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Startropics, Mother/Earthbound, and Legend of Stafy: Why not, Nintendo?

So I'm sitting here playing Densetsu no Stafy 4 for the Nintendo DS and I'm loving the hell out of it. I was introduced to the series long before Stafy's SSBB cameo when a friend of mine pointed out the series and swore up and down to me that it was the next Kirby - and it really is. It's fun as hell, has a charming cast of characters, fully embraces its cute factor with final bosses that tend to lean towards hard as hell.

It's got all the charisma of Kirby with an undersea theme and without the enemy stealing tactics.

As for Mother - we all know the situation with this.

Then there's Startropics - this is the only Nintendo franchise that was made for USA and Europe, but not for Japan. It got a sequel on the NES, is fondly remembered, but because it had no exposure in Japan it's lain dormant for YEARS with the exception of the VC release (was that made available to Japanese gamers either?)

People on the inside know it exists but nothing is done about it.

For a company that took a HUGE risk with the whole Wii gambit and won and continues to take risks the system and some of thier core games (Celda/Galaxy's gameplay) they're still very reluctant to push the button with their more out of the way stuff. If it weren't for Brawl we'd never have gotten Fire Emblem - yet American and European gamers embraced the series. Why don't you think Ninty will do the same things with these three series considering they seem to pop up on the backburner quite often?

Makes me think that if Kirby came out in this day and age instead of then when they took more risks (and let's be honest, the first Kirby game is a classic but it doesn't have much meat on it compared to latter games in the series), we'd never have gotten the little pink thing at all, which would be a crying shame.

What's Nintendo's prob with reviving/introducing these three series you think?
 

SantaC

Gold Member
Jun 11, 2004
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yeah startropics Wii would be fun actually. In some ways it was better than zelda.
 

worldrunover

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Jun 6, 2004
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I liked Star Tropics, but I don't know if it would play out well today. The whole "guess which tile to jump to next or fall into a pit of death" is kind of old.

As for Starfy, I never played it and have no idea what his assist trophy actually does in SSBB.
 

NotWii

Banned
May 1, 2006
13,884
0
0
HEY NINTENDO, WHERE'S COOKING NAVI ENGLISH!?

Sometimes I really hate this company.
 

El_TigroX

Member
Apr 9, 2007
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The Mother/Earthbound thing still confuses the hell out of me. Why Nintendo of America would shun that game so publicly is just weird.
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
May 21, 2006
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Stafy's lack of localization probably has more to do with TOSE than Nintendo. Stafy is a TOSE property 100%. Nintendo just published the game. Now, it's possible that Nintendo didn't offer TOSE a good enough deal for localization, but again it's almost certainly in their hands.

I think people really over-exaggerate NOA's stance on Mother. I'm sure there were internal discussions about localizing Mother 3, the decision was made that it probably wasn't worth it, a while later Nintendo changed their mind but had missed the boat on a viable commercial GBA release.

Mother fans normally follow up this train of logic with "They can use the fan-translation and do a limited online-only release so we can buy it and we're willing to pay $99.99 so they can charge a fortune and look at this fan art we did!!!!" which is not a productive attitude.

StarTropics I think is the most valid point of the three... But it's sort of this weird gamer thing where every single good game has to have dozens of sequels. People clamoring for a new Golgo 1 or a new Star Tropics or a new Bushido Blade or a new Actraiser often sound to me like people asking for a remake of Citizen Kane or a sequel to Glengarry Glenn Ross. I mean, yeah, those products could hypothetically be quite good, but so could any other number of millions of products.

Nintendo does too few new IPs as it is, why would we encourage them to dig up all their old ones instead of pushing them in a positive new direction. Especially with StarTropics and Kid Icarus, the core mechanics of the games are so damned old and the characters so inadequate for a modern game that it'd basically have to be a totally new game keeping only the same two-line description as the originals. What would StarTropics even be at this point? It was a more western friendly, modern Zelda back in the day. Is that even something that can be marketed now? Is a yo-yo still really in the zeitgeist these days? Would a yo-yo work in 3d? Yeah, sure, you can answer all of these questions and come up with a StarTropics 3, but for an equal amount of effort you can start from scratch and have just as much potential with none of the constraints the old IP gives.

Plus, who in the company wants to make a StarTropics 3? Most dev teams could be forced to work on a new StarTropics, but I'm sure most corporations as large as Nintendo allow their teams at least a little bit of freedom to pitch ideas rather than being stuck with a game by the corporate hierarchy. Which dev team is clamoring to make ST3?

Genyo Takeda is no longer actively involved in development. Masato Hatakeyama hasn't done a game since PilotWings 64... maybe jarrod or someone could post where he is now. Minoru Arakawa is retired. Kazuo Yoneyama is in hardware development AFAIK since his last project was the engineering on the DS Lite. Makoto Wada AFAIK hasn't done anything since Super Punch-Out!!! Y. Hirai hasn't done anything since StarTropics 2... so literally every single person of influence involved with the game is no longer in active game development.

It's a rare rare rare event when something like Okami Wii happens (Ready at Dawn approaching Capcom and asking to do the port). It's very unlikely that any external company has expressed interest in continuing the franchise to Nintendo.

