Let's go Helen/Kolin!
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Street Fighter V |OTVII| New Generation - Connection To Haters Was Lost
- Thread starter Reizo Ryuu
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Zombegoast
Member
It's opposite for me. While I can play shotos and a few other characters, they do not come close to my performance with Nash. I have a Cammy but still.
sixteen-bit
Member
You can't be left behind if you were never a hater.
Omnistalgic
Member
Good post, I think we just disagree on the balance a bit. I'm still looking for Capcom to match VF, and I sincerely believe this is the engine. There will be natural bad match-ups based off play styles, but with the V-trigger, I thought it was an ingenious way to make up for all characters deficiencies, with the Super being a naturally equalizer across the board. I'm just tired of characters being 'viable', everyone should be Guile tier. Despite Urien, Laura, Ken, Necalli, Cammy, Mika, Balrog, and Ibuki all being viable, Urien & Rog for example is still better than them, because they are more well-rounded characters. It just doesn't seem like Capcom stayed true to certain characters. Like the DP nerf is fine, but why is Ken/Ryu's normals (particularly ken) so stubby and stuff that used to be his bnb (c.mp -> b.mp or Target combo 2) whiff all the time now? Nerfing DP hurt his defense, nerfing his Air game hurt his offense, and they made him very one dimensional. As ken what you do now is get an opponent to the corner and kill them. To me, that's not what shoto play is. Shotos are balanced offensive/defensive characters. They have to be strong, because they have the most recognizable play style in the game. Ryu being the most balanced, while Ken has a slight nod to offense. Akuma a high-powered version of each. Ken is border line pure RTSD now, and that's just ugh to me..Cammy's buttons are superior and her play style more braindead kinda now, but you know what? That fits Cammy! Necalli too feels like the perfect version of the character. It just doesn't seem like each character gets the same amount of attention and detail. Some changes are just too weird. And 50/50 across the board didn't increase, but the top tiers of the game have a bunch of 50/50's, so it's going to dominate the scene more as people gravitate towards stronger players.
Like I said, we mostly agree, I just don't see it as balanced as you and some others do. And really, it's not coming from my Ken bias, my friend already analyzed me in a set and encourage me to play Karin/Cammy and said I would probably do very well with them as I have a natural oki-based game while Ken is transitioning to a hit-confirm counter/poke character. I honestly don't care about my personal favorite character, just looking at high level matches I'm not feeling it as much as S1. There's too many characters like S1 Mika now, that's just corny to me. And not just the obvious ones like Urien or Laura. Balrog has like 4 high/low setups. Ken gets you in the corner with a stupid throw loop. After you successfully block Cammy's dive kick (which is hard in itself) you have to guess throw/low/high or panic DP! I've never wanted to play like that, I still wish Ken's step kick was like the old one and I could poke/zone with normals and then have a decent Oki game, not this RTSD version we have now. Too many characters feel like that's their goal, to rush rush rush. I'm not a fan.
I thought he was talking about stuff like Birdie's new oki, or Vega's 50/50 clawless situation after he rolls, making for an increase in 50/50 situations in S2.
Nemesis121
Member
Starting to think Japan has better matching making....
Alex my main so i like to watch other Alex players better than me, see their struggles with certain match ups and realize i have the same struggles, and learn a few things from them.
I watching Gunfight and SpawnofOdd..
SpawnofOdd on the West coast and like me he gets a lot of laggy players and Canadian's..
Gunfight in Japan, gets a lot of smooth battles and 90% of them are Japanese players he rarely gets players outside Japan..
Just small sampling but surely looks like Capcom made sure they took care of Japan... lol
Alex my main so i like to watch other Alex players better than me, see their struggles with certain match ups and realize i have the same struggles, and learn a few things from them.
I watching Gunfight and SpawnofOdd..
SpawnofOdd on the West coast and like me he gets a lot of laggy players and Canadian's..
Gunfight in Japan, gets a lot of smooth battles and 90% of them are Japanese players he rarely gets players outside Japan..
