Support NeoGAF

[Loofy]

So I'm getting conflicted messages here. People are saying 1080p/60fps are recent things, others are saying it's a recent thing...

Which is it?

(I can assure you I've been posting on gaming boards for at least 10 years)

Well the framerate argument has been going on since at least Quake. More recently Im sure you'll remember the heated arguments between Forza(30fps) fans saying its useless, and Gran Turismo(60fps) saying Forza sucks.

As for 1080p you always want something thats native resolution. It isnt a buzzword. Youre probably viewing this forum right now in 1080p.

 

[grimshawish]

60fps makes me look up at certain games as it does do a lot to the experience I find. Generally it only makes a real difference if a game is running on shit poor fps.

1080p? Don't have anything to do that. Don't care.

 

[Felix Lighter]

CoD4 certainly feels more fluid than most games to me, but I'm not sure whether that's just the nature of the controls or the frame rate.

That fluidity you are feeling in the controls and the higher frame rate go hand in hand.

 

[Conor 419]

Well the framerate argument has been going on since at least Quake. More recently Im sure you'll remember the heated arguments between Forza(30fps) fans saying its useless, and Gran Turismo(60fps) saying Forza sucks.

As for 1080p you always want something thats native resolution. It isnt a buzzword. Youre probably viewing this forum right now in 1080p.

Like I said man, I was in no way claiming these are misleading or abstract features that don't exist. In simple terms I just intuitively felt that the definition of buzzword was 'a word that generates buzz'.

I don't think it's just me, but I feel that I have seen 1080p/60FPS be WAY more prominent in recent years than it ever has been before.

 

[Loofy]

Like I said man, I was in no way claiming these are misleading or abstract features that don't exist. In simple terms I just intuitively felt that the definition of buzzword was 'a word that generates buzz'.

I don't think it's just me, but I feel that I have seen 1080p/60FPS be WAY more prominent in recent years than it ever has been before.

120fps is a buzzword.

And Sony used that already for the PS3.

 

[Gintamen]

Yes, I do know that. However from the first post I have stated that I'm clearly talking about how marketable these features are, something which I believe has exploded in the last few years.



CoD4 certainly feels more fluid than most games to me, but I'm not sure whether that's just the nature of the controls or the frame rate.

What? 60fps have always been important, high quality resolutions have been since TV's/monitors could show them. Those are known technical terms, especially in a video game forum as this.

 

[NullPointer]

Is there a difference between mono, stereo, 5.1 and 7.1 sound?
Do you prefer your web browsing to be snappy and quick or sluggish?

Honestly, I wish I could show you Max Payne 3 or Bulletstorm or Skyrim or a ton of other games running on my PC and ask you if there was a significant difference, not only in visuals but in responsiveness.

 

[Jtrizzy]

Go play the Rage demo on consoles, that game runs at a flawless 60 on consoles iirc. I'd also argue that a lot of COD's popularity comes from the fact that it runs at 50-60 fps.

 

[Eusis]

I do not buy that these terms were used as much as they were in say, the N64 era as they are now.

Stuff like Tobal was 60 FPS and sold on being "high resolution" (well ok that CAN be a buzz word), so it definitely existed then. Just not as much since, well, good luck selling every game looking like Tobal at that point in time. Well, and I was impressed with SM64's 30 (I think) FPS at the time, and how PC games can run so smoothly.

I mean, are their any studies out there that claim whether people can tell the difference?

I'm pretty sure there's studies of how many frames per second the human eye can actually recognize, though it's not set to some hard limit, basically like our eyes are analog and our displays are digital I think.

By the way, I'm pretty sure 60 FPS ISN'T recent, not even PS1 recent. Seemed to me like most NES/SNES/Genesis games ran at 60 FPS, just compare how they look to something like Rayman Origins on 3DS running at 30 FPS.

 

[Purexed]

Two terms which seem to have exploded in the last year or so. Are these features really that important or do you feel they hold more psychological weight than anything else?

Do they matter to you?

Reggie is on GAF now?

 

[Risette]

That fluidity you are feeling in the controls and the higher frame rate go hand and hand.

Right. It directly effects the responsiveness of the controls as well as the fluidity of the motion on screen. Less input delay and all.

