Square-Enix Q3/13: ¥5.7b/$61M loss amid console market, praises social/mobile/browser

May 11, 2012
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They probably cut out loads of stuff after the development nightmare. I suspect much of the plot was removed from the point where the party goes to Gran Pulse. That felt like a mid game point and then we ended up with "We can do it!" repetitions for the second half instead of anything meaningful. For a game that was supposed to focus on story, the story felt really half baked and incomplete.
Interestingly, I remember reading that Serah was also supposed to be a playable character. But constraints couldn't make it happen. Seems to tell me a lot of the plot was changed due to mishaps.
 
Aug 30, 2009
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I know FFXIV's troubled development is hurting them, but VSXIII being in limbo for almost 7 years is also crazy.

Was Dragon Quest X also a financial risk? At this rate, is waiting 5-10 years to make a profit off of DQX a good idea? DQX being a MMO is still a bizarre idea to me because as a longtime DQ fan, I know that in Japan parents love to play the series with their kids which is one of the reasons why it sells so much. Would parents pay a sub-fee to let their kids play this? Just want to throw that out there.

A numbered DQ game would've already sold in the millions by now and Kingdom Hearts 3 on consoles would've been HUGE! Missed opportunities.
 
Aug 17, 2009
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You know, SE could do a lot better in the HD consoles if they start porting and releasing their older games via PSN/XBLA like what Sega is doing now instead of trying to please the world crowd by Western development or "Western" development.

Like what I've said before, the JRPG market on digital consoles hasn't been tapped yet and there's a lot of potential. I think they'll do great if Secret of Mana, or Secret of Evermore, Treasure of Rudras, Chaos Rings, and Live-a-Live would do great on PSN/XBLA. Heck they could probably release an SNES collection (kinda like the Genesis collection) on PS3/PSV/360 and it will still do wonders.
 
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I feel Oerba is where the plot goes wrong. I mean, there are a lot of problems before that, but at that point it's painfully obvious. Because Hope is all "HEY WE SHOULD GO TO OERBA THAT IS WHERE ANSWERS."

And instead we get nothing but the villain saying "HEY WE NEED TO END THE GAME NOW BECAUSE REASON"

In an SNES RPG, that'd've been time for a second or third world map. In a PSX RPG that moment would've been a switching of discs. Instead it's a straight shot to a final dungeon, and it feels jarring, even with the rest of the game.
Interestingly, I remember reading that Serah was also supposed to be a playable character. But constraints couldn't make it happen. Seems to tell me a lot of the plot was changed due to mishaps.
Yes that was what it felt like. If FFXIII was a SNES or PS1 game, Cocoon would have been world map 1 (like in FFIII) and Gran Pulse could have been been world map 2. Instead they made Cocoon all corridorish while destroying half the locations and Gran Pulse a very nice but ultimately stale place because the side missions make you run through it so many timessssss...

It was clear that they were capable of making HD towns. They were present in FFXIII, just not as the places of respite and manual exposition like they had been in many RPGs. They however chose to make places even more linear than the ones in FFX. Gran Pulse showed that they were capable of making a location that was both pretty and had scale. Instead they never managed to extend that kind of technical prowess further. Had they been more organised, the failure that was Crystal Tools would not have gotten to them since they clearly managed to make something technically good even with the bad engine.

I know FFXIV's troubled development is hurting them, but VSXIII being in limbo for almost 7 years is also crazy.

Was Dragon Quest X also a financial risk? At this rate, is waiting 5-10 years to make a profit off of DQX a good idea? DQX being a MMO is still a bizarre idea to me because as a longtime DQ fan, I know that in Japan parents love to play the series with their kids which is one of the reasons why it sells so much. Would parents pay a sub-fee to let their kids play this? Just want to throw that out there.
DQX already made back its costs a while ago. They probably kept the costs low by using Crystal Tools and with the Wii I supposed the development power is far less than say FFXIII's.
 

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
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Well, everything you said was wrong, but more to the point, it's ignorant as can be. We're talking MARIO here. The series with the most variety of all video games ever. Do you want an FPS Mario? THERE IS one. Educational? THERE IS ONE. RPG? GOT THAT. ANY KIND OF SPORT? YEAH WE HAVE ALL OF THEM. RACING? YUP. Platforming? YOU BETCHA.

