Ingueferroque
Banned
A game like La Mulana should not have to go through Greenlight, this makes me lose a lot of faith in Valve.
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Steam Greenlight: 1000 games and counting, more Greenlit every few weeks
- Thread starter MRORANGE
- Start date
A game like La Mulana should not have to go through Greenlight, this makes me lose a lot of faith in Valve.
I don't know.
Greenlight seems more fair than the alternative system.
If people don't care enough to vote your game, well, it doesn't mean that is a bad game, but is not a game people want to buy.
Seems fair to me. Steam is a shop, not a museum of videogames.
I would suggest that there are already games that barely sell on Steam -- if they're decent quality, and no one downloads them, any negative affect on Valve should be super minimal.I don't know.
Greenlight seems more fair than the alternative system.
If people don't care enough to vote your game, well, it doesn't mean that is a bad game, but is not a game people want to buy.
Seems fair to me. Steam is a shop, not a museum of videogames.
And compare with the Pinball game people keep advocating -- it HAS been sold on other platforms, and been bought, and had a fair number of people voting for it if I recall correctly. There is almost certainly interest in that type of game, but Valve has apparently indicated they didn't feel it was a good fit, with basically no explanation as to why.
Miasmata is indeed janky. I don't suggest getting it unless you're okay with iffy graphics and awkward controls, like in Penumbra or DayZ but perhaps moreso. I wrote some more detailed early impressions in the Steam thread:According to community hub Miasmata seems to be a divisive game in the need of patches and MinerWars has always-online DRM + it remains the broken beta mess.
Check out community hub before buying new shit. The way it meant to be.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=44869554&postcount=593
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
It should make you lose faith in the community and the developers for completely failing to get an Internet hype train rolling.A game like La Mulana should not have to go through Greenlight, this makes me lose a lot of faith in Valve.
Ingueferroque
Banned
I don't know.
Greenlight seems more fair than the alternative system.
If people don't care enough to vote your game, well, it doesn't mean that is a bad game, but is not a game people want to buy.
Seems fair to me. Steam is a shop, not a museum of videogames.
I disagree. Sometimes I decide to click on Greenlight and will start voting for games in my list. But I seem to have no real control over what games are offered to me, and mostly it feels like 80% of it is from inexperienced bedroom programmers that haven't made a game yet outside of GameMaker. There seems to be an endless amount of these, with a few gems in-between.
But the voting process is slow and the interface arduous, making me just ignore Greenlight most of the time, which is convenient since it is hidden away in the Steam interface.
So I wouldn't say that it is fair to say that just because La Mulana doesn't get enough votes, it shouldn't be released on Steam. I'm sure 99% of the Steam crowd doesn't even know it exists because it is buried in a pile of shit and hidden under a rock.
Perhaps I already greenlit all the games I'm interested in? I don't know... I just don't think games that are clearly solid products with critical acclaim like Waking Mars, Wadjet's latest game, and La Mulana shouldn't have to go through this process. It seems like a waste of time.
Since I think one of the developers posts in this very thread, and I think some of the community who want the game read this very thread, do you have any suggestions for both of them as to how they can increase the votes for the game?It should make you lose faith in the community and the developers for completely failing to get an Internet hype train rolling.
They may not be done. This may be due to two things that I think Steam could improve:Have the first ten games even been uploaded on Steam? Kind of amusing that Steam has its own massive backlog.
1. Games that are already finished (La Mulana, Pinball, probably others) don't seem to get any favored position over games that are not finished. So, the very first 10 games through Greenlight may not actually be near release. Each set of Greenlight games may add more to the backlog of not-ready-to-release stuff.
2. As far as I'm aware, developers don't get access to the Steamworks API ahead of time, even if they're in the top 100. That means that they're almost guaranteed to have additional work after their game is approved.
I think the publisher for La Mulana is on this forum, not the developer. In which case, I normally assume the job of the publisher includes doing some marketing at the very least, otherwise why bother with a publisher at all. So far, the marketing effort has amounted to Nil, by my measure. Zero visibility outside of this thread.
