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Taibbi: Wall Street is Looting America's Pension Funds

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Piecake

Member
n the final months of 2011, almost two years before the city of Detroit would shock America by declaring bankruptcy in the face of what it claimed were insurmountable pension costs, the state of Rhode Island took bold action to avert what it called its own looming pension crisis. Led by its newly elected treasurer, Gina Raimondo – an ostentatiously ambitious 42-year-old Rhodes scholar and former venture capitalist – the state declared war on public pensions, ramming through an ingenious new law slashing benefits of state employees with a speed and ferocity seldom before seen by any local government.

Soon she was being talked about as a probable candidate for Rhode Island's 2014 gubernatorial race. By 2013, Raimondo had raised more than $2 million, a staggering sum for a still-undeclared candidate in a thimble-size state.

Nor did anyone know that part of Raimondo's strategy for saving money involved handing more than $1 billion – 14 percent of the state fund – to hedge funds, including a trio of well-known New York-based funds: Dan Loeb's Third Point Capital was given $66 million, Ken Garschina's Mason Capital got $64 million and $70 million went to Paul Singer's Elliott Management. The funds now stood collectively to be paid tens of millions in fees every single year by the already overburdened taxpayers of her ostensibly flat-broke state. Felicitously, Loeb, Garschina and Singer serve on the board of the Manhattan Institute, a prominent conservative think tank with a history of supporting benefit-slashing reforms. The institute named Raimondo its 2011 "Urban Innovator" of the year.

The state's workers, in other words, were being forced to subsidize their own political disenfranchisement, coughing up at least $200 million to members of a group that had supported anti-labor laws. Later, when Edward Siedle, a former SEC lawyer, asked Raimondo in a column for Forbes.com how much the state was paying in fees to these hedge funds, she first claimed she didn't know. Raimondo later told the Providence Journal she was contractually obliged to defer to hedge funds on the release of "proprietary" information, which immediately prompted a letter in protest from a series of freaked-out interest groups. Under pressure, the state later released some fee information, but the information was originally kept hidden, even from the workers themselves.

But for all of this, state pension funds were more or less in decent shape prior to the financial crisis of 2008. The country, after all, had been in a historic bull market for most of the 1990s and 2000s and politicians who underpaid the ARCs during that time often did so assuming that the good times would never end. In fact, prior to the crash, state pension funds nationwide were cumulatively running a surplus. But then the crash came, and suddenly states everywhere were in a real, no-joke fiscal crisis. Tax revenues went in the crapper, and someone had to take the hit. But who? Cuts to corporate welfare and a rolled-up-newspaper whack of new taxes on the guilty finance sector seemed a good place to start, but it didn't work out that way. Instead, it was then that the legend of pension unsustainability was born, with the help of a pair of unlikely allies.

In 2011, Pew began to align itself with a figure who was decidedly neither centrist nor nonpartisan: 39-year-old John Arnold, whom CNN/Money described (erroneously) as the "second-youngest self-made billionaire in America," after Mark Zuckerberg. Though similar in wealth and youth, Arnold presented the stylistic opposite of Zuckerberg's signature nerd chic: He's a lipless, eager little jerk with the jug-eared face of a Division III women's basketball coach, exactly what you'd expect a former Enron commodities trader to look like. Anyone who has seen the Oscar-winning documentary The Smartest Guys in the Room and remembers those tapes of Enron traders cackling about rigging energy prices on "Grandma Millie" and jamming electricity rates "right up her ass for fucking $250 a megawatt hour" will have a sense of exactly what Arnold's work environment was like.

What the study didn't say was that this supposedly massive gap could all be chalked up to the financial crisis, which, of course, had been caused almost entirely by the greed and wide-scale fraud of the financial-services industry – particularly with regard to state pension funds.

A study by noted economist Dean Baker at the Center for Economic Policy and Research bore this out. In February 2011, Baker reported that, had public pension funds not been invested in the stock market and exposed to mortgage-backed securities, there would be no shortfall at all. He said state pension managers were of course somewhat to blame, but only "insofar as they exercised poor judgment in buying the [finance] industry's services."

So even if Pew's numbers were right, the "unfunded liability" crisis had nothing to do with the systemic unsustainability of public pensions. Thanks to a deadly combination of unscrupulous states illegally borrowing from their pensioners, and unscrupulous banks whose mass sales of fraudulent toxic subprime products crashed the market, these funds were out some $930 billion. Yet the public was being told that the problem was state workers' benefits were simply too expensive.

In fact, in recent years more than a dozen states have carved out exemptions for hedge funds to traditional Freedom of Information Act requests, making it impossible in some cases, if not illegal, for workers to find out where their own money has been invested.

The way this works, typically, is simple: A hedge fund will refuse to take a state's business unless it first provides legal guarantees that information about its investments won't be disclosed to the public. The ostensible justifications for these outrageous laws are usually that disclosing commercial information about hedge funds would place them at a "competitive disadvantage."