Of course, you never know. We don't know what most of Nintendo's major dev teams are currently working on.
 

Teknoman

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Nov 7, 2007
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El_TigroX said:
The Mother/Earthbound thing still confuses the hell out of me. Why Nintendo of America would shun that game so publicly is just weird.
Might as well post my email here too:

Hello and thank you for contacting Nintendo, I can understand your desire to see the Mother/Earthbound series (particularly number three) released outside Japan, and at this time no announcements have been made regarding such an occurrence.

Be sure to check Nintendo's website "What's New" page (www.nintendo.com/whatsnew) from time to time to see if any of these game titles are announced for release sometime in the future. Thank you for your e-mail. Nintendo of America Inc.Alex Loren


NINTENDOOOOOOO!
 

Link1110

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Jan 20, 2005
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Star Tropics was never released in Japan. Nintendo probably doesn't want to take a chance.

Or they could just localize them on VC.
 

pgtl_10

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May 25, 2005
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Well keep in mind that practically all major Nintendo will be released by June. They might be planning to revive a few franchises or making new ones altogether.
 

El_TigroX

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Apr 9, 2007
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Stumpokapow said:
Especially with StarTropics and Kid Icarus, the core mechanics of the games are so damned old and the characters so inadequate for a modern game that it'd basically have to be a totally new game keeping only the same two-line description as the originals.
Metroid Prime says hi. While I agreed with everything else you said, I don't agree with this line. Updating a character or a series isn't something new. Look at Ninja Gaiden or even you can make the argument for Metal Gear Solid. Those characters can be reinvented and the core concepts translated. Would it be easy? Not really. Is it possible? Yes.
 

Fireblend

Banned
Jul 22, 2006
20,645
0
0
First Mother 1 + 2 on GBA
Then Mother 3
Then Mother 2 on VC
Then Mother 2 on Brawl's masterpieces.

Nintendo hates us D:
 

MoogPaul

Member
Dec 28, 2007
3,312
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0
The rumor down the pipe is that Mother 2 is not hitting the VC because of complications with the soundtrack. Apparently, some of the songs from the game, according to current day laws, may cut into some copyrights, specifically the Hippie Theme cutting into some songs from Sgt. Pepper's by The Beatles. This rumor is given creditability by the fact that the Hippie Theme was supposed to and has been found on that list of dropped SSBB music on the disc.
 

pgtl_10

Member
May 25, 2005
6,458
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El_TigroX said:
Metroid Prime says hi. While I agreed with everything else you said, I don't agree with this line. Updating a character or a series isn't something new. Look at Ninja Gaiden or even you can make the argument for Metal Gear Solid. Those characters can be reinvented and the core concepts translated. Would it be easy? Not really. Is it possible? Yes.

Nintendo has a great track record making 3D games off of 2D franchises:

1. Metroid Prime
2. Super Mario 64
3. Legend of Zelda: The Ocarina of Time
4. Pilotwings 64
5. Starfox 64
6. Mariokart 64

Nintendo is the one company that can give old franchises a proper 3D game. They should tell Sega and Konami to give them license the Sonic and Castlevania franchises to Nintendo so those franchises can get a proper 3D version of the series.
 

ethelred

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Dec 19, 2005
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Stumpokapow said:
I think people really over-exaggerate NOA's stance on Mother.
Until the point comes in which America has Mother 3 or a Mother 1+2+3 compilation, I don't think it's possible to exaggerate that stance.

Stumpokapow said:
People clamoring for a new Golgo 1 or a new Star Tropics or a new Bushido Blade or a new Actraiser often sound to me like people asking for a remake of Citizen Kane or a sequel to Glengarry Glenn Ross.
Games aren't movies, though. They're not isolated narratives presented via one-shot-only acting and directing, where any subsequent attempt would be impossible to duplicate. That's setting aside the fact that remakes and sequels are vastly different things. If a game has solid mechanics and does something in a very unique way, it's natural to want to see a sequel that retains that style and gameplay and evolves them. For instance, in the case of ActRaiser, I still haven't seen another game ever that combined its simple mix of actiony platforming and simulation. Why wouldn't I want to see a new game take that simple yet very effective mix and enhance it further?

Stumpokapow said:
Especially with StarTropics and Kid Icarus, the core mechanics of the games are so damned old and the characters so inadequate for a modern game that it'd basically have to be a totally new game keeping only the same two-line description as the originals.
In Kid Icarus, the core mechanic is exploratory vertical adventuring/platforming, no? I don't see that as so inherently archaic or unpalatable to modern norms that it'd be impractical as a new game. And just like with ActRaiser, it's the sort of obvious thing that not a lot of games are doing what that one did. I think the simple element of orienting most of the gameplay in a vertical instead of horizontal direction makes a big deal in establishing the game as unique.

I don't want a 3D one, though.
 

Amir0x

Banned
Oct 27, 2004
103,711
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ethelred said:
Until the point comes in which America has Mother 3 or a Mother 1+2+3 compilation, I don't think it's possible to exaggerate that stance.
Plus I mean, they removed the Mother 2 demo from the American version of Smash Bros. Brawl. I mean, a game they actually have IN ENGLISH ALREADY they removed the demo of, in exactly the type of game that would help promote the franchise in America.