The people who are aware of the game are putting it on some kind of pedestal, but are unreasonably expecting that other people should as well, without even being aware of the game.
I don't think Greenlight users are opposed to either platformers (Giana Sisters, Fly'n) or non-mainstream games (McPixel, Octodad). The difference is all of the ones I listed have made some effort in marketing, either through Kickstarter or social media.
The people who are aware of the game are putting it on some kind of pedestal, but are unreasonably expecting that other people should as well, without even being aware of the game.
I don't think Greenlight users are opposed to either platformers (Giana Sisters, Fly'n) or non-mainstream games (McPixel, Octodad). The difference is all of the ones I listed have made some effort in marketing, either through Kickstarter or social media.
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
Get Totalshitbiscuit to do a video on it, Giant bomb to do a quicklook and RPS to take a look. Include links to a demo with each impression.Since I think one of the developers posts in this very thread, and I think some of the community who want the game read this very thread, do you have any suggestions for both of them as to how they can increase the votes for the game?
You know, market yourself to communities that buy indie games?
Why do you describe TotalBiscuit that way? What's wrong with his videos?Get Totalshitbiscuit to do a video on it, Giant bomb to do a quicklook and RPS to take a look. Include links to a demo with each impression.
You know, market yourself to communities that buy indie games?
You mention GiantBomb, and they have done a quick look on La Mulana: http://www.giantbomb.com/quick-look-la-mulana/17-6399/
You mention RPS, and they have an article about it: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/07/16/it-belongs-on-a-pc-la-mulana-remake/
Those articles were presumably before Greenlight, however. So it might require asking GiantBomb and RPS to do articles again now that the game is in Greenlight.
Oh and btw, Akaneiro: Demon Hunters (from American McGee's studio I think?) is sitting at #11 as of this morning:
One example of a developer that is using the Greenlight announcements feature to inform their interested userbase.
Hello all, just a quick update for you-
Beta continues, and we're real busy responding to suggestions and bugs from our dedicated players. We've already revised and added several big features, and we're trying to provide players with a meaty update patch each week. A special thanks to all beta testers who've helped spread the good word here on Steam. It means a lot!
We're resting at #11 in the greenlight top 100 - your continued support see us reach our goal. We'll be extending our closed beta through December, in the lead up to a January release of our first content pack. Sign-up for news at angry-red.com to be included in future beta invite waves. We'll be trying to make it available both via downloadable client, and browser for those inclined either way.
One example of a developer that is using the Greenlight announcements feature to inform their interested userbase.
Those all predate Greenlight, so they probably don't have links to the Greenlight page in them. (Personally I avoid any kind of podcast -- two hours wasted listening to drivel when I can get the same information in print in half a minute)Why do you describe TotalBiscuit that way? What's wrong with his videos?
You mention GiantBomb, and they have done a quick look on La Mulana: http://www.giantbomb.com/quick-look-la-mulana/17-6399/
You mention RPS, and they have an article about it: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/07/16/it-belongs-on-a-pc-la-mulana-remake/
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
And the demo?Why do you describe TotalBiscuit that way? What's wrong with his videos?
You mention GiantBomb, and they have done a quick look on La Mulana: http://www.giantbomb.com/quick-look-la-mulana/17-6399/
You mention RPS, and they have an article about it: http://www.rockpapershotgun.com/2012/07/16/it-belongs-on-a-pc-la-mulana-remake/
Those articles were presumably before Greenlight, however. So it might require asking GiantBomb and RPS to do articles again now that the game is in Greenlight.
You're right. I edited my post to reflect that. Also I don't know if TotalBiscuit has done anything on La Mulana specifically. I don't know Stallion's problem with him either -- did he do something to upset viewers?Those all predate Greenlight, so they probably don't have links to the Greenlight page in them. (Personally I avoid any kind of podcast -- two hours wasted listening to drivel when I can get the same information in print in half a minute)
Also, good suggestion about the new feedback feature for people who are voting. I'm not on the La Mulana list so I don't know if that's already happening.
