you're still going to have real human beings reading an awful lot of almost-nonsense for specific stretches of the game, so i guess we need to re-dub it, too
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[SPOILERS] Persona 5 Spoiler Thread | Steal your heart; steel yourself
- Thread starter Nachos
- Start date
you're still going to have real human beings reading an awful lot of almost-nonsense for specific stretches of the game, so i guess we need to re-dub it, too
i would probably design it to be used with the japanese VA to avoid this
Crimson_Echidna
Banned
I hated him. So. Much.
It frequently felt like Draymond wasn't comfortable with Akechi's style of speaking or the complexity of his character. For someone to play Akechi, they need to be able to convey multiple aspects of him at the same time. Akechi speaks quasi-formally, but he's also meant to be charming. He's polite, but his words are usually backhanded. He's confident, but there's doubt in him. He doesn't give a fuck, because if he stops for more than a second, he'll be crushed under his own guilt.
I felt like Draymond missed all of that. His delivery was frequently stilted and awkward, more focused on getting the words out clearly than making them feel right. His performance is okay when Akechi's mood is only meant to be just one thing at a time in a scene, but when he's not being super angsty or screaming, he just sounds like a drone who's too swept up in perfect enunciation to remember that he's actually supposed to be playing a character with, like, motives and feelings and shit.
Yuri would've been perfect for Akechi. After all, it's not like he doesn't already have on his resume a role of a terribly troubled detective character with a polite exterior that hides a nightmarish storm on the inside.
Who also undergoes a psychotic break at one point in the story and attacks his former teammates.
And is a rad-ass boss fight, arguably the best in the game.
And even tries once during the story to commit suicide.
(If you haven't played, you really should. It'll squash any trepidation you have about Yuri's voice being too "whiny" to do the psychotic scenes correctly.The Evil Withinhad me Shook for like a full two weeks.)Haunted!Joseph screaming, "Fuck you, Kidman!"
They wasted Johnny Yong Bosch on Adachi. I think he would've been the perfect fit for the duality of Akechi.
Autoignition
Member
lmao poor JYB. They abused him in P4. I'll never get over how weird it was to hear the same voice coming out of the faces of both the protagonist and the antagonist. Got even weirder in the spin-offs once Yu started getting actual spoken lines.
that was the coolest shit
Autoignition
Member
idk man that whole shit with JYB having full conversations with himself was weird.
Ended up quoting your post wrong but yeah I can see that. Avoided most of the spinoffs and the anime.
Just thought it was cool in the game how the grunts were the same
reusing the VA for both the protag and antagonist made sense in P3 where
, and the JP version did it there too.
bosch being both the protag and antagonist in P4's dub was just bad foresight from before they realized the protag would have to actually talk in future games
ryuji/pharos is literally part of you
bosch being both the protag and antagonist in P4's dub was just bad foresight from before they realized the protag would have to actually talk in future games
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
JYB as Yu in the original game: perfect
JYB as Yu in all of the spinoffs, adaptations, etc: immediate switch to the JP track
JYB as Yu in all of the spinoffs, adaptations, etc: immediate switch to the JP track
I mean that he turns on Shido's ends when Shido's ends get in the way of his revenge. Which is exactly what he does.
He turns on Shido when it becomes obvious that Shido is just going to toss him out. He also rebels against the idea that Shido is using him rather than the other way around.
By killing cognitive Akechi, he takes the power back. By saving you all, he further's his revenge and takes some authorship of what you go on to do to Shido.
He kills Shido's idea of him as a pawn and salvages his idea of himself as the master. (Which is also why I don't find your take on the translation conclusive. I think it reads what I saw as going on just as well).
As soon as the "jig is up," that is the moment he shoots the cognitive Akechi.
Akechi does not cleanly come around to be "on your side." Sure he is jealous/curious about you. Sure he saves your lives. But he also is enacting his war against Shido even in his last act. (and I think it is pretty close to the surface that that is part of why he is doing it).
He isn't doing it just because he is "tortured rival turned good."
That is an oversimplification.
And that is generally what I feel about your take. You can read the angle I am seeing quite easily into what he does and accept he is tortured and confused and what not. It is just a further wrinkle, but it also undermines an "Akechi is redeemed" take.
Don't see why a dungeon about him would need to be his palace.
...
And again, this is all on top of the issues that the "dark" Akechi story is rushed, told in information dumps, and is generally just disappointing. (Edit: and I think the first two of these feed into what I am saying. Even if the intention was that he had a clear change of heart...I don't think the evidence is there that he did. It is a complicated thing and I don't think they have the body of content to untangle it).
The game flirts with what you did being morally questionable at various points. Akechi served as a counterpoint to your ethics. And then the game just turns him into a ridiculous hypocrite with a secret second side where he is doing what you all are doing, only worse.
The game could have used a detective character.
#NeverForget
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
Exactly. It didn't really matter who was doing the grunting and PURSE OWNERS!, so choosing the VA of the character's mirror self was brilliant.
