Frozenprince
Banned
"unfortunate outdated imagery" is code wordy as FUCK.
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The Dutch are slowly recognizing that their tradition of Zwarte Piet is racist
- Thread starter richiek
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Frozenprince
Banned
Whaaaaaat? Nooooooo. Nothing about any European tradition less than a century or so old involving could be racist Slay. Come on now. They're just traditions. Traditions that require blackface to survive.
TBiddy
Member
Violence definitely pisses me more off than a non-violent 200 year old tradition. But that might just be me.
8 X 11 Printer Paper
Member
Every fucking year...I guess this gif I made for last Zwarte Piet will have some use again sadly.
It's really, really fucked up that you don't believe that discrimination against black children is worthy of attention. It's not quite as fucked up (but still really, really fucked up) that your knee-jerk reaction to a topic about white racism against non-white people is to scare monger about scary non-white people.
While it's true most Dutch people never really associate Zwarte Piet with racial questions, because Zwarte Piet in their eyes is not a black character, but rather simply a character who happens to be black, we only got there through some major tunnel vision. And the whole victim complex of suddenly these identity politics knobs turn it into something racist is simply a lie.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIc715Md_MU
In the eighties, big bird already acts like a racist around Gerda Havertong, who explains that Sinterklaas is not considered a feast by many black Dutch people. Proving once again big bird is a fucking nazi, but also the insensitivity of Dutch people for the subject already thirty years ago.
And they did at times introduce more overt racist elements like zwarte Piet being a funny talking goof. Until a few years later they figured no wait that's actually racist, but refraining from looking at the similar minstrel show visual embellishments that are still present.
While I agree most people who Stan for Zwarte Piet are not actual racists and calling them that could slow down change, we also shouldn't absolve them as they dig into the feeling they have a right to be racist. We all agree the solution is simple, take away the fat lips and earrings and just focus on a soot Piets, yet why is it taking so long?
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jIc715Md_MU
In the eighties, big bird already acts like a racist around Gerda Havertong, who explains that Sinterklaas is not considered a feast by many black Dutch people. Proving once again big bird is a fucking nazi, but also the insensitivity of Dutch people for the subject already thirty years ago.
And they did at times introduce more overt racist elements like zwarte Piet being a funny talking goof. Until a few years later they figured no wait that's actually racist, but refraining from looking at the similar minstrel show visual embellishments that are still present.
While I agree most people who Stan for Zwarte Piet are not actual racists and calling them that could slow down change, we also shouldn't absolve them as they dig into the feeling they have a right to be racist. We all agree the solution is simple, take away the fat lips and earrings and just focus on a soot Piets, yet why is it taking so long?
Messofanego
Banned
Sinterklaas is an innocent tradition. Well, until actual black people are involved...
...
http://www.stnicholascenter.org/pages/zwarte-piet/
Black children and adults living in the Netherlands report difficult experiences during Sinterklaas season. A black Dutch friend of researcher and journalist Shantje Jagmohansingh was once at a large Sinterklaas party with hundreds of families. She reported that Sinterklaas asked each child what they wanted to be when they grew up. "When he came to me, Sint said he didn't need to ask because, 'You are going to be Zwarte Piet because you've got the color already.'"
"Probably every black person in the Netherlands has been called a Black Piet at least once in his or her life. Especially in the weeks prior to December 5. It hurts, it always has and always will," says Marthe van der Wolf. "I never really knew why it made me feel uncomfortable. I grew up as an adopted black child in a white liberal home where I was told colour doesnt exist. And I believed that. But still, the comment was hurtful at the time. . . . Growing up celebrating Sinterklaas I felt excluded as my face didnt need to be painted. And as a kid, that hurts. . . . After all these years I have finally figured out why it is distressing to me when referred to as Black Piet. And now that I know, I cant express this, for I would upset white peoples feelings."
"It is an affront to people of the African Diaspora in the Netherlands, and it is not proper in this age," says Artwell Cain, director of the National Institute for the Study of Dutch Slavery and its Legacy.
"It was about six years ago when my mum came home from work and phoned me," says performance artist Quinsy Gario, who was born on the Dutch Caribbean island of Curacao. "On the phone I could hear her trembling. She was upset, livid, and said someone at work, in front of customers, had said, 'We were wondering where our Zwarte Piet was and there you are.'"