Just small sampling but surely looks like Capcom made sure they took care of Japan... lol
CountBlack
Member
The issue with bringing every character up to Guile tier is that'd you'd have to change their kit of specials/normals to be that way. S2 Guile and S1 Chun are examples of characters that don't really have any weaknesses imo and you wouldn't be able to implement that into a character like Laura or Mika or at least you wouldn't want to do that. I don't think that Balrog is a perfectly well-rounded character, his weaknesses show right when he gets matched up against a grappler then his strengths show right when he gets matched up against a fireball character. While Cammy/Necalli/Urien can play well against both sides.
SFV from the start has been about changing how characters played naturally. From Vega/Bison/Chun having more motion attacks from before, Ibuki being completely foreign to her SF3/4 iteration, Juri being nothing like she was before, Gief missing specials etc overall this game always had a very minimalistic and I've never liked it from the start. Taking away specials/proximity normals has made the game a bit dull from the start and has made the ceiling for some characters very low imo. They didn't just nerf Ken's defensive/offensive tools, it was done across the board. Cammy's DP was taken away and her dive kick isn't as positive on block so it isn't her turn afterwards. Ryu lost his DP and he can't just j.LKx40 times over and over and stuff out every AA coming his way, Chun's air legs are -2 on block now so if she doesn't hit, it isn't her turn afterwards. The air game was overall nerfed in S2 because it was too strong/stupid in S1. Ex bars were basically free jump in cards which I don't necessarily agree with. Ken's lk air tatsu not having a hurtbox didn't make sense either. Now it's if you hit with ex tatsu in the air, you get the follow up and oki. Now if it's blocked, you don't get to continue your turn then push them out a bit then do it again lol. Especially with air attacks that the risk/reward of trying to AA are never in the opponents favour. This game has always been very one dimensional and I've never liked it but it is what it is. They limited characters from the start (except for Chun) and it's made the game very bland. Capcom didn't like how players were using Nash because it wasn't what they envisioned so they nerfed those tools so Nash will fit the mold they want. Ken's toolset in 5 was made for pushing the opponent into the corner and not letting them escape. He was made for RTSD in SFV. I also hate what they've done with Ken's normals and Akuma's. Cr.MK used to be the gawd now they're so struggle. I hate the direction they took with the shoto cr.MK's from SF3/2/4.
I'd actually say Cammy is less braindead now that she has to block and that her ex divekick isn't a free jump in anymore. Her pressure is just as scary as it was in S1 but knowing that it's your turn (in certain occasions) after ex divekick on block is a bit reassuring at least.
Necalli is perfection through & through and I don't know why everyone doesn't play him lol.
Laura replacing Mika in the top tier 50/50 department and Urien being top tier don't really warrant saying that all the top tiers are all about 50/50's now lol. In regards to Balrog's V-Trigger sequence, I think the issue with blocking it is the input lag instead of how difficult it really is. If the input lag was lowered I don't think as many people would be getting hit by it & you know that one option resets the situation, another is unsafe on block then the other is going low.
The name of the game has been RTSD from S1. The only character I'd give you that's like S1 Mika is Laura lol, nobody else is touching S1 Mika, that's just hyperbole. I also agree that if you want a hit-confirming/poke character, then maybe you're playing the wrong character. Ken can play like that but yea it isn't as strong as Cammy/Karin. I've kinda answered the rest above but I'll say it again, Cammy's divekick overall has been nerfed in this version so you aren' really guessing throw/low/ high(?) or DP anymore.
The type of game it seems like you'd enjoy more is a little underrated beautiful game called SF4 (available on PS4 as well) where you can react to things, play a solid neutral game with a solid array of buttons to choose from (from far and close range), some good oki, invincible (panic) DP's that can even be made safe if you guess wrong. You have actual defensive options so it's not all 50/50 over and over. sounds like you'd enjoy it tbh
I'm not sure what Birdie's new oki is and Vega's situation is more of a nuisance than actually being scary since his damage output is kinda poor.
I think it was to make the pushback on wakeup CH buttons less or something for the opposing character or something idk
Birdie's new oki makes for an increase in 50/50 situations, like being able to dash > command grab after landing EX chain, or better options after landing a command grab (like using the heavy chain to beat any kind of jump they would make on wake-up).
Vega's thing might be poor, but it still does put you in a 50/50 situation, where if you guess wrong you're stuck in the blender. Though I don't actually know what his frame advantage is after he lands a command grab.
There's also the Necalli thing, where he's apparently now in a position to command grab you after landing a light stomp. Then there's Laura. I think there have been more situations like that in general.
Omnistalgic
Member
Nah, I hate SF4. FADC was the worse thing ever, I abused it, and thought it was stupid lol. El Fuete and C. Viper alone are enough for me never to go back to SF4. I like the core of SFV, just don't like the direction they are going. If it continues down this path though, yeah, I probably won't like the game overall anymore. 50/50 increase is not hyperbole mate, you aren't playing all the characters in your pool or something.
I think you may be underestimating Cammy's DP too, I don't think it get stuffed as easily if at all like Ken's does. And spacing dependent, I'm not sure it's always your turn. Haven't played in a while though so maybe off base.
I think you may be underestimating Cammy's DP too, I don't think it get stuffed as easily if at all like Ken's does. And spacing dependent, I'm not sure it's always your turn. Haven't played in a while though so maybe off base.
Omnistalgic
Member
Yeah, I think Ibuki might have some, and Gief is like a walking 50/50 lol...He kinda has to be though.
klabautermann
Member
Honestly, I would prefer Petshop over Helen/Kolin lmao
lucebuce12
Member
lucebuce12
Member
When FANG and Alex are nerfed to the point that they vanish from character select after 5 seconds.
CountBlack
Member
How + is Birdie after ex chain - dash forward? And I was gonna ask what Vega's frame advantage was after command throw to see if it's a real mixup or just fake.
I call it hyperbole because most of it already existed in S1 but those characters got shut down hardbody by the top tiers so you wouldn't see them shine.
Cammy's DP invincibility starts at 3f just like Ken's, Ryu's and Necalli's. If she hits you really low with the ex dive kick she might still be 0 or + but if it's done any higher it isn't her turn to press buttons. And she can't steal that turn back by just DP'ing on block since she's slightly negative like players would before.
SF4 was far from perfect but its way better than S1 & S2 of SFV lol
After they give her an overhead command throw that's also a fireball.
lucebuce12
Member
Vega is definitely + after the regular command throw, but he's definitely - if he dashes forward, so the dash forward into command x repeat until dead is not real.
EX command grab is a different story, it's definitely + even after a dash.
CountBlack
Member
yes but I want numbers b
The DP change just rewards recklessness on the ground kind of like how weak AAs and AA damage rewarded reckless jump ins. Knowing that I can stuff DPs on their startup just let's me autopilot and run the same rote offense longer than before on more of the cast than before. I mean, DPs already had a huge penalty for missing them with CC system letting me hurt them bad and get V-meter off it. Nothing makes a game boring faster than being able to fight a bunch of matchups the same way.
Then the next thing people are complaining about are the characters with good normals in neutral when they already feel slow and look shorter than their visuals.
Then the next thing people are complaining about are the characters with good normals in neutral when they already feel slow and look shorter than their visuals.
+12 as an EX wall dive ender, +14 on the grounded version. While he can frame kill 10f with clawless st.lp and 12f with both cr.lp, the distance typically doesn't work for a frame perfect 50/50 after it.
Edit: Forgot to include EX command grab, which is +19. This one seems like it gets the 50/50s, but I don't think it's new to S2.
Edit: Forgot to include EX command grab, which is +19. This one seems like it gets the 50/50s, but I don't think it's new to S2.
