

[Toons]

Yeeeeees, that is the sort of stuff a lot of modern writing (or editing) skip over these days. We need proper foreshadowing of power sets to help explain what they can do, give us an idea of the stakes, and reduce the "deus ex machina" feel to a lot of comic book finales.

I mean we get that a lot to be honest.

Spider-Man spider sense slowly developing.

Captain America with the Mjolnir being teased years before the payoff.

In the newest guardians of the Galaxy rocket can be seen testing out rhe gravity boots he uses in the end.

Skip that stuff and the ending when the heroine flies through an entire battleship as if it were tissue paper feels hollow and weightless, just cgi spectacle.

Are you talking about Captain Marvel? She's supposed to be that strong. Always has been. Anyone who knew anything about Carol knew she could do that.

 

[AJUMP23]

It's a very good movie... until the third act where it kinda falls apart with the whole Miles vs 100 Spideys... I just can't suspend my disbelief enough for that one, because apparently every Spider-Man but Miles is a giant fucking idiot. Also, Miles comes off as incredibly selfish, which makes it easy to sympathize with Miguel

That said, it does get mildly interesting again once you realize Miles went back to the wrong dimension... but then you realize there isn't enough time to resolve this new revelation, and that it's sequel bait. Meh.... like I said, not a bad movie, but the first is superior in nearly every way.

7/10

It is also animated and I can’t believe someone drew all of that.

 

[jason10mm]

IAre you talking about Captain Marvel? She's supposed to be that strong. Always has been. Anyone who knew anything about Carol knew she could do that.

Dude, I read a ahit ton of comics as a kid and the most I ever knew of Ms. Marvel is that Rogue sucked her dry.

That her powers scaled up that high was never really built up within the film. People were trying to punch or shoot her till the very end.

 

[JCK75]

My Son loved the first but was less happy with this one.. I think it's his first cliffhanger ending and that bugged the crap out of him.

 

[poodaddy]

My daughter saw it with her school yesterday and said it was better than the first, but I'm not sure if that's just the hype of going with her friends. I'll wait till it comes to video as I only go to theatres for my kid. Is this probably gonna come to Disney +? I'd assume so, I think the first one did right?

 

[tkscz]

Took my son and wife to see it (daughter saw it with friends).

It was pretty good. Major issue I have is how bloated it is though. Both my son and I kept wondering when the movie was going to end. It felt like it was way longer than it needed to be.

Spoiler

While I fully understand the 20 minute Gwen intro was setup, it did not need to be THAT long.

I like the villain's build up, not so much his motivations,

Spoiler

though so little of the movie is focused on him anyway, to the point he's damn near forgotten in several parts of the movie.

The character building scenes are good for some characters but not for others.

Spoiler

Like Miles and Gwen, Miles and his parent, 2099 and his story, those came off well setup and built upon and made me want to see more in the third movie.

Though some characters are just unlikable or really annoying

Spoiler

Spider-Woman (Jessica) is just insufferable. Playing super hard into that "InDePeNdEnT WoMeN" troup, way too hard. She comes off outright mean, disrespectful, bitchy, constantly feeling a need to be superior to everyone. Spider Punk's schtick started getting old fast but worked for his character. He was likable but he kept saying the same thing, it got old by the time he leaves the movie. Indian Spider-man is Raj from Big Band Theory, that's it. Spider-Byte was someone I guess was supposed to be important but so little was done with her that I didn't notice or care about her when she showed up with everyone at the end. Only thing she did to let you know she was helping Miles is not cancel the teleportation, but you still don't know why she felt so bad for Miles, she spent like all of two minutes with him.

And while I can personally relate to

Spoiler

Peter in this movie being a dad myself and raising a daughter, I don't like how they did his character here. The pink robe and house shoes, the confusing way he tries to help Miles, the fact that he lets Spider Woman bully him. Like I do like the Dad side of him, that I find fine, it's just they don't do much with him, and should be doing more, especially as a mentor to Miles.

And maybe it's just the comic book reader in me but I also felt it was a big commentary or how Spider-man is treated in the books. For non-comic readers, he's disrespected a lot. It's like Marvel has a rule that he's not allowed to be happy and successful and feel good about himself. Whenever he has good things they just take it away. Did anyone else know after he got his body back from Dr. Octopus, he had a successful research company? Took all of a few months for Marvel to take that away and make him a broke reporter again. Don't get me started on his love life and whats currently going on. The movie feels like it's pointing these things out and saying "this isn't how it should be."

Overall, I give it 3.5 out 5. A great and fun movie but it's bloated with unlikable characters.

 

[DeafTourette]

My daughter saw it with her school yesterday and said it was better than the first, but I'm not sure if that's just the hype of going with her friends. I'll wait till it comes to video as I only go to theatres for my kid. Is this probably gonna come to Disney +? I'd assume so, I think the first one did right?

This is a Sony movie... It'll be on Netflix or something after it's done being sold in vod

 

[poodaddy]

This is a Sony movie... It'll be on Netflix or something after it's done being sold in vod

Ah, I got ya. Netflix it is then. Thank ya kindly.

 

[jason10mm]

And while I can personally relate to

Spoiler

Peter in this movie being a dad myself and raising a daughter, I don't like how they did his character here. The pink robe and house shoes, the confusing way he tries to help Miles, the fact that he lets Spider Woman bully him. Like I do like the Dad side of him, that I find fine, it's just they don't do much with him, and should be doing more, especially as a mentor to Miles.

agree with all your.points but now you've made me want a The Usual Suspects marvel film where it turned out all the disasters befalling the snobbish Avengers was unassuming bumbling Peter Parker behind it all in a grand reveal at the end*

* could also do this with Ant-man.

 

[Toons]

Dude, I read a ahit ton of comics as a kid and the most I ever knew of Ms. Marvel is that Rogue sucked her dry.

Captain marvel wss still an extreme powerhouse even after rogue did that.

That her powers scaled up that high was never really built up within the film. People were trying to punch or shoot her till the very end.

Yea it was. She put Thanos in a childhood he couldn't break our of in the beginning. Plus, there's her solo film where she does the exact same thing to other battleships multiple times.

 

[Foolworm]

It was great, except there were some audio issues which apparently was a thing for a lot of people? It was almost like TENET at times...

I want concept art of Gwen's dress in the dance scene, couldn't see it well due to the lighting but what I could make out looked cool.

 

[Billbofet]

Took my son and we loved it.
So glad I saw it in the theater as it is just a feast for the senses. The music really stood out to me as well.
To me, it is vastly superior to anything Marvel has put out post-Endgame.
Can't wait to see it again.

 

[pachura]

Generally, the movie was good/very good, visually beautiful, the audience was clapping at the end

However, the sensory overload was too much and often unnecessary. I remember "Into the Spider-verse" as more balanced & better paced; here, in almost every scene there were rainbow barfs, 5 graphical styles, chromatic aberrations, dithering, glitches, blurs - which are nice effects, but not everything everywhere all at once, especially at the very beginning... making it "Photogenic Epilepsy: The Movie". Not to mention the explanatory balloons that showed up on screen for a few frames. This movie should be watched at 0.8x speed

Also, was getting strong The Citadel of Ricks vibes.

PS. I would love to see Arkham Asylum: A Serious House on Serious Earth in this style, would be very fitting

 

[Esca]

Saw it just a couple of hours ago. Really enjoyed it and it was a visual feast. Will pick up the 4k when it comes out

 

[Sidney Prescott]

I'd probably say it's one of the best animated movies I've ever seen, absolutely beautiful to watch in cinemas. I never got to see Into the Spider-Verse that way so I'm really glad I got the opportunity this time around.

