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[lunchwithyuzo]

Academia is the prime example of why towns in rpgs nowadays are pointless. They're fluff and filler that hold nothing but npcs that add no story and artificially spread out merchant options. Srpgs handle them the best way - a menu for each important thing and a neat little picture in the back. All the "immersion" I need. Rabanastre sure looks fuckin cool but in the grand scheme it's a giant time sink for walking time.

Dungeon Crawlers too. I'll be honest, I'm fine without "real" towns.

 

[I'm an expert]

Dungeon Crawlers too. I'll be honest, I'm fine without "real" towns.

Truf. No towns and merchant at save point were great at streamlinging the content of 13. One of the better things it does.

 

[Narolf]

lol, no. FFXIII's claustrophic linearity was a direct outgrowth of HD asset creation. This is a pretty well known fact, and why the game's development cycle was so inherently problematic.

Not only that. There were also deliberately chosen orientations in the game's design behind this decision, XIII aiming at being very story-driven in comparison to XII. I'm sure they would've been able to pull XIII-2's towns for XIII just fine. Sad a backlash had to be necessary.

 

[Coxy]

the mobile games are clearly selling on the sheer quality of gameplay and content they provide, not the brand names attached to them, it should be completely sustainable to rely on those going forward, good job SE

 

[RSLAEV]

The public opinion of SE has never been so low, to a point that is now irreversible. I get people who are following the series/firm ever since their dear childhood are saddened by how both go further to shit with each mainline entry, but their attitude falls in line with spoiled brats' behavior in my book. The stuff I read while I go on my lurking spree... "GAF made me hate XIII games more than the very act of playing them!", "unhealthy consideration over a FF that is yet to be released!", etc. Unhealthy? Really now? Thought the second degree was obvious enough, but apparently not.

Ceiling Narolf is watching you fap, and that is no fan-fiction.

I mean, come on guys, live and let live. You will then complain on how this forum gets negative at times, while you actively nurture said negativity, moreover when you start ganging up against specific individuals (LuuKyK) for no apparent reason other than for him defending his favorite things. I know the guy had its stubborn moments at times, that he stanned Lightning as if she were an idol of all sorts... but I don't see how that is more "childish" than the zeal people exert on this forum in general while they are fond of something in particular.

I've never put all that much stock into "my FF is better than yours" meta-debates because of that kind of shenanigans. Made even worse by the fact you guys will then always purchase the games day one just for the sake to be first at crying a river upon how terrible they are? Start by acknowledging your own contradictions before being all that judgmental towards others.

Wrap it up guys. we're all spoiled negative brats and we ruined Square.

vvvvvvv how about I don't?

 

[Narolf]

Thanks for proving my point. Read it again now.

 

[MakeMeFeelAlive]

Square Enix is being run poorly. If they want to make money, they need to just people what they want. They should follow the Demon's Soul plan. Make a game that caters to your main buyers. Have Versus come out on the ps3 or ps4 and make sure its a good game. Theyll profit significantly with sony buyers. Then take your profits and put it into developing a good multi platform game. And sell a crap load of games. Stay away from these ridiculous FF games no one cares about. This fascination hey have with FF13 and Lightning character is beyond me

 

[evangd007]

How to right the ship: call up the Gooch and ask him how much money he needs to remake Final Fantasy 7, then ask him if he wants cash or a check.

 

[Narolf]

vvvvvvv how about I don't?

All fine and dandy.

Lunchwithyuzo...

That would not have been an issue at all on Wii and/or PS2, and the resulting game likely would have been far, far different. The game also likely would've been cellshaded given what we know of the PS2 rev that actually was in development, so "uglier" might be in the eye of the beholder. Wind Waker and Okami still look pretty damn pleasing imo.

...would you still have made XIII a mainline entry if that were to be the case?

 

[I'm an expert]

How to right the ship: call up the Gooch and ask him how much money he needs to remake Final Fantasy 7, then ask him if he wants cash or a check.