After that Gario began including references to racism and Zwarte Piet in his poetry and performances, including making and wearing the Zwarte Piet is Racisme T-shirt. Reaction was strongly encouraging as others requested the T-shirts. Someone else even started a Facebook page for the project.
In 2011, Gario, together with Siri Venning (Danish researcher studying African, Afro-Surinamese and Dutch Caribbean experience of Sinterklaas), Steffe Weber (journalism student covering the entry), and Kno'Ledge Cesare, went to the national Sinterklaas arrival in Dordrecht. They took a banner with the words, "Zwarte Piet is racisme" and "the Netherands can do better." When police told them it could not be used due to a ban on demonstrations, they rolled it up and uncovered their T-shirts. They report that police told them that would be okay. Gario and Cesare stood there, wearing the T-shirts, hoping to start conversation about racial relations in the Netherlands. As they stood peacefully among the crowd, wearing their "Zwarte Piet is racisme" T-shirts, another policeman told Gario to leave. When he asked why, Gario was violently thrown to the ground, held there and repeatedly kneed in the back, dragged away and pepper-sprayed, even though he didn't resist. Police officers arrested him and his three companions. "I spent six and a half hours in a jail cell for freedom of expression," Gario said.
The very next day when Sinterklaas arrived in Amsterdam, a group of young black men and women were there, wearing T-shirts they had spray-painted with the same Zwarte Piet is racisme slogan. They, too, were arrested for disturbing the peace. Together these actions led to more people requesting the T-shirts.
"We began this project because we [sensed] a want of historical knowledge about the figure of Zwarte Piet," Quinsy Gario explained. It aimed at starting a 'sane dialogue, based on facts.' We dont say: 'stop celebrating Sinterklaas.' We say: 'study the origin of the phenomenon of Zwarte Piet and ask yourself the question if that is still acceptable in todays world."
The original video, posted to Facebook and YouTube went viral. The arrest was reported and shown in Italian, Indian, French, Norwegian, and US newspapers and web sites. It was not shown on Dutch television.
As Zwarte Piet protests have grown, Dutch defense of tradition and resistance to change has also increased. "The majority here in Holland refuse to talk about Black Pete," said playwright Walraven. "They are afraid that the people who discuss it want to take away Sinterklaas as a phenomenon." Daily newspaper De Telegraaf responded, "This [Sinterklaas] is nothing more than a simple and innocent children's festival that has been unjustly attacked and from which no one need feel excluded. It has never been proven that the "Black Peter" figure incites discrimination or racism or any kind of negative image of people with dark skins . . . . Black Peters are an integral part of a Dutch custom that has long been one of the country's most important traditions and vital to our national heritage. And these sourpusses can't change that." "These are very old traditions," said politician Jan Pronk, once U.N. envoy to Sudan, "I don't think it's so bad."
However, complaints about Zwarte Piet increased to more than 100 in 2011, the regional Anti-Discrimination Bureau for Amsterdam reported. They used to receive just one or two a year. Director Jessica Silversmith says, "It's not only Antilleans or Surinamers who are complaining," referring to people descended from the former Dutch colonies that once traded in slavery. "It's all kinds of Dutch people." She continued, "Nobody is against the Sinterklaas celebration or is calling people who celebrate it racist. But it is time to consider whether this is offensive, whether there actually are racist ideas underlying Zwarte Piet."
However, some changes have already taken place. Since 2008 Sinterklaas (not just Zwarte Piet) has been unwelcome at Amsterdam's Schiphol Airport, recognizing that Zwarte Pieten would offend many international travelers. When HEMA brought Sinterklaas to London in 2010, there were no Black Petes. It has been reported that retail chain Albert Heijn and biscuit-baker Bolletje no longer include such images. Blokker and V&D retail chains are showing kids with ash-smudged cheeks in their catalogs, rather than black-face. Some schools and other places are using Regenboog Pieten (rainbow Petes) and other non-blackface helpers.