I think that proves there's no "exaggerating" their stance. Nintendo doesn't like gamer people.
 

charlequin

Banned
Oct 19, 2005
26,635
1
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Stumpokapow said:
I think people really over-exaggerate NOA's stance on Mother. I'm sure there were internal discussions about localizing Mother 3, the decision was made that it probably wasn't worth it, a while later Nintendo changed their mind but had missed the boat on a viable commercial GBA release.
Alternately, I think people under-exaggerate the crappiness of NOA's publication decisions in general, as if Earthbound is some sort of special exception. Tingle's Rosy-Colored Rupeeland (even with an English translation already done for EU release) and the first GBA FE didn't come out here, and it's unlikely that ASH or Soma Bringer will hit over here either. NOA just doesn't historically seem interested in bringing out more niche stuff (especially in the RPG genre) unless GameCube-level software deserts force them to find something to get out there.
 

ethelred

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Dec 19, 2005
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Amir0x said:
Plus I mean, they removed the Mother 2 demo from the American version of Smash Bros. Brawl. I mean, a game they actually have IN ENGLISH ALREADY they removed the demo of, in exactly the type of game that would help promote the franchise in America.
That's a really good point.
 

fernoca

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Sep 17, 2006
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Noo..Nintendo hates us..
I mean..
They just released in the US one of the games with the most Nintendo (or any game) fan service ...ever..and next month they are releasing a new Mario Kart game....but they still hate us!!!

The thing about Earthbound, is that some people seem to forget that NOA went "all out" to release the SNES game: they advertised it quite well, they even bundled a strategy guide with it..but only like 3 people bought it....and then people complain that Nintendo doesn't take risks..
 

Shikamaru Ninja

任天堂 の 忍者
Stafy's lack of localization probably has more to do with TOSE than Nintendo. Stafy is a TOSE property 100%. Nintendo just published the game. Now, it's possible that Nintendo didn't offer TOSE a good enough deal for localization, but again it's almost certainly in their hands.
What? Nintendo is listed in the copyrights of Starfy (its even in Smash Bros). Hitoshi Yamagami is the producer. Nintendo's SPD2 unit produced the game with Tose developing it. It was a relationship and a game built during Game & Watch 4. Nintendo has absolutely everything to do with the game not being localized as the publisher and primary IP holder. (c) Nintendo / Tose.

All of NCL's games go through NOA Tree House if NOA decides to bring the game over. Despite if the sub-contractor is Camelot or Tose or Hudson.
 

JzeroT1437

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Oct 10, 2006
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I'll probably be chastised for this, but NES Startropics is complete ass nowadays. Seriously, go play it. Utterly terrible.
 

MoogPaul

Member
Dec 28, 2007
3,312
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0
fernoca said:
Noo..Nintendo hates us..
I mean..
They just released in the US one of the games with the most Nintendo (or any game) fan service ...ever..and next month they are releasing a new Mario Kart game....but they still hate us!!!

The thing about Earthbound, is that some people seem to forget that NOA went "all out" to release the SNES game: they advertised it quite well, they even bundled a strategy guide with it..but only like 3 people bought it....and then people complain that Nintendo doesn't take risks..
well consider me one of those three. I saved up coins when I was in grade school for months, clipped the 10 dollar coupon from nintendo power and purchased my massive boxed Earthbound at a KB Toys. I've earned my sequel...
 

charlequin

Banned
Oct 19, 2005
26,635
1
1,405
Stumpokapow said:
StarTropics I think is the most valid point of the three... But it's sort of this weird gamer thing where every single good game has to have dozens of sequels. People clamoring for a new Golgo 1 or a new Star Tropics or a new Bushido Blade or a new Actraiser often sound to me like people asking for a remake of Citizen Kane or a sequel to Glengarry Glenn Ross. I mean, yeah, those products could hypothetically be quite good, but so could any other number of millions of products.
I think you're kind of off-base here. People are a lot more accepting of "spiritual sequels" in games than they are in movies, because in many (obviously not all) cases, the gameplay (or "feel") of a game is what fans want to see come back.

Star Tropics has a vaguely interesting setting compared to its NES brethren but nothing particularly interesting gameplay-wise; we're not really missing anything by not seeing it revisited (though I do think it'd make a great choice for a DS or WiiWare lower-budget title.) But look at the other two games you list. No other title (not even the actual Bushido Blade 2) has provided the kind of fighting gameplay that was invented (but by no means perfected) in Bushido Blade. Nothing else has really wedded the two genres that ActRaiser straddles as effectively (again, including ActRaiser 2). People would want sequels to these games because the sort of gameplay they provide simply isn't available anywhere else.