And here you are, bitching because the formula is somehow stale. Mario is all-encompassing. But let's pretend that somehow, your inevitably bitchy response "But I'm only talking about platformers!" is in any way valid. Understand, first, that I'm entertaining that more for when Jaxword comes along to argue with me than I am pretending anything you say is in any way valid.

Now, as I was saying Looking at JUST the platformers. You have literally shot yourself into a goddamn corner on this one. Sure, you can say Mario Galaxy is about collecting coins and stars and shizz, but then, you can also say ANY Final Fantasy is about collecting swords, fighting monsters and saving the world. Boiling a game down to its end goal is perhaps the most asinine form of appraisal of all time.

But beyond that, there's the hilariously incorrect claim that Mario Galaxy is 1)bite-sized levels and 2)somehow smaller than Mario Sunshine. Which is stunning, because Sunshine really DOES include "bite-sized" levels in terms of the levels without the FLUDD. What makes these levels noteworthy isn't length though, but difficulty. A platformer isn't about bloating the goddamn game with huge open worlds. It's about delivering a neat, tidy, platform jumping experience, which Mario Galaxy does.

Nevermind the fact that there are a plethora of courses between Galaxy 1 and 2 that are deviations from jumping in "gravity" as you so pin-headedly describe it, but about surfing around, flying on some bird thing, or rolling around on a giant marble. Forget all that for a moment and consider the fact that Galaxy delivers variety even as a platformer. There are huge differences between levels like Bowser's Castle and Purple Coins on Luigi. The Gusty Garden Galaxy isn't the same as The Perfect Run.



You know where this all shrivels up and dies and hopefully your posts with it, though? The fact that 13 wasn't meant to not have towns. They didn't CHOOSE to not include towns. They just fucked up so much during production that nobody bothered to make them. This is a game that HAD NO DISTINCT AGREEMENT UPON ITS FORM UNTIL AFTER THE DEMO CAME OUT. MERE MONTHS BEFORE THE GAME ACTUALLY LAUNCHED.

XIII is a horrible waste of potential and a foulup only overshadowed by XIV's magnificent crash shortly afterward.

Nothing about how crappy XIII is is some manner of styllistic suck. They didn't CHOOSE not to have towns, or back tracking, or a coherent plot, or the ability to turn left or right, or anything to that effect. They just plain screwed up.
What is the point of discussing opinions when you call me names and reduce my thoughts to shit? Even if I respond with my side I'm immediately "bitchy" lol. Internet or not, having a convo with you guys must be a barrel of monkeys.


You said that Galaxy was the opposite of earlier 3D Marios, then two sentences later, you say it's the same?

Make up your mind!
I said the scope of the level design was the opposite, while the objective of collecting the same items was the same. Hence, basic same game but with limited environments. Compared to earlier entries. Again, my opinion from playing the games and realizing the world exploration from 64 was missing.
 
Haha it's gaf gaming side, I'm used to it. I never "lose" arguments because I only state my opinions and never attack others'.
Can't tell whether you never "lose" or not, but keeping the discussion to the matter at hand is key, indeed. You need to be made of marble to discuss Final Fantasy while remaining cool-headed, moreover whenever your positions go against the Kagarmi's.


Reached the complex of steel's status not so long ago for one.
 

I'm an expert

Formerly worldrevolution. The only reason I am nice to anyone else is to avoid being banned.
Nov 26, 2008
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Can't tell whether you never "lose" or not, but keeping the discussion to the matter at hand is key, indeed. You need to be made of marble to discuss FF while remaining cool-headed, moreover when your positions go against the Kagarmi's.


Reached the steel case not so long ago for one.
Read corvosol's post above. "Discussion" at its best here lol. I keep truckin on, havin my opinions, enjoyin mah vidyas. It's easier when you're not a game crazed kid anymore and just an adult with a hobby.
 
Mar 31, 2007
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I know FFXIV's troubled development is hurting them, but VSXIII being in limbo for almost 7 years is also crazy.

Was Dragon Quest X also a financial risk? At this rate, is waiting 5-10 years to make a profit off of DQX a good idea? DQX being a MMO is still a bizarre idea to me because as a longtime DQ fan, I know that in Japan parents love to play the series with their kids which is one of the reasons why it sells so much. Would parents pay a sub-fee to let their kids play this? Just want to throw that out there.