It's why fighting games are 60fps and why many people laugh at 30fps DmC, etc.

 

[Ceebs]

Anyone can see the differences. They have real benefits, not just to visuals but for gameplay too.

720p compared with 1080p
http://www.abload.de/img/7206rcl6.png
http://www.abload.de/img/1080pbfwj.png

1080p/60fps doesn't just happen because it's an attractive buzzword (though that is true sometimes), but because of real benefits to them.

You really need to see 1080p on a monitor that is native 1080p. Without the pixel density the difference is just not that obvious.

 

[Nekofrog]

buzz words?

i've been living it for years (PC gamer)

it's a reality, a way of life

 

[Odrion]

You just can't go back after 1080 and 60 fps.

You JUST CAN'T.

 

[NullPointer]

You just can't go back after 1080 and 60 fps.

You JUST CAN'T.

I can slum it in locked 30fps land without much complaint on the consoles, but when a game goes sub 30fps? I lose my shit.

But I'll always prefer a 60fps native resolution. There's no question about it.

 

[Gintamen]

120fps is a buzzword.

Try out 60fps in comparison to 120, you will see a clear difference. If it's still a buzzword, I will swollow my pride and hide.
http://frames-per-second.appspot.com/

 

[dr3upmushroom]

Like I said man, I was in no way claiming these are misleading or abstract features that don't exist. In simple terms I just intuitively felt that the definition of buzzword was 'a word that generates buzz'.

I don't think it's just me, but I feel that I have seen 1080p/60FPS be WAY more prominent in recent years than it ever has been before.

Well, I think that 60fps has been a big deal for a long time. Resolution too. I remember a lot of talk about both when Half-Life 2 for the original Xbox came out.

I don't know what you mean when you keep saying that you're not sure if you can actually tell the difference between 60fps and less OP, just use one of the multiple tests people have posted and see. I'm guessing you probably can though, I'm not sure why you would think it's just a psychological effect, there's a pretty clear difference. Look at the controversy over the Hobbit being filmed at 48fps, that's a smaller difference between ~30 and 60 fps we usually talk about in games and a lot of people hate it.

Personally, I don't care so much about resolution. Of course I'd also prefer games to be in the highest possible resolution, but games like Alan Wake and the various Call of Duty's look great at lower resolutions, and it's annoying how people get super nitpicky about it. If I don't have a higher-res PC version right next to me as I'm playing it's just not going to affect my experience very much.

FPS is different though, 60 fps games feel great, and it also makes animation look more impressive. For example I thought it was a shame AssCreed 3 looked so choppy on consoles at E3, those animations are going to look good on consoles but they'll be incredible on PC.

 

[iNvid02]

can't go back after 120hz, it's glorious

 

[Loofy]

Try out 60fps in comparison to 120, you will see a clear difference. If it's still a buzzword, I will swollow my pride and hide.
http://frames-per-second.appspot.com/

Wouldnt I need a 120hz monitor? Not sure how it works...

 

[Fjordson]

Don't care about them nearly as much as some people, but they do make a difference.

 

[Jtrizzy]

Try out 60fps in comparison to 120, you will see a clear difference. If it's still a buzzword, I will swollow my pride and hide.
http://frames-per-second.appspot.com/

that's a cool link. I'm probably going to pick up the Asus pretty soon.

 

[Kaako]

Would be nice if they would be standard words come next gen consoles but we all know that's probably not happening. That's why we have the PC.

 

[Boss Man]

Threads. Buzz word. Should you post them?

I don't care about 1080p. I prefer 60FPS, but stable 30 is fine and dandy. Stability is most important.

 

[that1dude24]

they're not buzz words, they're a way of life


i almost feel dirty saying that, but i do tend to sacrifice visual candy till i get to around that level.

 

[GrizzNKev]

Those aren't buzzwords. They actually make games more enjoyable. You dun goofed chum.

Way of life etc., though I play at a res higher than that.

 

[revolverjgw]

ASYMMETRICAL GAMING

 

[Sinatar]

 

[squidyj]

i'd like to see 1080p (although on pc i see whatever res I want). 60fps is not worth the cost.

 

[Gintamen]

Wouldnt I need a 120hz monitor? Not sure how it works...