 

[Revolutionary]

Probably thread worthy but I'm too lazy to make one:

‘Death by a Thousand Paper Cuts’

Four animators say unsustainable working conditions are behind the success of Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse.

www.vulture.com

 

[jason10mm]

Probably thread worthy but I'm too lazy to make one:

‘Death by a Thousand Paper Cuts’

Four animators say unsustainable working conditions are behind the success of Spider-Man: Across the Spider-Verse.

www.vulture.com

Worth it.

 

[Trilobit]

It's a very good movie... until the third act where it kinda falls apart with the whole Miles vs 100 Spideys... I just can't suspend my disbelief enough for that one, because apparently every Spider-Man but Miles is a giant fucking idiot. Also, Miles comes off as incredibly selfish, which makes it easy to sympathize with Miguel

That said, it does get mildly interesting again once you realize Miles went back to the wrong dimension... but then you realize there isn't enough time to resolve this new revelation, and that it's sequel bait. Meh.... like I said, not a bad movie, but the first is superior in nearly every way.

7/10

I'm pretty good at getting a feel for a movie through opinion osmosis and so far I'm a bit disappointed without having yet watched it. The first one set the bar so high and had a good story mesh well with multiple characters. I wasn't sure about how the sequel could top or meet those high expectations and from what I've seen so far it looks like they just went more, more, MORE!

I'm debating myself now whether it's worth seeing it at the theaters due to the high cost in my country. I wanted something on the same excellence level of the original. :/

 

[DeafTourette]

I'm pretty good at getting a feel for a movie through opinion osmosis and so far I'm a bit disappointed without having yet watched it. The first one set the bar so high and had a good story mesh well with multiple characters. I wasn't sure about how the sequel could top or meet those high expectations and from what I've seen so far it looks like they just went more, more, MORE!

I'm debating myself now whether it's worth seeing it at the theaters due to the high cost in my country. I wanted something on the same excellence level of the original. :/

Most people really enjoyed it ... Including me. It exceeded the original by leaps and bounds, IMO. Just don't go into it expecting to nitpick. Nitpicking is the thief of joy!

 

[TaylorSwiftFan]

Just don't go into it expecting to nitpick. Nitpicking is the thief of joy!

Or in other words, turn your brain off. I don’t know about other people, but to me, when something isn’t right or isn’t logical for the world, it jumps out at me.

 

[Nvzman]

Overall, I give it 3.5 out 5. A great and fun movie but it's bloated with unlikable characters.

This is basically exactly how I feel. Amazing art, I really liked the stuff with Miles on his own being Spider-Man and the Spot, but damn I thought the multiverse stuff was stupid. In a way it felt like it was deliberately making all of the other Spider-Men act insufferable/completely out of character just to develop Miles's story. Its kind of crazy, it almost feels like a lot of the characters where just haphazardly picked for fan-service points but the writers didn't know anything about them so they just made shit up.

 

[jason10mm]

Most people really enjoyed it ... Including me. It exceeded the original by leaps and bounds, IMO. Just don't go into it expecting to nitpick. Nitpicking is the thief of joy!

I'd like to reverse it, "lack of joy leads to nitpicking."

When I REALLY dig a film, say...Highlander, for an appropriately old niche reference, I can overlook the NUMEROUS flaws because I'm just having a damned god time watching a Russian War God kill Punisher-lite and a Frenchman play a Scotsman and a Scotsman play a Spaniard.

But when there is little joy in a film for me, THAT's when I turn to nitpicking.

 

[jason10mm]

This is basically exactly how I feel. Amazing art, I really liked the stuff with Miles on his own being Spider-Man and the Spot, but damn I thought the multiverse stuff was stupid. In a way it felt like it was deliberately making all of the other Spider-Men act insufferable/completely out of character just to develop Miles's story. Its kind of crazy, it almost feels like a lot of the characters where just haphazardly picked for fan-service points but the writers didn't know anything about them so they just made shit up.