Over much of the world Sinterklaas is celebrated by Dutch ex-pats, former Dutch colonies, and communities of immigrant Dutch descent. In the United States Dutch heritage communities of Holland, Michigan; Pella and Orange City, Iowa; are counted among places that celebrate with Pieten, not Zwarte Pieten.
Dutch national news RTL asked Holland, Michigan's mayor Kurt Dykstra about the city's wit Pieten (white Petes). He responded, "Any time a tradition comes to a new place in a new time, you have to modify it a little bit to make it suit its context." The Holland Area Convention and Visitors Bureau director remarked, "I'm so glad we never went there. So glad. You just can't do that." The Dutch newscaster reported, "The children here [in America] have no problem with white Piet."
"Probably every black person in the Netherlands has been called a Black Piet at least once in his or her life. Especially in the weeks prior to December 5. It hurts, it always has and always will," says Marthe van der Wolf. "I never really knew why it made me feel uncomfortable. I grew up as an adopted black child in a white liberal home where I was told colour doesnt exist. And I believed that. But still, the comment was hurtful at the time. . . . Growing up celebrating Sinterklaas I felt excluded as my face didnt need to be painted. And as a kid, that hurts. . . . After all these years I have finally figured out why it is distressing to me when referred to as Black Piet. And now that I know, I cant express this, for I would upset white peoples feelings."
"It is an affront to people of the African Diaspora in the Netherlands, and it is not proper in this age," says Artwell Cain, director of the National Institute for the Study of Dutch Slavery and its Legacy.
"It was about six years ago when my mum came home from work and phoned me," says performance artist Quinsy Gario, who was born on the Dutch Caribbean island of Curacao. "On the phone I could hear her trembling. She was upset, livid, and said someone at work, in front of customers, had said, 'We were wondering where our Zwarte Piet was and there you are.'"
After that Gario began including references to racism and Zwarte Piet in his poetry and performances, including making and wearing the Zwarte Piet is Racisme T-shirt. Reaction was strongly encouraging as others requested the T-shirts. Someone else even started a Facebook page for the project.
In 2011, Gario, together with Siri Venning (Danish researcher studying African, Afro-Surinamese and Dutch Caribbean experience of Sinterklaas), Steffe Weber (journalism student covering the entry), and Kno'Ledge Cesare, went to the national Sinterklaas arrival in Dordrecht. They took a banner with the words, "Zwarte Piet is racisme" and "the Netherands can do better." When police told them it could not be used due to a ban on demonstrations, they rolled it up and uncovered their T-shirts. They report that police told them that would be okay. Gario and Cesare stood there, wearing the T-shirts, hoping to start conversation about racial relations in the Netherlands. As they stood peacefully among the crowd, wearing their "Zwarte Piet is racisme" T-shirts, another policeman told Gario to leave. When he asked why, Gario was violently thrown to the ground, held there and repeatedly kneed in the back, dragged away and pepper-sprayed, even though he didn't resist. Police officers arrested him and his three companions. "I spent six and a half hours in a jail cell for freedom of expression," Gario said.
The very next day when Sinterklaas arrived in Amsterdam, a group of young black men and women were there, wearing T-shirts they had spray-painted with the same Zwarte Piet is racisme slogan. They, too, were arrested for disturbing the peace. Together these actions led to more people requesting the T-shirts.
"We began this project because we [sensed] a want of historical knowledge about the figure of Zwarte Piet," Quinsy Gario explained. It aimed at starting a 'sane dialogue, based on facts.' We dont say: 'stop celebrating Sinterklaas.' We say: 'study the origin of the phenomenon of Zwarte Piet and ask yourself the question if that is still acceptable in todays world."
The original video, posted to Facebook and YouTube went viral. The arrest was reported and shown in Italian, Indian, French, Norwegian, and US newspapers and web sites. It was not shown on Dutch television.
As Zwarte Piet protests have grown, Dutch defense of tradition and resistance to change has also increased. "The majority here in Holland refuse to talk about Black Pete," said playwright Walraven. "They are afraid that the people who discuss it want to take away Sinterklaas as a phenomenon." Daily newspaper De Telegraaf responded, "This [Sinterklaas] is nothing more than a simple and innocent children's festival that has been unjustly attacked and from which no one need feel excluded. It has never been proven that the "Black Peter" figure incites discrimination or racism or any kind of negative image of people with dark skins . . . . Black Peters are an integral part of a Dutch custom that has long been one of the country's most important traditions and vital to our national heritage. And these sourpusses can't change that." "These are very old traditions," said politician Jan Pronk, once U.N. envoy to Sudan, "I don't think it's so bad."
