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[Belfast]

Well if thats the case why start out his review with cosmetic stuff?

Well, he's clearly not a professional reviewer (though whose to say "professionals" are much better sometimes?). It's not the most organized set of impressions, but he talks plenty about gameplay. Which, I'd agree from my own experience, ranges from sometimes bad to mostly mediocre.

 

[Belfast]

That betacake reviewer is approaching SWTOR from the perspective of KOTOR 3. He's finding that it doesn't make a very good KOTOR 3 for him.

And that's an interesting bit of information. The people telling him "well, it's an MMO" (that's why there's lots of dumb filler quests, that's why you can't use certain weapons, that's why dialogue is reused, etc.) are actually correct. The game was hyped the best of KOTOR 3 mixed with the best of MMOs. And it turns out the one might detract from the other.

Pretty much. It's an okay to passable MMO and a terrible KOTOR game. This was not a marriage of concepts meant to be, but turning a franchise into an MMO these days is a good way to make cash, and I'd bargain that was the primary impetus for EA/Bioware doing so.

 

[krameriffic]

I just love judging early beta builds. Man this thread has been ugly the last few days.

I like when people use the "it's a beta!" defense. How many games have you seen that really, truly evolved significantly from their beta incarnations to their initial releases?

 

[cmoyano]

I like when people use the "it's a beta!" defense. How many games have you seen that really, truly evolved significantly from their beta incarnations to their initial releases?

thank you!! this man right here, promote him! finally...yes, games dont change that much at all, not even form alpha. Beta is pretty much 90 percent of the gam established and what we are going to see....i judged swtor so hard on beta, did not enojy the game at all.

 

[Moaradin]

I like when people use the "it's a beta!" defense. How many games have you seen that really, truly evolved significantly from their beta incarnations to their initial releases?

 

[Chiave]

I just want to see beta impressions without a bitchy/whiny tone imprinted into the write up. God that get old. Just give me the "facts." Please.

 

[Sykane]

Lol at the WoW screenshot...tho to be fair, the photo gallery does say ALPHA, not beta like he was talking about...

 

[BattleMonkey]

I like when people use the "it's a beta!" defense. How many games have you seen that really, truly evolved significantly from their beta incarnations to their initial releases?

Many gave have improved since beta, the problem is so many games nowadays toss beta around on glorified demos right before release. Open betas are a very different story. We don't even have a release date for TOR and it might even slip into next year they have said. For what we know, yes alot will still change. Right now theres alot of unknowns and still unanswered questions about what is supposed to even be in the game at launch and what is coming after.

The core game is in the beta no doubt, but there is lots of things that to tend to get ironed out and polished. It greatly depends on what bothers you about a game. If the core mechanics and such of the game you hate in beta, then yea well your not going to like the final product. Graphic issues, bugs, balance, blah blah blah, yea those are what usually are getting tweaked the most.

Biggest issue they got right now I think to address is lack of content and what is going to make launch.

 

[Desaan]

BioWare are victims are their own PR hype train. They announced SWTOR waaaaaay too early and thus people already know an incredible amount about the game before it's even been released, due in no small part to the train-wreck of a beta and massive amounts of leaks due to said ongoing beta. The convention hype from E3/Pax was unreal and I think a lot of us expected to be playing by the end of November, don't count on it.

By all accounts they should of taken a leaf from Mythic's book with Warhammer, declared this game not ready (even for beta), closed shop and come back in a few months because the only hype they are generating lately is negative. All PR is not good PR when the general consensus seems to be "You can polish a turd but it's still a turd". Then again opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one and some of them stink of shit.

The waiting is the biggest torture but thank god for the Q4 lineup because after I get my hands on Dark Souls, Skryrim, BF3, Arkham City et al - I probably wont visit the thread again this year or even look at the official site.


Edit: You could always try this.

 

[Manos: The Hans of Fate]

By all accounts they should of taken a leaf from Mythic's book with Warhammer, declared this game not ready (even for beta), closed shop and come back in a few months because the only hype they are generating lately is negative. All PR is not good PR when the general consensus seems to be "You can polish a turd but it's still a turd". Then again opinions are like assholes, everyone's got one and some of them stink of shit.

Is Mythic and Warhammer a really good model to suggest emulating though?

 

[Morn]

That's not even Alpha. That's a pre-alpha proof of concept build from about 2002 or so.