Said it before and I'll say it again. Do not want.

 

[farnham]

Academia is the prime example of why towns in rpgs nowadays are pointless. They're fluff and filler that hold nothing but npcs that add no story and artificially spread out merchant options. Srpgs handle them the best way - a menu for each important thing and a neat little picture in the back. All the "immersion" I need. Rabanastre sure looks fuckin cool but in the grand scheme it's a giant time sink for walking time.

Towns give you the impression that you are living in a real world and helps you immerse yourself in the storytelling as a whole.

 

[Meccanical]

Towns give you the impression that you are living in a real world and helps you immerse yourself in the storytelling as a whole.

Don't bother trying to talk to him about towns.

 

[Coxy]

Wrap it up guys. we're all spoiled negative brats and we ruined Square.

vvvvvvv how about I don't?

also it would have sold better if we didnt buy it day one

 

[I'm an expert]

Towns give you the impression that you are living in a real world and helps you immerse yourself in the storytelling as a whole.

Listen to Meccanical. "Living in a real world" lol. Towns are a gimmick. You can do much better world building without the use of some static buildings.

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

All fine and dandy.

Lunchwithyuzo...

...would you still have made XIII a mainline entry in that case?

After XI, I think they can get away calling any game anything they want. XIII was originally a PS2 game after all.

Hell, I still think rebranding Versus as XV might not be a bad idea. Just get it out the door and make some money before Agni's Bankruptcy.

 

[Narolf]

also it would have sold better if we didnt buy it day one

Don't give yourself too much credit, mate.

 

[Zeal]

Square should just do everyone a favor at this point and go exclusively mobile so no one would give a fuck anymore.

That, or just show Versus and watch everyone magically start buying your games. You know, the one game people have been literally fighting to hear about for oh, seven years?

Fuck you, Square.

 

[Shinta]

Fuck you, Square.

But they let you see Versus, and you're still mad?

 

[edwardslane]

Square enix destroyed a amazing company image somehow during the ps2 era and continuing in the ps3 etc etc..

It's a shame because some of my best memories as a kid were their RPGs..

Luckily other companies have stepped up!

Just bought Fire Emblem : Awakening for 3ds last night.. such a great game.. Amazing production values.. Too bad they haven't made a final fantasy Tactics game up to this quality in awhile. FF Tactics was great in it's day.. the GBA/DS ones etc weren't too bad either

 

[Shosai]

Kind of funny how they make the yellow lines turn corners for no reason. If they just connected the zones, it would be pretty linear.

A lot of that is just the load screens making the city seem bigger than it actually is.

I'm pretty sure the yellow lines turn corners to reduce the image size.

But the value of a town doesn't come from its square footage. It comes from their function, both as a narrative mechanic and as a game mechanic. As I explained, as a game mechanic, towns exist to break up the action and give you a place to recollect thoughts, items, plotlines and yes buy stuff. As a narrative mechanic, it defines humanity's anchor in a strange universe. Nearly person and thing in Besaid serves a vital function in introducing the player to Spira.

Why does the Crusader's lodge happen to be located there, as opposed to some other town 10 hours into the game? Because the player needs to be introduced to the Crusaders as soon as possible. Not because the Crusaders ever do anything important in the plot itself, but they are there to show firsthand the futility of humanity's fight against Sin to tell the player the scope of the threat. We don't have to read about the Crusaders in a codex, we meet them firsthand.

Wakka's house is there, to justify introducing Wakka to you at the start of the game. He acts as a direct guide for Tidus (and the player), AND gives a human face to the bigoted attitudes that exist against the Al Behd. We don't have to read about popular prejudices under a codex entry titled "Spira Culture", we get to see them acted out in front of us.

Besaid is home of the Cloister of Trials to justify having Yuna there. Yuna and her entourage are there not just to give us more party members, but to teach us about summoners and the pilgrimage and define our ultimate goal. We don't have to read about these topics in a codex, we see them firsthand.