However, complaints about Zwarte Piet increased to more than 100 in 2011, the regional Anti-Discrimination Bureau for Amsterdam reported. They used to receive just one or two a year. Director Jessica Silversmith says, "It's not only Antilleans or Surinamers who are complaining," referring to people descended from the former Dutch colonies that once traded in slavery. "It's all kinds of Dutch people." She continued, "Nobody is against the Sinterklaas celebration or is calling people who celebrate it racist. But it is time to consider whether this is offensive, whether there actually are racist ideas underlying Zwarte Piet."
However, some changes have already taken place. Since 2008 Sinterklaas (not just Zwarte Piet) has been unwelcome at Amsterdam's Schiphol Airport, recognizing that Zwarte Pieten would offend many international travelers. When HEMA brought Sinterklaas to London in 2010, there were no Black Petes. It has been reported that retail chain Albert Heijn and biscuit-baker Bolletje no longer include such images. Blokker and V&D retail chains are showing kids with ash-smudged cheeks in their catalogs, rather than black-face. Some schools and other places are using Regenboog Pieten (rainbow Petes) and other non-blackface helpers.
Over much of the world Sinterklaas is celebrated by Dutch ex-pats, former Dutch colonies, and communities of immigrant Dutch descent. In the United States Dutch heritage communities of Holland, Michigan; Pella and Orange City, Iowa; are counted among places that celebrate with Pieten, not Zwarte Pieten.
Dutch national news RTL asked Holland, Michigan's mayor Kurt Dykstra about the city's wit Pieten (white Petes). He responded, "Any time a tradition comes to a new place in a new time, you have to modify it a little bit to make it suit its context." The Holland Area Convention and Visitors Bureau director remarked, "I'm so glad we never went there. So glad. You just can't do that." The Dutch newscaster reported, "The children here [in America] have no problem with white Piet."
...
Imro Rietveld, who grew up as the only black child in his class, reported in 2013 that every year he was subjected to a month of taunts, such as "Your whole family is coming over in the [stoomboot]: and "Can you do tricks." He said some people are afraid to speak out against Black Peter because they are worried about being ridiculed or even losing their jobs.
Questions about racism and Zwarte Piet have spread to places that celebrate Sinterklaas outside the Netherlands. In Sint-Niklaas, Belgium, former alderman Wouter Van Bellingen recalls being taunted growing up as a black kid in the mostly white town, "Look, there goes Black Pete."
http://www.stnicholascenter.org/pages/zwarte-piet/
Frozenprince
Banned
I say I say god damn
Messofanego
Banned
Violence should piss you off absolutely when black people are beaten up by police for peacefully protesting against Zwarte Piet.
This is why I prefer the term casual racism for this, takes the sting off a bit and is more accurate. It's inherent in Dutch culture to be casually racist about tons of things, just think back on all the inherently racist jokes Dutch people tell. They don't even recognise they're doing it. Jokes about Chinese names, and such.
And in social situations, it's very common to make a joke at the expense of others in The Netherlands, we love to go straight for the jugular with friends, hit them in their weak spots. Anyone with Black or Asian friends in their group knows there's no taboo on teasing them about their race in one way or another. Most of the times, I reckon most Dutch people don't even realise for a second they do it. As I said, it's something that doesn't just happen with black people. Have a religious person in your group? He's gonna get teased about it. Fat person? Fair game. Gay guy? Oh myyyy. List goes on.
It's ingrained in Dutch culture and it's gonna take a long while for everyone to catch on and realise what they're doing and how it affects minorities. They simply don't recognise it, most will deny it at first. I know it took me a while to figure out what I was doing and how much a part of daily life it is in our culture. You grow up with it, you know?
TatteredHat
Member
I hate that it's taking so much effort to convince my fellow countrymen to change some small parts of a children's celebration. We as a people should be, and I believe we are, better than this.
