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[Acosta]

I love all those games but none of them are going to sell 5 million copies whatever you do with them and that, for perfectly understandable reasons, is all Take two are interested in.

And XCOM is going to sell 5 million?

Allow me to laugh:

Ha
Ha

and..

wait for it...

Ha.

And even if, by some miracle, this game is a success and not the clusterfuck it seems to be, the only thing it would spawn is XCOM 2: THE RECKONING. That is a beating a dead horse argument, I'm still surprised it keeps coming.

If this game wasn't called XCOM nobody would give a shit about it. That's how bad it is.

 

[Aaron]

Well that is exactly what they are doing, aren't they?

Not really if they're expecting XCOM to make it's budget back.

 

[Dennis]

Somebody should tell that to the developers of Civ, Total War games and Europa Universalis cause they keep selling millions!

 

[The Technomancer]

That Ray Charles/Kanye West analogy is amazing :lol :lol

Also, fuck you Take-Two. Paradox is somehow doing alright for themselves.

 

[Akuun]

Neither is the new X-Com.

Right, but what I mean is that you can make a modern version of a game while staying true to the feel of the original. You don't have to greatly change any aspect of the game because you assume it is "outdated".

 

[Neuromancer]

What a douche.

 

[Campster]

He was speaking as a businessman. Strategy games traditionally have suffered on consoles (with a few notable exceptions, granted). Given the console-focused, shooter-heavy market that exists right now you'd have to be pretty bold to propose a AAA multiplatform strategy game. With the multimillion dollar cost of games today they saw the need to use existing IPs for new games, picked XCom out of a hat, and turned it into a shooter.

Outside of a business context, yes, his statement is stupid. Of course strategy games still matter - just in the past year there's been Civilization V and Flotilla and Total War: Shogun 2 and Frozen Synapse and more! Strategy games are alive and vibrant and totally still a viable genre. They're just not in the interests of a developer interested in AAA mega-budget game development maximizing potential revenue by releasing on consoles. They look at Supreme Commander and Halo Wars sales figures and think "No way in hell are we going that way when we could just as easily spend that $40m on another shooter." Which sucks for XCom fans, but that's how suits think. It's not to excuse their behavior - I would love to see a legitimate new XCom game instead of what we've been shown - but it at least explains it.

 

[ruttyboy]

I'm beginning to suspect that a lot of publishers know that they can't compete with the true triple A titles and so are adopting the following business plan:

1. Acquire developer (dirt cheap if you can get one that's in trouble)

2. Develop distinctly average game in largest genre (currently FPSs)

3. Make out that the game is going to be awesome and price at AAA price point whilst holding back on marketing spend

4. Make small amount of full price sales

5. Close developer citing point 4. as reason (whilst ensuring you retain sole future rights to revenue from title)

6. Discount heavily to clear the channel of day one stock and recover most of actual development costs ("Thank God we didn't spend much on marketing!")

7. Rebuild stock at lowest COGS price and pitch it as bulk 'promo' title to all retailers (with no payments to dead developer, any sale over COGS is profit)

8. Turn profit on investment in medium-long term whilst building awareness for franchise when inevitably they return to point 1.

 

[Azih]

So how come muvuk didn't bring up Starcraft in response?

 

[Spokker]

There's no need to whine about Take-Twos investment decisions. If turn-based strategy games are such a commercial enterprise, we can invest the money right now to get one started. Any takers?

I own every X-Com game twice (once when they came out and once on Steam) and I would be very cautious about sinking any amount of money into reviving the franchise unless I felt conditions were as good as they could possibly be.

It's very different when you are the one controlling the purse strings and your job is on the line.

 

[Dennis]

Prediction: X-Com the Shooter is going to bomb like an absolute motherfucker


You could make a modern X-Com strategy game for a modest budget and still be profitable but of course that is not good enough for Take-Two. Gotta chase that million-seller shooter dream!

 

[famousmortimer]

What bums me out is the lack of foresight that all of these companies have. They look at GTA last gen or COD this gen and their ideas are "it's like COD but ______."

This is what is killing shooters in general. Socom, Ghost Recon (and probably the next rainbow 6) are so far from their tactical roots because they feel like they will be laughed out of the market if they aren't like COD. The problem is that if someone wants to play COD, THEY PLAY COD! Making Socom like CoD didn't bring in new players, it only alienated their fans.

