AdventureRacing
Member
Obviously they shouldn't bring back stuff like the terrible dragoon pathing. Has nothing to do with what i posted though.
Yeah cause that's what everyone is asking for.
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//: StarCraft II: Heart of the Swarm |OT| Like Riding a Bike
- Thread starter Corran Horn
- Start date
Obviously they shouldn't bring back stuff like the terrible dragoon pathing. Has nothing to do with what i posted though.
Yeah cause that's what everyone is asking for.
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Hahaha so sorry V.
Then what exactly is the problem with what Yoshi posted?
The fact that a Terran player lost his force (T1, T1.5 units!) when he walked into a trap and got into a situation where a T3 caster squad was able to use multiple spells on them?
What exactly is problematic about this? I do not see the same terran players crying out for help when Widow mines decimate 100+ supply in banelings and zerglings and mutas once a Zerg makes a mistake. If one is free game, the other is as well.
If anything, HOTS can be micro intensive like that. BW was micro intensive as well, sometimes much more so. I would agree that units like Colossus should entirely be removed, but the posted video has nothing to do with Colossi, it was simply a marine/mara force walking into psi storms. That shit will happen in BW as well. Psi Storms can ravage 15-20 supply's worth of workers in a matter of seconds, even back then.
No worries. I am so salty when Nostalgia googles get on people. Need to work on this
I still think that Tiers are one of the worst things adopted into balance discussions.
the only race that should have tiers is terran and it means nothing about the relative strength of its units.
a fully upgraded marine/marauder/medivac force is not a 'tier 1' army in the same sense as fully upgraded zealot/stalker or ling/roach is. likewise templar/collossi and brood/viper/ultra are infinitely more accessible than battlecruiser/thor.
That said, Ghosts are fairly accessible, if you dont want to play with them you dont get to complain when you walk a clump of bio into some templar. if you don't want the expense of ghosts you have to be paying attention, all the time.
the only race that should have tiers is terran and it means nothing about the relative strength of its units.
a fully upgraded marine/marauder/medivac force is not a 'tier 1' army in the same sense as fully upgraded zealot/stalker or ling/roach is. likewise templar/collossi and brood/viper/ultra are infinitely more accessible than battlecruiser/thor.
That said, Ghosts are fairly accessible, if you dont want to play with them you dont get to complain when you walk a clump of bio into some templar. if you don't want the expense of ghosts you have to be paying attention, all the time.
AdventureRacing
Member
I don't understand the question, i thought i was basically agreeing with him?
As said above it's disingenuous to describe units like that as T1 especially when terran have no choice but to use them late game.
This isn't about balance so stop trying to turn into yet another discussion about balance whine. The problem is with matchups where one single massive engagement simply decides the whole battle, this has been SC2's biggest problem since release. In TvZ right now you see shitloads of small engagements that all add up to eventually decide a winner in a matchup. Sure widow mines can kill a scary amount of units but so can banelings and in the end we are getting plenty of back and forth.
Having said that i don't actually mind PvT right now. I do wish they would make mech viable to add a little variety to both PvT and ZvT so each game wasn't so similar.
I already said this in my above post. If anything there were even stronger units in BW, some of them were so powerful it makes you amazed they weren't OP. Point is though that BW still didn't see armies dying nearly as fast and there were far more small engagements and back and forth play during a match.
No worries. I am so salty when Nostalgia googles get on people. Need to work on this
This coming from the guy who blindly defends anything blizzard touches. Nostalgia isn't an argument, if you disagree with something you can explain why just saying 'nostalgia goggles' means nothing.
I don't think blizzard should just revert the game back to BW (even though it is far superior). I do think they should learn more from what made the game so great in the first place and stop making the same mistakes with balance design over and over.
The latest Episode of Meta is basically in its entirety a fantastic discussion on how problematic Protoss is as a race, both n facing them and playing as them. Shame they'll likely never be fixed but the Episode is worth a listen. The game as a whole would be substantially better if Protoss was substantially different. They are an unbalanced race through and through, not making it deep in tournaments doesn't mean shit for how powerful their 2 base timings and best of 1 results can be.
http://youtu.be/lWz-U1YSIW0
http://youtu.be/lWz-U1YSIW0
AdventureRacing
Member
It was my first Meta, but I enjoyed it a lot. Their discussion on Protoss players, and how Rain probably would dominate even more if he played a race which doesn't rely so much on timings, was cool.