Yeah, I don't understand what some people are so defensive about. This is obviously about the red-lipped, talking-with-accent, curly haired, wearing-large-golden-earrings, type of Piet, which has definitely been very pervasive over the years.
I was confused about this at first, because although I did see it as a child, and thought it was weird that they had red lips and would talk funny, but when you get an explanation of 'chimney soot', you sort of accept/believe it as a child and move on.
The red lips and earrings are seriously racist now that I look at it again, after the uproar these past years, and it's not something that you can or should defend (looking at you neorej).
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yZ03ycMpVSI
This rundfunk sketch is a good example of it. Poor Victor, the casual racist.
ReplacementPelican
Member
European? Really? C'mon dude, get that chip off your shoulder and think about what you're actually saying.
As for Zwarte Piet, I feel the conversation has become muddled to the point where people are debating their own interpretation of blackface from a cultural perspective and ignoring the fact that ZP actually involves a stereotypes and outdated principles of what being 'black' is and that alone makes it racist enough.
Messofanego
Banned
Gives a new meaning to "going Dutch".
Aurelius
Member
You mean that guy that misbehaved during the arrival of Sinterklaas in 2014?
Who didnt obey a demonstration prohibition, who then decided to stand amongst small, young children and started yelling obsanities to make his point, who then resisted arrest injuring a police officer in the process? And who now has video evidence of this so claimed abuse from three different camera angles only proving it was all staged just to provoke?
For all of this, he is now facing a 1500 euro fine in our terrible racist country.
TatteredHat
Member
Nobody is safe within the context of Dutch humor.
TBiddy
Member
Violence always pisses me off. Whether or not they are blacks have no say in that. I hope you feel the same.
And they shouldn't, to be fair. I'm not Dutch, but between me and my nearest friends, there's always a banter running. I'd never offend someone I didn't know, but between friends almost everything is fair game.
TatteredHat
Member
That's what it's like over here as well, we're still sensible enough to not attempt blunt humor with random strangers.
The Shadow Knight
Member
I think it may be some mix of nostalgia and self perception.
As in:
-People do not perceive themselves to be racist
-This old tradition they have fond memories of can't possibly be racist because it's something they are very positive about and they aren't racist according to their self perception
-People then proceed to value their own perception over the perception of those that are actually negatively affected(because that's what a lot of people do, their perception of things is king)
-People start coming up with all sorts of excuses and rationalizations to support their perception
I could be completely of the mark tho.
As for my own stance on this(Belgian here):
Anything that purports the age old, and incredibly racist, stereotype of the subservient black person should be done away with.
It's really that simple.
I just hope everybody agrees that the big red lips, the earrings and the hair has to go.
I really wish I could see inside peoples head, because for me it is impossible to understand how people feel when they are called Zwarte Piet. Do people think it is enough after the racist blackface elements I mentioned before are removed? Will there still be negative thoughts when they are identified with a children's symbol kids adore?
I really wish I could see inside peoples head, because for me it is impossible to understand how people feel when they are called Zwarte Piet. Do people think it is enough after the racist blackface elements I mentioned before are removed? Will there still be negative thoughts when they are identified with a children's symbol kids adore?
Frozenprince
Banned
Maybe don't characterize black children. Maybe that's a start. Just let the children be children to one another not "but Lucy is different thus she must be mocked"
...Because otherwise kids aren't going to notice? Were you a child at any point? They're vicious, heartless monsters to each other.
They are regarding "Zwarte Piet". Maybe not all of them. But I can understand that there are black women in The Netherlands that are afraid to put on big golden earRINGS around the Sinterklaas period. Especially man.
Chuckie
Member
Two huge golden rings?
Yeah kind of...especially considering the context:
Spot the similarities between this old ass comic and Zwarte Piet:
She also explains its not a fun tradition for most black Dutch people.
I grew up with Sinterklaas and worked with children for a few years, I'm pretty sure they don't care about the color, they only want the gifts etc..
I can see its racist and it needs a new direction.
Two huge golden rings?
Yeah kind of...especially considering the context:
Spot the similarities between this old ass comic and Zwarte Piet:
Huh, that's legit news to me. Curly hair and big red lips, sure, but I'd never heard of the earrings thing.