Spoiler

That said I really do like Socom 4 a lot. But not for the same reasons I loved Socom 1 and 2.

Xcom as a shooter is going to bomb. There's no two ways around that. Xcom as a turn based strategy game *might* have bombed, but it might have brought the genre back in a big way and 2k would be holding onto the property that did it. But they are afraid to be forward thinking so they just copy what's already out there. It's sad. Sometimes as an older gamer I feel like my hobby is leaving behind the things that i love.

 

[Acosta]

Somebody should tell that to the developers of Civ, Total War games and Europa Universalis cause they keep selling millions!

He should start with Meier, being an employee and all, he must be really mad at him wasting the big opportunity of a CiV action game.

Fight as troglodyte, samurai, dragoon or marine in a historic action game!

Beat the wonders of the ancient world brought to life by the aliens! Adrenaline pumping combat with The Colossus of Rhodes, the Pyramids and The Lighthouse of Alexandria among many others!

Bring your game to a new level with our multiplayer deathmatch and show everyone who is the master of history beating your enemies with the power of a nuclear bomb!

 

[ElRenoRaven]

Well I hate the sob with a passion. Anyone that says Ray Charles would be like Kanye West is a piece of shit in my book. Ray actually had talent. Kanye is a talentless piece of shit.

 

[The Technomancer]

He should start with Meier, being an employee and all, he must be really mad at him wasting the big opportunity of a CiV action game.

Fight as troglodyte, samurai, dragoon or marine in a historic action game!

Beat the wonders of the ancient world brought to life by the aliens! Adrenaline pumping combat with The Colossus of Rhodes, the Pyramids and The Lighthouse of Alexandria among many others!

Bring your game to a new level with our multiplayer deathmatch and show everyone who is the master of history beating your enemies with the power of a nuclear bomb!

You know what? I honestly would not be surprised to see Civilization: Trenches announced sometime soon.

 

[Interfectum]

There's no need to whine about Take-Twos investment decisions. If turn-based strategy games are such a commercial enterprise, we can invest the money right now to get one started. Any takers?

I got an investment opportunity for you. Create a $30 million+ AAA FPS and release it on the same day as Mass Effect 3 in a market that is completely over-saturated with first person shooters. Also, make sure you market the shit out of it because it has to sell 2-3 million copies to break even.

 

[Shambles]

Charles = Kanye? Wow........

I like this mans logic. Since apparantly no one buys strategy games the best idea is to try to keep using strategy IPs that people haven't heard of, or recognize as being a strategy series which they clearly won't want. And then turn that strategy game into a PoS so that the few dedicated fans of the series won't even touch it because you've bastardized it so much.

Clearly he's right though because everyone hates strategy. Clearly no one bought Civ5 or Starcraft 2.

You know what? I honestly would not be surprised to see Civilization: Trenches announced sometime soon.

With the direction Sid is taking the series towards garbage like facebook don't be too surprized to see the once proud name to turn into a ghost of what it once was.

 

[Furret]

And XCOM is going to sell 5 million?

Allow me to laugh:

Ha
Ha

and..

wait for it...

Ha.

And even if, by some miracle, this game is a success and not the clusterfuck it seems to be, the only thing it would spawn is XCOM 2: THE RECKONING. That is a beating a dead horse argument, I'm still surprised it keeps coming.

If this game wasn't called XCOM nobody would give a shit about it. That's how bad it is.

Many of the previews I read at E3 seemed positive, where you are you getting all this from?

The assumption that it's bad just because it isn't the game you want?

 

[Sqorgar]

It's sad. Sometimes as an older gamer I feel like my hobby is leaving behind the things that i love.

I've been having this feeling more and more over the past few months. WTF is going on?

Maybe someone can answer this question for me, but what were the main causes of the video game crash back in the 2600 E.T. days, and is the industry repeating the same mistakes?

 

[ghst]

in the eternal words of one their own employees:

"WHA'S GUNNA SELL??"

