-
Hey Guest. Check out your NeoGAF Wrapped 2025 results here!
Team Meat Talks Piracy.
- Thread starter Saty
- Start date
Ranger X said:
Yep. There are pirates who do buy games and movies they've enjoyed. But I've come across far too many people who are the complete opposite and don't buy *anything* because they'd rather spend their money on other things. In their minds games and movies are free. And why would you pay good money for something that's free? You'd be out of your mind to do that. Their only purchase is the hardware (console, PC, mediabox). Everything else won't cost a dime thanks to the internet.
This has become so engrained in popular culture that it has entered the mainstream. How-To computer magazines are full of tutorials how to download stuff from Usenet, where to find subs for downloaded movies. ISPs lure consumers with high speed internet connections so they can download movies faster than ever (in a country where it's damn right impossible to rent/buy online movies legally).
But you already own it under that scenario.MMaRsu said:What if you were planning to buy the game, then pirated it, then you thought it was sooo good you just had to own it so you bought it.
Not saying I do this, but obviously it happens. It does happen that way with movies to me..and shows most of the time.
AdventureRacing said:
I'm not saying that being mediocre doesn't have anything to do with it but the market is really small already to allow second-hand sales, rentals, piracy and so on. Until there are 4 billion consoles out there games industry has right to complain.
IrishNinja
Member
AShep said:
...
i would like to apologize for taking your posts seriously prior to this. clearly, you are practicing for a theater troupe, and my attempts at an honest dialogue around your posts might've thrown you out of character. let it be known, if i can't sneak in the back door for free, i will likely pay to see your performance once your show hits the road.
*edit: too late, didn't mean to kick a man while he's down, my bad.
Another example: I'm willing to bet that a lot of you guys stopped pirating movies/TV shows once you got Netflix. Now I don't live in the US, but the impression I get is that it's similar to Steam in the way that it offers constant, easy access to content, making people willing to pay for it.
Their perspective is ludicrously narrow.
Piracy is a form of marketing, which means the less marketing you have the more piracy can help you. The reason so many indie studios and bands and such embrace piracy is for them the advertising benefit is worth it. They aren't losing sales because you can't lose sales if nobody has heard of your product.
On the other hand if you have an established product that everybody knows about and wants piracy mostly hurts you. Piracy isn't helping the PSP or the DS or the Dreamcast...
Their perspective is just as silly as the perspective of major publishers, just in the opposite direction.
Also attacking people for being old is classless and foolish.
Piracy is a form of marketing, which means the less marketing you have the more piracy can help you. The reason so many indie studios and bands and such embrace piracy is for them the advertising benefit is worth it. They aren't losing sales because you can't lose sales if nobody has heard of your product.
On the other hand if you have an established product that everybody knows about and wants piracy mostly hurts you. Piracy isn't helping the PSP or the DS or the Dreamcast...
Their perspective is just as silly as the perspective of major publishers, just in the opposite direction.
Also attacking people for being old is classless and foolish.
angular graphics
Banned
Ranger X said:
No. Piracy is going to happen anyway, either embrace it and get the most out of it like Team Meat does or go cry in a corner.
I'm sure up to 30 years ago people wouldn't (couldn't) have cyber-sex (lol), but today (some) people engage to it because now the means to it exist for the first time.
BTW here's Notch's view on piracy:
I wont bother analyzing why people copy games and other digital media, as thats really a moot point. Weve got an amazingly effective way of distributing culture that is extremely beneficial for humanity, but it clashes with our current economical models. Piracy will win in the long run. It has to. The alternative is too scary.
Be careful; suggesting that somebody pirates is a bannable offense here AFAIK.
Joseph Merrick
Member
it really is too bad super meat boy is only available on steam. I was personally lied to by one of these clowns, they said there would be a drm free version of the game available on their site. where is it? this isn't even going to generate a sale anywhere, because I'm not pirating it so not talking to anyone about the game. hehe. they're SCREWED.
unless me being annoyed by steam generates sales directly after this post? can anyone confirm?
unless me being annoyed by steam generates sales directly after this post? can anyone confirm?
More Fun To Compute
Member
Minsc said:
The perfect example of why Team Meat have a point in saying that going out of your way to antagonise people who copy games is counter productive.
http://www.retromags.com/forums/blog/6/entry-17-when-anti-piracy-schemes-backfire/
Developers might think that they are fighting back against parasites and shrugging all sorts of atlases or whatever but it's often counter productive.