A numbered DQ game would've already sold in the millions by now and Kingdom Hearts 3 on consoles would've been HUGE! Missed opportunities.
What exactly do you mean by waiting 5-10 years to make a profit? How much do you think it cost to make, $400 millions?

From Wada:

The answer to why Square made Dragon Quest X an MMO is simple. Final Fantasy XI, Square Enix’s last successful MMO, has earned the company nearly 40 billion yen ($484.7 million) in its ten years of operation. That’s about 4 billion yen ($48.4 million) in revenue per year from a single game.

The same, Wada added, will hold true for Dragon Quest X. The game’s initial development costs were recorded this year, so next year is when Square Enix expect to see a surge in revenue from Dragon Quest X subscriptions, as well as from Final Fantasy XIV: A Realm Reborn.

As previously reported, Dragon Quest X has over 400,000 paying subscribers as of October, a feat which it achieved in just two months. In comparison, it took Final Fantasy XI 18 months to reach 400,000 subscribers.
DQX has sold 633,827 copies as December 30, 2012, and although we haven't gotten any updated subscription numbers, there is no indication that the numbers have taken a dip since october.


FFXIV will take longer than DQX to recover costs, but if the game is good, the players will be there, there is still a market for paid MMOs, even against popular belief, and with the Beta starting sometime in the next 2 weeks, we will be able to see how it's shaping out.

All the people busy with 14 will finally go back to other projects and Versus, 15, 16 or whatever any possible titles being on hold, will continue their development and brighter days might be ahead for SE.

Also, the main platform SE should be pursuing (for non-scam games) is the 3DS, since it's a relatively low-cost and low-risk platform compared to the home consoles, but we might see more about this year, specially since DQ7 is releasing tomorrow.
 
I have no illusions that the company i used to love no longer exists.
As I've said earlier in another thread related to SE, I would split the FF contingent of NeoGAF into three categories.

  • Old-schoolers, those who stopped believing in the series after VI -- MagiusNecros, Dark-Schala (not so sure about her), etc.
  • Nomura-stans, those who believe Toryiama and Kitase are the culprits -- Kagari & co.
  • fanboys, those who believe the series has, is and will always do(ne/ing) fine -- Toth, LuuKyK, me, etc.
Would place you in the first category.
 
Oct 12, 2010
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As I've said earlier in another thread related to SE, I would split the FF contingent of NeoGAF into three categories.

  • Old-schoolers, those who stopped believing in the series after VI -- MagiusNecros, Dark-Schala (not so sure about her), etc.
  • Nomura-stans, those who believe Toryiama and Kitase are the culprits -- Kagari & co.
  • fanboys, those who believe the series has, is and will always do(ne/ing) fine -- Toth, LuuKyK, me, etc.

Would place you in the first category.
Hey, post-VI-pre-XIII was also Ito :p
 

Toth

Member
Jan 27, 2010
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As I've said earlier in another thread related to SE, I would split the FF contingent of NeoGAF into three categories.

  • Old-schoolers, those who stopped believing in the series after VI -- MagiusNecros, Dark-Schala (not so sure about her), etc.
  • Nomura-stans, those who believe Toryiama and Kitase are the culprits -- Kagari & co.
  • fanboys, those who believe the series has, is and will always do(ne/ing) fine -- Toth, LuuKyK, me, etc.
Would place you in the first category.
Fanboy status! Woot :D Personally, I just like each and every entry for different reasons. Some things work, some things don't. No game is absolutely perfect and I would gladly play any FF many times at any time. (I am about to start my 4th FF13 play through and just finished my fourth FF12 play through last year).
 
Aug 28, 2009
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As I've said earlier in another thread related to SE, I would split the FF contingent of NeoGAF into three categories.

  • Old-schoolers, those who stopped believing in the series after VI -- MagiusNecros, Dark-Schala (not so sure about her), etc.
  • Nomura-stans, those who believe Toryiama and Kitase are the culprits -- Kagari & co.
  • fanboys, those who believe the series has, is and will always do(ne/ing) fine -- Toth, LuuKyK, me, etc.
Would place you in the first category.
You would be wrong. :p

I have played all FF's and the ones after VI are my favourites,with the exception of VIII which i didn't liked and XI which i haven't played.But i also love III,IV and VI.

But i also belong in the second group as well.Just add Wada in the group of culprits and it will be perfect.

So i don't know,i think i'm somewhere between group 1 and group 2. :p
 
In all seriousness, it sucks a thread that aimed at discussing SE's state seriously, as in backed by numbers, had to drip into fan-boyish realms. Not going to deny my involvement into that shit either.