 

[Spokker]

I got an investment opportunity for you. Create a $30 million+ AAA FPS and release it on the same day as Mass Effect 3 in a market that is completely over-saturated with first person shooters. Also, make sure you market the shit out of it because it has to sell 2-3 million copies to break even.

The game was profitable for Take-Two.

But I am serious. Let's pick a developer and invest. There must be millions of like-minded people out there who want to see something other than first-person-shooters. Companies are not taking risks, and we can't make them, so let's put our money where our mouths are.

 

[Acosta]

Many of the previews I read at E3 seemed positive, where you are you getting all this from?

The assumption that it's bad just because it isn't the game you want?

Read this thread. Then read other XCOM threads in GAF.

Then come here and tell us how positive they are.

 

[ElRenoRaven]

I've been having this feeling more and more over the past few months. WTF is going on?

Maybe someone can answer this question for me, but what were the main causes of the video game crash back in the 2600 E.T. days, and is the industry repeating the same mistakes?

Well the great crash was due to a lack of control in the quality of games. You ended up with an over saturation of garbage games. As a result consumers quit buying. Also a ton of consoles to choose from didn't help that. We're not that bad yet but we are headed that way with the way the industry is behaving now.

 

[alstein]

It must feel pretty awkward to work at Firaxis and have this guy as your publishing boss.

I suspect this has much to do with why Jon Shafer is now working at Stardock.

This is also half of the reason Take 2 has earned a spot on my boycott list. (other half being DRM)

 

[The Technomancer]

With the direction Sid is taking the series towards garbage like facebook don't be too surprized to see the once proud name to turn into a ghost of what it once was.

I dunno, I don't think the idea of Civ on Facebook is inherently bad. Its the kind of massive, interconnected network game that can actually benefit from being on a social network.
That being said, I've never gotten it to work in my browsers, despite being in the beta

 

[Dennis]

in the eternal words of one their own employees:

"WHA'S GUNNA SELL??"

I remember that podcast well. Very funny.

 

[diffusionx]

What's funny is that I've seen lots of neckbeards out there praise XCOM for "doing something new." In other words, making an FPS counts as something new now. Ripping off Mass Effect's (crappy) squad mechanics counts as something new. A developer with multiple FPS games under their belt can branch out by... making another FPS.

Publishers are just giving gamers what they want.

I'm not sure if another X-Com strategy game could sell. But I think it would. I know it would stand out way more.

 

[ruttyboy]

I've been having this feeling more and more over the past few months. WTF is going on?

Maybe someone can answer this question for me, but what were the main causes of the video game crash back in the 2600 E.T. days, and is the industry repeating the same mistakes?

I'm sure someone will respond with a more complete answer but I believe it was largely down to hubris.

Too many (low quality) games crowding out the market, too much extravagance in spending.

So, yes, they are repeating the mistakes, but as for whether history will repeat itself? I believe it already is to an extent (see the mess that is the console retail market), but things like XBLA, PSN and Steam are taking the role of the NES in resurrecting the market. The difference is they're helping arrest the industry's fall whereas the NES picked the industry up after it had already fallen on the floor... if you see what I mean.

 

[Malio]

Translation: "Shooters sell more, and I like money".


Looks like I'm passing on this 'x-com shooter'.

 

[NinajHeartless]

in the eternal words of one their own employees:

"WHA'S GUNNA SELL??"

Coke, Peppy, Frito Lay!

Spoiler

They'll pay us money!

 

[Jarate]

What I hear when take two's president speaks

 

[alstein]

Translation: "Shooters sell more, and I like money".

Alternate translation: "Strategy games are too hard to do well, and I'll take the easy money."

Seriously, it's hard as hell to do strategy gaming right.

 

[Furret]

Read this thread. Then read other XCOM threads in GAF.

Then come here and tell us how positive they are.

What does GAF know? No one here has played it.

 

[ElRenoRaven]

I'm sure someone will respond with a more complete answer but I believe it was largely down to hubris.

Too many (low quality) games crowding out the market, too much extravagance in spending.

So, yes, they are repeating the mistakes, but as for whether history will repeat itself? I believe it already is to an extent (see the mess that is the console retail market), but things like XBLA, PSN and Steam are taking the role of the NES in resurrecting the market. The difference is they're helping arrest the industry's fall whereas the NES picked the industry up after it had already fallen on the floor... if you see what I mean.