 

[CorvoSol]

That's literally the only difference. Not being able to backtrack is pretty low on the list of FFXIII's problems.

It's a rather significant difference when added in to the mix of XIII's myriad problems. The reason XIII catches flak for being linear but X doesn't is because it isn't as obvious in X. In X there's a lot to do, and if I want to go back to Besaid when I'm in Bevelle, I can feasibly do that.

But you're right, when compared to XIII's many other failings, it's probably the least of its problems.

And saying FFX has an airship is pretty disingenuous. Does FFXII also have an airship?

I confess that it's not an airship in the classical sense, but in X you DO get an "airship" which opens previously unexplorable areas. So yes, I suppose it is disingenuous to call it an airship, especially when IX had something like 3. But compared to XIII's cut-scene only-good-for-less-than-X's "airship" it's still the better of the two.

And I cannot in good faith comment on XII, as it has been at least 5 years since I played it. I'll be getting back to it this Summer, I expect, but at the moment, I cannot say if XII's airship ever opened areas you couldn't go to afoot. I know XII had teleport crystals that rendered using Aerodromes pointless after a point, though. XII's lack of airships, from what I recall, was pretty disappointing.

 

[Narolf]

After XI, I think they can get away calling any game anything they want. XIII was originally a PS2 game after all.

Right, but as you've put it yourself, XIII would have been severely downgraded if it had to be released either on the Wii or PS2. Game may still have been untouched intrinsically (linearity, no towns, etc.), graphics would have obviously been miles away from what we have now. Granted, would you have made it a mainline entry then?

 

[Rpgmonkey]

The post mortem on Versus will be a very fucking interesting read I tell you that.

Yeah it's one of the main reasons I want this game to come out.

Ignoring obvious obstacles like FFXIV, it'll be fascinating to see what went wrong, what delayed the project, and what they wanted to do but couldn't because the game's been in the oven long enough, or they overestimated the hardware.

 

[Toth]

Towns are not that necessary for world immersion. FF 13's datalogs were basically what town NPCs would say, just condensed. Look at Ni No Kuni. The Towns are beautiful and stunning but are, in actuallty, just open spaces with a few NPCs and shops. The world and art itself makes the game so fantastic. I don't need a grand town to suck me in. Rabanastre in 12 was awesome and grand but became a bit troublesome to navigate when all I wanted to do was go to the bazaar or the clan HQ.

 

[farnham]

Listen to Meccanical. "Living in a real world" lol. Towns are a gimmick. You can do much better world building without the use of some static buildings.

Well usually you would say people live in buildings. If you are going to tell me that there is a story in the game you better make it exciting and action nonstop or you make it believable

By your definition openworld games would not need buildings either and should be marginalized to the map

Towns are not that necessary for world immersion. FF 13's datalogs were basically what town NPCs would say, just condensed. Look at Ni No Kuni. The Towns are beautiful and stunning but are, in actuallty, just open spaces with a few NPCs and shops. The world itself makes it so stunning. I don't need a grand town to suck me in. Rabanastre in 12 was awesome and brand but became a bit troublesome to navigate when all I wanted to do was go to the bazaar or the clan HQ.

Yeah sure but the whole thing felt a lot more staged.

Square enix destroyed a amazing company image somehow during the ps2 era and continuing in the ps3 etc etc..

It's a shame because some of my best memories as a kid were their RPGs..

Luckily other companies have stepped up!

Just bought Fire Emblem : Awakening for 3ds last night.. such a great game.. Amazing production values.. Too bad they haven't made a final fantasy Tactics game up to this quality in awhile. FF Tactics was great in it's day.. the GBA/DS ones etc weren't too bad either

Yeah what happened after FFTA2?

 

[JCV]

Since they're out of new platforms to release their FF rererererereleases, they should invest in creating a new console just to re-release all their FF games. Then they should release iOS spinoffs based on those rererererereleases.

