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The Dutch are slowly recognizing that their tradition of Zwarte Piet is racist
- Thread starter richiek
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The legacy of Dutch colonialism disagrees with you.
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a lot of my threads involve me fucking up somehow. Perhaps I'm a moron?
No shit hahaha. I couldn't even finish reading that post. Good lord pick up a fucking history book.
Frozenprince
Banned
I know you're banned but god DAMN. This is some next level fallacy right here.
I think that part of our history is often ignored which is a bad thing imo. We rightfully celebrate things like the VOC and inventing stocks, but we shouldn't ignore the bad things in our history.
Switch Back 9
a lot of my threads involve me fucking up somehow. Perhaps I'm a moron?
Ah it's cool, I'm Canadian. We spend all day chastising Americans for being horrible racists while our Native communities don't even have clean drinking water. Hypocrisy is a bitch.
Aztechnology
Member
Sweet Saint Nicholas... Wtf
Eh the article may be a bit too optimistic but we'll see (or at least, the title. The rest is just recent developments)
The discussion can be on the level of the Black Lives Matter discussion in the US, some people really feel as if you attacked their soul by calling Zwarte Piet racist and saying it has to change. It is seen by the opponents (of the change) as if the 'foreigners' are taking over the country and destroying Dutch culture.
The discussion can be on the level of the Black Lives Matter discussion in the US, some people really feel as if you attacked their soul by calling Zwarte Piet racist and saying it has to change. It is seen by the opponents (of the change) as if the 'foreigners' are taking over the country and destroying Dutch culture.
Nah guys the Dutch only sold slaves to South America, that's totally different
[/s]
woopWOOP
Member
Wait, whaaaat? I figured it was a done thing. Did they get too many complaints and changed it back? Man that's really disappointing...
Fallout-NL
Member
Yup, views held by either racists, xenophobes, idiots or all of the above.
Frozenprince
Banned
Ah yes, the age old cry of the bigot.
"My culture".
"My culture".
1.21Gigawatts
Banned
In my opinion they aren't slowly realising its racist. They knew it was racist all along. They just slowly come to terms with the fact that some of their traditions are shit. Its always hard to accept you made a mistake.
Its the same with all the other cases of black facing in europe. Only very few adults can actually say they don't know its racist. They at least have to deliberately ignore a few voices telling them and deliberate ignorance is just as bad as knowlingly doing something wrong in my opinion.
There are only very few cases where the people actually didn't know, like this german soccer team that wanted to make a statement against racism, like this:
The had a black teammate(middle row, 3rd from the right) who was repeatedly insulted racially by other teams and also on other occasions so he wanted to quit playing soccer. So his team painted their faces black to show solidarity and as a result he didn't quit. So yay for them but hopefully someone told them.
Its the same with all the other cases of black facing in europe. Only very few adults can actually say they don't know its racist. They at least have to deliberately ignore a few voices telling them and deliberate ignorance is just as bad as knowlingly doing something wrong in my opinion.
There are only very few cases where the people actually didn't know, like this german soccer team that wanted to make a statement against racism, like this:
The had a black teammate(middle row, 3rd from the right) who was repeatedly insulted racially by other teams and also on other occasions so he wanted to quit playing soccer. So his team painted their faces black to show solidarity and as a result he didn't quit. So yay for them but hopefully someone told them.
A lot of Europeans ignore their colonialist past when thinking Zwarte piet is not racist.
Same here.
If Zwarte Piet is black from going through chimneys all the time, maybe he should look like a guy who goes through chimneys all the time.
pinkurocket
Member
I always thought the chimney story was made-up later to make it sound less racist, I remember it being popularized by the kids TV-show 'Dag Sinterklaas' but that's a Belgian show, not sure if that also made that 'theory' popular in the Netherlands.
But anyway as a Belgian, who also celebrate this holiday, I really want to see it changed. Kids aren't gonna care, it's the grumpy old people wanting to stick to their tradition.
To be fair I think for many native Dutch people (lower classes to be specific) it may seem like everybody is out to get them. The economic policies might not benefit them personally and they have to deal with their neighborhoods becoming non-white, deal with foreign cultures and may see criminal activity coming from an economic disadvantaged immigrant population. Add to that the anger about the EU, Islam etc.
It may seem like now, after giving up their country to the EU and the immigrants, they even have to change their own traditions to fit the outsiders. The only thing they have left.
Like most things I think we'll end up having a decent compromise in the end, our population density is too high for us to not make things work.
It may seem like now, after giving up their country to the EU and the immigrants, they even have to change their own traditions to fit the outsiders. The only thing they have left.
Like most things I think we'll end up having a decent compromise in the end, our population density is too high for us to not make things work.