This is a good suggestion, and hopefully the devs and posters advocating it will take it.And the demo?
Have the first ten games even been uploaded on Steam? Kind of amusing that Steam has its own massive backlog.
But it's not Valve's backlog, it's up to the developers when to actually release their games.
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
Figuring out why someone would think he is a shitbiscuit isn't exactly rocket science. Just watch any video of his that has a blatant agenda.You're right. I edited my post to reflect that. Also I don't know if TotalBiscuit has done anything on La Mulana specifically. I don't know Stallion's problem with him either -- did he do something to upset viewers.
morningbus
Serious Sam is a wicked gahbidge series for chowdaheads.
The problem with TotalBiscuit is that he has too much power. His opinions would be fine if there wasn't a swath of people ready to crucify a game at his command.
Miasmata is indeed janky. I don't suggest getting it unless you're okay with iffy graphics and awkward controls, like in Penumbra or DayZ but perhaps moreso. I wrote some more detailed early impressions in the Steam thread:
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showpost.php?p=44869554&postcount=593
That's exactly what I thought when I saw the game on greenlight and why I downvoted it. It gave me the impression that it could be better a few months after the release and seeing it do so well while other great games where struggling just made me lose faith in the community.
The way Greenlight has been implemented is terrible. Now that it's a popularity contest means that the more games I approve, the less powerful my vote becomes. And why did they think that letting incomplete games or concepts have as much weight as a polished and finished titles was a good idea?
And from the condition that Miasmata and Towns are in, I guess Valve is straight up not even going to bother be involved with the quality process.
They really need to do something like hire a certification team to rummage through the dozen or so top Greenlight games every month, and only let finished products be greenlit. To create a process that is this robotic and hands off is going to be disastrous.
Or just fucking hire a certification team and scrap this experiment.
And from the condition that Miasmata and Towns are in, I guess Valve is straight up not even going to bother be involved with the quality process.
They really need to do something like hire a certification team to rummage through the dozen or so top Greenlight games every month, and only let finished products be greenlit. To create a process that is this robotic and hands off is going to be disastrous.
Or just fucking hire a certification team and scrap this experiment.
Warm Machine
Member
Total Biscuit doesn't take requests. It says so right on his Channel.
Greenlight doesn't at all reflect the Steam community. Most games are lucky to see 15,000 - 20,000 unique visitors to their greenlight page. When there are 5 million concurrent Steam users on at near any time that means that .3% at best have gone to take a look at a game on Greenlight, leaving 99.7% of Steam users not bothering, or being interested in what they will be buying and playing down the line. Somewhere in those 5 million people there has to be a market for a game like La Mulana or pretty much anything else on there.
I firmly believe that Valve went into this with the best intentions possible. The reality of it is that most of the people on Steam simply don't want to do this job. Kudos to the people that have gone and voted.
End of the day, there are way too many games being made in a given month and year for Steam to afford storefront space to. They have purposefully gated the store to focus on what has the highest chance of success vs. visibility. The lesson to learn as a developer is don't count on getting on Steam when you start making a game. Focus on finding a platform with a place where you will be guaranteed a spot to sell onto and make that game a standout on the service.
I don't know.
Greenlight seems more fair than the alternative system.
If people don't care enough to vote your game, well, it doesn't mean that is a bad game, but is not a game people want to buy.
Seems fair to me. Steam is a shop, not a museum of videogames.
Greenlight doesn't at all reflect the Steam community. Most games are lucky to see 15,000 - 20,000 unique visitors to their greenlight page. When there are 5 million concurrent Steam users on at near any time that means that .3% at best have gone to take a look at a game on Greenlight, leaving 99.7% of Steam users not bothering, or being interested in what they will be buying and playing down the line. Somewhere in those 5 million people there has to be a market for a game like La Mulana or pretty much anything else on there.