Amir0x said:
Plus I mean, they removed the Mother 2 demo from the American version of Smash Bros. Brawl.
Yeah, I keep forgetting this. :lol Conveniently "forgetting" to localize Mother 3 when it was originally released (so they can avoid releasing a game with kid-friendly visuals that contains terrorists and gay people) is one thing, but the constant repeated unwillingness to release Earthbound in any capacity (a demo in Smash, a VC release of the already-in-English SNES ROM, or a translation of the Mother 1+2 cart) is really hard to see as anything other than an ongoing contempt for the serious/niche/RPG-loving/insert-category-here gamers of the US.
 

ethelred

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Dec 19, 2005
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fernoca said:
Noo..Nintendo hates us..
I mean..
They just released in the US one of the games with the most Nintendo (or any game) fan service ...ever..and next month they are releasing a new Mario Kart game....but they still hate us!!!
Well, some people can placated with fanwank; others want the actual games.

fernoca said:
The thing about Earthbound, is that some people seem to forget that NOA went "all out" to release the SNES game: they advertised it quite well, they even bundled a strategy guide with it..but only like 3 people bought it....and then people complain that Nintendo doesn't take risks..
This justification doesn't fly at all.

Not every game is going to be as wildly successful as every single Mario X permutation the company throws out, but gamers aren't going to accept that as a valid excuse for refusing to give a crap about anything below that line of success -- even when there's an enormously dedicated and devoted fanbase clamoring for new stuff or releases of the existing stuff, only to see it fall on deaf ears.
 

fernoca

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Not to mention, that many seem to focus on NOA..
Yet, NOA can't make decisions (like translating games) unless NOJ approves..even more when the original game comes from NOJ... (heck, maybe it was NOJ decision to remove the Mother 2 demo, not NOA..but NOA is evil right?)

Most of the interviews and Q&As regarding Earthbound/Mother seem to only bother NOA about the situation, so why not start asking and bothering the ones at NOJ?

Next time someone from any site manages to interview Iwata or something I don't know ask about Earthbound, show them the websites and petitions of the people asking for it..less focus on NOA, because in the end NOJ is the one that has the game in there..
 

MoxManiac

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MoogPaul said:
The rumor down the pipe is that Mother 2 is not hitting the VC because of complications with the soundtrack. Apparently, some of the songs from the game, according to current day laws, may cut into some copyrights, specifically the Hippie Theme cutting into some songs from Sgt. Pepper's by The Beatles. This rumor is given creditability by the fact that the Hippie Theme was supposed to and has been found on that list of dropped SSBB music on the disc.
Can't they just replace the offending songs? I'd hate to have EB altered but it would be better than nothing.
 

Lhadatt

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Jun 26, 2004
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Amir0x said:
Plus I mean, they removed the Mother 2 demo from the American version of Smash Bros. Brawl. I mean, a game they actually have IN ENGLISH ALREADY they removed the demo of, in exactly the type of game that would help promote the franchise in America.

I think that proves there's no "exaggerating" their stance. Nintendo doesn't like gamer people.
Like < 1% of their customer base would buy a Mother1+2+3 cart or VC release. Nintendo would have to get the lawyers to clear everything, and that means redoing parts that could be infringing on other non-Nintendo copyrights. See below.

MoogPaul said:
The rumor down the pipe is that Mother 2 is not hitting the VC because of complications with the soundtrack. Apparently, some of the songs from the game, according to current day laws, may cut into some copyrights, specifically the Hippie Theme cutting into some songs from Sgt. Pepper's by The Beatles. This rumor is given creditability by the fact that the Hippie Theme was supposed to and has been found on that list of dropped SSBB music on the disc.
They'll have to pay someone to redo the music, pay someone to hack it into the ROM or recode the game, pay someone to repack it for a cart or VC, pay the testers, and then pay for distributing it. It wouldn't make back what they paid in.

Working Designs was the only company that is crazy enough to take a project like this on, and we all know how that ended up.
 

MoogPaul

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MoxManiac said:
Can't they just replace the offending songs? I'd hate to have EB altered but it would be better than nothing.
I'm not sure what the deal is. I heard they were trying to work something out, but for those who don't know, The Beatles music log is owned by Michael Jackson. Last time I checked, that guy was batshit nuts.
 

charlequin

Banned
Oct 19, 2005
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fernoca said:
Yet, NOA can't make decisions (like translating games) unless NOJ approves..
This is an obviously ridiculous concept. The reason that an NOA exists in the first place is to make decisions about the American market so that NOJ doesn't have to micromanage releases in another continent. While I'm sure there are strategic dictates about how major titles will be handled, I doubt this extends to how to fill out the lineup with niche titles like Mother 3.

The idea that NOA really really wanted to bring this game out and got cockblocked by mean ol' NOJ (the company who published the game in the first place) is totally unbelievable.


EDIT: That story about the Beatles is also a load of crap. The motif references in Earthbound's soundtrack are minimal; the only one I think someone would pick out at a casual listen is the end-area music, which is really just sampling "La Marseillaise." :lol This is just another way of saying, "oh, Nintendo really wants to bring the game out, but those BAD PEOPLE ARE STOPPING THEM!"
 

Stumpokapow

listen to the mad man
May 21, 2006
17,232
3
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ethelred said:
Games aren't movies, though. They're not isolated narratives presented via one-shot-only acting and directing, where any subsequent attempt would be impossible to duplicate. That's setting aside the fact that remakes and sequels are vastly different things. If a game has solid mechanics and does something in a very unique way, it's natural to want to see a sequel that retains that style and gameplay and evolves them. For instance, in the case of ActRaiser, I still haven't seen another game ever that combined its simple mix of actiony platforming and simulation. Why wouldn't I want to see a new game take that simple yet very effective mix and enhance it further?
Oh, I personally wouldn't mind an ActRaiser 3... but I also wouldn't mind a game that effectively combines the two parts of ActRaiser but is not within the AR franchise. Hell, I'd even be willing to give up the Dante's Inferno narrative and gothic art of the second game. And this is my point--sometimes it seems like gamers clamor for sequels to quality products when they could just clamor for quality products regardless of whether or not they're original games or sequels.