Thank me later Square.

 

[Shinta]

I'm pretty sure the yellow lines turn corners to reduce the image size.

But the value of a town doesn't come from its square footage. It comes from their function, both as a narrative mechanic and as a game mechanic. As I explained, as a game mechanic, towns exist to break up the action and give you a place to recollect thoughts, items, plotlines and yes buy stuff. As a narrative mechanic, it defines humanity's anchor in a strange universe. Nearly person and thing in Besaid serves a vital function in introducing the player to Spira.

Why does the Crusader's lodge happen to be located there, as opposed to some other town 10 hours into the game? Because the player needs to be introduced to the Crusaders as soon as possible. Not because the Crusaders ever do anything important in the plot itself, but they are there to show firsthand the futility of humanity's fight against Sin to tell the player the scope of the threat. We don't have to read about the Crusaders in a codex, we meet them firsthand.

Wakka's house is there, to justify introducing Wakka to you at the start of the game. He acts as a direct guide for Tidus (and the player), AND gives a human face to the bigoted attitudes that exist against the Al Behd. We don't have to read about popular prejudices under a codex entry titled "Spira Culture", we get to see them acted out in front of us.

Besaid is home of the Cloister of Trials to justify having Yuna there. Yuna and her entourage are there not just to give us more party members, but to teach us about summoners and define our ultimate goal. We don't have to read about these topics in a codex, we see them firsthand.

I don't really buy the argument that towns are critical for pacing, or that pacing even matters that much to most people. Look at most open world games like Skyrim. You don't really have pacing. You don't really even have to go to towns unless you want to. Story is almost irrelevant.

You may personally want linear games with towns spread out evenly in a way that emphasizes pacing, but you don't speak for everyone. RE4 is often credited as being one of the best paced games ever, and it doesn't have anything like towns in JRPGs. The pacing in that game is closer to FFXIII than FFX. Some people who just want to get through the game think the pacing in XIII is better, because it trims some of the fat and they can just get through the main story and finish the game. I'm really fine either way, and I can enjoy games that try different approaches to game design and storytelling.

I just think in the context of this conversation it's moving the goal post so people can keep complaining about a game from 2009.

 

[ambientmystic]

I'm pretty sure the yellow lines turn corners to reduce the image size.

But the value of a town doesn't come from its square footage. It's a matter of function, both as a narrative mechanic and as a game mechanic. As I explained, as a game mechanic, towns exist to break up the action and give you a place to recollect thoughts, items, plotlines and yes buy stuff. As a narrative mechanic, it defines humanity's anchor in a strange universe. Nearly person and thing in Besaid serves a vital function in introducing the player to Spira.

Why does the Crusader's lodge happen to be located there, as opposed to some other town 10 hours into the game? Because the player needs to be introduced to the Crusaders as soon as possible. Not because the Crusaders ever do anything important in the plot itself, but they are there to show firsthand the futility of humanity's fight against Sin to tell the player the scope of the threat. We don't have to read about the Crusaders in a codex, we meet them firsthand.

Wakka's house is there, to justify introducing Wakka to you at the start of the game. He acts as a direct guide for Tidus (and the player), AND gives a human face to the bigoted attitudes that exist against the Al Behd. We don't have to read about popular prejudices under a codex entry titled "Spira Culture", we get to see them acted out in front of us.

Besaid is home of the Cloister of Trials to justify having Yuna there. Yuna and her entourage are there not just to give us more party members, but to teach us about summoners and define our ultimate goal. We don't have to read about these topics in a codex, we see them firsthand.

Excellent post mate.

FF X has never left me wanting for a purpose when I played it. Every moment in the game was well crafted, every location conceived and conceptualized for a reason. Nothing that required delving into Codexes like FF XIII, which seemed rather aimless in comparison.

