Think you both misunderstood. I could see the reasoning for why they saw it as normal at first (I agree, it's a good metaphor) but I don't see why the public just goes back to normal literally a few hours after the PT beats Control God. Morgana's voice and the few cognition-changing events show that any changes in cognition last at least a day or two both ways yet that isn't the case for a literal god appearing in Hell-Tokyo. There's also the matter of everyone disappearing. Are they just stuck in the Velvet Room now or what?
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[SPOILERS] Persona 5 Spoiler Thread | Steal your heart; steel yourself
- Thread starter Nachos
- Start date
Think you both misunderstood. I could see the reasoning for why they saw it as normal at first (I agree, it's a good metaphor) but I don't see why the public just goes back to normal literally a few hours after the PT beats Control God. Morgana's voice and the few cognition-changing events show that any changes in cognition last at least a day or two both ways yet that isn't the case for a literal god appearing in Hell-Tokyo. There's also the matter of everyone disappearing. Are they just stuck in the Velvet Room now or what?
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Didn't it have some to do with why morgana kinda disappeared at first too? Like it was wiped from their cognitive mind or something so they can't remember it?
I did like that the Phan Site ends at 50%. Seemed like a way to say "maybe you changed things, maybe you didn't" and considering P3/4/5 basically have the same problems just slightly different (everyone wants to die or don't care about living, people care not about the truth just what they want to see, and complacency in society), it's likely nothing's actually changed.
I'm not sure. Think I'm gonna just put it down to "It's cognition, ain't gotta explain shit." I'm confused about the why but even then I just find it disappointing how the final area and boss had so little literal impact on the proceeding story. Just felt like the game couldn't figure out how to conclude the story without erasing the fantastical elements altogether alongside all but the Phantom Thieve's recollection of it all.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
TBF my ideal ending would be Yald is destroyed, but then nothing changes, and suddenly countless angel demons like metatron descend down from the skies, this fucker appears:
Cut to close up of P5MC grimacing, and then cut to:
SMT for switch, releasing 12/01/2017
Then SMT for switch is actually every Persona crew living in post-apocalyptic japan.
Cut to close up of P5MC grimacing, and then cut to:
SMT for switch, releasing 12/01/2017
Then SMT for switch is actually every Persona crew living in post-apocalyptic japan.
Bronetta
Ask me about the moon landing or the temperature at which jet fuel burns. You may be surprised at what you learn.
I lent Persona 5 to a friend and he asked for tips. The only thing I told him was to not leave the calling card to the last day.
He texts me today "omg I waited too long on that calling card dammit".
I was like I did warn you about that. He goes "but the game says TAKE YOUR TIME".
I had a hearty laugh lol.
He texts me today "omg I waited too long on that calling card dammit".
I was like I did warn you about that. He goes "but the game says TAKE YOUR TIME".
I had a hearty laugh lol.
Iva Demilcol
Member
In P3 many people melted when Nyx came and afterwards nobody seemed to remember anything either... I guess it happened the same in this case.
It's true that the game does a shite job of explaining things here. What I think is supposed to be happening is that Morgana, using, I dunno, Velvet Room Cat Magic, rewrites the world back to how it was prior to Mementos fusing with Tokyo using the Power of Cognition, except also making everyone a little more Woke in the process.
Maybe it's supposed to tie into getting the Mementos Treasure? Something with how the Holy Grail is said to grant wishes? I dunno. It feels like the writers just forgot to actually write this part.
I think the P3 and P5 teams start off with aspirations to change things on a macro scale in how society perceives their lives. But this is impossible. However, their respective endings show that they can have very large effects on people's lives on a micro scale, and thus they vow to continue to do so, changing how people think one step at a time.
So I wouldn't say nothing changed. A lot changed. They don't change the world, but they do so for the people who are close to them, and those people will also change the lives of others who are close to them accordingly.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
I mean getting rid of shido and akechi probably changed the world quite a lot.
Also in the case of P3 preventing Instrumentality is changing the world.
I never finished P3 (sorry!) so I don't know exactly but it's a shame if the same story flaw happened again.
That's probably what happened, yeah. To me the JRPG theatrics and the low-key epilogue were totally at odds with each other. As you said Morgana's cat-magic only really made people slightly more aware of Shido's crimes, is that all killing the manifestation of society's collective desires did?