Green Mamba
Member
All this Akechi discussion on the previous page just reminded me that Akechi sucks. In a game full of believable villains he sticks out like an ugly sore thumb. He's a bad cartoon stereotype given tons and tons of buildup only for his story to run into a flat brick wall. Unlike Adachi who becomes a considerably more interesting character when his true nature is revealed Akechi's revelation violently rips the carpet out from under the character that had been building through the course of the game.
The entire game was basically building up to his betrayal and then his entire character arc is shoved into a dumb miniboss at the end of a dungeon. And then he's basically never mentioned again.
Yaldabaoth was more interesting than Akechi was.
The entire game was basically building up to his betrayal and then his entire character arc is shoved into a dumb miniboss at the end of a dungeon. And then he's basically never mentioned again.
Yaldabaoth was more interesting than Akechi was.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
I just can't listen to him after hearing Daisuke Namikawa's performance. That softspoken deadpan delivery fits Yu so much better than JYB's generic hero voice.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
He does have a pretty good "Mmf".
Daisuke Namikawa is legendary, but JYB's hardcore deadpan is pretty hilarious in the anime. And the way he delivers some of Yu's super shonen lines in the spinoff games... too good.
TheMrPliskin
Member
I somehow missed that there was a P5 spoiler thread until now, but skimming the last few pages I can only assume that all I've missed out on is people coming to accept that Akechi is the best.
Cannon_Fodder
Member
Yeah, I totally agree. Plus, I think "psychotic" would require less awkward phrasing than "rampage" would. But I think both of them kinda miss the mark, at least based on what I've read about the Japanese equivalent. I don't think there's one, unified English phrase you could use to convey the right idea in every instance. I'm wondering if it wouldn't be better to just pick an English replacement on a scene-by-scene, and line-by-line basis.
Y'know, that or just use the phrase "dick-in-a-hamburger" every time. That'd change things, sure, but the comedy value. . .
Real talk, that sounds like a ton of fun. Not even in a "I'll succeed were the official script failed!" kind of way. I just think it'd be interesting to have to solve the problems that come with localizing something without the deadline pressure.
Also, in case I was crossing wires...I also don't think Akechi redeemed is a better character than how I see him. I'd think he'd be a worse character, taking any complexity out of him and making the limited character work we saw supposed to do more work than it has the chops to do.
I sincerely hope that the ambiguity I saw in him was intentional rather than just a result of him being undercooked (which he is).
He's a bad cliche character; the least he has is is ambiguity. If that is taken too...he has absolutely nothing to recommend him, in that final act imo. Such a disappointment.
And again, I'm not saying this because he is a traitor. Or because he is a murderer of one (possibly two) family members of the group. He could be that and be a good character, obviously. He just isn't.
I sincerely hope that the ambiguity I saw in him was intentional rather than just a result of him being undercooked (which he is).
He's a bad cliche character; the least he has is is ambiguity. If that is taken too...he has absolutely nothing to recommend him, in that final act imo. Such a disappointment.
And again, I'm not saying this because he is a traitor. Or because he is a murderer of one (possibly two) family members of the group. He could be that and be a good character, obviously. He just isn't.
Fantastic video about the symbolism in P5.
https://youtu.be/QsBsMa4MY6U
He also did a follow-up about the Final Personas.
https://youtu.be/rikakfo1N1k
https://youtu.be/QsBsMa4MY6U
He also did a follow-up about the Final Personas.
https://youtu.be/rikakfo1N1k
QuantumSquid
Member
holy shit this image is large
Autoignition
Member
Oh boy, if only they would.
StarCreator
Member
Is it weird that I just spent over 150 hours beating a game and all I want to do is start the New Game+ immediately?
Help me decide whether to do that or actually start Persona 4 Golden (I never finished Persona 4)
Help me decide whether to do that or actually start Persona 4 Golden (I never finished Persona 4)
I think Jeff at Giant Bomb would be more interested in P5 if he knew Igor was a fake. He is very set in his ways regarding wanting Persona to be like P4, so I bet the weird voice of Igor would bother him quite a bit. Not as much as the lack of Chie, though.
Go for the Gold.
Go for the Gold.
Cannon_Fodder
Member
So I've been playing Fire Emblem Echoes: Shadow of Valentia, and one of the very first villains is voiced by Dan Woren. I had completely forgotten how distinctive his voice is; from the first sentence he spoke I just thought, "Damn, that's Igor." Shame they couldn't reuse his old voice clips, but I'm sure they had a good reason.
The Silver
Member
fuck you cat I'm not tired and I don't wanna sleep, I'm calling Kawakami
Lunafreya Nox Fleuret
Member
Everytime Morgana told me to go to sleep.... I just wanted to kick him so hard. Okay, but not as much as Ryuji.
Isaac Otherworld
Member
As someone who has suffered from crippling insomnia all my life, I wish I had a magical cat that kept me on a regular sleep schedule.
Autoignition
Member
Real cats are pretty decent for this too, though.
I just finished this game this morning, or at least I think I did. I beat the God of Control at 6:40 in the morning after a 40 minute battle that came down to my shoestrings. I would have probably had a bad day if I would have died at that point. I was using one of the weird stew items to recover SP because I didn't have anything else at that point, and two characters were dead.