Hedge funds have good reason to want to keep their fees hidden: They're insanely expensive. The typical fee structure for private hedge-fund management is a formula called "two and twenty," meaning the hedge fund collects a two percent fee just for showing up, then gets 20 percent of any profits it earns with your money. Some hedge funds also charge a mysterious third fee, called "fund expenses," that can run as high as half a percent – Loeb's Third Point, for instance, charged Rhode Island just more than half a percent for "fund expenses" last year, or about $350,000. Hedge funds will also pass on their trading costs to their clients, a huge additional line item that can come to an extra percent or more and is seldom disclosed. There are even fees states pay for withdrawing from certain hedge funds

And underperforming is likely. Even though hedge funds can and sometimes do post incredible numbers in the short-term – Loeb's Third Point notched a 41 percent gain for Rhode Island in 2010; the following year, it earned -0.54 percent. On Wall Street, people are beginning to clue in to the fact – spikes notwithstanding – that over time, hedge funds basically suck. In 2008, Warren Buffett famously placed a million-dollar bet with the heads of a New York hedge fund called Protégé Partners that the S&P 500 index fund – a neutral bet on the entire stock market, in other words – would outperform a portfolio of five hedge funds hand-picked by the geniuses at Protégé.

So at the low end, Atwood is paying 200 times less than the standard two percent hedge-fund fee. As an example, Atwood says, the state of Illinois paid a fee of just $57,000 last year on $550 million of public money they put into an S&P 500 index fund, which, again, is exactly the sort of plain-vanilla investment that Warren Buffett used to publicly kick the ass of Wall Street's cockiest hedge fund.

So when you invest your pension money in hedge funds, you might be paying a hundred times the cost or more, you might be underperforming the market, you may be supporting political movements against you, and you often have to pay what effectively is a bribe just for the privilege of hiring your crappy overpaid money manager in the first place. What's not to like about that? Who could complain?

Now, though, states all over the country are claiming they not only need to abrogate legally binding contracts with state workers but also should seize retirement money from widows to finance years of illegal loans, giant fees to billionaires like Dan Loeb and billions in tax breaks to the Curt Schillings of the world. It ain't right. If someone has to tighten a belt or two, let's start there. If we've still got a problem after squaring those assholes away, that's something that can be discussed. But asking cops, firefighters and teachers to take the first hit for a crisis caused by reckless pols and thieves on Wall Street is low, even by American standards.

http://www.rollingstone.com/politics/news/looting-the-pension-funds-20130926?print=true

Its a long article, but well worth the read. I don't really understand how these traders/investors can rationalize their behavior. I mean, hell, they are just fucking parasites.




Here is a review of a scholarly article on the subject of investment consultant funds versus index (or average). Hint, the investment consultants dont come out ahead.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=685617&highlight=
 

Enron

Banned
Yet another reason why Pensions fucking suck.


Hedge Funds don't belong as part of any retirement package, especially one that is not directly managed by the participant.
 

Piecake

Member
Yet another reason why Pensions fucking suck.


Hedge Funds don't belong as part of any retirement package, especially one that is not directly managed by the participant.

I think you misunderstood the article. Pensions don't suck, the people who invest for the pension funds suck. Thats a very important difference.

Either out of ignorance or greed, they are picking shitty funds or parastic hedge funds to invest their money, all of which enriches wall street at the expense of the actual person who worked for that money. If they simply invested in Index funds pensions would be doing great
 

Enron

Banned
I think you misunderstood the article. Pensions don't suck, the people who invest for the pension funds suck. Thats a very important difference.

Either out of ignorance or greed, they are picking shitty funds or parastic hedge funds to invest their money, all of which enriches wall street at the expense of the actual person who worked for that money. If they simply invested in Index funds pensions would be doing great

That is my whole point. This is why Pensions suck - you don't have control of YOUR money. You have to trust that your management makes the right decision for you (lol).
 
Here is a review of a scholarly article on the subject of investment consultant funds versus index (or average). Hint, the investment consultants dont come out ahead.

http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=685617&highlight=

These aren't usually meant to be compared on equal terms. Consultant funds are a lot of times used to even out payments not generate the highest return, otherwise everything would be growth funds. Trying to compare the two as equals is beyond stupid.
 

Piecake

Member
That is my whole point. This is why Pensions suck - you don't have control of YOUR money. You have to trust that your management makes the right decision for you (lol).

The problem is individuals do a horrific job of investing for their own for retirement.

According to the Center for Retirement Research at Boston College, the median household retirement account balance in 2010 for workers between the ages of 55-64 was just $120,000. For people expecting to retire at around age 65, and to live for another 15 years or more, this will provide for only a trivial supplement to Social Security benefits.

And that's for people who actually have a retirement account of some kind. A third of households do not. For these people, their sole retirement income, aside from potential aid from friends and family, comes from Social Security, for which the current average monthly benefit is $1,230.

http://www.usatoday.com/story/opini...-security-retirement-benefits-column/1891155/

Truly frightening shit. The majority of the elderly will be eating dog food soon.

As for how to solve the issue of shitty funds in Pension funds, well, simply pass a law requiring govt pension managers to ONLY invest in index funds. Hell, we could get damn specific if you want, but that should be good enough.
 
Also, the data in the article is old. After '08 pretty much no hedge funds charge 2 and 20 anymore. Some of the absolute top of the top still do but vast majority charge about 1.5% and 17% or so of profits with some being even longer if you invest enough/have been there for a while.

Also, it's not like these fees were ever hidden or not know about, people just didn't give a shit.
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
The problem is individuals do a horrific job of investing for their own for retirement.
Well, when you add social darwinism into the picture, then everything works out! The 99% obviously deserve to eat dog food.

As for how to solve the issue of shitty funds in Pension funds, well, simply pass a law requiring govt pension managers to ONLY invest in index funds. Hell, we could get damn specific if you want, but that should be good enough.
Or at least fix the problem of entities robbing them. They were fine otherwise.
 