I firmly believe that Valve went into this with the best intentions possible. The reality of it is that most of the people on Steam simply don't want to do this job. Kudos to the people that have gone and voted.
End of the day, there are way too many games being made in a given month and year for Steam to afford storefront space to. They have purposefully gated the store to focus on what has the highest chance of success vs. visibility. The lesson to learn as a developer is don't count on getting on Steam when you start making a game. Focus on finding a platform with a place where you will be guaranteed a spot to sell onto and make that game a standout on the service.
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
By the time La-Mulana is greenlit, there will be enough bad games already greenlit that people will avoid anything with the Greenlight tag on it. It'll be like Xbox indie games, except with a moronically brutal certification process.
There are bad games released on every relevant platform in every different form each week.
People avoid the online stores that have a high saturation of unprofessional, bad content. Such as XBLIG (or heck, Desura.)There are bad games released on every relevant platform in every different form each week.
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
People avoid the online stores that have a high saturation of unprofessional, bad content. Such as XBLIG (or heck, Desura.)
And the Apple Store too, right?
morningbus
Serious Sam is a wicked gahbidge series for chowdaheads.
People avoid the online stores that have a high saturation of unprofessional, bad content. Such as XBLIG (or heck, Desura.)
A greenlight tag on the storefront is not going to dissuade anyone from judging the game on its own merits.
Well, unless you're the type that boycotts Activision by going the latest COD midnight launch and buying the newest WoW expansion pack.
The Apple Store is an exclusive marketplace on an extremely popular series of devices with many, many great games mixed in with the bad. Someone may get miffed at buying a bad Gameloft title, but they'll keep using it because it has games like Angry Birds. And even then there are various websites that make a living off of finding the cream of the very large crop and many devs rely on those websites for exposure.And the Apple Store too, right?
And if the Apple Store had a very visible and distinctive system of separating games from each other (let's say big studios from the small studios.) And they don't moderate a particular section enough that it's library is mostly known as terrible, then people would avoid anything from that section.
If you know nothing about a particular game other than it has a tag from a certification system that published games that have you have a history of disliking or hearing that they're terrible, you're likely going to have a negative bias towards it.A greenlight tag on the storefront is not going to dissuade anyone from judging the game on its own merits.
this isn't rocket science
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
I still don't understand where that bias has come from. There have been like 5 released so far and if they were shit, then people just want shit games from shit devs. It doesn't say something about Greenlight quite so much as it says something about naivety of people using the internet.
It would be pretty cynical to say that what has come out is the simple result of stupid people with a bad taste in videogames. No, what has come out is the result of the idea that the certification process can be replaced with a large group of people hitting a button after looking at five select snapshots and maybe a youtube video.
Bingo. If there were requirements for quality, or requirements for having a demo, or requirements for having your game ready to be tested before it is greenlit, then there would be more information for people to judge from, plus finished/proven/testable games would have a higher chance of getting through.It would be pretty cynical to say that what has come out is the simple result of stupid people with a bad taste in videogames. No, what has come out is the result of the idea that the certification process can be replaced with a large group of people hitting a button after looking at five select snapshots and maybe a youtube video.
I suppose you can blame people for not downvoting everything that doesn't have a demo? :/
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
When that's all a dev provides them with, what else are they suppose to do?It would be pretty cynical to say that what has come out is the simple result of stupid people with a bad taste in videogames. No, what has come out is the result of the idea that the certification process can be replaced with a large group of people hitting a button after looking at five select snapshots and maybe a youtube video.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
It would be pretty cynical to say that what has come out is the simple result of stupid people with a bad taste in videogames. No, what has come out is the result of the idea that the certification process can be replaced with a large group of people hitting a button after looking at five select snapshots and maybe a youtube video.
And, really, it is up to the team to decide what goes up on display. I've only seen about twenty pages where they actually have gameplay videos.
That's about what people have to work with on Steam if they're trying to buy the game, too. There's no less information on a game's Greenlight page than there is on a game's store page.It would be pretty cynical to say that what has come out is the simple result of stupid people with a bad taste in videogames. No, what has come out is the result of the idea that the certification process can be replaced with a large group of people hitting a button after looking at five select snapshots and maybe a youtube video.