 

[Morn]

Many gave have improved since beta, the problem is so many games nowadays toss beta around on glorified demos right before release. Open betas are a very different story. We don't even have a release date for TOR and it might even slip into next year they have said. For what we know, yes alot will still change. Right now theres alot of unknowns and still unanswered questions about what is supposed to even be in the game at launch and what is coming after.

The core game is in the beta no doubt, but there is lots of things that to tend to get ironed out and polished. It greatly depends on what bothers you about a game. If the core mechanics and such of the game you hate in beta, then yea well your not going to like the final product. Graphic issues, bugs, balance, blah blah blah, yea those are what usually are getting tweaked the most.

Biggest issue they got right now I think to address is lack of content and what is going to make launch.

The game is shipping this year. EA does not ship POS materials to Gamestop for games that are more than six months away. Usually its within sixty days of release when they send those to stores.

 

[sykoex]

That's not even Alpha. That's a pre-alpha proof of concept build from about 2002 or so.

I thought it was a zoomed in Warcraft III screenshot.

 

[Morn]

I thought it was a zoomed in Warcraft III screenshot.

Technically, at that point, it was.

 

[Desaan]

Is Mythic and Warhammer a really good model to suggest emulating though?

Maybe not, but Warhammer was a pretty solid game it was just such a shame the devs wouldn't listen to the community about the RvR and balance issues till the servers where all ghost towns. Even when it was released it had some pretty basic failings so I can only imagine the state of the game 6 months prior.

 

[Tik-Tok]

I played the Warhammer Beta. It was a broken, buggy, unplayable piece of shit.
I played the SWTOR Beta. It's none of those things.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Maybe not, but Warhammer was a pretty solid game it was just such a shame the devs wouldn't listen to the community about the RvR and balance issues till the servers where all ghost towns. Even when it was released it had some pretty basic failings so I can only imagine the state of the game 6 months prior.

Warhammer was not ready for release either, EA forced it out sooner than it was ready which likely will happen with TOR as well. Lot of stuff had to get cut from WAR to get it out the door.

 

[Morn]

I played the Warhammer Beta. It was a broken, buggy, unplayable piece of shit.
I played the SWTOR Beta. It's none of those things.

Play past level 15.

 

[Moaradin]

I played the Warhammer Beta. It was a broken, buggy, unplayable piece of shit.
I played the SWTOR Beta. It's none of those things.

It's the second most polished beta I played. RIFT was the only one I would say was more polished, but it was also further in development at that point. Also was boring as hell, which SWTOR wasn't for me.

 

[LowParry]

I played the Warhammer Beta. It was a broken, buggy, unplayable piece of shit.
I played the SWTOR Beta. It's none of those things.

Ya know the funny thing about War Beta was that it was more fun to play than actual retail.

 

[Last Hearth]

Play past level 15.

I got to level 23 and it was a blast.

 

[Tik-Tok]

Play past level 15.

Fair enough.
However, one made me decide to NOT purchase something I was contemplating purchasing, the other re-affirmed my decision to purchase something I had begin to waffle on.

I really feel like some of this SWTOR bad press may be a direct result of corporate shills.


Going on record now saying I am NOT a corporate shill

 

[Moaradin]

I got to level 23 and it was a blast.

Had 2 level 30s. Loved my Operative to death.

 

[Jarmel]

Play past level 15.

Come on that's some pretty serious hyperbole.

 

[FieryBalrog]

That's not WoW beta; and it's not even close to a couple of months from release (as evidence builds for a late 2011 launch for TOR).

I don't know why you are trying to pass that off as a beta screenshot.

 

[Won]

He makes a few bad points (i.e. some of the stuff about unfinished NPCs and whatnot are typical beta fare), but he makes a lot of good ones, too. As Morn said, he understands what he is playing better than most. The game is an inefficient, archaic mess that is going to bank more on its Star Wars/KOTOR name than the fact that it is anywhere near well-made.

I'm not saying he is wrong or that I don't believe him, just that some of his conclusions seem to ignore that he is playing a beta of an MMO. (No you are not getting everything you want at level 1!)
Just saying.

Also lol @ the alpha WoW shot. Worst argument on the internet.

 

[Sigfodr]

I haven't seen this particular ad yet, but I dig the Shae love:

 

[Moaradin]

I'm not saying he is wrong or that I don't believe him, just that some of his conclusions seem to ignore that he is playing a beta of an MMO. (No you are not getting everything you want at level 1!)
Just saying.