People still get pensions?

Yes? Just because younger people aren't offered them doesn't mean that all the old pensions disappeared.

I think you misunderstood the article. Pensions don't suck, the people who invest for the pension funds suck. Thats a very important difference.

Either out of ignorance or greed, they are picking shitty funds or parastic hedge funds to invest their money, all of which enriches wall street at the expense of the actual person who worked for that money. If they simply invested in Index funds pensions would be doing great

No they wouldn't. Why do people keep acting like an index is the end all be all for all people? People retiring don't want nor need something that is volatile, forcing them only to invest in index funds for the life of the pension is beyond stupid and just ignorant.
 

Piecake

Member
Also, the data in the article is old. After '08 pretty much no hedge funds charge 2 and 20 anymore. Some of the absolute top of the top still do but vast majority charge about 1.5% and 17% or so of profits with some being even longer if you invest enough/have been there for a while.

Also, it's not like these fees were ever hidden or not know about, people just didn't give a shit.

And thats not highway robbery? Hedge Funds lose to the SP 500. Count in fees, and they get destroyed. Do some hedge funds beat the index in a year? (before fees, of course) Sure. Does that same fund do it every year? I HIGHLY doubt it
 

GaimeGuy

Volunteer Deputy Campaign Director, Obama for America '16
That is my whole point. This is why Pensions suck - you don't have control of YOUR money. You have to trust that your management makes the right decision for you (lol).
No, they don't suck because you don't have control over your money. They suck because the people who are given the professional responsibility of managing your money act with professional negligence. They are the people who are most well trained to invest properly, but they use their authority and client trust for their own benefit at the expense of their clients, instead. It's a giant ponzi scheme.

The financial industry is supposed to profit from being compensated for providing you a service for your benefit, not by tricking you into allowing them to siphon money away from you. There is no professionalism in the financial industry anymore. The customer is not a client, but a tool.
 
And thats not highway robbery? Hedge Funds lose to the SP 500. Count in fees, and they get destroyed. Do some hedge funds beat the index in a year? (before fees, of course) Sure. Does that same fund do it every year? I HIGHLY doubt it

What is up with you and index funds? Are you seriously acting like there's no other accounts besides hedge funds or index funds? Your positioning is just silly and wrong. I never said they deserve those fees? I don't understand the sudden outrage though when it's been going on forever, it's not some new thing that was just discovered. And hedge funds used to be really good and beat indexes pretty consistently when they were first established and new funds still can. It's been proven that they get shittier at getting high returns the bigger the fund becomes.

No, they don't suck because you don't have control over your money. They suck because the people who are given the professional responsibility of managing your money act with professional negligence. They are the people who are most well trained to invest properly, but they use their authority and client trust for their own benefit at the expense of their clients, instead. It's a giant ponzi scheme.

The financial industry is supposed to profit from being compensated for providing you a service for your benefit, not by tricking you into allowing them to siphon money away from you. There is no professionalism in the financial industry anymore. The customer is not a client, but a tool.

Are you talking about the people at the top making millions of dollars as the whole financial industry? Because that's a pretty ludicrous statement and a stupid generalization, not everyone in the financial industry is a scumbag and making hundreds of millions of dollars. And you think there's no professionalism now? I think you should read about the history of the financial industry then. How the stock exchange was when it began, why the SEC and other entities that didn't exist were created and why a lot of new laws were passed in the 1930s during/at the end of the depression due to the financial industry.
 

Enron

Banned
No, they don't suck because you don't have control over your money. They suck because the people who are given the professional responsibility of managing your money act with professional negligence. They are the people who are most well trained to invest properly, but they use their authority and client trust for their own benefit at the expense of their clients, instead. It's a giant ponzi scheme.

The financial industry is supposed to profit from being compensated for providing you a service for your benefit, not by tricking you into allowing them to siphon money away from you. There is no professionalism in the financial industry anymore. The customer is not a client, but a tool.

"Pensions don't suck because you don't have control over your money! They suck because of <insert bad thing that is possible precisely BECAUSE you don't have control over your investments>! "

In the end - would you rather have your company's HR department determine what the right place for YOUR money is, or would YOU rather determine the right place for YOUR money?

I think the answer here is obvious.
 

Dude Abides

Banned
Relevant.

http://www.bloomberg.com/news/2013-...f-seeks-500-000-managers-not-wall-street.html

New York City’s $140 billion retirement system pays Wall Street money managers about $360 million a year, the only one of the 11 biggest U.S. public-worker pensions that refuses to manage any assets internally. Larry Schloss, the city’s chief investment officer, says the practice must end.
Schloss, 58, points to Ontario’s C$130 billion ($126 billion) teachers’ pension fund, which has returned an average 9.6 percent annually on its investments since 2003 -- 1.6 percentage points better than New York’s funds. The Canadian system reaped those gains mostly without paying outside asset managers. Schloss says the same in-house approach could work in New York. New York City’s $140 billion retirement system pays Wall Street money managers about $360 million a year, the only one of the 11 biggest U.S. public-worker pensions that refuses to manage any assets internally. Larry Schloss, the city’s chief investment officer, says the practice must end.
Schloss, 58, points to Ontario’s C$130 billion ($126 billion) teachers’ pension fund, which has returned an average 9.6 percent annually on its investments since 2003 -- 1.6 percentage points better than New York’s funds. The Canadian system reaped those gains mostly without paying outside asset managers. Schloss says the same in-house approach could work in New York.
...
Investing directly means the Toronto-based Ontario Teachers’ Pension Plan doesn’t have to pay outside managers 2 percent of assets they oversee, plus 20 percent of profits, the typical fees for hedge funds and private-equity and real-estate firms. It also gives Ontario Teachers’ more control over investments, Chief Executive Officer Jim Leech said in a telephone interview.
Among New York’s outside arrangements is a $60 million investment by four pensions in a real-estate fund sponsored by Colony Realty Partners, a Boston-based private-equity firm that oversees $3.2 billion. The fund has lost 15.5 percent since 2006, while Colony has reaped $7.7 million in fees, according to the comptroller’s office.

Paying Fees
Last year, three city pension funds paid more than $1.2 million in fees on a $160 million investment in a real-estate fund co-sponsored by Fisher Brothers, a New York-based property investor and Morgan Stanley (MS), the New York bank. The fund has returned 0.3 percent since 2004. Another 2004 real-estate investment with Tishman Speyer Properties LP returned 58.8 percent.
$1.2 million in fees on a $160 million investment in a real-estate fund co-sponsored by Fisher Brothers, a New York-based property investor and Morgan Stanley (MS), the New York bank. The fund has returned 0.3 percent since 2004. Another 2004 real-estate investment with Tishman Speyer Properties LP returned 58.8 percent.
 

Piecake

Member
Yes? Just because younger people aren't offered them doesn't mean that all the old pensions disappeared.



No they wouldn't. Why do people keep acting like an index is the end all be all for all people? People retiring don't want nor need something that is volatile, forcing them only to invest in index funds for the life of the pension is beyond stupid and just ignorant.

There are bond index funds you know, and because data says index funds are the end all be all for all people.

I really don't understand why you think that a Pension fund is some personal investment vehicle where you need to be more conservative as you age. Pensions should be concerned with long term growth. In a huge financial crash will the pension need a short term loan? Possibly, but then the fund will repay it once the market rebounds. That's how it should work and how you shouldnt structure your pension personally for every individual.

As for why I like Index funds better, Its pretty obvious. You cannot predict which fund is going to beat the market. You can predict how much that fund will cost you, and you can predict that the market will go up over a 30 year period. The data shows this convincingly. It simply makes no sense to invest in an actively managed fund and I would rather not have Govt pension funds doing that. Want your own money invested in a hedge or actively managed fund? Well shit, go for it. But I'd prefer not to have my money wasted like that

Oo! A random hedge fund or an actively managed fund beat the index (i have a hard time believing that a hedge fund will beat the index after all the fees now that they are popular). Well, did you predict that that was going to happen and invest in that fund? Will that fund do it next year and the year after that? It won't, and fees will destroy your return over the long haul. its simple arithmetic
 

Hitokage

Setec Astronomer
"Pensions don't suck because you don't have control over your money! They suck because of <insert bad thing that is possible precisely BECAUSE you don't have control over your investments>! "

In the end - would you rather have your company's HR department determine what the right place for YOUR money is, or would YOU rather determine the right place for YOUR money?

I think the answer here is obvious.
This is like anti-union propaganda. "You don't want OTHERS representing you!"
 
There are bond index funds you know, and because data says index funds are the end all be all for all people.

I really don't understand why you think that a Pension fund is some personal investment vehicle where you need to be more conservative as you age. Pensions should be concerned with long term growth. In a huge financial crash will the pension need a short term loan? Possibly, but then the fund will repay it once the market rebounds. That's how it should work and how you shouldnt structure your pension personally for every individual.

As for why I like Index funds better, Its pretty obvious. You cannot predict which fund is going to beat the market. You can predict how much that fund will cost you, and you can predict that the market will go up over a 30 year period. The data shows this convincingly. It simply makes no sense to invest in an actively managed fund and I would rather not have Govt pension funds doing that. Want your own money invested in a hedge or actively managed fund? Well shit, go for it. But I'd prefer not to have my money wasted like that

Oo! A random hedge fund or an actively managed fund beat the index (i have a hard time believing that a hedge fund will beat the index after all the fees now that they are popular). Well, did you predict that that was going to happen and invest in that fund? Will that fund do it next year and the year after that? It won't, and fees will destroy your return over the long haul. its simple arithmetic

You do because you don't want to be withdrawing payments during a large drop in the market. They don't want something that volatile, that's not a good solution. How much would hedge funds drop if they were just index funds in 08 and then on top of it all the payments going out to people with pensions? The pension would never recover from that. From never wanting your money to decrease you seem to push a plan that compounds your losses pretty badly.

And no kidding there are bond index funds, they're not much less volatile either so I'm not sure how that counters any point I've made.
 
Also, maybe you should learn to read the scholarly article you keep posting since in no way, shape, or form does it say that index funds are the end all be all for all people. You're just pulling stuff out of your ass with that, it's not saying that you should push your 90yr grandmother into strictly index funds. It's using averages of returns, nothing else in that article.
 

Piecake

Member
You do because you don't want to be withdrawing payments during a large drop in the market. They don't want something that volatile, that's not a good solution. How much would hedge funds drop if they were just index funds in 08 and then on top of it all the payments going out to people with pensions? The pension would never recover from that. From never wanting your money to decrease you seem to push a plan that compounds your losses pretty badly.

I honestly have no idea why you think a hedge fund's investments would be less volatile. A market crash is going to harm all investment The whole point of a hedge fund is to invest in risky investments to go after that alpha. Hedge funds lost shit tons of money in the crash. the article even states that if Pensions were invested all in bonds they would have MADE money.

I mean, seriously, do you honestly think investing in a hedge fund or an actively managed fund is less volatile than investing in a Total stock market, total international market and total bond market index portfolio? I am sorry, but thats just absurd.

Index funds are LESS volatile because they have greater diversification. If you want a more conservative portfolio simply increase your percentage of bond holdings. Investing in a bunch of weird shit at high fees will not make your investment less volatile. It likely will make it more so, especially if the managers aim is to go after alpha. Best way to reduce volatility is through diversification and more bond allocation.




Amount invested : $1,000,000
Annual return : 6.00%
Projected expense ratio is : 2.00%
What if the expense ratio is : 0.10%

Your investment returns over 30 years will be $2,339,746 more if the actual expense ratio is 1.9 percentage point(s) less than the projected.


Projected expense ratio
Actual expense ratio

2.00% 0.10%

Net market value after Difference
1 year $1,040,000 $1,059,000 $19,000
5 years $1,216,653 $1,331,925 $115,272
10 years $1,480,244 $1,774,024 $293,780
15 years $1,800,944 $2,362,868 $561,924
20 years $2,191,123 $3,147,163 $956,040
30 years $3,243,398 $5,583,144 $2,339,746

Lets ignore all of the other fees, such as transaction costs and the actual fund expense ratios that hedge funds charge. So, the difference between a hedge fund and an index fund is 2.33 million over 30 years if you invested 1 million.


Take off the hedge funds 20% and you ahve a difference of 2.99 million. You just lost more than half your wealth to hedge funds fees (and not even all of them!). I really don't think you comprehend the full suckitude of fees.
 
Have you not read any of my posts? You're pretty much arguing with yourself at this point, your counterpoints are arguing with things I never said nor suggested.
 

Pimpwerx

Member
It's all circling the drain, man. Very sad. I don't have a pension. I'm investing my money myself. I can't say I'm doing a great job of it lately though. PEACE.
 

Piecake

Member
Have you not read any of my posts? You're pretty much arguing with yourself at this point, your counterpoints are arguing with things I never said nor suggested.

Well, the problem is is that your posts make no sense. How would you reduce volatility? And why does volatility even matter for a pension fund? I know you said something like its bad to take out money in a down turn, but thats a terrible argument.

If you have an individual retirement account, no pension and need to take out money during a market crash, well, you do it because you have to. Same thing with the pension. What makes the pension superior is that it is a much longer investment than any individual retirement fund. Will there be instances when it needs to take out a loan from the govt to cover its obligations? Possibly. But who the fuck cares. It can repay that once the market rebounds.

Is your solution 401ks and everyone does it by themselves? They invest all their money and go over to fixed income funds when they hit 60 or so? Well, the problem is is that the data on 401ks suck. People can't save by themselves and not everyone even has a 401k. And fixed income funds, well, they dont even make enough money to beat inflation. I sure hope you invested a hell of a lot if you are planning on living another 30 years

Honestly, you do a lot of bitching, but have no suggestions or solutions
 

Enron

Banned
Also, maybe you should learn to read the scholarly article you keep posting since in no way, shape, or form does it say that index funds are the end all be all for all people. You're just pulling stuff out of your ass with that, it's not saying that you should push your 90yr grandmother into strictly index funds. It's using averages of returns, nothing else in that article.

The guy is seriously hilarious. Index funds only in your pension/retirement plan? Yeah, no thanks.
 
And thats not highway robbery? Hedge Funds lose to the SP 500. Count in fees, and they get destroyed. Do some hedge funds beat the index in a year? (before fees, of course) Sure. Does that same fund do it every year? I HIGHLY doubt it

http://www.businessinsider.com/hedge-funds-and-sp-500-nearly-identical-2013-8

Over a long-term period, the hedge fund index has basically the same performance as the S&P but with much less volatility. Of course, a "hedge fund" is just a fund structure, and literally anyone can raise one - there are great managers and extraordinarily bad managers. So, how have the managers called out in the article done, then? Great question. Here's Rhode Island's hedge fund portfolio.

http://treasury.ri.gov/documents/sic/SIC-09-13.pdf

1WxDjm0.png



So basically, over a 5-year period after accounting for fees, they had about the same returns as the S&P with about a third the volatility. Hardly seems like highway robbery to me.
 
Well, the problem is is that your posts make no sense. How would you reduce volatility? And why does volatility even matter for a pension fund? I know you said something like its bad to take out money in a down turn, but thats a terrible argument.

If you have an individual retirement account, no pension and need to take out money during a market crash, well, you do it because you have to. Same thing with the pension. What makes the pension superior is that it is a much longer investment than any individual retirement fund. Will there be instances when it needs to take out a loan from the govt to cover its obligations? Possibly. But who the fuck cares. It can repay that once the market rebounds.

Is your solution 401ks and everyone does it by themselves? They invest all their money and go over to fixed income funds when they hit 60 or so? Well, the problem is is that the data on 401ks suck. People can't save by themselves and not everyone even has a 401k. And fixed income funds, well, they dont even make enough money to beat inflation. I sure hope you invested a hell of a lot if you are planning on living another 30 years

Honestly, you do a lot of bitching, but have no suggestions or solutions

What are you talking about? This is not how it works at all. And where do they get that magical money from to pay back the loans? You're gouging the precious average returns you hold tightly to by paying back all these loans. And the government isn't going to lend money at every downturn, maybe if it's underfunded to continue operating but that means the pension is failing so I doubt people are concerned about return at that point.
 

Enron

Banned
No, I don't, actually. You're propping up a bogeyman to insist that people are better off alone when the evidence clearly demonstrates otherwise.

People are better off having some idiot pension manager go and hand it to a freaking hedge fund (the riskiest kind of fund investment vehicle there is essentially), better off leaving it in the company's hands so they can raid the funds whenever they feel like it, better off leaving it in the company's hands so that when a struggling company declares bankruptcy, they can watch as they receive pennies on the dollar? Sure, ok.

It's true, people don't do a good job of managing their 401ks collectively. However, if you ask any pensioner who has gone through one of the above situations, you bet your ass they'll tell you that they wish they had the control, and not someone else.
 

Piecake

Member
The guy is seriously hilarious. Index funds only in your pension/retirement plan? Yeah, no thanks.

I am honestly curious about what you invest in then.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickferri/2013/04/04/index-fund-returns-get-better-with-age/

Only 14% of actively managed funds beat their index over a 30 year period. Its sheer stupidity to invest in anything else.

What are you talking about? This is not how it works at all. And where do they get that magical money from to pay back the loans? You're gouging the precious average returns you hold tightly to by paying back all these loans. And the government isn't going to lend money at every downturn, maybe if it's underfunded to continue operating but that means the pension is failing so I doubt people are concerned about return at that point.

When the market goes back up. Overtime, the market always goes up. And all of these loans? lol, govt pensions didnt need to take out any loans and were in pretty good shape until 2008, and that is WITH massive underfundment and gross mismanagement. Without that, i doubt that they would need a loan or would be in trouble. And if they did need a loan, well, why not? Its better that than relying on 401ks

http://www.businessinsider.com/hedge-funds-and-sp-500-nearly-identical-2013-8

Over a long-term period, the hedge fund index has basically the same performance as the S&P but with much less volatility. Of course, a "hedge fund" is just a fund structure, and literally anyone can raise one - there are great managers and extraordinarily bad managers. So, how have the managers called out in the article done, then? Great question. Here's Rhode Island's hedge fund portfolio.

So basically, over a 5-year period after accounting for fees, they had about the same returns as the S&P with about a third the volatility. Hardly seems like highway robbery to me.

As for hedge funds, everyone knows that they were kicking ass when no one was invested in them. Do you think that is going to happen again? I have no idea and neither do you. Pretty stupid to invest in anything that has stupidly high fees that might or might not beat the index.
 

Enron

Banned
I am honestly curious about what you invest in then.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickferri/2013/04/04/index-fund-returns-get-better-with-age/

Only 14% of actively managed funds beat their index over a 30 year period. Its sheer stupidity to invest in anything else.

It's sheer stupidity to NOT invest in anything else, actually. Index funds/fixed return investment vehicles are an important part of your investment strategy, but in order to maximize your returns you need to have a mix of steady investments and more volatile ones with higher return potential.

What you are saying would make sense, if you could only invest your money in one asset class (or risk-level, if you will) and you had to choose. But that's not reality.

Anyways, regardless of what I and others think of Pensions, Hedge Funds absolutely do not belong as major components. They are among the riskiest of all fund investments, and any plan that is holding a significant amount of them is asking for trouble.
 
As for hedge funds, everyone knows that they were kicking ass when no one was invested in them. Do you think that is going to happen again? I have no idea and neither do you. Pretty stupid to invest in anything that has stupidly high fees that might or might not beat the index.

The data for Rhode Island's portfolio is for the past 5 years only. Given how everybody was piling into those things in '06-07, you can hardly say no one was invested.

There's more to a portfolio than just beating the S&P in any given year, especially for something like a pension that has objectives beyond just capital appreciation. Things like volatility and yield all matter too. That's why even in their passive portfolio they have a mix of asset classes instead of just loading up on those Russell 3000 etf's.
 
I am honestly curious about what you invest in then.

http://www.forbes.com/sites/rickferri/2013/04/04/index-fund-returns-get-better-with-age/

Only 14% of actively managed funds beat their index over a 30 year period. Its sheer stupidity to invest in anything else.



When the market goes back up. Overtime, the market always goes up. And all of these loans? lol, govt pensions didnt need to take out any loans and were in pretty good shape until 2008, and that is WITH massive underfundment and gross mismanagement. Without that, i doubt that they would need a loan or would be in trouble. And if they did need a loan, well, why not? Its better that than relying on 401ks


As for hedge funds, everyone knows that they were kicking ass when no one was invested in them. Do you think that is going to happen again? I have no idea and neither do you. Pretty stupid to invest in anything that has stupidly high fees that might or might not beat the index.

Where did loans even come up? What are you talking about? And it doesn't matter if the market goes up if you've drawn down the account while the market was down and if you didn't hedge and it went down more than the alternative. Have you seriously read any of my posts? It seems like I keep addressing the same issues and then you throw in like 6 more boogeymen that I didn't even mention let alone say.

And to your comment, you're not very well versed in the market if you think no hedge funds are still kicking ass. They've only proven that returns go down as size increases, not that they're all duds. I don't think you know how hedge funds are doing at all at your posts. I think it's even more evident when you're using pretty old data on what fees they actually charge since they have been steadily dropping for a little while now. But instead you try to say that you guarantee the market will always go up (which you can't prove or know for sure) but you can't guarantee something else that you don't know if it will go up or down.

The data for Rhode Island's portfolio is for the past 5 years only. Given how everybody was piling into those things in '06-07, you can hardly say no one was invested.

There's more to a portfolio than just beating the S&P in any given year, especially for something like a pension that has objectives beyond just capital appreciation. Things like volatility and yield all matter too. That's why even in their passive portfolio they have a mix of asset classes instead of just loading up on those Russell 3000 etf's.

Dude, wallstreet has blinded you. Average return is all that matters.
 

Enron

Banned
Where did loans even come up? What are you talking about? And it doesn't matter if the market goes up if you've drawn down the account while the market was down and if you didn't hedge and it went down more than the alternative. Have you seriously read any of my posts? It seems like I keep addressing the same issues and then you throw in like 6 more boogeymen that I didn't even mention let alone say.

And to your comment, you're not very well versed in the market if you think no hedge funds are still kicking ass. They've only proven that returns go down as size increases, not that they're all duds. I don't think you know how hedge funds are doing at all at your posts. I think it's even more evident when you're using pretty old data on what fees they actually charge since they have been steadily dropping for a little while now. But instead you try to say that you guarantee the market will always go up (which you can't prove or know for sure) but you can't guarantee something else that you don't know if it will go up or down.

Well, he DID read a Taibbi article.
 
Dude, wallstreet has blinded you. Average return is all that matters.


For a very long-term investor with locked up capital, yes I would agree with you. That's not a pension fund though - they have liabilities they need to manage in addition to their assets, and that plays a large role in portfolio construction.

There's also some political element that generally skews these things towards lower volatility even if it means lower returns. In general, they set some (largely arbitrary) "target return" - typically 6-8% - and then try to hit that with the least volatility possible.
 

Piecake

Member
The data for Rhode Island's portfolio is for the past 5 years only. Given how everybody was piling into those things in '06-07, you can hardly say no one was invested.

There's more to a portfolio than just beating the S&P in any given year, especially for something like a pension that has objectives beyond just capital appreciation. Things like volatility and yield all matter too. That's why even in their passive portfolio they have a mix of asset classes instead of just loading up on those Russell 3000 etf's.

But how do you know which hedge fun to invest in? thats the problem. You don't know which one is going to do well or not. You know what the market is going to do over time. Its going to go up. a particular hedge fund or asset class? Who knows. If you want less volatilty just invest more in bonds.

It's sheer stupidity to NOT invest in anything else, actually. Index funds/fixed return investment vehicles are an important part of your investment strategy, but in order to maximize your returns you need to have a mix of steady investments and more volatile ones with higher return potential.

What you are saying would make sense, if you could only invest your money in one asset class (or risk-level, if you will) and you had to choose. But that's not reality.

Why do you need a higher return potential than the market return? Why take that risk when you can easily make enough for retirement on simple index funds. You have a 86% chance of losing on your actively managed fund bet. Those are terrible odds.

And to your comment, you're not very well versed in the market if you think no hedge funds are still kicking ass. They've only proven that returns go down as size increases, not that they're all duds. I don't think you know how hedge funds are doing at all at your posts. I think it's even more evident when you're using pretty old data on what fees they actually charge since they have been steadily dropping for a little while now. But instead you try to say that you guarantee the market will always go up (which you can't prove or know for sure) but you can't guarantee something else that you don't know if it will go up or down.

Good luck on picking that kick ass hedge fund or actively managed fund that is about to blow up and do well. I am sure that will work out well for you.

Thats my whole issue with the lot of you. The risks you are taking to beat the market make no sense. You say a few funds beat the index or the average hedge fund ties the index over the last 5 years? Are you that arrogant that you think you have the skills and know-how (id say pure luck) to pick the right one? Yea, okay. The data says only 14% of actively managed funds beat their index over 30 years. that is terrible odds, and you are willing to risk that? Why? The risk-reward is just awful. You can't control return. You can control fees. I don't understand why it isnt obvious that you would invest in the fund with the lowest fees since that impacts your return

over a 30 year period the market will go up. It always goes up. If it doesnt, we all are totally fucked so this discussion doesnt even matter.
 

Flo_Evans

Member
Uh, correct me if I am wrong here but it really doesn't matter to the individual what the hell the pension fund does? I thought it was more of a stable income deal for life.

Obviously if the fund is managed by idiots and can't meet obligations that is bad but it's not like your pension would increase if they did beat the markets no?
 

Enron

Banned
Why do you need a higher return potential than the market return? Why take that risk when you can easily make enough for retirement on simple index funds. You have a 86% chance of losing on your actively managed fund bet. Those are terrible odds.



Good luck on picking that kick ass hedge fund or actively managed fund that is about to blow up and do well. I am sure that will work out well for you.

Thats my whole issue with the lot of you. The risks you are taking to beat the market make no sense. You say a few funds beat the index or the average hedge fund ties the index over the last 5 years? Are you that arrogant that you think you have the skills and know-how (id say pure luck) to pick the right one? Yea, okay. The data says only 14% of actively managed funds beat their index over 30 years. that is terrible odds, and you are willing to risk that? Why? The risk-reward is just awful. You can't control return. You can control fees. I don't understand why it isnt obvious that you would invest in the fund with the lowest fees since that impacts your return

over a 30 year period the market will go up. It always goes up. If it doesnt, we all are totally fucked so this discussion doesnt even matter.