I'd love to see some more experimental stuff from Blizzard on this. They're understandably afraid to break the balance of a live game, but if they'd have a small team focused on not just balancing but properly reshape the match up's release maps every now and then that'd be very cool. Have a carte blanche to do crazy shit, get feedback on different game mechanics and then if things work out in a fun to play and watch manner, try to work it into the game proper.
So basically like the expansion betas seem to be, but more regular than every two years. The HOTS beta was exciting to follow without a pro scene; an Overseer speed buff not so much (although I think these latest big events have been great).
AdventureRacing
Member
Agree with this so much. Hell with maps blizzard don't even need people to do it, there are plenty of people in the community who would love to develop maps for the game. In terms of balancing they should just try out some big changes on some test maps, i have no doubt plenty of people would love to test it for them (myself included).
Alriiight!
Here is the patch note I would want to see:
*Corruptor has been removed*
Jokes aside...what about making them debuff a unit that starts losing health for a set amount of time and gets damaged even if Corruptor goes out of range?
Or is that too passive? They should cost more money, less gas, that is for starters
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
I just want units that deal less damageAlriiight!
Here is the patch note I would want to see:
*Corruptor has been removed*
Jokes aside...what about making them debuff a unit that starts losing health for a set amount of time and gets damaged even if Corruptor goes out of range?
Or is that too passive? They should cost more money, less gas, that is for starters
Damn iiiiiit.I just want units that deal less damage
You want bunch more marines and zerglings basically?
Marines deal insane amounts of dps. He wants more Zerglings and Queens.
and applies plague
unknownstranger
Member
Merge them with Vipers and give us something that doesn't suck against air.
plague can be on a new unit. zerg doesnt have any offesnive ground based casters, so we'll introduce one. called the defiler.
but seriously, fuck browder for saying devourer's are not fun when the corruptor exists as a fun-vacuum.
Corran Horn
May the Schwartz be with you
Zerg and Terran so good
Zerg and Terran so good
beautiful
unknownstranger
Member
Zerg and Terran so good
And people say mines require skill...
Overall design goals for Corruptors
Make unit more important, dynamic, and skill based for player and opponent
General changes
Viper now unlocked via Corruptor evolution same as Broodlord.
Added Abilities
- Switch between air and ground unit.
Corruptors have cool tentacles coming out of their rears, so let's give them the ability to walk with them on the ground.
Version A
When on the ground Corruptors have the same stats maybe less armor value
Version B
Corruptor has Swarm Host speed, retains air attack damage, range, can attack and move at same time
Version C
Same as version A but unit can move and attack at the same time
I really like the idea of corruptors flying in landing and suddenly being these terrifying acid spitting tentacle walking murder machines that attack while they move. They're overall damage would be low because their rate of fire is so poor and they could be targeted and killed fairly easily, but I like the visual, it would also compel T and P to spend a bit more time making sure they had stuff to defend such tactics against a mineral lines and places that ling runby's wouldn't otherwise be likely.
Idea: Some sort of passive goo that they leave in their wake while on the ground either corrupting units or creating a speed debuff.
While on ground
Standard attack only hits ground (actually think hitting air or ground might be cool)
- Corruptor shoots acid balls at a range of 10-12 strong against biological units and structures, splash damage from shots
- Auto Cast (Passive energy drain while in seige mode?)
- Once launched attack takes 4 seconds to land in a radius of area designated
- Zerg player does not gain vision of area being shot at.
- Landing locations show up on in game to give opponent time to react, forcing micro. Damage is more AOE Splash than single target, maybe bonus to massive however.
Explanation: Softening enemy positions opening up safer avenues for potential for harass or backstab attacks later on. Tradeoffs are Corruptors vulnerable and immobile. Seige can help deter a game ending death ball push ZvP after failed engagement in center, while lessening Zerg defenders disadvantage when bases get cut off. Allows opponent to micro against, forces multitasking. Makes Zerg make cost benefit analysis versus direct AA versus area control also risk of corruptors getting 'caught' in between transitions.
Needs some sort of limit for duration and I don't want corruptors to have an excuse to burn mana so they can't take dmg from feedbacks.
Air or Ground
Armor to 0 for duration of latch
can use latch while burrowed - visual of corruptors shooting out of ground and entangling air unit too good
Target: Air and Ground
Latch (Unit): Corruptor gains Mutalist Heath Regen while latched (variation on Roach burrow heal) Drains enemy energy and health over time (to minimum of 1 HP a la plague). Must manually target to kill. When latched Corruptor can still attack nearby ground and air units but not target that is latched.
Not sure: Disables attack? Disables spellcasting? Maybe slows attack instead of disables? Speed debuff?