Damage-control aside, I'm not worried about SE's future as a whole so long they keep Eidos and their franchise under their sleeve.
 
Apr 26, 2012
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My only worry is that Square draws the wrong conclusions from results like these (giving up on Western market/console market, trying to Westernize their games, etc).

Otherwise I still think Square is well situated to make a comeback next gen. Many of their problems this generation stem from Crystal Tools and FFXIV.

In all seriousness, it sucks a thread that aimed at discussing SE's state seriously, as in backed by numbers, had to drip into fan-boyish realms. Not going to deny my involvement into that shit either.
This will happen with any SE/FF related thread these days, lol
 
Nov 3, 2007
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As I've said earlier in another thread related to SE, I would split the FF contingent of NeoGAF into three categories.

  • Old-schoolers, those who stopped believing in the series after VI -- MagiusNecros, Dark-Schala (not so sure about her), etc.
  • Nomura-stans, those who believe Toryiama and Kitase are the culprits -- Kagari & co.
  • fanboys, those who believe the series has, is and will always do(ne/ing) fine -- Toth, LuuKyK, me, etc.
Would place you in the first category.
What about me? I'm an old school fan that adores VI, but I also view VII as a great game. Certainly not the best, but I don't hate it or anything. VIII was terrible. IX was great in theory, but the battle system utterly ruins the game. X was saved by its music, XII I played for 20 minutes and got bored.

tldr; I like 75% of the numbered FF's.
 
Nov 27, 2007
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What about me? I'm an old school fan that adores VI, but I also view VII as a great game. Certainly not the best, but I don't hate it or anything. VIII was terrible. IX was great in theory, but the battle system utterly ruins the game. X was saved by its music, XII I played for 20 minutes and got bored.

tldr; I like 75% of the numbered FF's.
I'm in a similar boat.

Adore VI
VII is great
VIII is terrible
IX is sluggish and unplayable, despite seeming like a good game otherwise
X is saved by the post game content
XII has an awful story and pacing, though I enjoy the open world elements and battle system

edit: shit, this is list wars.
 

YAWN

Ask me which Shakespeare novel is best
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I'd probably be classed as an Ito Fanboy. Adore VI, IX, and XII. III, V, VII are decent. II, VIII, X, XIII can suck balls.
Clearly not all fans are as cut and dry as some think.
 
Nov 7, 2011
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While I found VIII's story and characters utterly horrid there was something intensely addictive about the battle system/Junctioning.

And while I do have a lot of love for IX, in retrospect, the game's battle system is way too bloody slow.

X isn't too bad either. Really liked the Conditional Based battle system and the story was interesting in places, but the game's pacing is a big problem.

There's a lot to admire about XII. But ultimately the game failed to emotionally engage me with the experience. Pacing is a problem here too.

Fuck XIII.
 

djtiesto

is beloved, despite what anyone might say
Jul 26, 2004
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And people said that the Eidos aquisition somehow made them good?
The very Eidos that was on the verge on closing to boot!


Having a stellar legacy will do that for you.
They're the people that made countless spinoff and can be successful selling remakes of their decade old games, aside from Nintendo they're the only one who could pull that off.
Yup, this is funny since I'm getting so sick and tired of hearing about how "Eidos saved SE". People seem to forget that they were on the verge of closing before SE picked them up. They've had a few successes under SE, yes.. but a bunch of failures as well. What will happen when the failures add up and weigh down SE further?
 
Oct 12, 2010
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Yup, this is funny since I'm getting so sick and tired of hearing about how "Eidos saved SE". People seem to forget that they were on the verge of closing before SE picked them up. They've had a few successes under SE, yes.. but a bunch of failures as well. What will happen when the failures add up and weigh down SE further?
They'll just sweep them under the rotting corpse that is FFXIV.
 
Aug 17, 2009
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As I've said earlier in another thread related to SE, I would split the FF contingent of NeoGAF into three categories.

  • Old-schoolers, those who stopped believing in the series after VI -- MagiusNecros, Dark-Schala (not so sure about her), etc.
  • Nomura-stans, those who believe Toryiama and Kitase are the culprits -- Kagari & co.
  • fanboys, those who believe the series has, is and will always do(ne/ing) fine -- Toth, LuuKyK, me, etc.
Would place you in the first category.
Where do I fall here? :p

I played all the games (FFI-FFXIII, FFX-2, FFXIII-2, FFIV:TAY, FFVII:CC) except XI and XIV and I've enjoyed all of them (well, except for II) but I know their faults.
 