The more I think about it, outside of the cool metaphorical stuff mentioned above, the final area (both Mementos and Shibuya) and the final boss felt like they were there just for the sake of it. It's a Persona game so of course the team had to fight a literal god during a literal apocalypse at the end. Don't get me wrong it was all hype as fuck and I loved it in the moment but afterwards my feelings are a bit more lukewarm.
Just finished the game, 80:06 hrs and played on easy until Holy Grail then switched to the lowest because I was a bit burned out.
Overall I really enjoyed it, solid 9/10.
Loved the music and style. Story was decent but got very SMT at the end with the God-things and Monas story arc finale. I did like the overall message the story conveyed though, kind of ties in nicely with all the political shit going on in the world today.
I don't have that "empty" felling like I did with P4 though, where the ending started rolling and I was sad because I wanted more time with the characters. I don't know, P5 felt fulfilling but just in a different way.
I'll make my way back through for a second play later in the year when I finish catching up with games.
Overall I really enjoyed it, solid 9/10.
Loved the music and style. Story was decent but got very SMT at the end with the God-things and Monas story arc finale. I did like the overall message the story conveyed though, kind of ties in nicely with all the political shit going on in the world today.
I don't have that "empty" felling like I did with P4 though, where the ending started rolling and I was sad because I wanted more time with the characters. I don't know, P5 felt fulfilling but just in a different way.
I'll make my way back through for a second play later in the year when I finish catching up with games.
Not too sure that's what Bladenic was talking about. I thought they were referring more towards society's overall perception, which is ultimately what P3, P4 and P5 are addressing. This is in extension to the actual conflict, which obviously changes the world since all three teams save the world.
The aspect of "maybe society didn't change all that much" is explored a lot in Persona 3's The Answer, where SEES comes to understand that they have to work as they can in the real world to change it, and it won't just change overnight.
KO Traveling Hobo
Member
TBF my ideal ending would be Yald is destroyed, but then nothing changes, and suddenly countless angel demons like metatron descend down from the skies, this fucker appears:
Cut to close up of P5MC grimacing, and then cut to:
SMT for switch, releasing 12/01/2017
Then SMT for switch is actually every Persona crew living in post-apocalyptic japan.
Does it end with a rhythm game against giant naked YHWH in medieval Europe?
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Yeah, it turns out that every persona mc were actually aspects split from the the original persona mc.
Aigis will later appear to help you get to the right timeline.
Lunafreya Nox Fleuret
Member
Part of me actually wishes that Shido was the final boss but then it would contradict the whole chosen by God thing 
Sorry, I just wasn't feeling Yaldabaoth's theme as a final boss theme. If it had been Rivers in the Desert which plays during Shido's ascension to Samael, that would have been better. They basically gave the better villain the better theme and the final boss the worse theme. However, the transition in the final boss ost is epic but everything else is a bit meh.
Sorry, I just wasn't feeling Yaldabaoth's theme as a final boss theme. If it had been Rivers in the Desert which plays during Shido's ascension to Samael, that would have been better. They basically gave the better villain the better theme and the final boss the worse theme. However, the transition in the final boss ost is epic but everything else is a bit meh.Juliano2016
Member
Still gagging that Igor had a f'ed up voice because he was an evil God. That was the biggest foreshadowing ever
StarCreator
Member
I laughed pretty hard when Yusuke just walked up to the group in Hawaii like nothing's wrong though.
I wish my high school did trips to foreign countries like that.
I wish my high school did trips to foreign countries like that.
ShadowSoldier89
Member
yea it was obviously intentional, didnt make it an enjoyable scene.
Iva Demilcol
Member
I spent an Afternoon with Hifumi Togo in Hawai.
Totally worth it.
Totally worth it.
I thought the moment when the world is engulfed by the white light when Morgana disappears was the world going through a backup copy of sorts.
Lunafreya Nox Fleuret
Member
What rank do you need her at for this?
Dat holy grail transform music. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L9PfjzcDmFQ
Maybe 5-7ish? I got this event too, and hadn't even unlocked her Mementos request at the time.
If you hang out with Ryuji during summer break and make him coffee in the evening, he actually likes it. He makes a point to go "Man, who would've thought I would actually like coffee!?"
Lunafreya Nox Fleuret
Member
Oh, I was unable to rank her up for some time because I didn't have the correct stat. I'm sure that's why I missed it. I'm sure she was a high rank but before the stat blocked one.
semiconscious
Gold Member
nah, they didn't forget. they just had no idea how to explain it, & simply carried on as tho it wasn't there
...p5 was fun, but really fell short of p3/p4 as far as the story-telling went, imo...
StarCreator
Member
I'm not sure why, but this is my second attempt at getting through Persona 4 and I'm already kind of bored with it. There's just something about the day to day activities Persona 5 did better that I can't quite put my finger on.
Isaac Otherworld
Member
Iva Demilcol
Member
Sorry, didn't see your message earlier, I believe she's rank 5 or 6 (possibly six).
I started my replay and finished first dungeon. Man I remember now how much I like Ryuji at first. He also suffers like Yosuke in that he's way better in his S.Link than the story. But like up to now, Ryuji is a super bro who's also highly respectful and caring towards Ann. Not till later does he start being a stupid ass perv with a loud ass mouth.
Whoa there, I never said that or thought that. The true ending is always always the canonical one.
However as I said before and as listed on other websites Yaldaboeth's deal, rejecting or accepting, is not seen as a "bad" ending. It either leads to the "good" ending or the "true ending".
Autoignition
Member
This was me with Ryuji too, tbh. I started off liking him and then at one point in the story I guess Atlus decided to say fuck it and fell back on all of the gross obnoxious anime tropes that generally make up his archetype of character instead of, you know, moving forward with his character in a way that feels ideologically consistent with the Kamoshida arc.
StarCreator
Member
What other websites claim that? I don't see how the Yaldaboeth deal ending can be seen as good, especially since it shares the same credit scroll as the ending where you get shot in the head.
The only issue with Ryuji's characterization is how they sell him out in order to indulge in shitty anime jokes (which are like what, a couple of occasions at most?). And none of those moments even come close to matching his great moments in the narrative, even post Kamoshida.
The idea that Ryuji somehow regresses post Kamoshida dungeon will always be the worst take. Even if you disregard the fact that letting things go to his head is a blatant part of his character arc, I didn't need Ryuji to be a super bro. I don't need him to be Yosuke 2.0 or even a nice guy. His character works best as the ball of passion to kick the group forward. The game's raw anger, personified.
The idea that Ryuji somehow regresses post Kamoshida dungeon will always be the worst take. Even if you disregard the fact that letting things go to his head is a blatant part of his character arc, I didn't need Ryuji to be a super bro. I don't need him to be Yosuke 2.0 or even a nice guy. His character works best as the ball of passion to kick the group forward. The game's raw anger, personified.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
I would want a less dumb ball of anger, but yes, i don't think ryuji has ever just been a super buddy buddy guy more so than the main source of passion.
Autoignition
Member
I'm one of those people who doesn't necessarily have a problem with his loudmouthed anger (though I did tire of it real fast -- but that's more of a personal taste thing than an actual issue with the writing). I am legit just pressed about the creepy anime tropes that get put on him. He's so outraged by how the girls treated by Kamoshida and then spends the rest of the game creeping on Ann, trying to pick up girls when they're clearly not interested, wanting to use his fame to get laid, etc. It is regressive. As much as we'd all like to handwave away those parts of his character as "eh it's just silly anime bullshit" it doesn't actually erase the fact that it's very much a present and consistent problem with his writing.
"Spends the rest of the game creeping on Ann" is patently untrue, though. He has 3 notable instances of where he creeps on Ann, and all of them are shitty comedy gag moments that aren't funny. If anything, his interactions with Ann are pretty good, since it's a non-gimmicky guy/girl relationship that's layered with familiarity and a strong friendship.
I just emphatically disagree with his character regressing after the first arc. His conceit is helping the helpless, and that literally never changes (though he definitely loses sight of said goal and becomes conceited). There seems to be this weird sentiment wherein Ryuji personally being disgusted by Kamoshida's warped treatment of highschool girls somehow conflicts with his perverted moments later on. I mean it's a somewhat misguided mindset, but there's still a HUGE different between Kamoshida's actions and Ryuji's idiotic perversions. And real talk, I don't expect an idiot like Ryuji (
But there's a follow up to that
I can't get enough of that shit. It's all part of a character arc that actually amounts to something in the end.