Vivalaraza
Member
Chuckie
Member
Aurelius
Member
There are many examples of this taking place. It has been covered by the media, actually been properly researched and even discussed in our parliament. So I would hardly call it racist stereotypes.
But Sinterklaas is a very safe topic to get upset about. Be it Zwarte Piet or the gender stereotypes in advertisement for childrens toy. Nobody who disagrees with you is going to cut your head off.
Also, most people in this topic, and in The Netherlands, agree that Zwarte Piet has to change, to modernize. What we are disagreeing about is the pace and reasons for these changes. I dont see the need to rush this through a law. Just because a couple of professional protesters are offended, or people from a country with actual huge racial tension project their views about racism on The Netherlands.
I am worried that rushing this proces will only increase actual racism and the popularity of extreme right wing parties, because many Dutch people will feel we are again giving up part of our culture to foreigners.
Phobophile
A scientist and gentleman in the manner of Batman.
After reading the first couple pages, I can't (ok I can) believe people are still outraged over the concept of synechdoches.
As a Dutch person, the sooner we rid this festivity of it's blatantly racist stereotypes, the better. There are more and more towns adjusting to at least feature more variations of Piets. I am confident that Zwarte Piet is slowly phasing out, just like the sweets we used to call "Negerzoenen". That name being banned got a lot of resistence, but as soon as it was actually erased from the stores, nobody gave a shit anymore. But for that to happen the Dutch people need to get continued criticism, so by all means let us know that this is racist and maybe the progression to a non-racist festivity everybody can enjoy will occur faster.
As a kid, I grew up celebrating Zwarte Piet and they are often depicted as heroes in cartoons/films/tv shows, with the explaination that they get their skin tone from the chimney's (which makes no fucking sense, see clothing, hair, and lips). But as an adult I think it is the responsibility of all the adults to recognize this is racist and adjust it for coming generations, despite it being a tradition with no ill intent in the eyes of most Dutch people.
The actual target group of this whole thing, the children, really don't give a damn. If you change the skin colors and get rid of the stereotypical hair/attributes, most if not all kids will adapt extremely quick and in as short as a few years, the newer generation will be there and they don't even know how it used to be. It all seems so backwards to me, we are being educated at primary school about racist stereotyping (at least I was during the 90's), with many examples from cartoons and commercials and somehow nobody connected the dots why Zwarte Piet is just as bad. On one side you have schools teaching you how and why the early 1900's stereotypes are really bad and on the other hand you have the same schools dressing up as the same stereotype in december. That is so stupid and I wish more Dutch people would put tradition/pride aside and actually think about that for a moment.
As a kid, I grew up celebrating Zwarte Piet and they are often depicted as heroes in cartoons/films/tv shows, with the explaination that they get their skin tone from the chimney's (which makes no fucking sense, see clothing, hair, and lips). But as an adult I think it is the responsibility of all the adults to recognize this is racist and adjust it for coming generations, despite it being a tradition with no ill intent in the eyes of most Dutch people.
The actual target group of this whole thing, the children, really don't give a damn. If you change the skin colors and get rid of the stereotypical hair/attributes, most if not all kids will adapt extremely quick and in as short as a few years, the newer generation will be there and they don't even know how it used to be. It all seems so backwards to me, we are being educated at primary school about racist stereotyping (at least I was during the 90's), with many examples from cartoons and commercials and somehow nobody connected the dots why Zwarte Piet is just as bad. On one side you have schools teaching you how and why the early 1900's stereotypes are really bad and on the other hand you have the same schools dressing up as the same stereotype in december. That is so stupid and I wish more Dutch people would put tradition/pride aside and actually think about that for a moment.
Chuckie
Member
That name never got banned. It was all a huge publicity stunt by the company who made them.
You are right about nobody giving a shit anymore though.
Messofanego
Banned
Oh, we're just going to conveniently forget Dutch colonialism's slavery in Dutch colonies was a thing until 1863, way after Britain and France. Just because it didn't happen on home soil, the Dutch can just wipe their hands clean of their history.
Messofanego
Banned
Rushing to change or end the racist elements of a cultural tradition is going to cause racism...yeah, then I think we need to rush it and let racists lose their power ASAP. Also, they've been "rushing" it for decades and there has been little budging.