How about trying it out for ten seconds. I've got an older widescreen monitor, not even HDMI and it works fine.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

30 fps -> 60 fps = 200% processing power needed.
720p -> 1080p = 200% processing power needed.

720p / 30 fps -> 1080p / 60 fps = 400% processing power needed.

That's almost a generational leap. I prefer games at 720p /30 fps which bring the hardware to its limits. One of the reasons, why people often can play at high resolution and high framerates, is because their hardware is not fully utilised, since the developers are targeting hardware with lower specs. And games like Crysis 2 with Ultra Settings and DX11 would still look great at 720p / 30 fps. You can't reduce graphics to fps and resolution only.

 

[Shao Kahn Brewing a Stew]

These are not buzz words.

Precisely. These are a must in current gen console or PC gaming.

 

[Durante]

Two terms which seem to have exploded in the last year or so. Are these features really that important or do you feel they hold more psychological weight than anything else?

These are the exact opposite of buzzwords. Both have exact technical definitions and have been around for years/decades respectively.

Do they matter to you?

Yes.

 

[ampere]

I've been playing at 1600P and 60+ fps for years now.

.

I've had a 1680x1050 monitor for quite a long time now, and most of my games run well above 60 fps.

edit: well I guess for me it's '1050p', but yes with PC gaming framerate and resolution can be increased if you want them to be.

 

[squidyj]

Precisely. These are a must in current gen console or PC gaming.

no, they aren't.

 

[EatinOlives]

I see a lot of people throwing them about, when two weeks before they didn't know or care what they were.

I'm not saying they don't exist, I'm asking whether people put more weight in these features that there actually is.

I'm confused. You're angry that people actually want improvement in resolution and framerate? Those are the two most important things to improve in console gaming at this point, I have no idea why you're decrying improvements. That's something you should be applauding.

 

[Gemüsepizza]

I'm confused. You're angry that people actually want improvement in resolution and framerate? Those are the two most important things to improve in console gaming at this point, I have no idea why you're decrying improvements. That's something you should be applauding.

No they are not. As I pointed out, these "improvements" come at an incredible high price: You need 4 times the hardware power to display a game in 1080p/60fps compared to 720p/30fps. Crysis 2 with DX11 and Ultra Settings does not look considerably worse at 720p/30fps then at 1080p/60fps.

 

[Conor 419]

I'm confused. You're angry that people actually want improvement in resolution and framerate? Those are the two most important things to improve in console gaming at this point, I have no idea why you're decrying improvements. That's something you should be applauding.

Can't even begin to wonder where you drew those interpretations.

 

[EatinOlives]

Can't even begin to wonder where you drew those interpretations.

It's one thing to wonder if 30 FPS -> 60 FPS makes a difference. It's another to make statements like "People are only saying they want it because they read about it but they don't actually know" and "it's all psychological and in their heads".

No they are not. As I pointed out, these "improvements" come at an incredible high price: You need 4 times the hardware power to display a game in 1080p/60fps compared to 720p/30fps. Crysis 2 with DX11 and Ultra Settings does not look considerably worse at 720p/30fps then at 1080p/60fps.

On that statement alone I'm quite certain you haven't actually made that comparison yourself.

 

[Piggus]

These are pretty much standard if you have a semi decent PC. It's been that way for a loooong time.

For consoles though, it really just depends on the game. 60 fps in most first person games and racing games adds a lot to the experience, whereas I find it much less important in third person games and some other genres as long as the framerate doesn't fluctuate. 1080p is nice, but not as important as it is when you're PC gaming imo simply due to the distance you sit from the screen. 720p with good AA looks pretty good on my 46 inch TV but looks like garbage on my 24 inch monitor.

Oh, and if you cannot tell the difference between 30 and 60 fps then sorry to say it, but you probably have some kind of eyesight problem. The difference in smoothness is reeeaallly apparent.

 

[SapientWolf]

They're not buzzwords. They're standards.

 

[Durante]

CoD4 certainly feels more fluid than most games to me, but I'm not sure whether that's just the nature of the controls or the frame rate.