Haha, yep. And people are eating it right up.ethic said:
They're absolutely right about DRM being a problem and how you need to accept that piracy is going to happen and do your best to provide a good service to paying customers rather than screwing them over, but some of what they say is actually justifying piracy. And that is not cool.
Nabs said:
http://www.direct2drive.com/10047/product/Buy-Super-Meat-Boy-Download
It's DRM-free so yeah.
My friend (student without work, you know, the type that pirates the most) pirated Assassin's Creed, but he loved it so much he bought the first two when they got cheaper. He was so stoked at the Brotherhood multiplayer that he managed to collect some money and purchased it day one.
And you know what? Multiplayer servers for Brotherhood do not work most of the time.
I don't know what he'll do when Revelation ships...
And to be sure -I'm not covertly saying about myself, it's really is about my friend - i've lived through that stupid AssCreed2 DRM and i hate it so much that I've not purchased Settlers 7, and i love that franchise since the DOS versions. :/
And you know what? Multiplayer servers for Brotherhood do not work most of the time.
I don't know what he'll do when Revelation ships...
And to be sure -I'm not covertly saying about myself, it's really is about my friend - i've lived through that stupid AssCreed2 DRM and i hate it so much that I've not purchased Settlers 7, and i love that franchise since the DOS versions. :/
Biff
Member
dun wry guize the future will be F2P with microtransactions. Torrents will just reduce server load on the distributor's end.
If you want SP campaigns and balanced multiplayer, you play on consoles. If you want iOS style 'pay $5.00 to get 50,000 in game gold and unlock all the armor!!11!1' you can just play on PC!
If you want SP campaigns and balanced multiplayer, you play on consoles. If you want iOS style 'pay $5.00 to get 50,000 in game gold and unlock all the armor!!11!1' you can just play on PC!
Princess Skittles
Prince's's 'Skittle's
These guys are smart, possibly calculated.
They know if they say piracy is cool they'll get adoration from people that "don't pirate."
Of course, what they're saying isn't false, but it doesn't mean they "get it" or are somehow cooler because they do it themselves.
They know if they say piracy is cool they'll get adoration from people that "don't pirate."
Of course, what they're saying isn't false, but it doesn't mean they "get it" or are somehow cooler because they do it themselves.
BlazeHedgehog
Member
blitzcloud said:
I think there are definitely some genuine "pirates" out there who are, in effect, "stealing" games because they don't want to pay for them. I also think that casual piracy can definitely be a gateway to that mindset.
The easiest way to head that off at the pass is to sate a user's curiosity before it gets to that point. Put out a demo - and not a wimpy, "5 minutes, barely even 1/4th of a full level" demo (*cough*Bulletstorm*cough*), either. Bring shareware back in to style; give me 20-40 minutes worth of content to evaluate.
Can't be any more a waste of resources than investing thousands of dollars in DRM that gets cracked within a week.
Joseph Merrick
Member
I bought some games on steam in 2009.subversus said:
oh is it? interestingNabs said:
fabricated backlash
Member
Roche178 said:
Try before you buy should really be the focus for publishers. Make a timed or sizeable demo of every game and release it for free. Then ask at the end if people want to buy it now.
Fighting piracy the way you fight theft in real life is a losing battle. It's like some old historian trying to solve some problems of quantum physics. It's simply not going to happen.
Team Meat is right here: This is a generational conflict. Old ideas vs. a new reality. Conservatism vs. progress.
It's not about justifying piracy, it's about recognizing its existence as a consequence of a free internet. And it's infinitely better to lose a few potential customers to piracy (I dispute that piracy results in a net loss of sales for most people -- particularly in the music and game industry where firsthand experience is pretty much the only way to make a sale) than it is to lose a few potential customers and your integrity to DRM.
I remember an interview with Cliffy B (or someone else from EPIC games) that talked about Gears of War's development. At one point Microsoft asked EPIC if they could make a demo for Xbox Live. To which EPIC replied they simply don't have the time. And it would delay the game's official release drastically.Sega1991 said:
Now, as weird as this may sound, but I find such behavior horribly disgusting coming from a game developer.
Lots of interesting questions are being raised in this thread. Is piracy equivalent to theft? Can piracy lead to more copies sold? Is every pirated copy a lost sale? What changes the nature of a pirate? We can and probably will spend a dozen pages arguing about these, but I like to think pragmatically.