Autoignition
Member
I'm just going to agree to disagree here because I don't think I have the strength to get into an argument about how passing something off as a gag doesn't absolve the writing, or how the writing surrounding Ryuji could've done more to call out his crap about his double-standard re: his treatment of girls.
Though I one thing I will take active contention with is the idea that Akechi's the only boy who doesn't obnoxiously hit on the ladies. Yusuke doesn't do it, and I wouldn't put Morgana under that umbrella, either. Mona has a crush on Ann, but it's just Ann, and it's a pretty innocent crush, all things considered. (Is it weird that I liken it to a kid crushing on his babysitter?)
Though I one thing I will take active contention with is the idea that Akechi's the only boy who doesn't obnoxiously hit on the ladies. Yusuke doesn't do it, and I wouldn't put Morgana under that umbrella, either. Mona has a crush on Ann, but it's just Ann, and it's a pretty innocent crush, all things considered. (Is it weird that I liken it to a kid crushing on his babysitter?)
I'm not absolving the writing at all. There are issues with how Persona 5 treats its women, straight up. I'm just arguing against the assertion that Ryuji spends all of his time creeping on Ann post Kamoshida. His 3 gag moments are indefensible, but they're also a small drop in the bucket that is his entire character (where literally all of his non-gag moments are in service to his character). The fact that the game has its characters freak out about the way Kamoshida treats women only to objectify them later on is more a writing issue in general, rather than a character issue native to Ryuji. I'm with you on the writing not doing anything to call out his lecherous crap (or anyone's for that matter). It would have been nice if it wasn't in the game period as well.
HRMPH?
- Yusuke and Joker outright ogle Ann and Makoto's sweaty backs.
- Joker also indulges in the "picking up babes" shit with Ryuji during the beach event.
- Morgana tries to look up Ann's skirt as well.
- Joker can date like 8 girls and Sojiro's like "oh you, lol" and actually cover for you
- Seriously, Joker is hilariously thirsty for girls in general lmao
Autoignition
Member
I don't remember mentioning Joker in this, so I'm not sure where that argument is coming from. I don't recall Mona looking up Ann's skirt at any point, either, so I'll need a refresher on that.
Yusuke's reaction in the car scene is definitely up for debate. To me, it looks like he's trying to make sure that Makoto's not passed out at the wheel.
Big [citation needed] on Akechi, too.
Antiwhippy
the holder of the trombone
Besides, akechi's heart only yearns for joker.
Re: Joker
Oh my bad, I misread a part of your post.
Re: Mona
The proof is in the hotpot.
Re: Yusuke
The sound he makes when checking her out implies otherwise. But...argh, I can't leave Yusuke out to dry, so i'll fess up and admit that he later makes the admission that he was checking out the pyramid view instead of Makoto. (Freaking Yusuke)
Re: Akechi
I was just wanted an excuse to post that screen, haha. Definitely not being serious here.
Re: Futaba
Even Futaba can't help herself (I'm not serious with this either).
PREACH
Autoignition
Member
Okay, first of all, that Yusuke gif is adorable and how dare you.
And second of all, that Yusuke gif is adorable and how dare you.
Basically canon.
And second of all, that Yusuke gif is adorable and how dare you.
I'm shook.
Basically canon.
Marmaladefire
Member
Yusuke is such a good boy all around. My favorite thing is him trying to get the thieves to humble themselves towards the end of the game. It fits well with his backstory, and making him the moral center of the team when Makoto is in quiet rage mode actually works pretty well.
Cannon_Fodder
Member
I'm not denying the problems with the game's treatment of women--because hoo boy--but as far as Ryuji goes, I definitely think he's less of a pervert than other "buddy" characters like Yosuke or early-mid game Junpei. I really appreciated how little he talks about girls in general, it's a lot less tedious that way. Felt like they wanted to include that pervy stuff, but condensed in down into a few scenes, rather than spreading it out so every conversation was about getting laid.