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Stop posting emulator screenshots when discussing graphics of older games

Jaeger

Member
You should always post emulator screenshots. Games should be presented in the best way possible. In 2015 its completly irrelevant how a game looked in the 90s. If I play it today, the emulator represents what I'm going to get.

The only time when you care about original hardware is when having historical arguments.

This.

I'm ok with showing clean, nearest-neighbor integer-scaled screens for 2D games. Filters or increasing the internal rendering resolution for 3D games are a bit trickier. It's totally fine for casual display purposes, but it can warp the perception of those that aren't in the loop easily. Pastrami posted the Super Mario Galaxy thing on Reddit, which is a great example. A completely unrepresentative, emulated and potentially texture-modded version of the game is somehow being presented as evidence for how well a last generation game holds up. That said, we live in an age of bullshots and "photo modes", where this is pretty nebulous in general.


While agree that "meant to be seen" can't apply it to the clean frame data like that, I don't entirely agree with "building assets around CRT displays" narrative. Most of the benefits come from your brain trying to interpret the information as if the CRT effects weren't there in the first place, with mixed results. Bad spriting or tiling practices can more easily covered up though when pixels are broken up, separated, and have scan lines introducing texture where there is none. In that sense it is beneficial as wearing dirty glasses. The amount of visual information is altered and distorted, and has noise.

And this is what I'm saying. You did a much better job at elaborating (I was extremely tired last night).

Pretty sure most of them were made with CRT flaws in mind, and how the game would look on CRT is how it was meant to be seen at the time, especially for an arcade games where the developers know exactly what type of CRT monitor it will be running on.

That is true to a degree, but that is not the rule. And there are numerous games that benefit from true direct screen capture over old hardware limiting distorted imagery. Again, if you are specifically having a discussion with how said software looked 20 years ago, then capturing it's appearance as accurately as possible is a no-brainer. Any other situation is not recommended. Evident by these is the developer has a choice with re-releases and Collections to scale the games however they want. They usually don't choose to purposely have them resemble a game being played on an old 90's hardware setup (not speaking on visually altered releases).
 
Having just gotten into Gamecent CX recently, I have been reminded at just how different games look when when captured from a game system versus direct emulation. That show really hits the nostalgia note just right. The footage in the Ninja Gaiden episode looks just like I remember screenshots looking in old Nintendo Power issues.
It is mostly compression that does that. Emulators play the games uncompressed.
Mostly I see emulator screens as good evidence arguing an "HD release" for a game.

But yeah games did not look like what emulators show you. If buying on PSN or Wii U though, I don't see an issue using an emulation screen to show what it will probably look like. Now direct capture not upscaled is hard to argue since that is how the game console outputs it.
 
No RGB in North America always made me sad. Instead we had S-Video, which is about the closest there was to RGB before component ever became fully standardized.

For me though, I grew up with Atari 2600 games, on one of these:
xxoh8.jpg

Oh shit, norstalgia.
I used that thing to connect my atari 2600 and NES to my old tv.

Then it was RGB for Super NES, europe here.
 

Mihos

Gold Member
We were poor, so if I wanted to show what the game actually looked like to me back in the early 80s, I would need to find a black and white TV and find an RF modulator for everything up to Sega.... and you would need to slap your monitor every 45 seconds to fix the vertical synch.
 

SerTapTap

Member
I can't fucking stand when people post Salx2/Super Eagle/etc filtered pixel art when discussing retro games. What have you done. You monster.
 
So you prefer shittier resolutions when you could look at something more appealing just because.

Alright

How do you guys not get this, seriously? You probably just haven't had to argue with someone who's incredibly boneheaded on the topic. I've seen visual comparison threads ruined by this sort of stuff. uh, literally 90 percent of the time.

It's simple. This is a games forum and sometimes discussion about graphics crops up. People will make claims about a game's visuals and then use literally bullshots to back them up. That is the kind of nonsense practice that is being disputed here, in this context, obviously, and shouldn't continue, also obviously. We can split hairs re: using filters because even a normal screenshot isn't a 1:1 representation of a retro game on a CRT, but an unedited, unfiltered screengrab of the original title is a hell of a lot more accurate than an emulated shot at a much higher resolution and with texture filtering.
 

SparkTR

Member
Honestly I forgot how bad older 3D console games look on HDTVs. They have non-existent IQ, framerate and latency issues and are blurry to the point where it negatively affects the gameplay (try playing Rogue Leader when the TIE Fighters are too blurry to see among the dark skyboxes). I spent a bunch on OG Xbox titles but I'm finding hard to get through them because of that. If it were possible I'd emulate them in a minute.
 

petran79

Banned
video game magazines cheated too!

Using professional photo equipment, expensive desktop publishing software, computers, drum scanners and printers made quite a difference in picture when compared to your blurry tv

Computer game magazines were closer to the real picture due to better quality of svga monitors
 

Wereroku

Member
video game magazines cheated too!

Using professional photo equipment, expensive desktop publishing software, computers, drum scanners and printers made quite a difference in picture when compared to your blurry tv

Computer game magazines were closer to the real picture due to better quality of svga monitors

I think the point is more that games like Xenoblade could never look like what some of the screenshots do on original hardware.
 