If you try to sell a game, there is a non-zero chance that someone wants to play it without paying. What are you going to do about it? The answer, of course, will depend on your priorities. Beyond a certain modicum of anti-piracy, like a one-time serial key or a release on Steam, are you going to focus on making a game that people really want to buy, or a game that's hard to steal? The former is tough, but the latter is next to impossible, and usually means inconveniencing the people who are willing to pay in a usually futile effort to stop those who don't. When I hear Valve, Runic, and Team Meat say that piracy of their games doesn't really bother them, I believe it. They understand that it's better to respect the community and focus on making the best games they can, rather than treating legitimate consumers with suspicion.
If you try to sell a game, there is a non-zero chance that someone wants to play it without paying. What are you going to do about it? The answer, of course, will depend on your priorities. Beyond a certain modicum of anti-piracy, like a one-time serial key or a release on Steam, are you going to focus on making a game that people really want to buy, or a game that's hard to steal? The former is tough, but the latter is next to impossible, and usually means inconveniencing the people who are willing to pay in a usually futile effort to stop those who don't. When I hear Valve, Runic, and Team Meat say that piracy of their games doesn't really bother them, I believe it. They understand that it's better to respect the community and focus on making the best games they can, rather than treating legitimate consumers with suspicion.
Theonik
Member
So while the PS3 was pirate free were games selling better? I think the PS3 is the best case study for this.AShep said:
You lose some revenue but gain popularity and that in the long term may generate more sales thus possibly increasing your revenue or balancing out the lost sales to piracy.
At the same time there is nothing that can be done to stop piracy so your only alternative is to "deal with it". DRM these days seems to bring the inverse effect than is intended.
Edit: Pretty much instead of trying to stop shady folks from getting your games you should try to get more legitimate people to buy them
QFT. And then he went with it...Charron said:
I wonder if sales/marketing groups of AAA titles exaggerate sales lost to piracy in order to justify higher prices for their games? Do you think they might blame "lost" sales on piracy when in fact the games are simply priced too high?
Princess Skittles
Prince's's 'Skittle's
Um. No.rpg_poser said:
The problem isn't that games aren't priced too high, it's that they cost FAR too much to make.
Fine Ham Abounds
Member
I've always wondered, if you DVR a football game and show it to 5 friends, do you have to get written permission from the NFL first?
In seriousness though, I wonder how many people sitting in prison right now were surprised that thinking they weren't committing a crime didn't keep them from being prosecuted.
Companies in the music industry wised up and realized it was something so far beyond their control that they had to adapt. Services like iTunes are so successful because they allow people a legal, cheap route to accomplish their main goal - get a hold of the one good song on a $25 album full of shit.
Companies in the game industry are still in "You damn kids!" mode, trying to limit our own access to products we pay $50+ for.
Unfortunately for most of us, the majority of gamers seem to lack enough self-control to keep from continuing to pay millions to these companies regardless of whatever asinine DRM they can come up with.
The thing these Team Meat guys understand is that regardless of whether piracy is theft or not, theft is not always the primary reason people pirate. Just like specific reasons lead people to pirate music, most people who pirate games do so because:
The music industry had to change because they began losing critical amounts of money. The game industry is growing as fast as ever.
How is DRM against piracy a bad thing for a company to do if only a few consumers are willing to refrain from buying a product with the DRM?
On top of this, most people aren't willing to sacrifice playing the game at all to make their point. Piracy is so easy that it seems to be difficult for most people to both not purchase a game with DRM to prove a point and refrain from pirating it and playing it anyway.
The industry knows this, so in their eyes, the people who aren't buying their games because of their DRM are just the ones pirating the games anyway.
Even if there was a way to prove that people weren't pirating games they refused to buy, the possibility gives the companies all the ammunition they need to continue justifying DRM.
I'm not sure this problem in this industry can have the equivalent of an iTunes-style solution, but I can say that I'd be buying a lot more on games if everything was $15 and digitally distributed.
In seriousness though, I wonder how many people sitting in prison right now were surprised that thinking they weren't committing a crime didn't keep them from being prosecuted.
Companies in the music industry wised up and realized it was something so far beyond their control that they had to adapt. Services like iTunes are so successful because they allow people a legal, cheap route to accomplish their main goal - get a hold of the one good song on a $25 album full of shit.
Companies in the game industry are still in "You damn kids!" mode, trying to limit our own access to products we pay $50+ for.