The PC market never really crashed. It was never that big to be honest. So I wouldn't say that's helping keep us from a crash. Same with the XBLA and PSN. Those if anything aren't helping at all. Maybe when started and when they were focused on their original intent which was small little arcade like games they were. Now though you're seeing larger and larger games and the prices on those are going up. At the same time you're beginning to see more crap turning up in them also.

I firmly believe we are headed for another crash. It's not a matter of if. It's a matter of when. Hell you can see the signs. More and more developers are starting to close up shop. Several publishers are starting to have financial trouble due to poor sales of their games.

 

[TheSeks]

Yes, because Frozen Synapse isn't gre--oh, wait, it is and it's from an indie of all places.

Take 2's only release I bought this generation is GTA4, and that's on account that I liked 3/LCS/VC/SA last gen. It's too bad Rockstar had to make that super serious to where I didn't enjoy it much outside of some of the multiplayer modes.

With the direction Sid is taking the series towards garbage like facebook don't be too surprized to see the once proud name to turn into a ghost of what it once was.

LOLWUTPEAR.jpg

Civ World works when you play it as it is: A social network game, where you and a group of people all on at the same time make serious strides toward winning eras by working together. Sure, it isn't a traditional Civilization game, I'll agree. But it isn't a bad game, compared to some of the shit on Facebook out there.

Also Civ Rev wasn't as bad as people made it out to be, it was a decent stab at putting Civ on consoles. Too bad there won't be a Civ Rev 2 this generation if ever.

 

[Enco]

He's right in strategy games sell less than FPS games so there's really not much to argue with there.

As for whether that's cool or not, that's up for debate.

 

[HK-47]

Close, I believe that's still Baldur's Gate with 5 million copies: http://www.vg247.com/2010/07/14/interview-biowares-dr-greg-on-dragon-age-2-and-the-triple-a-trap/

I think thats for both games.

 

[shintoki]

Prediction: X-Com the Shooter is going to bomb like an absolute motherfucker


You could make a modern X-Com strategy game for a modest budget and still be profitable but of course that is not good enough for Take-Two. Gotta chase that million-seller shooter dream!

You are betting against Take Two's marketing. As long as it is a decent shooter, they'll be able to push a few millions.

 

[ruttyboy]

The PC market never really crashed. It was never that big to be honest. So I wouldn't say that's helping keep us from a crash. Same with the XBLA and PSN. Those if anything aren't helping at all. Maybe when started and when they were focused on their original intent which was small little arcade like games they were. Now though you're seeing larger and larger games and the prices on those are going up. At the same time you're beginning to see more crap turning up in them also.

I firmly believe we are headed for another crash. It's not a matter of if. It's a matter of when. Hell you can see the signs. More and more developers are starting to close up shop. Several publishers are starting to have financial trouble due to poor sales of their games.

So what we're saying is that XBLA and PSN tried to stop the industry from falling, but the industry punched them in the stomach on it's way down so they let go

 

[Neuromancer]

Prediction: X-Com the Shooter is going to bomb like an absolute motherfucker


You could make a modern X-Com strategy game for a modest budget and still be profitable but of course that is not good enough for Take-Two. Gotta chase that million-seller shooter dream!

Yep. Game looks like dogshit. 2K should let Firaxis make that rumored X-Com game.

 

[Loomer]

I use the example of music artists. Look at someone old school like Ray Charles, if he would make music today it would still be Ray Charles but he would probably do it more in the style of Kanye West.

What the hell did I just read?

 

[Owzers]

What the hell did I just read?

Some insight into the minds behind justifying why everything should be a first person shooter. It's interesting in a disgusting way.

 

[Shambles]

LOLWUTPEAR.jpg

Civ World works when you play it as it is: A social network game, where you and a group of people all on at the same time make serious strides toward winning eras by working together. Sure, it isn't a traditional Civilization game, I'll agree. But it isn't a bad game, compared to some of the shit on Facebook out there.

Also Civ Rev wasn't as bad as people made it out to be, it was a decent stab at putting Civ on consoles. Too bad there won't be a Civ Rev 2 this generation if ever.