After sitting through the post-battle scenes I was able to save, still on December 24, and I had to get ready for work. I fell asleep in front of the game and woke up at 4 AM on the couch with the game still running and still didn't know if I was going to finish the fight in time.
Yesterday morning I was in Shido's palace with two letters of recommendation. This game possessed me and I can't believe it's finally over. I might start working on the platinum tonight because I don't think I'm ready to be done.
After sitting through the post-battle scenes I was able to save, still on December 24, and I had to get ready for work. I fell asleep in front of the game and woke up at 4 AM on the couch with the game still running and still didn't know if I was going to finish the fight in time.
Yesterday morning I was in Shido's palace with two letters of recommendation. This game possessed me and I can't believe it's finally over. I might start working on the platinum tonight because I don't think I'm ready to be done.
TheMrPliskin
Member
SoulUnison
Banned
I just realized something that really underwhelmed me about the final sequence.
The Phantom Thieves never really "stick up" for Joker against Yaldabaoth.
In P3
In P4
In P5 nobody ever really addresses the scale/intensity of what's happening, and you only get to see the small number of non-party member confidants cheering on the party. Your in-party Confidants get nothing extra here for being Max'd.
A lot of what happens feels sort of unearned because you're not really shown enough of the people affected and how they tie into you and your crew.
The Phantom Thieves never really "stick up" for Joker against Yaldabaoth.
In P3
you get all the party members cheering MC on in the background, willing to die in his place, leading up to Shinjiro's "Let's do this" from beyond the grave.
In P4
you get the other party members directly sacrificing themselves until only Yu is left, and then your party members that were also Social Links are included in the inspirational conga line.
In P5 nobody ever really addresses the scale/intensity of what's happening, and you only get to see the small number of non-party member confidants cheering on the party. Your in-party Confidants get nothing extra here for being Max'd.
A lot of what happens feels sort of unearned because you're not really shown enough of the people affected and how they tie into you and your crew.
Cannon_Fodder
Member
I see your point about your teammates, but I'd argue that for the non-party confidants the quality of what they do is way more impactful than the inspirational congo line from earlier titles. P3&P4
I thought your non-party member links coming to you in a dream was more silly than heartwarming. "It's good to see you Naoki, but how do you even know that I'm about to be killed by Izanami right now?" kinda thing.
The solution in P5 is still silly, but I know why people like Takemi or Mishima are cheering me on right at that second. Plus, I liked that it linked the confidants to the world around them, rather than having them having an impact on the MC and the MC alone.
Different strokes I guess.
Persona 5 is going for something entirely different with its endgame cheering. The Confidants are not just cheering for you, the player, but for the Phantom Thieves as a whole. The whole point is that your group is finally acknowledged after an entire game's worth of people doubting your existence. It's not a power trip for the player, but for everyone (hence why the final boss fails to damage the entire party, not just Joker). To be honest, I like how they didn't try to stroke your ego again for the 3rd time in a row.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
P3 and p4 don't have floral pants man to pick me up when i fall though.
StarCreator
Member
Er where did you hear this? Rejecting the deal gets you the "Fin." credit scroll. Accepting the deal, or failing to prevent yourself from being murdered in the interrogation room, gives the "End." credit scroll with Mementos music. It's pretty clear to me rejecting the deal is the canonical, intended ending.
Autoignition
Member
You're thinking of Sae's deal, not Yaldabaoth's.
StarCreator
Member
Both give you the same credit scroll.
Autoignition
Member
If by that you mean they end the game, that's true, but they do have very different outcomes.
If you take Yaldabaoth's deal, there's a whole extended cutscene about the fallout. Joker's actually kinda scary in it. But with Sae's deal, Akechi just mercs Joker and it ends.
StarCreator
Member
I'm not arguing any of that. I'm replying to someone who thinks the Yaldaboeth deal ending is canonical, citing the bad end credit roll as proof it isn't.
Have to disagree with this. P5 is so much more about society as a whole accepting the concept of rebelling against apathy, so the fact that your confidants and society start accepting the idea of the phantom thieves, giving the protag the ability to summon the "ultimate rebel" is pretty rad.
However, if it stopped there, I'd probably be disappointed. Thankfully, the scenes AFTER that, where the rest of the team puts together a plan to free Joker from juvenile hall and your confidants all play a part of the activism, are a pretty strong connection to the overall plot and lets you see how well the cast is connected to your plight in this game.
In fact, I'd say it's more earned than P4's. P3's is pretty dang special though, and hard to top. That said, P5's resolution still rings pretty strongly with me and I think it makes its case a little better than P4's.
So I've got more thoughts on the story than just this but... why is the reaction to a literal god appearing over Tokyo whilst hell is unleashed so tame? Why did it seem like nobody rememebered it afterwards? What happened to all the people who disappeared? Please explain because either I blacked out and missed a bunch of stuff or I'm just dumb.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Something something cognition.
On a serious note, there is panic once their cognition is broken.
I wrote a bunch of stuff about what I think the ending is about here, but the relevant bit for you is: