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[SkylineRKR]

I watched the valentines outcomes and I think I made a right choice with Sadayo. Just Sojiro being completely caught off guard when she enters, he figures it out right away and goes 'teacher and student... so this stuff really does happen' cracked me up. On Ann etc he basically doesn't react at all. Sadayo also blatantly says she wants some.

When I was young... Hoo boy!

 

[Guess Who]

Persona 5 (Atlus, 2017)

 

[Shouta]

Elaborate on this literary reading, please. I'm a sucker for this kind of stuff.

Sure. This is only my opinion so keep that in mind and it’s not really complete. I’ll try and keep it short as well.

To get straight to the point, Yaldabaoth is actually the metaverse representation of Japan’s culture. There a couple of reasons for this. One is the fact that things that are created and exist in the metaverse are born from the perceptions that people in the real world. This is presented to us throughout the game right from the beginning and all the way to the end. Two, almost everything in the metaverse is based off the perception of something real. At the bottom of Mementos, you see everyone in jail cells and are inside them willingly because they felt safe within those confines. So what is something that every human would view the same and feel safe about unless they were an outsider like the Thieves? Well, it would be rules, structures, guidelines for conduct and the like that belong to a group. That is what a culture is; the rules and structures that a group of people follow. Lastly, Yaldabaoth say it was born from the people’s feelings towards order, stability, etc. As those feelings are directed towards the rules and structures of their society, it can be said that Yaldabaoth is culture given sentience.

How the game critiques Japanese culture becomes more readily noticeable once that understanding is established. It’s specifically along the dimensions that gave Yaldabaoth life: order, stability, authority, etc. When you look at the various stories in the game for the characters and confidants/co-ops, it’s usually along these lines that they highlight the issues with Japan. Ann, Ryuji, and the MC all have stories related to either being an outsider or disturbing the established order. Yusuke, Makoto, and Haru have stories about how their deferral to an authority blinded them or restricted them. Many of the other stories have those threads but also deal with problems specific to Japan as well. There’s a lot to discuss on an individual character basis I’d need to spend more time formulating and writing it, lol.

I will say that I think Akechi’s position in the story is particularly interesting and he’s not meant to be a hidden villain at all. He’s actually meant to be a visible counterpoint to the Thieves and to be a criticism of people that have a view of what is just but avert their eyes in in lieu of maintain the status quo.

Anyway, there are a bunch of other things as well like the reason for the religious imagery and the like that help to bolster this stuff but my understanding is a bit lacking on that part so it's not terribly complete.

 

[Inquisitive_Ghost]

Sure. This is only my opinion so keep that in mind and it’s not really complete. I’ll try and keep it short as well.

To get straight to the point, Yaldabaoth is actually the metaverse representation of Japan’s culture. There a couple of reasons for this. One is the fact that things that are created and exist in the metaverse are born from the perceptions that people in the real world. This is presented to us throughout the game right from the beginning and all the way to the end. Two, almost everything in the metaverse is based off the perception of something real. At the bottom of Mementos, you see everyone in jail cells and are inside them willingly because they felt safe within those confines. So what is something that every human would view the same and feel safe about unless they were an outsider like the Thieves? Well, it would be rules, structures, guidelines for conduct and the like that belong to a group. That is what a culture is; the rules and structures that a group of people follow. Lastly, Yaldabaoth say it was born from the people’s feelings towards order, stability, etc. As those feelings are directed towards the rules and structures of their society, it can be said that Yaldabaoth is culture given sentience.

How the game critiques Japanese culture becomes more readily noticeable once that understanding is established. It’s specifically along the dimensions that gave Yaldabaoth life: order, stability, authority, etc. When you look at the various stories in the game for the characters and confidants/co-ops, it’s usually along these lines that they highlight the issues with Japan. Ann, Ryuji, and the MC all have stories related to either being an outsider or disturbing the established order. Yusuke, Makoto, and Haru have stories about how their deferral to an authority blinded them or restricted them. Many of the other stories have those threads but also deal with problems specific to Japan as well. There’s a lot to discuss on an individual character basis I’d need to spend more time formulating and writing it, lol.

I will say that I think Akechi’s position in the story is particularly interesting and he’s not meant to be a hidden villain at all. He’s actually meant to be a visible counterpoint to the Thieves and to be a criticism of people that have a view of what is just but avert their eyes in in lieu of maintain the status quo.

Anyway, there are a bunch of other things as well like the reason for the religious imagery and the like that help to bolster this stuff but my understanding is a bit lacking on that part so it's not terribly complete.

Very interesting stuff. Thanks for elaborating on it. Definitely one of those things where I could tell there's something there, but I couldn't fully realize it.

For some more fun contextual stuff, I've been skipping around Wikipedia, and the article on the Seven Deadly Sins is proving pretty interesting.

On Akechi, I think this is relevant:

Dante described vengeance as "love of justice perverted to revenge and spite".

For Shido:

The negative version of pride (Latin, superbia) is considered, on almost every list, the original and most serious of the seven deadly sins: the perversion of the faculties that make humans more like God—dignity and holiness. It is also thought to be the source of the other capital sins.

Does anyone have a screencap of the Latin sins and two extras from the title animation?

 

[Shouta]

Very interesting stuff. Thanks for elaborating on it. Definitely one of those things where I could tell there's something there, but I couldn't fully realize it.

For some more fun contextual stuff, I've been skipping around Wikipedia, and the article on the Seven Deadly Sins is proving pretty interesting.

On Akechi, I think this is relevant:



For Shido:



Does anyone have a screencap of the Latin sins and two extras from the title animation?

I should point out that the game has a lot of situations that have happened in other countries as well. So quite a bit of the commentary is totally understandable but because of the way different cultures handle and respond to things, some of the finer things get lost.

 

[Inquisitive_Ghost]

I should point out that the game has a lot of situations that have happened in other countries as well. So quite a bit of the commentary is totally understandable but because of the way different cultures handle and respond to things, some of the finer things get lost.

Of course. I was referring to Yaldabaoth in particular being something I couldn't fully grasp, in my case.

 

[Kireek]

I just finished this game the other night and its all I've been able to think about since. So fucking good. Ann and Futaba ended up being my two favorite characters. Futaba's arc in particular really resonated with me as someone who has suffered from similar social anxiety. Watching her make a list with the MC and conquer it step by step over the course of her social link was so rewarding.

 

[BroodShadow]

Finished the game I loved it I think it's as good or close to as good as persona 3 and way better than 4 but it has issues.

The Igor twist did nothing for me since i have been playing the games in JP audio for a while with the help of undubs or the game just having the sub right out of the box like this one or the fighting games so i knew right away they were not going to get rid him of him for this new igor.

At least at the same time we get the twist about the twins and i loved that twist since I think they make for great attendants so adding more depth to them was welcome.

I also feel the games story peaks when you reach current time it gets a little bit worse after that the ship is pretty awful it's long and you can't skip most fights.

On the other hand this game has so much style I can't help but be impressed
It also seems way better balanced in regards to difficulty the game put up a good fight most of the game without any clear way to easily break the game early P4G was awful about letting you get strong from grinding.

 

[chrominance]

That was never a sentiment even in the original P4. I distinctly remember people mentioning about how the MC definitely should visit again, inviting him back etc. Even outside of that there was a strong them of friendships that survive any distance. It was never meant a final goodbye at least in the true ending even without the Golden epilogue.

I mean, technically yes, but your friends are tearfully running after your train at the end and they sure don't expect to see you as often as, say, Golden, Arena and Dancing All Night imply. I feel like when you're in high school in a small town, "we'll see each other in a few months/year" feels like an eternity in a way that wouldn't work in Persona 5, with the cast of characters it has.

 

[LiK]

Persona 5 (Atlus, 2017)

ROFL, I had the same thought.

 

[SolVanderlyn]

Persona 5 (Atlus, 2017)

Try University of T̶e̶x̶a̶s̶ Tokyo. Coulda gone pro if I hadn't joined the Navy. I'm not one of those beltway pansies. I could break the p̶r̶e̶s̶i̶d̶e̶n̶t̶ prime minister in two... with my bare hands!

 

[Antiwhippy]

Metaverse, son.

 

[Eylos]

Try University of T̶e̶x̶a̶s̶ Tokyo. Coulda gone pro if I hadn't joined the Navy. I'm not one of those beltway pansies. I could break the p̶r̶e̶s̶i̶d̶e̶n̶t̶ prime minister in two... with my bare hands!

I remembered toguro

 

[SolVanderlyn]

I remembered toguro

That was actually the first thing that came to mind for me as well.

 

[Jintor]

The only thing I'm disappointed about with the Oceans Eleven bit was that, before it all unfolded, I was convinced that the entire game was taking place inside an interrogation room in Sae's Palace and they had actually managed to trick the real Sae into the room to try and convince her of the rightness of their cause instead of just out and out stealing her heart.

That would have been dope. What we got was also dope, but it was a bit convoluted.

 

[Genryu]

The only thing I'm disappointed about with the Oceans Eleven bit was that, before it all unfolded, I was convinced that the entire game was taking place inside an interrogation room in Sae's Palace and they had actually managed to trick the real Sae into the room to try and convince her of the rightness of their cause instead of just out and out stealing her heart.

That would have been dope. What we got was also dope, but it was a bit convoluted.

Remember though, they never actually steal Sae's heart. So really, the interrogation was the heist and Joker manages to change her heart with his story.

 

[Jintor]

Remember though, they never actually steal Sae's heart. So really, the interrogation was the heist and Joker manages to change her heart with his story.

Yeah, but it was IRL so the repercussions of 'getting caught' continued throughout.

I was convinced they had tricked her into entering her own palace somehow. Which... they kind of did?

 

[nOoblet16]

Yeah, but it was IRL so the repercussions of 'getting caught' continued throughout.

I was convinced they had tricked her into entering her own palace somehow. Which... they kind of did?

They couldn't have had her in her own palace due to several reasons, first being she could possibly run into herself and the 2nd being the palace owner being in palace causes problems.

 

[Jintor]

Well Futaba was able to exist in her own palace for a while, but she definitely had Shadow Futaba stalking her the entire time. (Also it was really dope to have a Shadow that was more or less determined to try and get the Real Self to deal with her own issues... though I wonder if that's what Shadows are like if they don't go beserk?)

 

[nOoblet16]

When Futaba came in they mentioned it's not good for palace owner to be in their own palace, it's then mentioned again when they explain it after Sae's palace when they say something like "She was only there for a short time so it was not a problem for the palace owner to be in her own palace".

Considering all that we can assume that palace owner in their own palace leads to problems.

 

[Antiwhippy]

Though seriously.

By Persona 6.

Can they really get away with another "manifestation of mankind's negative traits and the plucky kids showing the hope of mankind" again?

 

[Jintor]

So in terms of hooks to other games, does the Metaverse tell us anything about the TV World, the Midnight Hour, or whatever fucked up dimension Arena was set in? Or are they all discreet realities?

 

[Antiwhippy]

So in terms of hooks to other games, does the Metaverse tell us anything about the TV World, the Midnight Hour, or whatever fucked up dimension Arena was set in? Or are they all discreet realities?

They're the collective consciousness of humanity's negativity in fancier names.

3 was nihilism, 4 was aversion from the truth and the comfort of lies, 5 was the apathy of society.

 

[Jintor]

Right but is the Metaverse the overall connecting structure of all the Consciousness realms, or just another realm of its own?

 

[Antiwhippy]

My theory is that it's all the same thing but the visual perception, the cognition of it if you will, are localised to the environments.

 

[Jintor]

Well I think we can take that as a given since powerful Shadows can warp their local environs into Palaces. I wonder if a Momentos could eat the TV World though.

The more you think about the metaphysics of Persona games the more your head hurts. Time stops in the Dark Hour but doesn't in the TV World or for Momentos... if I remember right they do seem to 'overlay' onto reality (exiting through different TVs in the TV World dumped you into seperate areas, Palaces required specific locations to enter the same places though obviously the internal topography was jacked)...

 

[DrunkShogun]

I'm in December and have bought every drink from the vending machines in the 4 main cities but no trophie has popped up. Did I miss something obscure or do I have to actually drink all the purchases.

 

[Jintor]

Remember though, they never actually steal Sae's heart. So really, the interrogation was the heist and Joker manages to change her heart with his story.

Shit. I was thinking about this a bit more and realised how interesting that it is in context of the entire game's themes - the one ally they truly gain through a change of heart is one who they set up a situation where they convince her instead of stealing their Treasure.

Huh.

 

[LiK]

We never saw Sae's treasure right?

Also, I think she might be one of the best female characters in any game in terms of the way she was portrayed. I wouldn't mind playing as her in Ace Attorney Sae.

 

[Jintor]

i really loved her shadow version too.

Like, every other shadow is this really exaggerated version of their base, but Sae's is completely different in demeanour and appearance.

Her eye design was also really interesting since it resembled Joker's mask so much. I was really curious about that.

 

[Weebos]

I'm in December and have bought every drink from the vending machines in the 4 main cities but no trophie has popped up. Did I miss something obscure or do I have to actually drink all the purchases.

No, there are vending machines everywhere, did you check the school? I think some unique ones are there.

 

[Antiwhippy]

i really loved her shadow version too.

Like, every other shadow is this really exaggerated version of their base, but Sae's is completely different in demeanour and appearance.

Her eye design was also really interesting since it resembled Joker's mask so much. I was really curious about that.

Also that fishnet slit.