Latch (structure): Corruptor gains Mutalist Heath Regen while latched. Corruptor latches onto structure, passive damage to structure and energy drain, build time reduced by 25% (50%?). Corruptor can attack nearby ground and air units.
Not sure: Slows research? Disables building abilities?
Tactics
Corruptors are still relatively expensive and inefficient so I'm not too worried about these abilities being abused with dozens of them at a time
This is completely a first draft. it's late and I feel like I should spend more than 10 minutes on this before posting it, but this is my idea. It's kind of a mess right now but I feel some kind of variation on these ideas is the way to go.
I like the concept of corruptors being able to harass, 'catch' drops as they are moving on the map, provide some light space control and to help with the defenders disadvantage that Zerg can have ZvP when you factor in Protoss rolling warp ins after the Zerg losses a big engagement. Something that just wouldn't give a shit about stalker zealot sentry mass force fields creating a game ending push late game that could also then help soften the Protoss ball if they get packed too tightly due to mass FF protecting them from melee et all.
I just focused on the Protoss stuff so much to annoy EJ and get people to click (even I'll admit the line attributing all of SCII problems to Protoss was slight hyperbole).
Everyone should check out Meta, I don't even bother with the other shows to be honest.
Make unit more important, dynamic, and skill based for player and opponent
General changes
Viper now unlocked via Corruptor evolution same as Broodlord.
Added Abilities
Transform
- Switch between air and ground unit.
Corruptors have cool tentacles coming out of their rears, so let's give them the ability to walk with them on the ground.
Version A
When on the ground Corruptors have the same stats maybe less armor value
Version B
Corruptor has Swarm Host speed, retains air attack damage, range, can attack and move at same time
Version C
Same as version A but unit can move and attack at the same time
I really like the idea of corruptors flying in landing and suddenly being these terrifying acid spitting tentacle walking murder machines that attack while they move. They're overall damage would be low because their rate of fire is so poor and they could be targeted and killed fairly easily, but I like the visual, it would also compel T and P to spend a bit more time making sure they had stuff to defend such tactics against a mineral lines and places that ling runby's wouldn't otherwise be likely.
Idea: Some sort of passive goo that they leave in their wake while on the ground either corrupting units or creating a speed debuff.
While on ground
Standard attack only hits ground (actually think hitting air or ground might be cool)
Ability: Burrow
Ability: Seige
Target: Air and Ground (remember those bugs from Starship troopers?)- Corruptor shoots acid balls at a range of 10-12 strong against biological units and structures, splash damage from shots
- Auto Cast (Passive energy drain while in seige mode?)
- Once launched attack takes 4 seconds to land in a radius of area designated
- Zerg player does not gain vision of area being shot at.
- Landing locations show up on in game to give opponent time to react, forcing micro. Damage is more AOE Splash than single target, maybe bonus to massive however.
Explanation: Softening enemy positions opening up safer avenues for potential for harass or backstab attacks later on. Tradeoffs are Corruptors vulnerable and immobile. Seige can help deter a game ending death ball push ZvP after failed engagement in center, while lessening Zerg defenders disadvantage when bases get cut off. Allows opponent to micro against, forces multitasking. Makes Zerg make cost benefit analysis versus direct AA versus area control also risk of corruptors getting 'caught' in between transitions.
Needs some sort of limit for duration and I don't want corruptors to have an excuse to burn mana so they can't take dmg from feedbacks.
Air or Ground
Spell: Latch
Corruptor attaches itself to enemy.Armor to 0 for duration of latch
can use latch while burrowed - visual of corruptors shooting out of ground and entangling air unit too good
Target: Air and Ground
Latch (Unit): Corruptor gains Mutalist Heath Regen while latched (variation on Roach burrow heal) Drains enemy energy and health over time (to minimum of 1 HP a la plague). Must manually target to kill. When latched Corruptor can still attack nearby ground and air units but not target that is latched.
Not sure: Disables attack? Disables spellcasting? Maybe slows attack instead of disables? Speed debuff?
Latch (structure): Corruptor gains Mutalist Heath Regen while latched. Corruptor latches onto structure, passive damage to structure and energy drain, build time reduced by 25% (50%?). Corruptor can attack nearby ground and air units.
Not sure: Slows research? Disables building abilities?
Tactics
Corruptors are still relatively expensive and inefficient so I'm not too worried about these abilities being abused with dozens of them at a time
This is completely a first draft. it's late and I feel like I should spend more than 10 minutes on this before posting it, but this is my idea. It's kind of a mess right now but I feel some kind of variation on these ideas is the way to go.