Those aren't separable issues. Everything else staying the same, a 60 FPS game will always control better than a 30 FPS one. (And, of course, 120 FPS will be even better)

 

[Conor 419]

It's one thing to wonder if 30 FPS -> 60 FPS makes a difference. It's another to make statements like "People are only saying they want it because they read about it but they don't actually know" and "it's all psychological and in their heads".

Once again I'm struggling to understand where you've made that interpretation.

 

[plufim]

Depends on the game. If it's a fast paced racing game, then 60fps is vital.

 

[Gintamen]

Crysis 2 with DX11 and Ultra Settings does not look considerably worse at 720p/30fps then at 1080p/60fps.

Yeah both should look good, the second option should look much better than the first, if you are near enough to see the details.

 

[SYNTAX182]

60 fps should be the standard already like a few years ago. Resolution is secondary, 720p still looks good, I wouldn't mind 1080p

 

[Gemüsepizza]

Yeah both should look good, the second option should look much better than the first, if you are near enough to see the details.

What would look better on the same hardware, a game in 1080p / 60fps with CryEngine 3 or a game in 720p / 30 fps with (a fictitious) CryEngine 4 and much better effects?

 

[RedSwirl]

60fps is generally better than 30 not because of looks, but feel. The controls respond faster and thus feel tighter, but every game doesn't need to be 60fps. It mostly just matters for fast-paced games. Racing games, fighting games, and music games have an unspoken 60fps rules. Console shooters should too. Right now Call of Duty is almost the only one that sticks to that rule.

1080p is just a resolution bump. 720p looks okay to me, but 1080p looks unmistakably better once you look at it on a TV screen. The reason most people don't recognize this is because relatively few people have actually seen a video game running at native 1080p on an HDTV.

Trust me, I had no idea what kind of difference it made until I finally decided to try hook up my PC to my TV. I was honestly blown away when I played the PC versions of RAGE, Crysis 2, and Skyrim. The quality of the picture and smoothness of each game seriously felt like another minor leap forward over current gen consoles. Crysis 2 made me feel like I was looking at an early next gen game. Like "this is what J Allard promised us when he said gaming would enter the HD era".

The problem is that on consoles right now, in order to get a game running at 1080p60, you basically have to make it look like a PS2 game. A lot of videophiles might be okay with that, but the general public isn't. I don't think there will ever be a framerate or resolution standard for console games. Developers just don't think the IQ is worth the sacrifice in raw graphics.

 

[MaximusNeo701]

HD is the biggest buzzword, they put that on weird things like Flash Lights, glasses(there are ones at walmart that are HD glasses and they let you see in HD) , appliances. Hey we wanna sell this product as a newer version of whats out, what should we call it; oh lets just slap HD on the end and call it a day.

Somewhere a couple of years ago I read that when they started using HD on stuff, at the time TV's were sold as high definition, that HD actual stood for something else. Might have been high density but I don't think so. Now obviously culture has adapted it to stand for high definition, though not everyone agrees where the line is.

Plus we have Full HD, HD, TruHD, etc all these silly buzzwords that get thrown on there. But seriously HD appliances? I mean common most of them don't even have screens on them.

EDIT: Apparently HD was used to stand for Hybrid Digital before it was adopted to be High Definition. Apparently there were also HD High Definition TV's.

 

[Risette]

30 fps -> 60 fps = 200% processing power needed.
720p -> 1080p = 200% processing power needed.

720p / 30 fps -> 1080p / 60 fps = 400% processing power needed.

That's almost a generational leap. I prefer games at 720p /30 fps which bring the hardware to its limits. One of the reasons, why people often can play at high resolution and high framerates, is because their hardware is not fully utilised, since the developers are targeting hardware with lower specs. And games like Crysis 2 with Ultra Settings and DX11 would still look great at 720p / 30 fps. You can't reduce graphics to fps and resolution only.

60fps isn't just a graphics issue, it makes games play better as well as look better. This is objective fact.

 

[RedSwirl]

Wouldnt I need a 120hz monitor? Not sure how it works...

No not necessarily. Even if your monitor can't display all of those frames, 120hz still makes controls respond faster than 60 or 30. It's why a lot of competitive gamers will play multiplayer games at the lowest graphical settings in order to get the highest framerate possible. At the very least when I play a game like COD I'll turn the Vsync off in multiplayer even if the screen tears like a motherfucker.