Ninja edit: I think I probably explain myself more clearly in response to charlequin later in this post.

In Kid Icarus, the core mechanic is exploratory vertical adventuring/platforming, no? I don't see that as so inherently archaic or unpalatable to modern norms that it'd be impractical as a new game. And just like with ActRaiser, it's the sort of obvious thing that not a lot of games are doing what that one did. I think the simple element of orienting most of the gameplay in a vertical instead of horizontal direction makes a big deal in establishing the game as unique.
It wouldn't be unpalatable on the DS... but you're kidding if you think a 2d platformer would be viable on the Wii. I totally failed in not qualifying my earlier post that I was essentially referring to Metroid Prime-like sequels/re-imaginings rather than new installments of old games on the DS.

Obviously it's probably a good idea for Nintendo to still make use of their old IPs in ways that they can, and the DS is a great outlet for that. I just don't get fans who want to shoehorn ancient IP into modern gaming rather than build up great new concepts.


RE: Earthbound VC / Super Smash Bros Brawl; I suspect that EB isn't in the Brawl masterpieces because it isn't coming to VC any time soon. Now, as to why it's not coming to VC any time soon? Nintendo is fucking dumb, that's why. No defence on that one.

charlequin said:
Alternately, I think people under-exaggerate the crappiness of NOA's publication decisions in general, as if Earthbound is some sort of special exception. Tingle's Rosy-Colored Rupeeland (even with an English translation already done for EU release) and the first GBA FE didn't come out here, and it's unlikely that ASH or Soma Bringer will hit over here either. NOA just doesn't historically seem interested in bringing out more niche stuff (especially in the RPG genre) unless GameCube-level software deserts force them to find something to get out there.
I agree with you on these issues. Nintendo makes a shit-ton of poor publication decisions. I firmly believe that Soma Bringer will get a domestic release, ASH is a maybe. Tingle and Cooking Navi are inexplicable by anyone sane. Sin & Punishment, Doshin the Giant, the bungled Cubivore deal last generation, Wii Chess this generation, and god knows how many other examples exist of Nintendo publishing or localizing poor products while refusing to localize good ones.

In a lot of cases, Nintendo's localization decisions are not reality based. I just think that in the case of people looking for Mother 3 GBA / more Mother games, the fans are not reality based.

Shikamaru Ninja said:
What? Nintendo is listed in the copyrights of Starfy (its even in Smash Bros). Hitoshi Yamagami is the producer. Nintendo's SPD2 unit produced the game with Tose developing it. It was a relationship and a game built during Game & Watch 4. Nintendo has absolutely everything to do with the game not being localized as the publisher and primary IP holder. (c) Nintendo / Tose.

All of NCL's games go through NOA Tree House if NOA decides to bring the game over. Despite if the sub-contractor is Camelot or Tose or Hudson.
I have no reason to doubt you. I've only played Stafy 4. My info was based on that 1up piece on TOSE from a few years ago (here which seemed to suggest that for Stafy, TOSE was the owner and Nintendo acted as publisher.) A re-read seems to suggest that it's closer to what you're saying.

charlequin said:
I think you're kind of off-base here. People are a lot more accepting of "spiritual sequels" in games than they are in movies, because in many (obviously not all) cases, the gameplay (or "feel") of a game is what fans want to see come back.
What I'm referring to here is not simply fans wanting to see more of the same great gameplay, it's fans mythologizing Mike Jones or Pit and hypothesizing 3d installments of the IP that have little to do with the theme or narrative of the original games. To some extent, Nintendo feeds this by doing things like creating a 3d Pit / Palutena for Smash Bros Brawl...

I guess what I'm saying is that when a good movie has a good sequel, it involves most of the original cast and crew (or is blessed by them) and continues the narrative and the unique elements of the original in a respectful way. When I hear a lot of fans asking for sequels to old games, it tends to be more in the fan fiction sense--re-purposing of previously existing characters into an inauthentic and non-cohesive new work that bares little resemblance to the original.

Like I mentioned to ethel earlier in this post, I'm all for new games that expand upon these original games in a good way. I'd be happy for an ActRaiser 3 on DS. I'd be happy for a Bushido Blade 3 that continued the heritage of the original. I'd be happy for a Kid Icarus on DS. I would not be happy if the names of those three games were slapped onto new products willy-nilly simply because of a nostalgic remembrance rather than a heritage of quality.

Look at the new Bionic Commando. Takes the name. Takes the core mechanic. Updates everything including the core mechanic to fit modern gameplay. Plus, Capcom has experience from Lost Planet and Dead Rising in terms of the engine they're using and the general feel of gameplay. Ta-da! This is a good idea, and I'm happy if companies do this. What would make me unhappy would be if Capcom had transplanted Super Joe and the music from Bionic Commando into a new game that was their first shot at that genre without really any planning.