Also lol @ the alpha WoW shot. Worst argument on the internet.

The argument was the games don't change much at all from beta to release, which is definitely wrong, especially for MMOs. Hell, TOR JUST implemented a new UI only last build. These builds aren't just small patches, they are pretty significant updates.

 

[FieryBalrog]

Some things can change; some things pretty much never change. That's why the concept of the miracle patch has become (rightfully) so discredited. Even the things which can change often simply don't.

For example, at this point they are not going to do any major overhauls of the questing content, or of the core design where a player has to do almost all of his faction's quest content to hit max level. There are other things which are unlikely to change much, like the story arcs, the overall difficulty level, the design of the companions, and so on.

The things that can change between now and release (but many of which won't) are things like UI, customization, animations, bugs, placeholder stuff, and whatever additional content they have been holding back, which is rarely much.

 

[Dresden]

The argument was the games don't change much at all from beta to release, which is definitely wrong, especially for MMOs. Hell, TOR JUST implemented a new UI only last build. These builds aren't just small patches, they are pretty significant updates.

TOR might get some cosmetic changes but the general structure of the game isn't going to be altered so close to release. What the beta players are seeing right now in terms of content (ruling out bugs) is close to what people are going to get on release, outside of level adjustments or UI fixes.

That picture of the proto-alpha build of WoW doesn't fit because that was years before release, not weeks.

 

[Kintaro]

<peeks in>

<reads page>

<ducks out>

=/

 

[HarryDemeanor]

<peeks in>

<reads page>

<ducks out>

=/

Explosions!

 

[Trouble]

Some things can change; some things pretty much never change. That's why the concept of the miracle patch has become (rightfully) so discredited. Even the things which can change often simply don't.

For example, at this point they are not going to do any major overhauls of the questing content, or of the core design where a player has to do almost all of his faction's quest content to hit max level. There are other things which are unlikely to change much, like the story arcs, the overall difficulty level, the design of the companions, and so on.

The things that can change between now and release (but many of which won't) are things like UI, customization, animations, bugs, placeholder stuff, and whatever additional content they have been holding back, which is rarely much.

Not sure I see the problem there. I think it's admirable that you can quest to max level at launch, you certainly couldn't in vanilla WoW.

 

[Belfast]

I'm not saying he is wrong or that I don't believe him, just that some of his conclusions seem to ignore that he is playing a beta of an MMO. (No you are not getting everything you want at level 1!)
Just saying.

Also lol @ the alpha WoW shot. Worst argument on the internet.

Mmmm. Well, I guess I just think that Bioware should have made more strides to push the genre forward than they have. In fact, a few design decisions feel like honest regressions. After playing years of WoW and everything else, it's just an extremely disappointing product. Plus, I don't have the hard-on for Star Wars that a lot of people seem to. I like it, but I don't love it.

Why shouldn't we expect more? Why are we content to be "well, it's just an MMO, whaddaya want?" And there are clearly some people in this thread who are pinning so much of their hopes on this game that they're willing to stick their head in the sand and ignore that it has some serious problems.

 

[eastmen]

Bioware has already said that a dx 10/11 run time will come after the release of the game.

So at some point in 2012 i would assume we will see enhancments of the graphics. Most likely timed with the first expansion.

I also don't care for the character models and have been very vocal about it on many forums

 

[Blackface]

Belfast honestly seems like someone who doesn't enjoy then game, then searches the internet for any negative comments about it, then masturbates to them before posting on Neogaf.

Please attempt to justify your stance on the game instead of quoting others. You either write terribly, can't express your actual opinion properly or are new to MMO's.

That being said. There are a number of MMO's on the market right now that push the genre forward, and break the traditional mold. You, and everyone else crying in this thread are not playing them. You probably don't know about them, or follow any of their progress. Then you cry when a game publisher doesn't want to dump hundreds of millions of dollars into a "new formula", and sticks with the traditional MMO setup. Do you know how hypocritical and embarrassing your arguments are?

 

[FieryBalrog]

Not sure I see the problem there.

Content for re-rolling, which Bioware themselves tout as a major feature.

I think it's admirable that you can quest to max level at launch, you certainly couldn't in vanilla WoW.

Yeah, that was in 2004 (and even what they had was a huge new step at the time). Things have changed.

Belfast honestly seems like someone who doesn't enjoy then game, then searches the internet for any negative comments about it, then masturbates to them before posting on Neogaf.