Dark Schala

Eloquent Princess
Mar 2, 2010
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http://i.imgur.com/WK6jVCp.gif[IMG][/QUOTE]
I wonder if Selphie started composing her train song right then and there.

[quote="Narolf, post: 47376657"]As I've said earlier in another thread related to SE, I would split the FF contingent of NeoGAF into three categories.

[list][*]Old-schoolers, those who stopped believing in the series after VI -- MagiusNecros, Dark-Schala (not so sure about her), etc.
[*]Nomura-stans, those who believe Toryiama and Kitase are the culprits -- Kagari & co.
[*]fanboys, those who believe the series has, is and will always do(ne/ing) fine -- Toth, LuuKyK, me, etc.[/list]Would place you in the first category.[/QUOTE]
I should've checked into this thread earlier, haha.

Nah. I like a lot of the post-VI FFs. I actually hated FFVI when I was a kid, as I detailed somewhat [url=http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=46348437&postcount=3592]here in my FF6 playthrough[/url]. I didn't go back to it until I was in high school, so I don't have that much of an attachment to it like some do. And I haven't played it as many times as some others as a result of being late to the party with it. I feel like it's one of those games where I like it some days for its overall presentation and [I]some[/I] of its characterization, or it's one of those games where I would classify it as just a great game but nothing would stand out to me at that moment.

I like more of the skill-based FFs, or the ones that require a modicum of quick-thinking strategy/preliminary strategizing or customization prior to encountering battles. I'm not sure what I think of FF13's CSB yet even after experimenting with it a lot and getting animation timings recorded and making up spreadsheets and everything for it. I think it could be [I]better[/I], but it sort of works, just not to the extent I would like it to work (this goes into my desire for more micromanagement, but not everyone's into that sort of thing).

The thing about it is I used to play RPGs for the story a lot when I was a kid all the way up to before I graduated high school. I don't know whether or not it was a consequence of growing up, not having a proper mainline Suikoden game this generation (which is actually my favourite game series; I don't think that's a secret to a lot of people, really), or my tastes in games somewhat changing a bit, but I don't play RPGs for the story that much anymore. It's weird and I'm not sure how that happened. I go for the battle systems and ability customization systems now. So if a game does something interesting with its combat or its ability acquisition/customization systems, I'll probably end up liking it a lot. And difficulty options and balancing help out a lot in my enjoyment.

This, in turn, affected which FFs were overall my favourites or maybe the ones I liked the best. I don't have a favourite FF. If you put a gun to my head and made me choose, FF9 would probably be the closest game I'd call my favourite FF because it's my favourite interpretation of what the series is idealized to be, but other games closely follow it (like FF5 and FF10-2--which I'd love to see more and more of... and yes, I'm serious about FF10-2 because I genuinely love that game's systems a lot). I'm incredibly fond of FF10 for various reasons, but one of those reasons is surprisingly enjoying the worldbuilding in that game. I like how they took the time and effort to fashion that world a lot via NPC dialogue, exploration, art direction, continuing musical motifs, etc.

Each game has its own pluses, and each game has its own minuses. I can clearly see that. I guess I can sometimes seem tougher on post-FFVI and more recent games because I can be a little too blunt at times when discussing pros and cons of each thing. And also because I really don't like the cinematics too much (especially the voiced ones where I can't skip through dialogue). They look pretty, but in terms of game design and how people narrate their stories, it's not my preferred way of conveying a story at all (especially since I read faster than the voice actors narrate the dialogue). For the record, I would consider FF13 and FF13-2 as just average, with FF13 being a notch above FF13-2 because of its difficulty and the three postgame missions I enjoyed doing so much with different setups.

I'd say that I don't really fit into either category. I just want to have fun with the games in general and put up with less waffling while I do so (ie: cutscenes aren't really my thing; I respect games that respect players' time, etc.), and I want a modicum of difficulty/difficulty settings. With that said, it probably would seem like I lean closer to the older games because they presumably have less waffling around and battles can finish fast, though that may not necessarily be the case (ex: FF10-2).
 
As I've said earlier in another thread related to SE, I would split the FF contingent of NeoGAF into three categories.