CountBlack
Member
Capcom's direction for AA's are really weird. 3f st.LP AA's having a hitbox of an umbrella while slower go-to AA's are a lot worse to use in most situations. Doesn't really make any sense tbh
SolarPowered
Member
Ken, Ryu, Cammy and Necalli were the only characters in season 1 who didn't have to sacrifice meter in season 1 to stop that "rote offense". If 12 other characters out of 16 could truly go HAM then it must have been tough for players of those four characters that made up 4 of most player's top 5 in S1 of SFV. Now it just so happens that those four (out of a cast currently numbering at 23) have joined everyone else in that respect (except Cammy and Akuma who have meterless DPs in v-trigger iirc). If not having meterless reversals really made the balance between defense and offense so lopsided then the game must have been pretty bad from the start. Unfortunately I never really picked up on that sentiment. No matter where I looked even the haters had respect for SFV's gameplay and touted it as the only reason to keep playing the early access package Capcom tried to pass off as a fully featured $60 retail release.
It's about the infastructure and nature of the country, Japan is densely populated and their infastructure is better than NA where everything is spread far from each other.
CountBlack
Member
SolarPowered
Member
I thought Fang would be a good candidate for a metered DP alongside Nash and Alex until Direct Quote reminded me of his V-reversal. Some characters do just fine without one or have the potential do just fine with further tweaking. Gief, Fang and Sim are sitting pretty even without one. Vega could certainly be made good enough to not require one.
stn
Member
What I'd like for the next balance patch. Am I being unreasonable?
Ryu - revert st. lk, revert fireball to S1.
Akuma - LP fireball goes full screen, does not knock down. Other versions stay same.
Alex - LK elbow back to -4, LP chop to -3 on block
Guile - no changes
Urien - no changes
Laura - no changes
Necalli - no changes
Ryu - revert st. lk, revert fireball to S1.
Akuma - LP fireball goes full screen, does not knock down. Other versions stay same.
Alex - LK elbow back to -4, LP chop to -3 on block
Guile - no changes
Urien - no changes
Laura - no changes
Necalli - no changes
chun st.LK can't stop the meteor in ffvii from crashing into the planet anymore
Lol. Never got that far in ff7 , dunno what you're talking about
but for real chuns aa game got nerfed hard. Meanwhile necalli is untouched
CountBlack
Member
wyd?? its on psn go finish it now b
Vega would need real damage, good frame traps and a V-reversal that is useful for me to think he doesn't need a dp.
Does Necalli have a costume that isn't ugly because I wouldn't mind playing that character for a little bit?
CountBlack
Member
understood.
stn
Member
I'm guessing you missed the window to purchase his CPT skin? Its easily one of the best alts in the game.
tbh akuma has nothing that warrants his 875hp
his damage isnt that crazy (compare to balrog... )
His buttons arent very good
his demon flip is slow
either buff his hp or make his normals slightly more + on block and increase his damage
also make his double st.hk ALWAYS move you close enough for a st.mk on hit...
his damage isnt that crazy (compare to balrog... )
His buttons arent very good
his demon flip is slow
either buff his hp or make his normals slightly more + on block and increase his damage
also make his double st.hk ALWAYS move you close enough for a st.mk on hit...
Omnistalgic
Member
Well, I'm seeing it more and more in this discussion, this is the fundamental difference in my thinking and others I guess, "just fine" and "viable" is boring.
Most of the cast right now is "viable". You buff everyone and it won't break the game man, even if it does, it's super fun if everyone is really strong. That's why SF2 lasted so long.
Think of balance like a horizontal bar of offense, defense, neutral. Characters like Chun or Guile are balanced across the bar. When you buff characters to get to that bar, they might become too good, but how much better is key? Laura with no weakness might seem like a nightmare on paper, but she was scary as hell before, they just made her mix-up easier to get started in S2. 50/50 is so scary right? but with a DP/Get off me move? That 50/50 is both ways now. I can go down that rabbit hole forever, but I'll just stop there.
The point, to buffing first is the same principle when you're buying a jump rope, you always get a rope that's too long, so you can adjust it. Once it's too short, its useless. Early in SFV life, Capcom should be buffing, buffing, buffing, because you can always cut down instead of going up. Even with Vanilla Sagat in SF4, there was a little fun to be had with an OP character for a while, everyone knew he would eventually get nerfed, it's just necessary in the beginning.
Most of the cast right now is "viable". You buff everyone and it won't break the game man, even if it does, it's super fun if everyone is really strong. That's why SF2 lasted so long.