And all Greenlight is doing when you get down to it is saying "would you buy this in the future" instead of "will you buy this now?"
I don't even bother to look at Greenlight anymore. Games like Pinball Arcade shouldn't have to go through the process. It's on 5(if not more) major platforms already and it seems like a slap in the face to Farsight for them to have to go through Greenlight. I'm sure Farsight isn't the only dev in this position.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
I don't even bother to look at Greenlight anymore. Games like Pinball Arcade shouldn't have to go through the process. It's on 5(if not more) major platforms already and it seems like a slap in the face to Farsight for them to have to go through Greenlight. I'm sure Farsight isn't the only dev in this position.
So, you hate Greenlight, but you know it is the only way for these devs to get their games on Steam?
Sometimes you gotta do something you hate in order to get something positive done.
It's not "selling out" to go on Greenlight.
BudokaiMR2
Member
<--- The PLAYISM dude. God it's weird seeing people talk about me on deh gafs
Yeah I am sorry that people seem to think we aren't really putting effort into this. We have done everything in our power possible to promote La-Mulana. I think the fact that we have had a steady position in the Top 50 since Greenlight started is evidence of that.
As people have said there have been GB Quicklooks, reviews, articles on RPS, interviews in various languages, etc.
One of the problems is we had to use a lot of our marketing budget and resources for the actual release of the game which is why a lot of this predates Greenlight. At that point we were still hoping that post release reviews and such would help us go directly through Steam but it didn't work out. It's not very easy to go back to the same media outlets and have them write another article when there really isn't much else to say besides "It's now on Greenlight!"
And I think it is silly to mention Kickstarter because a) we are not even able to use it because we are a Japanese company. and b) what would we even Kickstart? It is a completed game that is ready to go. I guess we could try to Kickstart their new game, but as I said we would have to basically start a new company in the States to do that. Considering that has proven to be one of the very few methods to make a dent in Greenlight it's an unfortunate situation but can't be helped.
And yeah the best thing we can do at this point IMO is ask the popular Let's Play guys to check out the game. And we have done our best but a lot of the more popular ones don't really take kindly to requests and generally choose content on their own. I have gotten through to Totalbiscuit but was just told he would check out the game if he got the chance.
I really wish we had some huge marketing budget to keep us rolling for 4 months constantly but anyone with marketing experience will tell you that just isn't possible or the ideal situation.
Yeah I am sorry that people seem to think we aren't really putting effort into this. We have done everything in our power possible to promote La-Mulana. I think the fact that we have had a steady position in the Top 50 since Greenlight started is evidence of that.
As people have said there have been GB Quicklooks, reviews, articles on RPS, interviews in various languages, etc.
One of the problems is we had to use a lot of our marketing budget and resources for the actual release of the game which is why a lot of this predates Greenlight. At that point we were still hoping that post release reviews and such would help us go directly through Steam but it didn't work out. It's not very easy to go back to the same media outlets and have them write another article when there really isn't much else to say besides "It's now on Greenlight!"
And I think it is silly to mention Kickstarter because a) we are not even able to use it because we are a Japanese company. and b) what would we even Kickstart? It is a completed game that is ready to go. I guess we could try to Kickstart their new game, but as I said we would have to basically start a new company in the States to do that. Considering that has proven to be one of the very few methods to make a dent in Greenlight it's an unfortunate situation but can't be helped.
And yeah the best thing we can do at this point IMO is ask the popular Let's Play guys to check out the game. And we have done our best but a lot of the more popular ones don't really take kindly to requests and generally choose content on their own. I have gotten through to Totalbiscuit but was just told he would check out the game if he got the chance.
I really wish we had some huge marketing budget to keep us rolling for 4 months constantly but anyone with marketing experience will tell you that just isn't possible or the ideal situation.
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
What is preventing you guys from making a demo?