  • Old-schoolers, those who stopped believing in the series after VI -- MagiusNecros, Dark-Schala (not so sure about her), etc.
  • Nomura-stans, those who believe Toryiama and Kitase are the culprits -- Kagari & co.
  • fanboys, those who believe the series has, is and will always do(ne/ing) fine -- Toth, LuuKyK, me, etc.
Would place you in the first category.
While this is grasping at some sort of vaguely-correct gist loosely, it also couldn't be more rubbish and hilariously stupid as a concept, really. People who do this are basically the cancer that has caused the Final Fantasy community to mostly eat its own head, though, and are as much to blame for that as the path the games have taken.
 
People who do this are basically the cancer that has caused the Final Fantasy community to mostly eat its own head, though, and are as much to blame for that as the path the games have taken.
Ah. You know, people have described me as a cancer for the Dissidia community more than once, but it's really the first time the allegation has been extended to the realms of the Final Fantasy community by and large. Likewise, may I ask your take on the contingent of the fan-base who condescendingly considers "peers" enjoying the development of the series as it is? Who like Lightning and the XIII trilogy?
 
Sep 11, 2007
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Is pretty sad since most of the games they released this year has been succesful to at least some degree and they are still having losses? I'm pretty sure is not the console enviroment rather than FF XIV cost and their mismanagement the main cause of it.

For example: They're late to HD releases, I mean we'll get KH1.5 HD basically at the end of the life of current gen consoles and no sight of FF X HD, which I strongly believe that it won't make it to the current gen...
 
Ah. You know, people have described me as a cancer for the Dissidia community more than once, but it's really the first time the allegation has been extended to the realms of the FF community by and large. Likewise, may I ask your take on the contingent of the fan-base who condescendingly consider "peers" who enjoy the development of the series? Who like Lightning & co.?
I just don't think it needs to be sliced and divided into sections. It causes this bullshit, ridiculous gang mentality that just damages the ability for the Final Fantasy community to be a strong thing. There's a lot of amazing people who love the series and could build one of the better gaming communities online, but they undermine themselves with this stuff.

The same is true of any gaming community - there's always going to be fights and battles, be it Wind Waker versus Twilight Princess, SF4 versus Third Strike or Sakaguchi era versus Modern era, but I feel the venom spat in the FF community is far worse, and over the last five years in particular it's become one of the most conflict-driven, uninviting gaming fanbases online. That's sad.

People are entitled to their opinions, even within that fan base, and the reason people get so upset, riled up and complain so much is because they care. FF is special to them. The complainers don't deserve to be sneered at for their opinions any more than those who love the newer games, and the respect the two groups should have for each other is a two way street. I see plenty of 'haters' at the throats of FF13 fans just because, utterly failing to actually make any points about why they feel how they do, but I see an equal number of people on the other side of the fence doing the Iraqi information minster act, writing off opinions of people who don't like it because they assume they're just another negative nancy out to dump on Lightning.

If you look at other similar fan communities - say Zelda or Sonic - they have the same differences of opinion floating throughout them, but without the venomous, poisonous snide that's in FF. It's true on GAF, or the fan sites. Kagari knows this theory of mine well, but I think of all game series' Final Fantasy is most similar to Sonic in its fans and their reaction to the path the series has taken (FF14 is our Sonic 06?) There is a split, absolutely (black eyes versus green eyes!) and the series has definitely gone in interesting places, sometimes good, sometimes bad, but that community has always kept their shit relatively together through all that, while the FF community both at GAF and at large just seems to keep splitting itself over and over into these ridiculous camps.

I don't know you, dude, and that comment wasn't intended as a direct comment on you (and was probably a bit poorly phrased), but I can't describe how much things like what you said, slicing the fan base up and essentially encouraging the groups to cannibalize each other and in-fight until people get so pissed off they leave irritates me. The labels basically end up promoting fighting over intelligent discussion, and they're also... well, they're labels. They're basic, restrictive, and don't allow for the nuance that being a real fan entails. For most of these people it isn't about hating all the games after or before a certain point, but far more than that, and just labelling them as 'Nomuraites' or 'Sakaguchi disciples' or whatever else doesn't cover it, and it just causes the two camps to butt heads harder than they otherwise might. It's one of the reasons I don't show up in the FF threads or communities too often these days - the constant stream of fighting over thoughtful discussion slays me.