I think Parasite Eve 2 and Bushido Blade 2 are both pretty good examples of products that fail in the way that I think most fan's demands do. Both, while quite alright on their own, did a disservice to their predecessors by taking things superficially rather than imaginatively.
 

Link1110

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Lhadatt said:
Like < 1% of their customer base would buy a Mother1+2+3 cart or VC release. Nintendo would have to get the lawyers to clear everything, and that means redoing parts that could be infringing on other non-Nintendo copyrights. See below.



They'll have to pay someone to redo the music, pay someone to hack it into the ROM or recode the game, pay someone to repack it for a cart or VC, pay the testers, and then pay for distributing it. It wouldn't make back what they paid in.

Working Designs was the only company that is crazy enough to take a project like this on, and we all know how that ended up.
WD may no longet be around, but don't forget about NIS or Atlus USA. Both of those companies seem to be carrying the WD torch, if you will, since WD went under. It's too bad beither of those companies can pick up Mother, just look at Disgaea or Makai Kingdom to see how good of a job they'd do on Mother.
 

ethelred

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Link1110 said:
WD may no longet be around, but don't forget about NIS or Atlus USA. Both of those companies seem to be carrying the WD torch, if you will, since WD went under. It's too bad beither of those companies can pick up Mother, just look at Disgaea or Makai Kingdom to see how good of a job they'd do on Mother.
Atlus was positively chomping at the bit to do Mother 3 for Nintendo, from what I heard. Nintendo shot them down on it.

Let's also remember that Working Designs didn't fold because they picked niche games to localize and went all out in the doing; the company went down because its management pissed off some bad people to piss off and because the largest hardware manufacturer decided to fuck the company over by sabotaging its releases.

fernoca said:
Not to mention, that many seem to focus on NOA..
Yet, NOA can't make decisions (like translating games) unless NOJ approves..even more when the original game comes from NOJ... (heck, maybe it was NOJ decision to remove the Mother 2 demo, not NOA..but NOA is evil right?)
This has elements of truth to it, and it's why I said Nintendo hates gamers, not just NoA.
 

Teknoman

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Btw i've gotta ask, since some of the Earthbound character artists went to work on Contact...and since Grasshopper was involved in Contact...maybe they could nudge help out in getting Mother back on "track" in english speaking territories? I mean look at how much No More Heroes is liked by others. Even though Suda51 had nothing to do with Contact to my understanding, if people now saw Grasshopper somewhere on the game...maybe it would sell more?

I dunno, maybe im just rambling.
 

charlequin

Banned
Oct 19, 2005
26,635
1
1,405
Stumpokapow said:
It wouldn't be unpalatable on the DS... but you're kidding if you think a 2d platformer would be viable on the Wii.
This is what WiiWare is for, no? If N can be a hit over on the X360, I'm sure a 2d platformer can do well on the download service of the fugly-games console. :lol

Now, as to why it's not coming to VC any time soon? Nintendo is fucking dumb, that's why. No defence on that one.
It seems to even go past dumb. (Dumb is the overall approach taken to the US VC.) Unlike Mother 3, Earthbound-on-VC is all upside: no dev costs, and a big market of crazy Earthbound fans you can con into buying the game (then buying it over and over again as a gift for everyone on their friendslist) under the futile hope that it'll lead to a Mother 3 localization.

I agree with you on these issues. Nintendo makes a shit-ton of poor publication decisions.
I just don't think anyone with sense has ever worked in this area at Nintendo. The 8-bit-era strategy involved creating a dramatically different image of the NES from the Famicom, and I think that "difference" has carried over way past its point of utility, and even gone back to infect the mothership -- witness Nintendo's "kiddy" reputation.

I firmly believe that Soma Bringer will get a domestic release, ASH is a maybe. Tingle and Cooking Navi are inexplicable by anyone sane.
I'm more cynical and have decided that if either of those games were going to hit US shores they would have told us by now.

Tingle is actually pretty easily explicable: games with cartoony art have to be scrubbed down to G-rated status, but Tingle "looks gay." Earthbound/Mother 3 has kind of the same problem: by sticking satire into a "cute" package it might risk making one psychotic jerkoff parent upset.

What I'm referring to here is not simply fans wanting to see more of the same great gameplay, it's fans mythologizing Mike Jones or Pit and hypothesizing 3d installments of the IP that have little to do with the theme or narrative of the original games.
Oh sure, but those people are crazy. I never understood why people wanted a badass Kid Icarus starring a 3d Pitt who smoked and had an on-again-off-again relationship with a bimbo girlfriend, but the fact that there isn't a vertical-scrolling platformer of some kind on the freaking DS is really nothing short of criminal.

