I think banning is the wrong move, you'd be better off changing him to be not racist, which shouldn't be that difficult. Changing the character changes the entire perception of him over time, and people will 'let go' of the current version much, much easier.
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The Dutch are slowly recognizing that their tradition of Zwarte Piet is racist
- Thread starter richiek
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I think banning is the wrong move, you'd be better off changing him to be not racist, which shouldn't be that difficult. Changing the character changes the entire perception of him over time, and people will 'let go' of the current version much, much easier.
Your quote totally proves their point. Not only isn't Piet a slave, he's actually a freed slave, a good thing. A friend and companion to Sinterklaas, not a slave.
It's important to recognise this fact when addressing this issue. Because almost everyone in this thread agrees that the portrayal of Piet is via racist caricature and that needs to be changed ASAP, but the essence of what Piet is, isn't bad and never has been. Which is why it's been so hard to convince people that he needs to be changed. It's the whole root of the issue. People that yell racism at the top of their lungs regarding Piet are counter-productive to making change happen.
The portrayal and imagery of Piet is the problem, not the backstory of Piet.
Yes this what I thought as well, afaik this origin story has been disproven though. For one, the first time zwarte piet was mentioned was a pietermeknecht, far before the 20th century.
Always-honest
Banned
Let's be clear here, this depiction:
Needs to go. It's so goddamn obviously racist, I think we would all be in agreement here, right? The earrings, red lips, and curly hair have nothing to do with chimney soot, and I'll bet you they're be putting up a thick accent as well.
Everybody ignores that depiction somehow, but it's practically everywhere. The soot variation is in the vast minority, from my childhood at least. It's given as the reason for their blackness all of the time, but I honestly can only remember a few out of hundreds that were just soot-type zwarte pieten.
The only thing I feel when I see this picture is excitement, because Sinterklaas is an awesome holiday. I know Zwarte Pieten are actors and not actual black people, and for me the stereotypical imagery has no racist influences whatsoever.
For me the (initial) reluctance to change Zwarte Piet was because I feel the criticism came mostly from the United States. And it's impossible for Americans to feel how dear Dutch people hold this (in my, and their eyes) innocent holiday. And people telling me what to do rubs me the wrong way. Especially if with the criticism came the implication that all Dutch people who partake in Sinterklaas are racist. Which would mean I'm racist. And I'm pretty sure that's not the case.
However, I also think that if there is a substantial amount of (Dutch) people who are hurt and offended by the imagery, and not just people who like to get offended, there's no harm whatsoever in changing the tradition. It's a children's holiday, it's about the atmosphere. Just changing the appearance of Zwarte Piet doesn't affect that one bit.
So you admit it's stereotypical imagery, but immediately say it has no racist influence? What?
Those damn outside agitators coming in to criticize racist shit is annoying, I guess. And I guess the Dutch people who have a problem with it have just been stirred up by those troublemakers?
This is not about whether or not you are individually a good person. Get over that shit. Whether or not you have actual animosity toward black people is pretty irrelevant here. The effect is racist, whether you are or not.
Then what the fuck are you mad about?
I live in a town in the UK that has a port where passenger boats frequently pass between here and the Netherlands. One Christmas there was a sort of exchanging of traditions between us and another Dutch town. Anyway, they sent a 'Black Peter' over and it was like an episode of Curb Your Enthusiasm. So fucking awkward seeing English people trying to get their heads around this jolly Dutch guy in blackface. Pretty much had to just go along with it so as not to offend these people acting as if it was the most natural thing in the world.
Old, backward-ass tradition that really needs to die out and considering the size of the non-white population in the Netherlands I'm surprised it's still done at all.
Old, backward-ass tradition that really needs to die out and considering the size of the non-white population in the Netherlands I'm surprised it's still done at all.
Just because the tradition is something kids happily enjoy does not magically counteract its obvious racist underpinnings. I don't even get why people keep using that argument. "Kids love racist stereotypes!" Yeah they do, that doesn't mean it's okay. If anything, the fact that the tradition is aimed at children means it's even more important to not hammer in old ass stereotypes.
Racism was pretty normal in Tintin comics, early Disney cartoons, and other media from that era. You can't claim they were innocent just because kids enjoyed them. When we look back I think we generally understand that old shit was problematic. Good to see the Dutch are slowly realizing Zwarte Piet is in the same pile.
Racism was pretty normal in Tintin comics, early Disney cartoons, and other media from that era. You can't claim they were innocent just because kids enjoyed them. When we look back I think we generally understand that old shit was problematic. Good to see the Dutch are slowly realizing Zwarte Piet is in the same pile.
For me this has been a conflicting part of this discussion. With every other stereotypical picture I'd say to get rid of it. But for me there are no negative connotations with Zwarte Piet whatsoever. Quite the contrary actually. The only thing I experience when I see this is happiness. It's still wrong, I know that. But a big part of this discussion comes down to Americans seeing blackface and (rightfully) thinking: Blackface, that's racist! When I see Zwarte Piet I think of 30 years of happiness together with family and presents. That cognitive dissonance takes a while to change. That's understandable, right?