Junahu

Member
try playing Rogue Leader when the TIE Fighters are too blurry to see among the dark skyboxes
Rogue Leader has always been like that, and many missions are deliberately meant to exacerbate that problem. You're expected to use the targetting computer until you get a "feel" for where ships will go.

That doesn't excuse the game, of course, but poor visibility was always a part of the game's design (edit: even though HDTVs do make the problem worse)
 
OP, mind giving me the link to the database that contains screenshots in their original resolution for all games on every system I've played?

I get the point you're trying to make, it's just not gonna happen.
 

Jaeger

Member
I really don't think anyone is arguing that using enhanced emulated game imagery in discussions/arguments that specifically deal with visuals as they originally appeared at release is good. But there is like 3 different discussions occuring ITT at the moment.
 

Lord Error

Insane For Sony
Can someone please post the DKC Cartoon Shader screens/links? I want to see that far more than realistic screens of old games.
 

Peltz

Member
I'm not sure how we can achieve what the OP seems to want. The only proper way to truly see the games as they were intended is to view them on a real CRT. Anything else is inaccurate to varying degrees.

I think this works well enough, though, and comes close to capturing the look of a real system without emulation.

zdnb.png

That was from someone who tried to set their XRGB Mini to look exactly like a pic I posted when photographing my CRT.

Unfortunately, they did too good of a job. The two pics look almost identical which is still wrong because my picture was taken with a crappy iphone camera and appears washed out in comparison to how it looks in person on my CRT.

This was my original photo:

10934100_10100969569536780_8899135478039326019_o.jpg


It looks very washed out in my photo in comparison to how it looks in person. Of course, whoever took the screenshot isn't to blame... my camera is the one at fault.
 

ElFly

Member
Still shouldn't use emulators. The art doesn't come through the same. Especially when it was crafted around the known limitations at the time.

It comes out better and unmuddled, and you can see the beautiful dithering patterns the designers created, and it comes out exactly the same on all displays -assuming no filters other than integer scaling-.

For every fake transparency effect the old developers tried to coax the CRTs into doing, the rest of the pixels look blurry for no good reason. Besides, for the whole "the artists crafted the graphics around the limitations at the time" lie to work, you can only speak of some arcades where the artist knew the exact model of the monitor to be used; everyone else would be playing in vastly different tvs from each other, which may have had scanlines of different visibility, and more or less precise or dirty connections to the console, color bleeding, pixel size, etc. So in fact the artists didn't really know what their art would look like and hoped for the best, that best being, that oh god please make the scourge of scanlines disappear from this planet.

And that time came, and when we booted old games in emulators running on scanline-less monitors, it was like a veil was lifted from our eyes, and we could see what the artists had really painted, not what we could glimpse between the venetian blinds of old CRT tech.
 
A CRT filter would be impressive, and also something that would emulate TV sound. How I remember certain sound effects from games like Star Fox sound so... bad compared to what I heard from a TV set.
 

lazygecko

Member
PS1 emulator shots are the only ones that really bug me to such an extent. But it's mostly just a question of resolution rather than purity of output signal.
 

Yarbskoo

Member
Unless the thread is specifically talking about how games looked back in the 90s or whenever, what difference does it make?
 
I just remember I had Zelda 2 and took some pics for science!

It's closer to the right image!!!!

c28.gif


Unless the thread is specifically talking about how games looked back in the 90s or whenever, what difference does it make?

If the thread is about graphics and you post a picture of Vagrant Story running at 4K and saying that "Vagrant Story on PS1 looked amazing" well then you are an awful person and you should feel awful
 

It's true. For example if you play Chrono Trigger on a misconfigurated emulator, the moon doesn't look round:

fbcSE5z.png


The sad thing is ports of SNES games on the GBA and the DS also have the wrong aspect ratio. The moon is still egg-shaped in Chrono Trigger DS.
 

Mael

Member
You should always post emulator screenshots. Games should be presented in the best way possible. In 2015 its completly irrelevant how a game looked in the 90s. If I play it today, the emulator represents what I'm going to get.

The only time when you care about original hardware is when having historical arguments.

What?
No, because you settle for emu doesn't mean the rest of us do.
 

Jaeger

Member
If the thread is about graphics and you post a picture of Vagrant Story running at 4K and saying that "Vagrant Story on PS1 looked amazing" well then you are an awful person and you should feel awful

There's really not much you can do other than correct them in that moment as to why the post is inaccurate. You can't perform preventive measures on every possible scenario something like that surfaces.
 
So OP, you want the bottom image, not the top, right?
OHG4gUa.png


I think for the purpose of discussion, absolutely. For the purpose of playing, I'd rather have the antialiasing.
 
The narrative trying to be pushed here is weird. Games looked just as great from the ol' Tele as they do through an emulator (without filters and anything that modifies the game's visuals, and that includes filters that try to replicate the CRT look).

Oh man, the memories...
 
The weirdest part is that we are never going to be able to emulate the look and feel of how the graphics came across on CRTs unless you are looking at the native image on a CRT. The accurate representation of the original pixel art displayed on an LCD display would require taking an offscreen photo of the actual native image running on a CRT, namely a 480i scanline tv screen.
 
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