Very true, I feel like they leaned HEAVILY on the

Spoiler

Miles as the abberant origin of multiverse disasters

as a reason for every to kinda give Miles the cold shoulder when it seemed like he was just the same as most of them.

 

[DeafTourette]

I'd like to reverse it, "lack of joy leads to nitpicking."

When I REALLY dig a film, say...Highlander, for an appropriately old niche reference, I can overlook the NUMEROUS flaws because I'm just having a damned god time watching a Russian War God kill Punisher-lite and a Frenchman play a Scotsman and a Scotsman play a Spaniard.

But when there is little joy in a film for me, THAT's when I turn to nitpicking.

Agreed!

 

[Ballthyrm]

Worth it.

To the higher up and the general public maybe, but we won't be getting more movies like this by burning artists every time we make one.

 

[jason10mm]

To the higher up and the general public maybe, but we won't be getting more movies like this by burning artists every time we make one.

I'd argue we DON'T get the best films without someone pushing for excellence.

 

[Ballthyrm]

I'd argue we DON'T get the best films without someone pushing for excellence.

I would agree that's why the directors should stop being lazy fucks and make the artists pay for their shortcomings.

 

[MaestroMike]

 

[jason10mm]

I would agree that's why the directors should stop being lazy fucks and make the artists pay for their shortcomings.

Lazy? The director is constantly tweaking to get PERFECTION. Some is probably a lack of awareness on how difficult it may be for animation to change on the fly. Though this kind of leader indecisiveness, fickleness, or perhaps constant iteration without being able to stick to a plan can be terrible in a lot of projects, for a purely artistic endeavor like a commercial entertainment film I'd say it's less of an issue.

 

[FunkMiller]

Finally caught this now it's on demand.

Not bad. 7/10.

Nowhere near as good as the first one... but then it's all

Spoiler

one giant set up for a third movie, with absolutely zero pay off, so that's really what hamstrings it as a story. They would have done better to at least have a climax where something is resolved - even if it's not the full narrative. The best middle films of trilogies always do this - or stay self contained, with threads that flow out into the final part. Leaving the audience as unsatisfied as this does is not the best storytelling.

Also, the easter eggs and fan service stuff gets a bit much after a while. I'm hoping they rein it in a bit for part 3.

Unfortunately this film does suffer a bit from multiverse apathy syndrome, thanks to Disney and Warner Bros overplaying the concept so badly. A shame, given that this is the series that started the whole thing at the cinema, and did it best.

 

[jason10mm]

I find it kinda funny that all of these multiverse shows (Spidey, Flash, Star Trek, etc) have this idea of a timestream type entity that expresses direct influence on mortal events across different dimensions but NO ONE calls that God. Instead we get some cynical "God is just a more powerful version of ourselves" style strawman (Star Trek is notorious for doing this), if it's even mentioned.

 

[FunkMiller]

I find it kinda funny that all of these multiverse shows (Spidey, Flash, Star Trek, etc) have this idea of a timestream type entity that expresses direct influence on mortal events across different dimensions but NO ONE calls that God. Instead we get some cynical "God is just a more powerful version of ourselves" style strawman (Star Trek is notorious for doing this), if it's even mentioned.

Do they? I don't remember much about a godlike entity influencing mortal events in any of the multiverse stuff I've seen. It's mostly alternate versions of existing characters, or multi-versal supervillains.

Doesn't really fit the concept. You'd have different gods in different universes - whether they are 'real' or imagined.

 

[jason10mm]

Do they? I don't remember much about a godlike entity influencing mortal events in any of the multiverse stuff I've seen. It's mostly alternate versions of existing characters, or multi-versal supervillains.

Doesn't really fit the concept. You'd have different gods in different universes - whether they are 'real' or imagined.

Spiderverse (what i was referring to with 'Spidey', not the third Holland Spiderman film) definitely had a "this is gonna happen to all of us and stopping it has bad consequences" vibe that certainly seems to imply an omniscient willful precense to me.