Think of balance like a horizontal bar of offense, defense, neutral. Characters like Chun or Guile are balanced across the bar. When you buff characters to get to that bar, they might become too good, but how much better is key? Laura with no weakness might seem like a nightmare on paper, but she was scary as hell before, they just made her mix-up easier to get started in S2. 50/50 is so scary right? but with a DP/Get off me move? That 50/50 is both ways now. I can go down that rabbit hole forever, but I'll just stop there.
The point, to buffing first is the same principle when you're buying a jump rope, you always get a rope that's too long, so you can adjust it. Once it's too short, its useless. Early in SFV life, Capcom should be buffing, buffing, buffing, because you can always cut down instead of going up. Even with Vanilla Sagat in SF4, there was a little fun to be had with an OP character for a while, everyone knew he would eventually get nerfed, it's just necessary in the beginning.
SolarPowered
Member
Unreasonable conservative
Urien's cr.mk is going to get touched and Capcom might even have to consider f.mp mixups off successful EX headbutts because damn. Laura gonna get touched and Necalli should see some touches as well (starting with his AA jab goddamn capcom). The top tier deserve nothing more than shaves and the bottom five+Ryu could use some not-insignificant buffing.
All of those should be pretty doable, but iirc his v-reversal could be useful in some situations. I don't know how much worse they made it in S2 if they touched it at all. On the other hand reversing all the nerfs on Nash and Alex would make them mid tier which is sorta fun, I guess. New stuff alongside reversal of some nerfs would be nicer.
Here's a rough approx. how I viewed it when I came into a matchup
Grappler
Keepaway
Invincible meterless specials
None of the above
You needed to approach the match up of a character with a invincible reversal differently. It was always an option where you had to aware they could use it. It's the same when you fight a character that has a 3f normal, you know there's something you can't get away with as much.
"But EX moves are still there and more characters had EX moves for invincible reversal, how is it different?"
Cost! EX move, you're spending meter and risking life and I can see when you have EX meter to use it. I just need to type you as a player who likes to use EX meter to start/steal offense (EX fireball) or do extra damage (ending in EX moves or Super) to figure when you might EX reversal.
When you only risk life and I have no other tell you could do something invincible, I have to be wary of it the entire match.
We had invincible meterless moves in fighting games for about 30 years. Capcom fucked up other aspects of the characters that had them not the meterless invincible specials themselves. This change is coddling the shitty players who want to mash buttons.
It's either all characters get them or no, as a rashid player it was a nightmare for me paying against those guys who have invincible reversals such as Ken and Ryu.
lucebuce12
Member
It's fine if you don't give certain characters any real reversal option, as long as their other capabilities are buffed to compare.
- Vega's V-reversal should be better, and his CA should at least be a wakeup option.
- Birdie doesn't need it but swap the armor frames for EX Bullhead (in V-Trigger) and EX Bullhorn.
- FANG's wakeup is fine to me, but his DAMAGE NEEDS A BUFF. Either buff the poison or buff the normals or buff his overall mobility but buff SOMETHING.
- Balrog's EX screw upper should have frame 1 armor. Nerf his damage though.
- Urien's fine, it's just his incredible normals that makes me want to jump off a bridge.
- Rashid IMO is one of the more balanced members of the cast right now.
- Alex's EX charged slash should have frame 1 armor. But that should be the extent of his wakeup options. Make his neutral and offense better damn it
- Dhalsim doesn't need any changes to his wakeup IMO. Maybe make the CA not as easy to low profile or something?
- Laura doesn't need one.
- Gief's offensive capabilities are good enough that his defense should be a bit lacking IMO. His V-skill provides a good way to turn the tides if you guess correctly.
- R. Mika's problem has never been about her wakeup options and that still hasn't changed now.
klabautermann
Member
Hard to say when we don't really know much about her, but her personality/character design just does nothing for me.
will today be the day ?
Considering the Capcom Unity blog posts usually go up around now, pretty sure it's safe to say it ain't happening today.
TheSpoiler
Member
CountBlack
Member
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