There is so much wrong here I don't even know where to start.
 

Piecake

Member
There is so much wrong here I don't even know where to start.

Clearly the statistical data must be wrong!

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB10001424127887324059704578471154109438438.html

David Swenson - Hugely successful Yale Endowment manager

On numerous occasions, he has espoused the virtues of his unconventional approach that supports the buying, holding and rebalancing of a diversified index portfolio that keeps expenses and turnover low. An April 3, 2008 NPR article quotes Swensen, &#8220;&#8217;When you look at the results on an after-fee, after-tax basis over reasonably long periods of time, there's almost no chance that you end up beating an index fund,&#8217; he says. The odds, he says, are 100 to 1.&#8221;

Warren Buffett - Invest in index funds

Most investors, both institutional and individual, will find that the best way to own common stocks is through an index fund that charges minimal fees. Those following this path are sure to beat the net results (after fees and expense) delivered by the great majority of investment professionals. Seriously, costs matter.&#8221;

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=idr6c8NHuWs

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rEX81lGhMwM

Wait, what? Clearly someone is wrong in this.
 

Enron

Banned
No, your understanding of investing and investment objectives and strategies are what is wrong.

All of your points would make sense if you could only ever invest your money in either an index OR an actively managed fund, and whatever you chose you are stuck with for the long term. But that's the furthest thing from reality. No one invests like that. Investors will invest in several different asset classes and types, including riskier investments, to maximize their returns. Will index funds beat actively managed funds over 30 years? Most definitely yes. However, does the average investor stay in the same actively managed fund for 30 years? hell no. You chase the higher return in exchange for more risk. Now, hopefully, riskier investments are not the only basket you have your eggs in, but if you ever want your portfolio to outperform the market you need investments of this type in your mix.
 
Buffett contends that over-diversification can hamper returns as much as a lack of diversification. That's why he doesn't invest in mutual funds. It's also why he prefers to make significant investments in just a handful of companies.

http://www.nasdaq.com/investing/think-like-warren-buffett.stm

When Buffett talks about investing in mutual funds, he's telling that to average investors. He obviously didn't make his billions in mutual funds.
 

Piecake

Member
No, your understanding of investing and investment objectives and strategies are what is wrong.

All of your points would make sense if you could only ever invest your money in either an index OR an actively managed fund, and whatever you chose you are stuck with for the long term. But that's the furthest thing from reality. No one invests like that. Investors will invest in several different asset classes and types, including riskier investments, to maximize their returns. Will index funds beat actively managed funds over 30 years? Most definitely yes. However, does the average investor stay in the same actively managed fund for 30 years? hell no. You chase the higher return in exchange for more risk. Now, hopefully, riskier investments are not the only basket you have your eggs in, but if you ever want your portfolio to outperform the market you need investments of this type in your mix.

Well, I guess we will disagree because I think your investment objectives are totally wrong. You also apparently disagree with Warren buffett, Jack Bogle, and david Swenson!

There is no reason to beat the market because the chance of beating the market is not worth the risk. If you invest Its simply not necessary. I mean, hell, youd have a million dollars if you invested 10k at 25 and then 6k every year afterwards by the time you hit 65, and that is a pretty conservative 6% return. Your chance of losing to the market is too great, not to mention all that time you wasted picking that fund.

And different asset classes and types? I invest in everything. Total US stock, Total International stock, and total us bond (though bond is not exactly total). If you want to slice and dice and focus on specific sectors for indexes, well, you can do that if you want.

Chasing returns is stupid. Seriously. Past success is not an indicator of future success and you have no idea which fund is going to do well. Riskier investment? Who the fuck knows if that is actually going to pan out and it simply isnt worth the higher fees and risk that entails.

But hey, to each their own. I am going to stop discussing this since we clearly disagree.

http://www.nasdaq.com/investing/think-like-warren-buffett.stm

When Buffett talks about investing in mutual funds, he's telling that to average investors. He obviously didn't make his billions in mutual funds.

Oh, i forgot, everyone thinks that they are the next great investor, lol.
 

Enron

Banned
Well, I guess we will disagree because I think your investment objectives are totally wrong. You also apparently disagree with Warren buffett, Jack Bogle, and david Swenson!

There is no reason to beat the market because the chance of beating the market is not worth the risk. If you invest Its simply not necessary. I mean, hell, youd have a million dollars if you invested 10k at 25 and then 6k every year afterwards by the time you hit 65, and that is a pretty conservative 6% return. Your chance of losing to the market is too great, not to mention all that time you wasted picking that fund.

And different asset classes and types? I invest in everything. Total US stock, Total International stock, and total us bond (though bond is not exactly total). If you want to slice and dice and focus on specific sectors for indexes, well, you can do that if you want.

Chasing returns is stupid. Seriously. Past success is not an indicator of future success and you have no idea which fund is going to do well. Riskier investment? Who the fuck knows if that is actually going to pan out and it simply isnt worth the higher fees and risk that entails.

But hey, to each their own. I am going to stop discussing this since we clearly disagree.



Oh, i forgot, everyone thinks that they are the next great investor, lol.

Everyone reads a goddamned article and thinks they are an expert.

The fact that (given your list above) you think investing is all stocks (and stock indexes) and bonds just gives it away. The three experts you quoted also DON'T say that investing in anything other than index funds is dumb - which is exactly what you have been saying all thread.
 
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