I have never, ever encountered a black person in my life who was hurt or offended by Zwarte Piet. Perhaps they thought it was normal to like Zwarte Piet, perhaps they felt they couldn't speak up, I don't know, I'm not black. The first time I heard people call Zwarte Piet racist it was Americans. And if i get the feeling people are calling me racist for something I have nothing but fond memories of, that's kind of weird and makes me dig in.
And it's hard for me to accurately assess if there's just a bunch of very vocal 'triggered people' or if there are a lot of black people with actual concerns, who couldn't speak up before. Now it appears to be the latter, so I've changed my mind. And I'm all for people speaking up about stuff that hurts them.
Well...it is about whether I'm a good person individually. Because every person feels individually conflicted or attacked by calling the tradition racist. That's where a lot of the resistance comes from. Traditions and the values placed upon them are both very individually en collectively felt.
I hope this post explains better.
Let's be clear here, this depiction:
Needs to go. It's so goddamn obviously racist, I think we would all be in agreement here, right? The earrings, red lips, and curly hair have nothing to do with chimney soot, and I'll bet you they're be putting up a thick accent as well.
Everybody ignores that depiction somehow, but it's practically everywhere. The soot variation is in the vast minority, from my childhood at least. It's given as the reason for their blackness all of the time, but I honestly can only remember a few out of hundreds that were just soot-type zwarte pieten.
Holy fuck as a Dutch dude it's always painful to see this shit.
So RTL, a major television network in the Netherlands just decided to go with 'chimney Pete' this year instead of black Pete.
http://www.nu.nl/media/4340410/rtl-laat-geen-zwarte-piet-meer-zien-televisie-.html
Progress!
Sony
Nintendo
Let's be clear here, this depiction:
Needs to go. It's so goddamn obviously racist, I think we would all be in agreement here, right? The earrings, red lips, and curly hair have nothing to do with chimney soot, and I'll bet you they're be putting up a thick accent as well.
Everybody ignores that depiction somehow, but it's practically everywhere. The soot variation is in the vast minority, from my childhood at least. It's given as the reason for their blackness all of the time, but I honestly can only remember a few out of hundreds that were just soot-type zwarte pieten.
If you're going purely by history, then yes the imagary can be concidered as a stereotype introduced in the decades of racial discrimination. But the bolded? What the fuck? I guess you should experience the holiday in order to get an image of it, because obviously in your view Dutch people are racists. I haven't heard a single white person dressed as Zwarte Piet do an accent different than what is his/her own, sure there is some voice changing because they're actors, but never a different accent. That wouldn't makse sense either because the character Zwarte Piet is not from Africa.
What people, including you, need to realize is that Zwarte Piet's visual presentation is a vessel for playing the character Zwarte Piet. This character isn't dumb, isn't a savage and has no accent. These traits are commonly attributed to portrayals of black stereotypes (blackface) in the past.
How the character looks is a visual stereotype: the lips, hair, earrings, color, it has all been used in racist contexts in the past. But please, separate that from the character that is Zwarte Piet, which shows no resemblance to any racist portrayal of black people, ever. You can always twists Zwarte Piet being a helper to a white man, but the character of Zwarte Piet is of such importance to the holiday and Sinterklaar in general that Sinterklaas himself has tremendeous respect for them.
I'm pro discussion about how Zwarte Piet looks, but I won't accept you mocking the people that play Zwarte Piet as people who "likely do accent aswel".
Audioboxer
Member
So RTL, a major television network in the Netherlands just decided to go with 'chimney Pete' this year instead of black Pete.
http://www.nu.nl/media/4340410/rtl-laat-geen-zwarte-piet-meer-zien-televisie-.html
Progress!
Yeah... progress /s
What?
What's wrong with that? Seems like that's a perfect compromise that keeps the idea of that character but completely rumors blackface from it. Everyone wins.
KonradLaw
Member
Nice. Like this mod too. Keeps him recognizable, while removing the probelamtic styling and it also perfectly fits in who the character is and his role in holidays.
So RTL, a major television network in the Netherlands just decided to go with 'chimney Pete' this year instead of black Pete.
http://www.nu.nl/media/4340410/rtl-laat-geen-zwarte-piet-meer-zien-televisie-.html
Progress!
Audioboxer
Member
I can't read Dutch and given that the poster still had a black face image it appeared to me just to be a name change. If that is what it is its still pointless. There's no need to do black face at all.
New news, new thread: http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=1299024
chimney pete. it means he is dirty with cabon black because he worked at a chimney I suppose.
eXistor
Member
Now you're just reaching and that's exactly why Dutch people get so frustrated with an outsider's look at it. They don't know what Sinterklaas is and they don't know the context. All they see is black on someones face and declare it as being racist.
I'm all for removing the sterotypical blackface look; that really doesn't fly these days and it's good that it's changing, but the character of Zwarte Piet has always been friendly and making people and kids happy, giving out candy and gifts. They're much like Santa's elves.