I played Civ Rev on the ipad and thought it didn't have enough depth to be fun as a strategy game, and wasn't very fun as a game in its own right. The problem with Civ Rev and Civ World is that when do these start to become the main product and when the does the real game start to become something they just do on the side. Civ5 has been out for close to a year (I think) now and it still is filled with basic control and UI problems that should never exist on a product at release yet alone a year in. To me it seems obvious which direction Sid is headed towards, which is where the most money is which makes me sad because it's the opposite direction of making deep fun strategy games that can still make quite a bit of money.

 

[Acosta]

What does GAF know? No one here has played it.

The press have not touched the game. They don't have more elements to judge that any of us.

And GAF knows nothing, this is a forum, we are individuals. Just in case you didn't notice.

 

[MetatronM]

I know this has been done dozens of times in this thread already, but this is still one of the more boggling things I've read on the Gaming side of things in a while:

I use the example of music artists. Look at someone old school like Ray Charles, if he would make music today it would still be Ray Charles but he would probably do it more in the style of Kanye West.

What in the fuck?

 

[ElRenoRaven]

So what we're saying is that XBLA and PSN tried to stop the industry from falling, but the industry punched them in the stomach on it's way down so they let go

Yes yes I am. It wasn't the stomach though. They punched them in the balls which is even worse because now they're both falling while one's screaming in a girls voice due to the pain.

 

[Krev]

This really boils down to using the IP though, I would think very few of the people who this new game is aimed at would of ever heard of X-Com so why use the name?

This is why...

If this game wasn't called XCOM nobody would give a shit about it. That's how bad it is.

It's the same reason why Hollywood thinks that using a brand - any brand - makes a film more sellable, even if it has little to do with the source material. Because it's associated with X-Com, part of the marketing is done for them.

The failure of this game will put a bullet in that idiotic argument.

To everybody saying, "it makes sense, that's what sells!", no, it really doesn't. There's no reason T2 couldn't have greenlit an X-Com strategy game that needed to sell far less to break even. Not every game needs to be AAA $$$.

 

[MMaRsu]

The boss is a moron and appears to have not put much thought into his statement. This isn't mind boggling stuff though. Businesses go where the money is. Strategy games don't typically sell well on consoles yet FPS titles can sell truckloads of cash. It's just really obvious stuff. Nobody should be surprised as more resurrected IPs go the money route and are "ruined".

All the more reasoning to just retro game the classics that have been executed or are awaited execution. Journey, Dark Souls, Twisted Metal, and UC3 are on my radar. That's slim pickings but I'm OK with that.

To me, this generation of gaming is about retro gaming. All of the monotony and franchise killing leads me back to when gaming was diverse and the franchises were on top. I don't understand the obsession with every modern game having to be a classic. It sucks, we hate it, I hate it, but you have to roll with it.

Right. And they are dumb enough to think this will sell anything close to 500.000 with Mass Effect 3 releasing on the same day.

 

[diffusionx]

I played Civ Rev on the ipad and thought it didn't have enough depth to be fun as a strategy game, and wasn't very fun as a game in its own right. The problem with Civ Rev and Civ World is that when do these start to become the main product and when the does the real game start to become something they just do on the side. Civ5 has been out for close to a year (I think) now and it still is filled with basic control and UI problems that should never exist on a product at release yet alone a year in. To me it seems obvious which direction Sid is headed towards, which is where the most money is which makes me sad because it's the opposite direction of making deep fun strategy games that can still make quite a bit of money.

Civ World is an interesting game with a lot of potential IMO. Civ Rev was a well-done Civ 1 style, multiplayer-focused strategy game.

Civ 5 was a bad, misguided game, and the designer "quit" the firm shortly after release. Still I can see why they tried to do it, there's not much they can do in the old-style Civ formula past #4.

Good strategy games are hard, especially as developer ambition outpaces AI development. Firaxis has had their ups and downs over the years but I do believe they are trying their best.

 

[Furret]

The press have not touched the game. They don't have more elements to judge that any of us.

And GAF knows nothing, this is a forum, we are individuals. Just in case you didn't notice.

They were shown an extensive play through of the game at E3, i.e. exactly the same sort of preview as most of the games at E3.

You've just convinced yourself it's no good based purely on what it isn't, rather than what it is.