Color me unsurprised. On pretty much any gaming forum I read, when a beta poster reports a negative impression (in many games, but TOR particularly), there are half a dozen or more people who don't play the game ready to spew vitriol.

 

[Cystm]

Every time I check this thread, it's either people going to ridiculous lengths as to why the game is disappointing or the opposite. What is anyone really getting out of this thread anymore? Defending the state of the game is an odd position even if you are a huge fan of bioware/kotor, but conversely it is also odd to go out of your way to attempt to sway those same people just to prove your point (which really just a matter of opinion) that the game is flawed and isn't what WoW is/was blah blah blah or some other MMO with which you can generalize about.

The fact that there is little to no interesting news is not helping to be sure. Darth hater has a post about TOR having dressing rooms... Made me lol. The information lull is killing the hypetrain and for now at least maybe it's for the best.

 

[HarryDemeanor]

Every time I check this thread, it's either people going to ridiculous lengths as to why the game is disappointing or the opposite. What is anyone really getting out of this thread anymore? Defending the state of the game is an odd position even if you are a huge fan of bioware/kotor, but conversely it is also odd to go out of your way to attempt to sway those same people just to prove your point (which really just a matter of opinion) that the game is flawed and isn't what WoW is/was blah blah blah or some other MMO with which you can generalize about.

The fact that there is little to no interesting news is not helping to be sure. Darth hater has a post about TOR having dressing rooms... Made me lol. The information lull is killing the hypetrain and for now at least maybe it's for the best.

Tell me about it. It sure has taken a nosedive.

 

[Mr. Luchador]

Morn was so much more likeable when the camera used to cut away before he said anything. Quark was right, he just moans and moans

 

[Blackface]

Content for re-rolling, which Bioware themselves tout as a major feature.


Yeah, that was in 2004 (and even what they had was a huge new step at the time). Things have changed.

Color me unsurprised. On pretty much any gaming forum I read, when a beta poster reports a negative impression (in many games, but TOR particularly), there are half a dozen or more people who don't play the game ready to spew vitriol.

I was one of the first people in this thread to play the beta. I have done and seen most of what SWTOR has to offer so far. I posted my impressions both good and bad a while ago.

SWTOR does lots of good things, and it does some bad things. Complaining about SWTOR being a traditional MMO, after we have known it's going to be a traditional MMO for almost a year, is stupid. Would I have liked it to be significantly different then the normal MMO out there. Yes. EVE, Meets Darkfall, meets SWG would have been perfect. Unfortunately, games like that don't sell. When you are going to dump hundreds of millions into a new MMo, you have to know that the formula works.

That being said. It's not a direct copy of any one MMO. But it does follow the EQ, WoW formula. The upside is almost everything WoW does, SWTOR does better. Not even a contest really. The leveling, story progression, instances and narrative of SWTOR makes WoW seem like an Atari game.

What SWTOR needs to get right, is the end-game. From a PVP , PVE and social standpoint. Otherwise, it won't keep subscribers. We are YET to see if they can accomplish this.

I am just tired of people who are new to mmo's, don't understand mmo's, played mmo's casually, or played SWTOR for....A WEEKEND. Coming in and trashing the basis of the game. It's like going to an art gallary full of cubism painting, then complaining afterwards that you hated all the art because it was done in a cubism style.

Just because something is a traditional MMO doesn't mean it's bad. SWTOR is shaping up to be a FANTASTIC traditional MMO. If you do not want a traditional MMO, there tons of other, genre progressing (although SWTOR does progress the genre, but whatever) MMO's out there. Go play one, some are great.

If you don't like steak don't go into the steak thread talking about the $100 steak you just bought tasting like shit. If you don't like traditional MMO's, don't come into a traditional MMO thread and talk about the game sucking because it's a traditional MMO.

Want to make an intelligent post criticizing parts of the game? Go for it. I have. But don't post shit like this

The game is an inefficient, archaic mess that is going to bank more on its Star Wars/KOTOR name than the fact that it is anywhere near well-made.

As it makes no sense, and isn't even a proper argument. It's a statement of ignorance.

 

[maabus1999]

I was one of the first people in this thread to play the beta. I have done and seen most of what SWTOR has to offer so far. I posted my impressions both good and bad a while ago.