The problem is that actual racists come out of the woodwork when they see anything they don't like. I'd say that's the real problem and changing Zwarte Piet into something more PC is absolutely not gonna change that. But again, I do recognize that his look makes racists come out and say horrible things, so at least we can take that away. But again, that is not tackling the problem at its root so in the end it won't change a damn thing unfortunately.
Audioboxer
Member
I'm just not really one to give a shit about traditions. As in believing they're infallible and not to be torn down. Christmas is a make believe holiday as it is and obviously Santa and elves aren't real lol. Either way if everyone wants to declare it as progress so be it. The only thing I'll say is don't do it to children, let them become adults and decide for themselves.
I'm Dutch and I'm amazed this has become such a heated discussion over the last few years. Black Petes are clowns. That's all they are. Clowns painted black instead of white.
If some people perceive the red lips and curly hair as racist, no problem. Change them into Soot Petes. It's the perfect solution. Remove the perceived 'racist' elements, but don't ruin the tradition with silly things like Purple Petes. That's like putting Santa Claus in a helicopter instead of a sleigh because "reindeer animal abuse".
If some people perceive the red lips and curly hair as racist, no problem. Change them into Soot Petes. It's the perfect solution. Remove the perceived 'racist' elements, but don't ruin the tradition with silly things like Purple Petes. That's like putting Santa Claus in a helicopter instead of a sleigh because "reindeer animal abuse".
Audioboxer
Member
Well last time I checked black people were real, reindeer's not so much lol. However it's 2016, maybe old Saint Nick wants a helicopter by now! /s
However I'll concede on my remarks above that this is progress. I just personally as I've said don't care much for tradition being untouchable. Humans largely put importance in tradition, and therefore humans can also dismantle said importance if it's for a good cause. As a species we are constantly evolving, or one would hope we are. No point in forever living in the past because "tradition".
Especially not when we're talking about fucking Santa Claus. Christmas, a make believe holiday as it is. Considering that fact it should therefore be on humans to make celebrating a holiday we've made up as welcoming to all as possible. If it's all about good fun and bonding, then who the fuck is furiously trying to hold onto pointless social/political stances that can upset minorities?
Kudos on RLT doing this. Works just as well and kids won't mind. Within a couple years it's all kids have ever seen/known when thinking about zwarte piet and we stop being occupied with the controversy and return to what it should be - a holiday for the children and an exciting time for them.
That short ancient Sesamstraat segment really opened my eyes regarding the issue at hand. I was initially in the 'don't force your [North-American] politically-correct agenda on us, our society and history is not the same' camp, but said segment made it quite obvious the issues are older and affect fellow Dutch. As a kid, you really don't notice it that way since it's always been just kinda there, you don't know any better. Same way the old Kuifje comic books didn't really register as racist at that age.
That short ancient Sesamstraat segment really opened my eyes regarding the issue at hand. I was initially in the 'don't force your [North-American] politically-correct agenda on us, our society and history is not the same' camp, but said segment made it quite obvious the issues are older and affect fellow Dutch. As a kid, you really don't notice it that way since it's always been just kinda there, you don't know any better. Same way the old Kuifje comic books didn't really register as racist at that age.
Not to try to derail, I don't think it would be good to keep Zwarte Piet as he is right now and it is a good step to use soot rather than to use blackface.
Reindeers are real though. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reindeer . Of course Reindeer's won't get offended and they are not harmed in anyway due to their depiction so it's not a good analogy anyway.
Audioboxer
Member
I mean the red nosed flying kind Saint Nick uses
As in it's impossible for there to even be a question of animal abuse as no one is riding reindeer's through the sky. Well, I haven't seen anyone manage it yet!Fair enough, I understand the intent to be soot is far more acceptable than just cracking open a tin of black paint and going to town (with red lips and earings to match). However just because something is a story told to children shouldn't mean it's forever sacred. We make progress as humans by constantly re-evaluating the things we do/have done.
ClosingADoor
Member
That's clearly not blackface at all. It's a white guy with dirt on his face because that fits the character according to the stories told to children.
I don't see anything offensive about someone with a dirty face. Don't know what progress needs to be made from there.
I mean the red nosed flying kind Saint Nick uses
Oh yeah, for sure.
KonradLaw
Member
Kornoponing
Neo Member
The current (and racist) form of Black Pete was introduced in the 1850's by a schoolteacher who just wrote a book with song verses. There is absolutely no reason why a tradition can't be changed. Before the 1850's Sinteklaas had no steamboat and no servant...
Bump. Vox put out a video today talking about Zwarte Piet. I didn't think it was worth a new thread but it's a good breakdown if anybody wants to share it.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBqoH-qx-os
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jBqoH-qx-os
nkarafo
Member
No, this is how tribes are portrayed.
I don't know where you lived, or watched TV then, but that accent is done VERY often. You go ahead and pretend it's not there, and assume that I'm not Dutch all you want, but it's still gonna be there, and you should face it - it's fucking racist (not just the accent, that depiction as well).
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