I like the concept of corruptors being able to harass, 'catch' drops as they are moving on the map, provide some light space control and to help with the defenders disadvantage that Zerg can have ZvP when you factor in Protoss rolling warp ins after the Zerg losses a big engagement. Something that just wouldn't give a shit about stalker zealot sentry mass force fields creating a game ending push late game that could also then help soften the Protoss ball if they get packed too tightly due to mass FF protecting them from melee et all.
I just focused on the Protoss stuff so much to annoy EJ and get people to click (even I'll admit the line attributing all of SCII problems to Protoss was slight hyperbole
).Everyone should check out Meta, I don't even bother with the other shows to be honest.
unknownstranger
Member
We're mostly fine against bio and ground protoss except having nothing to deal with High Templars and to a less extent ghosts. Having something that can kill Planetaries without getting hit besides Brood Lords (assuming there's missles turrets like always) and Swarm Hosts (which you're probably already dead if you built many of them). Impalers would fix this for us.
Infestors should get an ability that throws a leech on a target that sucks the energy out of a target over time and does damage similar to the energy sucked.
If we go against Skyterran or Skytoss and we can't kill them before we do, we're almost always fucked. Corrupters are suppose to be our counter, but they do shit damage unless in massive numbers (and even then it's almost hopeless against skyterran with a decent amount of point-defense drones). The easiest solution is to change their bonus damage from massive to armored, but they're still boring that way. My idea would be to give them neural parasite (must be researched at Spire) instead.
Just the thoughts of a shitty bronze players who has no business giving ideas.
Infestors should get an ability that throws a leech on a target that sucks the energy out of a target over time and does damage similar to the energy sucked.
If we go against Skyterran or Skytoss and we can't kill them before we do, we're almost always fucked. Corrupters are suppose to be our counter, but they do shit damage unless in massive numbers (and even then it's almost hopeless against skyterran with a decent amount of point-defense drones). The easiest solution is to change their bonus damage from massive to armored, but they're still boring that way. My idea would be to give them neural parasite (must be researched at Spire) instead.
Just the thoughts of a shitty bronze players who has no business giving ideas.
Zerg and Terran so good
Hilarious Imba League 1v1v1v1 Zombie mode
http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=wSQYuHiXf8s
Imba Laegue is that 'fuck it gimmick of the month ladder mode' idea I've had but taken to even Zannier levels.
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Next week, you'll find that a brand new Feat of Strength achievement and three exclusive character portraits are yours for the taking. What's more, those of you who haven't quite reached max level in Heart of the Swarm will be pleased to know that during this time, we're offering a 100% bonus to all XP gains during this time. You read that correctly. For seven full days, you'll earn double the normal amount of experience points, so you can hit the books and still earn those levels.
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/11038315
http://us.battle.net/sc2/en/blog/11038315
Zerg and Terran so good
terran so much skill
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Zerg player was skilled, you mean
Crazy good or crazy bad?
Huk said:
http://youtu.be/zGTye6Bv-I0
This is the first time I have ever watched one of these and it was actually really funny.
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
Come on guys, I leave for so many hours and still no post here? Should I start the next controversial subject on the list and PM V_Arnold about it?
unknownstranger
Member
Crimsonlink
Member
The best counter to Widow Mines is BroodLords or Swarm Hosts as they can trigger the mine for free. Sadly most Zergs need to go Muta to survive and that leads to defeat.
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
First, you've got 18 hours of inactivity in this thread.
Widowmine is mentioned, suddenly 3 (4, with this) posts in mere minutes :lol
I love you guys
Widowmine is mentioned, suddenly 3 (4, with this) posts in mere minutes :lol
I love you guys
By the time any zerg can get broods or swarm hosts, the mines have already done their damage. They're just too late to be considered a serious counter, and with the pressure that mines plus marines can put on, zerg is unlikely to have enough expansions to support those late units. They can be targeted by mutas with an overseer spotter, but it takes pretty serious micro, and while the zerg is focused on this forward advance, drops are tearing their bases apart.
Corran Horn
May the Schwartz be with you
Yoshichan
And they made him a Lord of Cinder. Not for virtue, but for might. Such is a lord, I suppose. But here I ask. Do we have a sodding chance?
First, watch this: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zGTye6Bv-I0
Then read this Tweet: https://twitter.com/LorangerChris/status/381426476228173824
IdrA got owned
Then read this Tweet: https://twitter.com/LorangerChris/status/381426476228173824
IdrA got owned