I don't recall or haven't watched much of the MCU multiverse nonsense so I didn't mention them specifically for that reason. Though the first Dr. Strange had...Dor-mamu(?) which fit the Lovecraftian Great Old One concept at least, whether those could be considered "God" is debatable, I suppose.

But Flash echoed the spiderverse idea, and Star Trek:Strange New Worlds (and some older eps) kinda does as well when they tinker with time or alt dimensions.

Anyway, not really relevant to any specific film discussion, just an observation of how writers echo a cultural belief at what must be a subconscious level despite having a deity-less universe on the page.

 

[Spyxos]

Spoiler: Story spoiler

Was it actually explained why Morales is the only one to loose 2 people? All the other Spiderman have only lost one. He already lost his uncle (Prowler) in the first part 1 and now he is supposed to lose his dad as well? Sounds kind of stupid. Or was it explained and I just missed it?

 

[FunkMiller]

Spiderverse (what i was referring to with 'Spidey', not the third Holland Spiderman film) definitely had a "this is gonna happen to all of us and stopping it has bad consequences" vibe that certainly seems to imply an omniscient willful precense to me.

I don't recall or haven't watched much of the MCU multiverse nonsense so I didn't mention them specifically for that reason. Though the first Dr. Strange had...Dor-mamu(?) which fit the Lovecraftian Great Old One concept at least, whether those could be considered "God" is debatable, I suppose.

But Flash echoed the spiderverse idea, and Star Trek:Strange New Worlds (and some older eps) kinda does as well when they tinker with time or alt dimensions.

Oh, all that shit is chocked full of 'gods'... which I guess is why they never bother with 'god' because he'd be just another supernatural entity alongside all the others.

 

[FunkMiller]

Spoiler: Story spoiler

Was it actually explained why Morales is the only one to loose 2 people? All the other Spiderman have only lost one. He already lost his uncle (Prowler) in the first part 1 and now he is supposed to lose his dad as well? Sounds kind of stupid. Or was it explained and I just missed it?

Not really. It's all a bit woolly on that front, to be honest. It's more that

Spoiler

every Spider-man has to suffer some kind of personal tragedy for them to 'be' Spider-man. And how many tragedies? OG Pete lost Ben, Gwen and even May eventually.

It is kind of stupid when you think about it, because what is a tragedy, when you get right down to it? How would different tragedies affect different versions of Spider-man?

It would have worked a damned sight better if it had just been the one tragedy that has to happen in every universe - something like Ben dying. Much better focus. But this movie is about Miles, so they had to broaden it out to include anyone close to whichever Spider-man it is.

Frankly there's probably a better movie, with Peter having to fight a whole shit load of other Peters in order to save 'his' Uncle Ben.

 

[Shouta]

Spoiler: Story spoiler

Was it actually explained why Morales is the only one to loose 2 people? All the other Spiderman have only lost one. He already lost his uncle (Prowler) in the first part 1 and now he is supposed to lose his dad as well? Sounds kind of stupid. Or was it explained and I just missed it?

His specific situation is explained in the film.

Spoiler

Spiderman experiences a number of a tragedies in their lives and they fit into categories. The first is usually a close friend or family member. Uncle Ben for Peter, Prowler for Miles, or Peter for Gwen. Another death is a trusted ally or the Police Captain. Peter's was Captain Stacy or Gwen's father in his story. For Miles and for Gwen, their police captain are their fathers.

Well, he's going to be police captain is the thing. Gwen averts her tragedy when she finds out her father quit being a cop to be there for his daughter and that gives her the resolve to help Miles.

 

[Sleepwalker]

I finally watched it, its like a 6/10 for me, my wife loved it tho.


I didn't know this was supposed to be part 1 for the next one so that's my bad but I was extremely disappointed in the way the movie handled itself and how it ended. Felt many of the jokes felt flat and I don't really care for Miles and have trouble getting invested his character. Movie for me would've been a lot better with Peter as the protagonist but here we are.