What are we waiting for? Racists to die out or suddenly change their stubborn views? That ain't gonna happen. They are the professionally offended cultural garbage hoarders, they'll always think they're losing culture because Netherlands won't go back to being a homogenously white country (unless a leader starts mass deportations and commits other human rights abuses). They don't deserve any power. We shouldn't stop progress because of racism, that just means we need to fight harder more than ever for positive change.
Let's be clear here, this depiction:
Needs to go. It's so goddamn obviously racist, I think we would all be in agreement here, right? The earrings, red lips, and curly hair have nothing to do with chimney soot, and I'll bet you they're be putting up a thick accent as well.
Everybody ignores that depiction somehow, but it's practically everywhere. The soot variation is in the vast minority, from my childhood at least. It's given as the reason for their blackness all of the time, but I honestly can only remember a few out of hundreds that were just soot-type zwarte pieten.
Needs to go. It's so goddamn obviously racist, I think we would all be in agreement here, right? The earrings, red lips, and curly hair have nothing to do with chimney soot, and I'll bet you they're be putting up a thick accent as well.
Everybody ignores that depiction somehow, but it's practically everywhere. The soot variation is in the vast minority, from my childhood at least. It's given as the reason for their blackness all of the time, but I honestly can only remember a few out of hundreds that were just soot-type zwarte pieten.
I'm not wiping anything. I'm saying the story of zwarte piet originated on the main country, where slavery was never allowed. Slavery happened (and it definitely happened an awful lot) outside of the public's eye, a literal world away in a time without mass communication. So it doesn't make sense for it to be rooted in slavery, when there was no slavery at its roots. Modern day zwarte piet (not its progenitor) started out as a paid servant, because as I said, slavery was never allowed. Now the caricature features that were introduced around 1930(?), that may have a history in slavery, or at least in the kind of perception that made slavery possible to continue on for so long.
I said it doesn't matter, because its current incarnation is still racist and needs to go.
Also yes the way the Netherlands tries to sweep slavery under the rug is shameful and problematic. I just don't see a clear causal link in this case. Rather, they are both extensions of the same lack of introspection.
Always-honest
Banned
Exactly.
Wow, reading Facebook messages this time of year is horrible. People posting stuff like "Zwarte Piet is here to stay, share and like". Like they are in a fight with people from outside the Netherlands. The people they are fighting are Dutch. For generations and generations. But still these white people think they have more right to call the Netherlands their country than people with a different skincolour who have been living there for ages.
It's heartbreaking to see how little people are willing to do to make everyone feel accepted and equal. The only thing that needs to happen is getting rid of the blackface. There won't even be a big change.
WE CAN'T DO THIS SHIT ANYMORE. IT HAS TO STOP! And it will. Even if it takes time.
And nothing will change for the kids. Nothing.
You're so biased it's making you blind of the most obvious thing ever
Zwarte Piet is a fucking slave, any Dutch person knows this. Well, everybody not lying out of his ass knows.
How Zwarte Piet is depicted is not up to standards with the time we live in now. But the character certainly isn't a slave.
Yes. Only he isn't. So you're the one who is lying. A knecht is not a slave, even though we frown at the connotation of the name now (the name evolved into 'mannetjes' or 'huisvrienden', or more in general 'assistent'). But a knecht was a pretty normal paid job until halfway into the sixties and seventies, and heck in some rural areas around the Bible belt, still well into the eighties and even nineties. Friends of mine used to have a knecht. We scoff at it now (did back then too), but he was certainly not a slave.
I am truly ashamed of my country. Politicians have been discussing this topic for over 4 years now.
People scream, its our culture. well, burning witches was also normal long time ago.
Kids, dont care if Zwarte Piet was purple, yellow, green or red. All they want is presents and sweets. So ban Zwarte Piet and prevent racism. It aint that hard!
People scream, its our culture. well, burning witches was also normal long time ago.
Kids, dont care if Zwarte Piet was purple, yellow, green or red. All they want is presents and sweets. So ban Zwarte Piet and prevent racism. It aint that hard!
His origin is that of a slave.
He's not Sinterklaas' slave, true, but it's not like the connection isn't there.
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