In my opinion they aren't slowly realising its racist. They knew it was racist all along. They just slowly come to terms with the fact that some of their traditions are shit. Its always hard to accept you made a mistake.
Its the same with all the other cases of black facing in europe. Only very few adults can actually say they don't know its racist. They at least have to deliberately ignore a few voices telling them and deliberate ignorance is just as bad as knowlingly doing something wrong in my opinion.
There are only very few cases where the people actually didn't know, like this german soccer team that wanted to make a statement against racism, like this:
The had a black teammate(middle row, 3rd from the right) who was repeatedly insulted racially by other teams and also on other occasions so he wanted to quit playing soccer. So his team painted their faces black to show solidarity and as a result he didn't quit. So yay for them but hopefully someone told them.
dat photoshop
I hope?!
About fucking time too. The people I know who are fine with Zwarte Piet (mostly older people) always use the "it's a tradition!" line as the main excuse, forgetting that something being a tradition says nothing about it being good or bad. There's good traditions and there's bad traditions, and this is just a bad one that's taking too long to get rid of. The Dutch are stubborn like that, I guess.
Dubbedinenglish
Banned
Gold earrings too. I guess they are hanging in Dutch chimneys!
Also bright colorful clothes that look like they were freshly dry cleaned.
Wow, joke post right?
Zwarte Piet defense force member here?
The most annoying thing about chimmey soot story as an ad-hoc justification is that they haven't even put in the bare minimum effort requires to make it seem legitimate.
Isn't this man a leading Dutch politician:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geert_Wilders
And didn't the Dutch elect this man years ago:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pim_Fortuyn
We talking glass houses and stone here, bruh.
Forgetting about what the descendants of Dutch colonials did in South Africa?
……forgetit
Member
King Gilga
Member
I don't get it.
If he's supposed to be like that because he came through a chimney why not make him sooty makeup instead of obvious blackface caricature makeup.
If he's supposed to be like that because he came through a chimney why not make him sooty makeup instead of obvious blackface caricature makeup.
D
Deleted member 1235
Unconfirmed Member
Wilders is an agent, we use him to detect the assholes nobody should talk to.
Well you see because
Everybody's reaction in this gif always gets me. LOLOLOLOLOLOL
ROFL
Ah so these are the students coming out of the UvA and VU these days I see?
MistakenMobius
Member
Well for all the despicable things of the PVV.
They are much more progressive than Trump or the GOP could ever dream.
I'm pretty sure they are even left of the Democratic Party except on immigration.
MistakenMobius
Member
Messofanego
Banned
I'm more concerned by the lack of nuance in these threads. Some kid in Holland dressing up as Piet for tradition doesn't deserve to be given the same 'racist' label we give to actual KKK members who believe in white supremacy.
Racially insensitive, sure, but even that's the fault of the parent not the kid.
I'm dutch and black and find this shit racist as all hell. It was never offensive to me as a kid, and acknowledge that the characterisation of black pete has grown into something positive over the years. But you can't ignore the symbolism and you can't forget the history. It might not be offensive to you, but it can be hurtful as all hell to people who didn't grow up on the tradition.
Messofanego
Banned
Who's going about this thread wanting to place the blame on the kids? You're making up a strawman. Also, this tradition could be changed, even just the skin colour, and kids wouldn't care. It's just the adults so stubborn about keeping the blackface.
The chimney narration is part of some songs we used to sing as kids during Sinterklaas. Alot of the more insensitve lines have been changed, but some still give away the origin of pete. 'Black pete, he's black like soot' whoops!
Anyway, chimney's also give you afro hair, big res lis and moorish slave attire, didn't you know that?
Who said the word blame? Talk about your straw man, sheesh.
I specifically mentioned the lack of nuance because the majority of posters aren't going to any lengths to clarify their thoughts about the children participating other than to say it's racist.
Blue Ninja
Member
That's what the "new" Zwarte Piet looks like in most cases. There's still many who cling to the old look, though. It's a process that's going to take years, if not decades.
Eppy Thatcher
God's had his chance.
Well you see because
gif game on point
I always love how the chic in the foreground takes like half a second to think about it and just fucking BOUNCES like the Flash LoL
And yes - it's hilarious that it took until 2015/2016 for them to look at this "tradition" and be like... "Oh.... OOooooOoHhHhhhhh... shit."
As an ex dutch colony, Im growing up with story that if kids misbehave, the Black Pete will put you in his sack and take you away
But thanks for the poffertjeis though
Messofanego
Banned
By blame, I mean you're asserting that people here want to label the kids as racist and I'm not seeing it. Feel free to enlighten me. The practice itself is racist though, without a doubt.
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