I agree that it'd be better in that case to just make some new IPs, and it's pretty lame that Nintendo don't seem too excited about doing that -- if third parties aren't going to actually take advantage of the Wiimote, it'd be nice if Nintendo would push its boundaries a little further.

ethelred said:
Let's also remember that Working Designs didn't fold because they picked niche games to localize and went all out in the doing; the company went down because its management pissed off some bad people to piss off and because the largest hardware manufacturer decided to fuck the company over by sabotaging its releases.
Well, let's be fair here. Working Designs worked very, very hard to carefully sabotage their own games in advance to give Sony a leg up.
 

jesusraz

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Stumpokapow said:
Stafy's lack of localization probably has more to do with TOSE than Nintendo. Stafy is a TOSE property 100%. Nintendo just published the game. Now, it's possible that Nintendo didn't offer TOSE a good enough deal for localization, but again it's almost certainly in their hands.
Well, that's not quite true, to be honest:

Gamasutra: And Starfy still isn't going to be released overseas?

TOSE: We really want Starfy to be released here, but it's ultimately Nintendo's decision. I don't know why they don't push Starfy in the U.S., but it's very tough.
And here are some snippets from an interview I did back in June 2006:

Cubed3.com: Who was it that created the star character for the Legend of Starfy games, Nintendo or Tose? How did the idea arise and who holds the official rights to the game now?

TOSE: The copyright of The Legend of Starfy is owned by both Nintendo and Tose. The two companied created ideas and characters through discussions.

C3: Due to the huge DS userbase now, can fans who imported the GBA titles expect a greater chance of seeing the DS game being released outside Japan?

TOSE: We cannot answer this question because Nintendo is responsible for determining and announcing the marketing policy of the game.

C3: What do you see in Starfy's future? Has any thought gone into a full home console version, perhaps for the Nintendo Wii? And would we ever see any Starfy spin-off games, breaking out of the platform genre?

TOSE: We cannot answer this question because, as we have already explained, it is Nintendo that is responsible for determining the marketing policy.
And Stafy 3 on GBA is one of the best platform titles for that system, I reckon!
 

leroy hacker

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Apr 17, 2007
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These three games are completely different cases. One is a children's platformer, one is an 8-bit franchise that wasn't very good to begin with, and one is the greatest jRPG.


There are many good reasons, which other people in this thread have pointed out, why the Star Tropics franchise is dead. And I don't care whether or not any more Stafy games are made.

But as for EB, it really does seem like Nintendo likes to spit on its fans, given the demo removal in SSBB. The hippie music issue, which I hadn't heard before, is plausible, but Nintendo never makes public statements about such things so the fans can only wonder. Has any journalist tried to ask Nintendo why it was removed?

Even if they had no comment, one could at least mention that in an article. That is what the mainstream media usually does. There are two possibilities I see here-either the gaming media doesn't care about Earthbound or Nintendo doesn't want them talking about it and the media is happy to do as they say.



Teknoman said:
Btw i've gotta ask, since some of the Earthbound character artists went to work on Contact...
Your premise is false. No EB artists worked on Contact. The only connection between the staff of Contact and notable past RPGs is that Akira Ueda, the director of Contact, did backgrounds in Super Mario RPG and the world map in Secret of Mana.
 

Lhadatt

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Link1110 said:
WD may no longet be around, but don't forget about NIS or Atlus USA. Both of those companies seem to be carrying the WD torch, if you will, since WD went under. It's too bad beither of those companies can pick up Mother, just look at Disgaea or Makai Kingdom to see how good of a job they'd do on Mother.
NIS is low-budget and generally won't do anything other than their own stuff. There are exceptions, but I think this amounts to owners of the company being close friends with owners of the other companies they're working with - meetings over lunch, etc.

Atlus could have done this 3 years ago, but not now. The market wouldn't take it.

I will say this again. < 1% of the user base will buy these games. It's not profitable, and that's what matters at the end of the day. I'm sure Nintendo would do it if they thought they could profit, but they have people dedicated to analyzing costs and determining if an action taken by the corporation is viable for the company's bottom line.

Sorry, the hardcore won't win this one. Find your ROMs, pick your battles.
 

ethelred

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Lhadatt said:
Atlus could have done this 3 years ago, but not now. The market wouldn't take it.
Atlus tried to do it three years ago. Nintendo shot them down.

The market wasn't the issue.

Lhadatt said:
I will say this again. < 1% of the user base will buy these games. It's not profitable, and that's what matters at the end of the day. I'm sure Nintendo would do it if they thought they could profit, but they have people dedicated to analyzing costs and determining if an action taken by the corporation is viable for the company's bottom line.
It absolutely would be profitable. It just wouldn't be profitable enough. And this is basically the problem with Nintendo in a nutshell.
 

farnham

Banned
Nov 18, 2006
18,018
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0
35
Germany (Bayern)
Stumpokapow said:
Stafy's lack of localization probably has more to do with TOSE than Nintendo. Stafy is a TOSE property 100%. Nintendo just published the game. Now, it's possible that Nintendo didn't offer TOSE a good enough deal for localization, but again it's almost certainly in their hands.

I think people really over-exaggerate NOA's stance on Mother. I'm sure there were internal discussions about localizing Mother 3, the decision was made that it probably wasn't worth it, a while later Nintendo changed their mind but had missed the boat on a viable commercial GBA release.

Mother fans normally follow up this train of logic with "They can use the fan-translation and do a limited online-only release so we can buy it and we're willing to pay $99.99 so they can charge a fortune and look at this fan art we did!!!!" which is not a productive attitude.