FF XIII really lacked a solid direction in storyline progression and the introduction and development of it's protagonists and antagonists (Cid for example, appears for about two scenes, then we fight him, and that's it? What're his motivations? That other lady mini boss character also comes to mind. Very underwhelming antagonists in FF XIII.) now that I think about it.

Whatever guiding hand that directed FF X very well was sorely missing in the genesis of FF XIII.

 

[Meccanical]

Nojima.

Nojima was missing from FFXIII.

It's why the game's concept is good yet the actual execution is not.

Toriyama didn't come up with the concept so he can't even be given credit for that.

 

[Zeal]

But they let you see Versus, and you're still mad?

They let me see a horribly animated Lightning slide down a stripper pole.

Nomura: PLEASE BE ANTICIPATE.

 

[Meccanical]

Nomura: PLEASE BE ANTICIPATE.

Nomura: BECOME EXCITEMENT

 

[DJIzana]

They let me see a horribly animated Lightning slide down a stripper pole.

Nomura: PLEASE BE ANTICIPATE.

I think you need some more pink haired characters, man!

...

Oh wait...

 

[evangd007]

Right, but as you've put it yourself, XIII would have been severely downgraded if it had to be released either on the Wii or PS2. Game may still have been untouched intrinsically (linearity, no towns, etc.), graphics would have obviously been miles away from what we have now. Would you still have made it a mainline entry then?

A PS2/Wii FFXIII would have been very different. They threw away all the development they did on the PS2 version of XIII and started from scratch after they did the FFVII demo, which took them 3-4 months alone. They had been working on the PS2 version since development finished on FFX-2 International.

edit: link: http://andriasang.com/comeud/ffxiii_ps2/

 

[lunchwithyuzo]

Right, but as you've put it yourself, XIII would have been severely downgraded if it had to be released either on the Wii or PS2. Game may still have been untouched intrinsically (linearity, no towns, etc.), graphics would have obviously been miles away from what we have now. Would you still have made it a mainline entry then?

I think you misunderstood what I was saying earlier. A PS2/Wii FFXIII wouldn't have just been a visually cut down FFXIII PS3/360, it would have been a different game entirely. FFXIII's game design was a result of SE's development process, where by assets were created internally first and the structure followed from that. The entire scope of the project would've changed on SD hardware, not just the graphics.

 

[jorgeton]

"Towns" themselves aren't necessary, but the respite they provide is I think. They're a nice breather from constant combat and dungeon traversal. Helps the ebb and flow of a game. One of XIII's biggest flaws is the fact that for the majority of the game there is no kind of break (outside of cut scenes). It's literally all fighting all the time. That may work in an FPS but not so much in an rpg.

 

[Zeal]

Didn't you get the memo. There's no HD towns.

Too hard.

Meanwhile, Level 5 with half the budget ended up making HD 'towns' more massive than some games. I wonder what Square has to say to them about Ni No Kumi.

 

[Shinta]

They let me see a horribly animated Lightning slide down a stripper pole.

Nomura: PLEASE BE ANTICIPATE.

So that was all total bullshit like we thought, got it.

A simple pole has to be a "stripper" pole now? You guys are ridiculous. Was Mario a stripper sliding down the flag pole on NES? What a joke.

Like I said, it'll be interesting to see what people make up so they can complain about cities in LR.

Didn't you get the memo. There's no HD towns.

Too hard.

I've copy and pasted my "towns" post twice on this board. Do I need to find it again?

You're really throwing out a lot of hot garbage lately.

 

[jorgeton]

Didn't you get the memo. There's no HD towns.

Too hard.

They will never live that statement down. What a bonehead thing to ever say.

FFXIII-2 had pretty good towns too...

 

[t-storm]

SE definitely reached the bottom of the barrel with All the Bravest. Hopefully after this earning's report, it's nowhere but up.

 

[jiggle]

they just need more Motomu is all

 

[PRjumpman124]

SE definitely reached the bottom of the barrel with All the Bravest. Hopefully after this earning's report, it's nowhere but up.

Maybe it's the slap in the face they need. Maybe.