 

[LiK]

i really loved her shadow version too.

Like, every other shadow is this really exaggerated version of their base, but Sae's is completely different in demeanour and appearance.

Her eye design was also really interesting since it resembled Joker's mask so much. I was really curious about that.

My only gripe is her Boss version design was kinda lame. Just some armored steampunk monster. It didn't really gel with her Shadow version and seemed kinda uninspired compared to the other bosses.

 

[Jintor]

also how dope is it that morgana had real cat portraits that whole time but they only use them once you get to the end of days

 

[kadotsu]

My only gripe is her Boss version design was kinda lame. Just some armored steampunk monster. It didn't really gel with her Shadow version and seemed kinda uninspired compared to the other bosses.

She's Makoto's sister, the road warrior. The design is just consistent.

 

[LiK]

also how dope is it that morgana had real cat portraits that whole time but they only use them once you get to the end of days

Fucking hilarious that real cat Morgan's can fix their vehicle. Not sure when he could even do that lol

She's Makoto's sister, the road warrior. The design is just consistent.

Fuck, you're right. I guess it did make sense in context with Makoto's costume.

 

[Antiwhippy]

also how dope is it that morgana had real cat portraits that whole time but they only use them once you get to the end of days

He had to accept his true self.

A car.

 

[Jintor]

also it sucked that we never got to see makoto riding a sick ass motorcycle and when you level her up she gets off her goddamn motorcycle

pope jean was fucking boss

 

[LiK]

I have to say that there were several things I liked about them going with compared to P4G.

First, I like that the adults like Sojiro and Sae became allies instead of being oblivious to what they were doing near the end.

Second, I liked that the whole team was in the Velvet room so they got to meet Igor.

Third, the road trip to take MC home was really sweet. We don't get some lonely train ride like in P4. That was really uplifting. Just as uplifting as P4G's true ending when

Spoiler

MC returned to Inaba in the epilogue

, imo.

 

[Jintor]

i wonder what MC thinks of his parents who basically tossed him out

admittedly the pressure must have been huge if Shido was behind it.

man that cutscene at the beginning sucks. "I'LL SUE!" yeah, nah, you gotta be more threatening than that...

 

[LiK]

i wonder what MC thinks of his parents who basically tossed him out

admittedly the pressure must have been huge if Shido was behind it.

man that cutscene at the beginning sucks. "I'LL SUE!" yeah, nah, you gotta be more threatening than that...

Man, Shido was truly a jackass. I kept laughing that he was basically Trump. His entire monologue reminded me of Trump. Make Japan Great Again.

 

[Jintor]

if trump had material knowledge of a secret collective consciousness he could use to influence people he would bungle it but win anyway

 

[Antiwhippy]

Shido is way more calculated and actually competent lmao.

 

[LiK]

if trump had material knowledge of a secret collective consciousness he could use to influence people he would bungle it but win anyway

Shido is way more calculated and actually competent lmao.

Haha, indeed. I wish we could steal Trump's heart. It's probably his tax returns in the real world.

 

[Jintor]

it's a small statue of himself

 

[Thud]

Fucking hilarious that real cat Morgan's can fix their vehicle. Not sure when he could even do that lol

Also sabotaged the car that were following them lol.

 

[LiK]

it's a small statue of himself

with tiny hands

Also sabotaged the car that were following them lol.

haha, yea, that was a bit silly. i'm gonna just have my own fan theory that he learned alot while he was away for the past few months as a stray.

 

[chrominance]

I wonder about the whole "Dark Hour/Midnight Channel/Metaverse are the same thing" theory. It all starts to sound a little weird if you begin to bring the Arena/Ultimax story into things, where you have (Arena/Ultimax story spoilers)

Spoiler

the Kirijo group sponsoring an anti-shadow task force

and (this one I remember less, so I could be wrong)

Spoiler

Naoto/Kirijo still working with the authorities on anti-shadow cases?

. Surely word of all this would have made it to Tokyo, and vice-versa. Persona 4 is different because of how isolated those cases were from any instrument of earthly power, but Persona 5's manifestation of shadows and the cognitive world directly intertwines with political and police forces. I can't imagine the relevant parties from previous games would sit this one out if they had a choice.

 

[Jintor]

well, arena and ultimax are pretty big reasons why expanding anti shadow groups to the wider world sucks, because it turns persona kinda into MIB and that's not what persona is

 

[DrunkShogun]

No, there are vending machines everywhere, did you check the school? I think some unique ones are there.

I checked all 4 vending machines during November and bought everything there. Might make a note when I get home and compare against what items are stated in the list.