BudokaiMR2
Member
What is preventing you guys from making a demo?
The developers have said they do not want to mostly because the format of the game makes it a bit challenging.
The game isn't built by stages so the only real way to make one would be to put a time limit.
And that is not really the safest way as those kind of time limits can easily be cracked and then the player has the full game.
I have tried to convince them to come up with another solution but they don't seem very open to the suggestion.
Personally I wanted to just upload the original version to our site and use it as a sort of demo. Unfortunately we can't do that either because they are scared of getting more letters from Konami and can't really afford to go in and change every single reference in the game.
edit: Hell I even tried to pitch the idea of giving the demo a time limit AND cutting out the save feature from the demo similar to what the devs who made Project Black Sun did. I don't think there is a soul in the world who could complete the game without saving so I figured it would be pretty safe but they shot that idea down as well....
Stallion Free
Cock Encumbered
Audiosurf's demo had an incredibly simple work around to play it unlimited times and that didn't stop the sales from being insane for an indie. Being hard-headed about this isn't going to sell copies.
I'm glad you are at least making an effort with them.
I'm glad you are at least making an effort with them.
BudokaiMR2
Member
Audiosurf's demo had an incredibly simple work around to play it unlimited times and that didn't stop the sales from being insane for an indie. Being hard-headed about this isn't going to sell copies.
I'm glad you are at least making an effort with them.
Yeah I agree and I think that if in the end we were able to use a demo to push it through greenlight faster it would be worth it since Steam is one of the best ways to combat piracy IMO. A good service will always be better than draconian DRM. I think it would be a worthy sacrifice but the developers don't see it that way. NIGORO are fairly open when it comes to stuff like this but they still are influenced by the standard practices of Japanese game companies.
It took quite a bit of talk just to convince them to go DRM-free.
Except that certifying and buying a game are two different things. Hint: One of them should be a job.That's about what people have to work with on Steam if they're trying to buy the game, too. There's no less information on a game's Greenlight page than there is on a game's store page.
Except that certifying and buying a game are two different things. Hint: One of them should be a job.
It hasn't been too bad so far. Towns is the only Greenlight game that was a bit of a mess at release.
SteveWinwood
Member
I need the list in gaf format plz.
They're not done updating yet. The number is still changing.I need the list in gaf format plz.
Edit: oh screw it, they added the announcement while I was compiling the list:
New Steam Greenlight Games
Blackspace
Darkfall Unholy Wars
Dawn of Fantasy
Dragon's Lair
Euro Truck Simulator 2
Gear Up
Kinetic Void - Space Adventure
The Light
No Time To Explain
Primordia
Sang-Froid : Tales of Werewolves
StarForge
Waking Mars
First Steam Greenlight Software Titles
Action! Screen Recorder
Bandicam: Game Recorder
Construct 2
Display Fusion
HitFilm 2
You Need A Budget 4
SteveWinwood
Member
And still missing some games I would really want.
My vote should count for more since I've bought greenlit and released games through steam already. 2 or 3, which is over 25% of them!
My vote should count for more since I've bought greenlit and released games through steam already. 2 or 3, which is over 25% of them!
Relaxed Muscle
Member
Is pretty sad seeing that most of the games you voted didn't get greenlighted.
Dark matters, Shantae, La-Mulana, etc...
At least Primordia got in.
Dark matters, Shantae, La-Mulana, etc...
At least Primordia got in.
Fare Godmace
Member
Well, I think this is the best batch so far! Different flavors, etc.
Shame about La Mulana, though. At this rate maybe I'll just buy it on WiiWare...
Shame about La Mulana, though. At this rate maybe I'll just buy it on WiiWare...
This is probably the most "....what is that ?" greenlight list for me so far ... very few reignized names.
Insteresting to see Construct 2 in the software !
I hope it has achivements xD
Same for me. It seems we and the greenlight masses do not have similar tastes at all. It makes me sad to see that the list of greenlit games is less diverse than the indie games Valve has chosen to release in the past.