 

[Meccanical]

I think I have a Motumor

 

[farnham]

No matter what FFXIII would have been on ps2 or wii.. It couldnt have been worse than FFXIII. A game that constantly promiises awesomeness through its high production values but always falls short to achieve an acceptable level of satisfaction. Its like a constant tease with immediate dissapointment. The sad thing is that i actually liked the battle system and the music a lot.

 

[Pachterballs]

not going to lie I bought FF:all the bravest. before checking the thread, i bought it. ROBBED.

never buying SE shit again.

 

[Narolf]

A PS2/Wii FFXIII would have been very different. They threw away all the development they did on the PS2 version of XIII and started from scratch after they did the FFVII demo, which took them 3-4 months alone. They had been working on the PS2 version since development finished on FFX-2 International.

edit: link: http://andriasang.com/comeud/ffxiii_ps2/

I think you misunderstood what I was saying earlier. A PS2/Wii FFXIII wouldn't have just been a visually cut down FFXIII PS3/360, it would have been a different game entirely. FFXIII's game design was a result of SE's development process, where by assets were created internally first and the structure followed from that. The entire scope of the project would've changed on SD hardware, not just the graphics.

Alright. I get the point now, and that confirms the backlash on you, Lunchwithyuzo, wasn't warranted at all. Clearly sheds light on the nature of the individuals we're cohabiting with in these threads.

Still, that also shows how SE chose to opt for the easy, coward route with XIII. Chances are, the so called "story-driven" orientation was mere damage-control to justify the 360 port, in order to allow them to downgrade the game on the sly.

 

[gamergirly]

No matter what FFXIII would have been on ps2 or wii.. It couldnt have been worse than FFXIII. A game that constantly promiises awesomeness through its high production values but always falls short to achieve an acceptable level of satisfaction. Its like a constant tease with immediate dissapointment. The sad thing is that i actually liked the battle system and the music a lot.

The high production values ended about 30% through the game. It was at that point where you decided your completion fate

 

[CorvoSol]

I think I have a Motumor

Wanna trade for my Hinochu?

 

[Meccanical]

Wanna trade for my Hinochu?

Sure he'll go great with my Nomupuff.

 

[SougoXIII]

I don't really buy the argument that towns are critical for pacing, or that pacing even matters that much to most people. Look at most open world games like Skyrim. You don't really have pacing. You don't really even have to go to towns unless you want to. Story is almost irrelevant.

You may personally want linear games with towns spread out evenly in a way that emphasizes pacing, but you don't speak for everyone. RE4 is often credited as being one of the best paced games ever, and it doesn't have anything like towns in JRPGs. The pacing in that game is closer to FFXIII than FFX. Some people who just want to get through the game think the pacing in XIII is better, because it trims some of the fat and they can just get through the main story and finish the game. I'm really fine either way, and I can enjoy games that try different approaches to game design and storytelling.

I just think in the context of this conversation it's moving the goal post so people can keep complaining about a game from 2009.

The problem with your post is that you're comparing the function of towns in a JRPG to Skyrim- a WRPG- and RE4- an action horror game. They are entire different genres (yes even WRPG but that's another point entirely). For your example, the towns in Skyrim don't matter because Skyrim is an Sandbox rpg. Nobody cares about the story or pacing because they're suppose to run off and do whatever the hell they want (In fact my friend spend 100 hours on Skyrim without even triggering the dragons.) That's a far cry from FFXIII and JRPGs in general where the narrative is the focus.

Regarding RE4, it is a action-horror game with 10-20 hours of gameplay. That's half the length FFXIII and most rpgs. You can't reasonably expect people to move from plotpoints to plotpoints for 40 hours in your game because they're get burn out and annoying not to mention losing interest in the story that you're desperately trying to tell because you haven't given them a breather to take it all in.

 

[SatelliteOfLove]

So....Final Fantasy XIII-IV Lightning's Never Left, anyone?