StarTropics I think is the most valid point of the three... But it's sort of this weird gamer thing where every single good game has to have dozens of sequels. People clamoring for a new Golgo 1 or a new Star Tropics or a new Bushido Blade or a new Actraiser often sound to me like people asking for a remake of Citizen Kane or a sequel to Glengarry Glenn Ross. I mean, yeah, those products could hypothetically be quite good, but so could any other number of millions of products.

Nintendo does too few new IPs as it is, why would we encourage them to dig up all their old ones instead of pushing them in a positive new direction. Especially with StarTropics and Kid Icarus, the core mechanics of the games are so damned old and the characters so inadequate for a modern game that it'd basically have to be a totally new game keeping only the same two-line description as the originals. What would StarTropics even be at this point? It was a more western friendly, modern Zelda back in the day. Is that even something that can be marketed now? Is a yo-yo still really in the zeitgeist these days? Would a yo-yo work in 3d? Yeah, sure, you can answer all of these questions and come up with a StarTropics 3, but for an equal amount of effort you can start from scratch and have just as much potential with none of the constraints the old IP gives.

Plus, who in the company wants to make a StarTropics 3? Most dev teams could be forced to work on a new StarTropics, but I'm sure most corporations as large as Nintendo allow their teams at least a little bit of freedom to pitch ideas rather than being stuck with a game by the corporate hierarchy. Which dev team is clamoring to make ST3?

Genyo Takeda is no longer actively involved in development. Masato Hatakeyama hasn't done a game since PilotWings 64... maybe jarrod or someone could post where he is now. Minoru Arakawa is retired. Kazuo Yoneyama is in hardware development AFAIK since his last project was the engineering on the DS Lite. Makoto Wada AFAIK hasn't done anything since Super Punch-Out!!! Y. Hirai hasn't done anything since StarTropics 2... so literally every single person of influence involved with the game is no longer in active game development.

It's a rare rare rare event when something like Okami Wii happens (Ready at Dawn approaching Capcom and asking to do the port). It's very unlikely that any external company has expressed interest in continuing the franchise to Nintendo.

Of course, you never know. We don't know what most of Nintendo's major dev teams are currently working on.

Hmmm but also starfy is in SSBB
 

Lhadatt

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ethelred said:
Atlus tried to do it three years ago. Nintendo shot them down.

The market wasn't the issue.
But it is now. And now is what we're talking about. Yes, I know DS has a large audience, so does VC. That's irrelevant. The release window for market acceptance of these games is over. We won't get them.

If we do, it will be Nintendo willingly doing something that will lose money, and they don't do that unless it's critical to the image or success of the company (example: Wii wrist-strap redo). > 99% of their current user base doesn't even know what Mother or Starfy are, so there's no reason for them to bother with these games.
 

Teknoman

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leroy hacker said:
Your premise is false. No EB artists worked on Contact. The only connection between the staff of Contact and notable past RPGs is that Akira Ueda, the director of Contact, did backgrounds in Super Mario RPG and the world map in Secret of Mana.
What about Recommendations from Starmen.net?

Starmen.net Recommendation section said:
When this game was announced, we thought it was a new MOTHER game on the DS. As it turns out, the graphics designers for this game are the same as the ones who worked on MOTHER 3. A very cool Dr. Andonuts cameo appears in this game. Contact really isn't like EarthBound, but it's still a fun and quirky RPG worth your time.
http://starmen.net/recommendations/
 

The Hermit

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About Mother: Could it be Itoi´s fault?
Maybe he doesn´t like the Westernalization of his game...

Removing Earthbound from SSBB makes it pretty clear: They won´t bring the Mother series here
or they just HATE Amir0x
 

jaundicejuice

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We'll get Earthbound on Virtual Console eventually. We have to. They're eventually going to run out of other Nintendo games to release on the service.
 

thefro

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It's pretty dumb that Mother 1 (which got a full NOA translation and is ready to go) and Earthbound aren't on Virtual Console yet. It's free money.

It does sound like translating Mother 3 isn't straightforward at all and requires some substantial reprogramming of the game, from everything the fan translators have reported. I still think it'd be quite profitable as a WiiWare project (just a translated port of the GBA game running on some kind of emulator).

Most of the Internet Nintendo fanboy army seems interested in the game, and that'll go up with Lucas in Brawl. The best thing would be to talk directly about it to Iwata at E3.

StarTropics is on VC already, and I'm sure the sequel will be.
 

leroy hacker

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Teknoman said:
What about Recommendations from Starmen.net?
They are wrong. No one from Contact worked on Mother 3. I went through Mobygames and found only one name is common between the credits for Contact and the Mother games, Junichi Akama. He was a writer for Contact and a debugger for EB so I doubt both credits even refer to the same person.

Further, that quote says Dr. Andonuts has a cameo in the game, which is also untrue. The only time what they wrote was even barely plausible was when Contact was first announced and the professor was the only known image from the game, but now it is known to be entirely false.

What they wrote is probably what they wanted to be true, when people hoped Contact would be a substitute for Mother.
 

lyre

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Sep 8, 2005
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Segata Sanshiro said:
It's Himuro's fault.

And Starfy is for babies, have some goddam self-respect.
All three game frachises in question are for babies. If you can't see past that, take off your fanboy slash nostalgia goggles.