SWTOR does lots of good things, and it does some bad things. Complaining about SWTOR being a traditional MMO, after we have known it's going to be a traditional MMO for almost a year, is stupid. Would I have liked it to be significantly different then the normal MMO out there. Yes. EVE, Meets Darkfall, meets SWG would have been perfect. Unfortunately, games like that don't sell. When you are going to dump hundreds of millions into a new MMo, you have to know that the formula works.

That being said. It's not a direct copy of any one MMO. But it does follow the EQ, WoW formula. The upside is almost everything WoW does, SWTOR does better. Not even a contest really. The leveling, story progression, instances and narrative of SWTOR makes WoW seem like an Atari game.

What SWTOR needs to get right, is the end-game. From a PVP , PVE and social standpoint. Otherwise, it won't keep subscribers. We are YET to see if they can accomplish this.

I am just tired of people who are new to mmo's, don't understand mmo's, played mmo's casually, or played SWTOR for....A WEEKEND. Coming in and trashing the basis of the game. It's like going to an art gallary full of cubism painting, then complaining afterwards that you hated all the art because it was done in a cubism style.

Just because something is a traditional MMO doesn't mean it's bad. SWTOR is shaping up to be a FANTASTIC traditional MMO. If you do not want a traditional MMO, there tons of other, genre progressing (although SWTOR does progress the genre, but whatever) MMO's out there. Go play one, some are great.

If you don't like steak don't go into the steak thread talking about the $100 steak you just bought tasting like shit. If you don't like traditional MMO's, don't come into a traditional MMO thread and talk about the game sucking because it's a traditional MMO.

Want to make an intelligent post criticizing parts of the game? Go for it. I have. But don't post shit like this



As it makes no sense, and isn't even a proper argument. It's a statement of ignorance.

If I could rep you on this forum, I would. +1.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

After my first beta period ended about a week ago I've seriously considered if I should cancel my pre order. I think the game is decent and occasionally fun but I was at lvl 36 BH and I could already see that this game does nothing new or interesting and the voice over for the side missions always boils down to "go here. kill this. click that. come back. get shiny" I get tired of it and even started clicking through the voice overs because they are boring and the facial animations are terrible. The planets are a mixed bag. There's some cool content on Hoth, Nar Shadda and others but they all have the same structure and after the first or so planets I'd just be "going through the motions" for new planets of exploring all the speeder routes and collecting all the boring missions. At the end I was doing only red missions and canceling everything else, getting mates to help with red heroics then move to the next planet. My problems with the game are not because of bugs which exist but seem to get fixed pretty quick but rather the structure of the game is just a tried and tired MMO forumula with some mostly boring voice overed wow quests. I think I'm going to skip it.

The main class quests are great stuff it just doesn't feel like any of that NEEDED to be in an MMO and indeed seems hindered because of the lowest common denominator graphics and "everyone has Mako clones" making the quests Impersonal

 

[Gvaz]

There are mmos that break the mold?

 

[BattleMonkey]

There are mmos that break the mold?

Been many, but no one cares about them apparently

 

[Gvaz]

Examples would be...?

 

[Emitan]

Examples would be...?

EVE, Guild Wars 2, Realm of the Mad God, World of Darkness.

 

[ElectricBlue187]

Also I should say that the flashpoints are really quality stuff there should be a better flashpoint to 'kill some wildlife' quest ratio.

 

[BattleMonkey]

Examples would be...?

Well what exactly do you consider the mold that needs to be broken? Most of similar elements but many have tried to do different things. Ironically most of the creativity went out the window after WoW came out.

Games like UO, SWG, EVE, and others all went with a vastly different approach with many unique elements. Warhammer while having many similarities to other MMOs, really attempted to completely change things around with it's focus on large scale pvp (it didn't work out initially).

But it really depends on what you consider breaking the mold, many games have tried lot of unique aspects, gameplay variants, and other things that I wouldn't call them "cookie cutter". Even a game like Star Trek Online tried lot of different things and is fairly unique

Also I should say that the flashpoints are really quality stuff there should be a better flashpoint to 'kill some wildlife' quest ratio.

Yea common complaint. The Flashpoints are supposed to be great but not enough of them, though they have said that there is many more, but we have no idea if they are going to be implemented in game at launch or not.

 

[Blackface]

EVE, Guild Wars 2, Realm of the Mad God, World of Darkness.

Darkfall, Perpetum, Black Prophecy, Fallen Earth, I could go on for about 30 more.