Unfortunately for most of us, the majority of gamers seem to lack enough self-control to keep from continuing to pay millions to these companies regardless of whatever asinine DRM they can come up with.
The thing these Team Meat guys understand is that regardless of whether piracy is theft or not, theft is not always the primary reason people pirate. Just like specific reasons lead people to pirate music, most people who pirate games do so because:
- They don't want to spend $50+ on something which they can't be guaranteed they're going to like until they get your hands on it.
- They either are, or are like, impatient children, and are willing to pirate in order to get into something ahead of the street date. Many people who would pirate a game 2 weeks early may even be people who would drive 2 hours to actually purchase the game at a Wal Mart breaking the street date.
The music industry had to change because they began losing critical amounts of money. The game industry is growing as fast as ever.
How is DRM against piracy a bad thing for a company to do if only a few consumers are willing to refrain from buying a product with the DRM?
On top of this, most people aren't willing to sacrifice playing the game at all to make their point. Piracy is so easy that it seems to be difficult for most people to both not purchase a game with DRM to prove a point and refrain from pirating it and playing it anyway.
The industry knows this, so in their eyes, the people who aren't buying their games because of their DRM are just the ones pirating the games anyway.
Even if there was a way to prove that people weren't pirating games they refused to buy, the possibility gives the companies all the ammunition they need to continue justifying DRM.
I'm not sure this problem in this industry can have the equivalent of an iTunes-style solution, but I can say that I'd be buying a lot more on games if everything was $15 and digitally distributed.
I like hearing this type of talk. Developers should embrace the fact that we live in an age where packaged software goods are unncessary. It lowers overhead and risk. It makes marketing easier. It let's word of mouth travel farther and faster. It does let pirates get in on things but so what? If they weren't going to buy its potential marketing. Maybe they'll buy the next game, maybe they're not really gamers. Maybe its not worth thinking about, and that time is better spent marketing, developing the game, making good PR, making a small demo, or developing the next game.
DRM is such a waste of time and money and only bothers legit customers. Make the game better, more accessible, demo it. If its good enough it'll make money and a name for itself.
Super Meat Boy was funny quirky and fun. There was a lot of content and the character itself is cool. People love that and therefore will buy. The development costs were low and these 2 guys make a lot of money. That's what you call a great idea flawlessly executed and it looks like they probably had fun making it too, a true indicator of a quality product. These guys get it.
DRM is such a waste of time and money and only bothers legit customers. Make the game better, more accessible, demo it. If its good enough it'll make money and a name for itself.
Super Meat Boy was funny quirky and fun. There was a lot of content and the character itself is cool. People love that and therefore will buy. The development costs were low and these 2 guys make a lot of money. That's what you call a great idea flawlessly executed and it looks like they probably had fun making it too, a true indicator of a quality product. These guys get it.
Minsc
Gold Member
More Fun To Compute said:
Yes, I picked them partly for that reason, and specifically said "part" of the formula also for that reason. There's a lot of factors involved, and while Michael Fitch clearly has a strong opinion:
There are still other factors you have to consider, and that this is just a single case, and not by any means a blanket view of what piracy does.
I always found it comical how it played out, as Fitch puts it:
As the people who pirated the game have no shame, and were posting on the forums with all the problems the pirated code introduced in the game and it as you point out, it even spilled in to reviews of the game.
Yes, the games did make a profit, but it was not enough to secure future titles. Still, we have a few of them around, with Crate Entertainment's Grim Dawn, which uses the Titan Quest engine in a new Victorian setting. I was always fond of that engine, and am glad to see it re-surface in an improved form.
Chuckpebble
Member
They need to put their money where there mouth is and just provide their game for free download with an optional pay what you want method set up.
Maybe then I could figure out if i can get this darn thing to work in Crossover.
Maybe then I could figure out if i can get this darn thing to work in Crossover.
drhankmccoyphd
Member
Blackface said:
Ding ding ding. Book piracy has been around since the dawn of the printing press yet people still write books. Go figure.
butter_stick
Banned
Well the reality is in the middle. Piracy isn't killing the industry, but it also isn't harmless. And Team Meat are basically acting like its harmless. Which, for them, it may be. Aren't they just 5 or so guys? They don't have crazy publisher targets to reach or massive upfront investments. But to dismiss piracy as just being part of the landscape and thus acceptable is pretty ignorant to the wider implications of it.IrishNinja said: