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[NickFire]

ignorance is bigotry.

I don't see any evidence of ignorance. His view is penis = man, and vagina = woman, and can we please stop talking about the issue. I understand that mental health research suggests it is healthy for people to live the way they feel inside, but that does not mean his view is ignorant, incorrect, etc, or that he is a bigot for being sick of hearing about the issue.

 

[Wolves Evolve]

I fail to see a bigot here. His view is simple, he does not believe a man is a woman, or vice versa, because they feel or decide otherwise. He didn't advocate harming anyone, he did not advocate excluding them from anything, he simply expressed his view that he is sick of hearing about this issue.

Well 'man' and 'woman' are words, not stone obelisks, and lots of people - lots - have all sorts of biological, chemical, glandular and other differences that would disqualify them from being what's on their birth certificate. He can stop hearing about it if he likes, but he doesn't get to decide what people are - they do. And if he continues to insist that their birth certificate is the source of their identity, then he's a fucking pissbabbbbyyyyyy

 

[Spongebob]

Well, I don't disagree with him.

 

[Krejlooc]

is this about people who were born with certain conditions like hermaphrodites or people who decided they weren't a man/woman one day?

Transgender people don't just decide one day that they are a particular sex. They feel it their entire lives, since birth.

 

[Apt101]

The man has a right to free speech and the consequences that come along with it. I stopped visiting The Escapist some time ago and have no plans to ever return now.

 

[NathanS]

I think it's a bit of both, I'm pretty sure it's where "harping" came from.

Actually harping is simply a verbing of "harp."

 

[The Technomancer]

It really doesn't. But does it mean that they should be punished with the massive penalty of losing their job? Dude might have an innocent wife and kids. It seems like people on the internet have no fucking idea what a trauma it can be to be fired, the effect it can have on a person or kids or anyone dependent on that person.

Funnily enough it is also traumatic to have people deliberately misgender you out of spite or dislike. Hence why suicide rates among trans individuals are shockingly, horrifically high.

 

[Armaros]

It really doesn't. But does it mean that they should be punished with the massive penalty of losing their job? Dude might have an innocent wife and kids. It seems like people on the internet have no fucking idea what a trauma it can be to be fired, the effect it can have on a person or kids or anyone dependent on that person.

If a person is just being ignorant, that's just not enough to call for his job, sorry.

So if someone is blatantly racist while doing their job out of ignorance 'they were raised that way', they shouldn't be fired if it looks bad on the company?

Ignorance is never an excuse to discriminate against a population.

 

[doctorblurg]

It really doesn't. But does it mean that they should be punished with the massive penalty of losing their job? Dude might have an innocent wife and kids. It seems like people on the internet have no fucking idea what a trauma it can be to be fired, the effect it can have on a person or kids or anyone dependent on that person.

If a person is just being ignorant, that's just not enough to call for his job, sorry.

So if I go on twitter and say all black people are on welfare and don't deserve to be treated like any other person, I shouldn't be fired from my job?

 

[andymcc]

I don't see any evidence of ignorance. His view is penis = man, and vagina = woman, and can we please stop talking about the issue. I understand that mental health research suggests it is healthy for people to live the way they feel inside, but that does not mean his view is ignorant, incorrect, etc, or that he is a bigot for being sick of hearing about the issue.

i was referring to you but whatever lmao

 

[bishoptl]

I don't see any evidence of ignorance. His view is penis = man, and vagina = woman, and can we please stop talking about the issue. I understand that mental health research suggests it is healthy for people to live the way they feel inside, but that does not mean his view is ignorant, incorrect, etc, or that he is a bigot for being sick of hearing about the issue.

thanks for your attention to detail

 

[ShinRPGamer]

After the major lashback and public outcry against Gabe from Penny Arcade when Gabe inarticulately expressed his own simplistic view of genders, I'm surprised Brandon Morse would even say something like this:

Found the source, finally: https://twitter.com/TheBrandonMorse/status/347764103927963649

And the context: he was talking about Gabe coming under attack for his transphobic comments, so this was right as that was happening:

And this last gem:

Natural order. Welp, you were born with an umbilical cord, nothing will change that. You're a fetus forever.

Yep no doubt about it. This guy is a hypocritical bigot.

The only reason I still go to The Escapist at all with Jim and Bob gone is for Yahtzee and honestly I'm not even sure how long that will last. It's only a matter of time before The Escapist loses all of the relevancy it once had.

 

[JDSN]

and can we please stop talking about the issue.

Why?

 

[Griss]

Funnily enough it is also traumatic to have people deliberately misgender you out of spite or dislike. Hence why suicide rates among trans individuals are shockingly, horrifically high.

I'm aware of transgender issues, and believe me I feel for transgendered people. My opinions on such issues have changed radically over the last 10 years, before which I didn't even know of the existence of such a condition.

So if someone is blatantly racist while doing their job out of ignorance 'they were raised that way', they shouldn't be fired if it looks bad on the company?

So if I go on twitter and say all black people are on welfare and don't deserve to be treated like any other person, I shouldn't be fired from my job?

Racial issues are so well established in the western world so as to make a mockery of anyone who could claim ignorance of them. Trans issues do not hold that same place in society, most people are genuinely completely ignorant about such issues.

Obviously in both examples, firing would probably be appropriate.

 

[Kinvara]

I don't see any evidence of ignorance. His view is penis = man, and vagina = woman, and can we please stop talking about the issue. I understand that mental health research suggests it is healthy for people to live the way they feel inside, but that does not mean his view is ignorant, incorrect, etc, or that he is a bigot for being sick of hearing about the issue.

Okay, so it sounds like you don't want to have a discussion then why post?

And yes his view is ignorant, incorrect, and bigoted because gender is a social/identity construct. Not limited to your physical genitalia.

 

[BenjiGAF]

Why?

Because Brandon Morse has the final word in who is and is not a boy or a girl



Apparently

 

[Alucrid]

I don't see any evidence of ignorance. His view is penis = man, and vagina = woman, and can we please stop talking about the issue. I understand that mental health research suggests it is healthy for people to live the way they feel inside, but that does not mean his view is ignorant, incorrect, etc, or that he is a bigot for being sick of hearing about the issue.

So why is his view on who is a man or a woman correct yet our view on who is a bigot incorrect?

 

[the_batman]

The science is coming back that yes, there is something biological going on with dysphoria.

like a hormone imbalance?

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Why?

I think he is saying that "can we please stop talking about it" is Morse's position

 

[Manu]

Natural order. Welp, you were born with an umbilical cord, nothing will change that. You're a fetus forever.

brb, telling my cat she's actually a human female.

 

[NickFire]

thanks for your attention to detail

Ok if he's saying he wants to discriminate or harass against them i would say that's crossing a line and I can understand the flak he's getting. But I still don't believe it's fair how much crap people get on the Internet for not agreeing that biology determines sex, and I don't feel that view makes them bigots.

And yeah, I didn't see that second part at first.

 

[doctorblurg]

I'm aware of transgender issue, and believe me I feel for transgendered people. My opinions on such issues have changed radically over the last 10 years, before which I didn't even know of the existence of such a condition.





Racial issues are so well established in the western world so as to make a mockery of anyone who could claim ignorance of them. Trans issues do not hold that same place in society.

Obviously in both examples, firing would probably be appropriate.

I think you'll find that many people in this thread do find it holds a similar place in society when transgender people have the lowest life expectancy due to suicide and people just flat out killing them

 

[Ketkat]

brb, telling my cat she's actually a human female.

Not even remotely the same

 

[Sai-kun]

brb, telling my cat she's actually a human female.

really good post

Ok if he's saying he wants to discriminate or harass against them i would say that's crossing a line and I can understand the flak he's getting. But I still don't believe it's fair how much crap people get on the Internet for not agreeing that biology determines sex, and I don't feel that view makes them bigots.

just because you don't feel it doesn't make it any less true.

 

[A Link to the Past]

brb, telling my cat she's actually a human female.

telling you that you're incredibly ignorant.

 

[Armaros]

I'm aware of transgender issue, and believe me I feel for transgendered people. My opinions on such issues have changed radically over the last 10 years, before which I didn't even know of the existence of such a condition.





Racial issues are so well established in the western world so as to make a mockery of anyone who could claim ignorance of them. Trans issues do not hold that same place in society, most people are genuinely completely ignorant about such issues.

Obviously in both examples, firing would probably be appropriate.

So because the issue is new compared to racial problems we shouldn't care or act on it?

I guess a particular minority needs to be suppressed for longer for its issues to become important enough to care about and act on.

 

[appaws]

No-one's complaining because he supported the US operations in Iraq or he thinks the budget deficit is too high or privatizing education is a good thing. This isn't about him being conservative, its about him being a bigot.

Can you hold traditional views on sexuality and gender norms and not be a bigot...? Is that possible...?

He claims that the expectation that he acknowledge trans people is some kind of "violation of his rights"

I am a conservative and a Catholic. I hold with my church and its views on sexual behavior, sexual sin, and the God-created complementary nature of the sexes.

I see the face of Christ in all people, but I believe in objective moral standards that do not bend to cultural trends....

Am I a bigot? Am I trash? Am I transphobic? Am I all the things that this Brandon guy has been called in this thread...?

 

[Manu]

telling you that you're incredibly ignorant.

What? I was making fun of the guy's ignorant tweet.

 

[LumpOfCole]

I think this is more transignorant than it is transphobic, but it's still just as bad.

 

[A Link to the Past]

What? I was making fun of the guy's ignorant tweet.

Oh, nm :v

 

[Ketkat]

I think this is more transignorant than it is transphobic, but it's still just as bad.

Read through the rest of the thread, its transphobic

 

[Kinvara]

telling you that you're incredibly ignorant.

I think you took his comment the wrong way.

Morse said "it has a vagina. It's a woman"

But cats can have vaginas? So the comment makes no sense.

/beaten

 

[Griss]

I think you'll find that many people in this thread do find it holds a similar place in society when transgender people have the lowest life expectancy due to suicide and people just flat out killing them

No, you've misunderstood me. I'm not saying that trans issues are less important (even though they inarguably affect less people). What I'm saying is that racial issues are an established social touchstone in western society that every child grows up aware of. Every kid who watches football sees 'No to racism' ads, or gets taught not to be racist in school etc, and then hears racist jokes behind the woodshed. No one grows up unaware of racism and that it's a bad thing - it's a pervasive thing in society.

Trans issues just aren't the same - most high school kids probably still don't know exactly what transgenderism is, or how common it is, or what the correct way to speak to a transgender person is. The awareness just isn't there. That's what I meant.

So because the issue is new compared to racial problems we shouldn't care or act on it?

I guess a particular minority needs to be suppressed for longer for its issues to become important enough to care about and act on.

Of course we should act on it - by
a) Educating kids about transgender issues in high school
b) Ensuring that health care is covered under insurance
c) Ensuring hate crimes vs transgender people are properly criminalised
d) Ensuring mental health professionals are properly trained to deal with transgender people and their specific issues

But firing someone who's views are ignorant and not up to the speed of the liberal internet hive mind is not the way to do it.

 

[mollipen]

I don't see any evidence of ignorance. His view is penis = man, and vagina = woman, and can we please stop talking about the issue. I understand that mental health research suggests it is healthy for people to live the way they feel inside, but that does not mean his view is ignorant, incorrect, etc, or that he is a bigot for being sick of hearing about the issue.

The problem is, judging somebody solely by what they have between their legs discounts ANY mental or emotional factors in a person. Is that an okay thing to do?

Has science proven what causes someone to be transgender? No. However, some studies seem to show that the brains of transgender people seem to function much more like the genders they identify with, and less like a match to what their bodies are. At some point, we have to decide what is more important in determining who we are as people: our brains or our bodies. We've already decided "brains" is the answer in a lot of cases out there, but some people still aren't willing to accept that for those who are trans.

So, the question is, I suppose, how much proof must exist before we expect people to trust science over their own opinions? (A question also raised in the recent anti-vaccination arguments.)

And the "being sick of hearing about the issue" is a thing you use whenever you're not on the side of the people who are struggling for acceptance or understanding, whatever that social, political, religious, racial, or otherwise topic is.

I mean, do you know how it feels to have people call you a liar, delusional, mentally ill, or otherwise simply for trying to align your life so that you can finally feel like yourself? If that's your opinion, then yeah, it's going to bother me a little.

 

[Kelegacy]

Guy is entitled to his beliefs, won't blacklist an entire site for it. If his beliefs aren't forced down my throat in his work, I am fine with that. I would feel this way even if he was incredibly positive about the issue too.

 

[Ogimachi]

Is it transphobic to believe in the XY sex-determination system? What about religious beliefs? He might be aggressive and all, and I didn't know this guy existed before this thread, but I don't see anything in the OP' to support the accusations here.

 

[Kinvara]

No, you've misunderstood me. I'm not saying that trans issues are less important (even though they inarguably affect less people). What I'm saying is that racial issues are an established social touchstone in western society that every child grows up aware of. Every kid who watches football sees 'No to racism' ads, or gets taught not to be racist in school etc, and then hears racist jokes behind the woodshed. No one grows up unaware of racism and that it's a bad thing - it's a pervasive thing in society.

Trans issues just aren't the same - most high school kids probably still don't know exactly what transgenderism is, or how common it is, or what the correct way to speak to a transgender person is. The awareness just isn't there. That's what I meant.

But the issue is that Morse is willfully ignorant.

He doesn't educate himself on the issue and doesn't want to hear people talk about it.

He is aware that trans people exist but he refuses to respect their identities.

 

[doctorblurg]

No, you've misunderstood me. I'm not saying that trans issues are less important (even though they inarguably affect less people). What I'm saying is that racial issues are an established social touchstone in western society that every child grows up aware of. Every kid who watches football sees 'No to racism' ads, or gets taught not to be racist in school etc, and then hears racist jokes behind the woodshed. No one grows up unaware of racism and that it's a bad thing - it's a pervasive thing in society.

Trans issues just aren't the same - most high school kids probably still don't know exactly what transgenderism is, or how common it is, or what the correct way to speak to a transgender person is. The awareness just isn't there. That's what I meant.

Sorry if I misunderstood but if anything what you just said should be a call for transgender issues to become as much of a big deal in society as racism is. These topics are rarely talked about and when people like this guy are hired onto a journalistic website it prevents the discussion from being had, and allows for that ignorance and unwillingness to change to spread. That and he obviously isn't ignorant like some may be he just downright doesn't care or respect transgender people

 

[UrbanRats]

Oh whelp, there it is, direct evidence contradicting his "I'm fine with trans people but..."stance

His definition of "being fine with them" is he won't chase them down the street, apparently.
What a tool.

 

[Steel]

Is it transphobic to believe in the XY sex-determination system? What about religious beliefs? He might be aggressive and all, and I didn't know this guy existed before this thread, but I don't see anything in the OP' to support the accusations here.

As bish has pointed out more than once in this thread:

thanks for your attention to detail

 

[BenjiGAF]

But the issue is that Morse is willfully ignorant.

He doesn't educate himself on the issue and doesn't want to hear people talk about it.

He is aware that trans people exist but he refuses to respect their identities.

In fact he goes out of his way to disrespect them...

 

[gdt]

Can you hold traditional views on sexuality and gender norms and not be a bigot...? Is that possible...?



I am a conservative and a Catholic. I hold with my church and its views on sexual behavior, sexual sin, and the God-created complementary nature of the sexes.

I see the face of Christ in all people, but I believe in objective moral standards that do not bend to cultural trends....

Am I a bigot? Am I trash? Am I transphobic? Am I all the things that this Brandon guy has been called in this thread...?

I wouldn't call you trash but yes. Hiding behind faith doesn't make being a bigot ok.

 

[ShockingAlberto]

Can you hold traditional views on sexuality and gender norms and not be a bigot...? Is that possible...?

Honestly depends on your definition of traditional, but I'd probably say no.

Society is an ever-evolving thing, we're learning more about ourselves and each other than we've ever known before. Traditional here doesn't mean - we put the Christmas tree up a week before, we watch the game after dinner. Here it means, these people aren't who they say they are because my religion or my church or my book say they can't be and I won't listen to any evidence otherwise. That's not a good kind of traditional. Traditional once meant that black people weren't worth as much as white people, that they were monsters. Some people believe that traditional now means that women shouldn't show their faces in public or have to be accompanied by a male family member when leaving the house or that a husband has the right to rape his wife whenever he pleases.

And, well, it's not like you can't hold those views - you totally can! But you can't expect not to be judged for expressing them and you can't exert them on a changing world because you're not ready to change with it.

 

[Alucrid]

Not even remotely the same

it's a joke about the guy's position that vagina = woman, when lots of animals have vaginas

 

[Wereroku]

Why is it so hard for some people just accept what someone tells you? If one of my friends tells me they are a woman I would just say ok. They don't need a lecture on gender and sex they just want some consideration and respect.

 

[Sai-kun]

No, you've misunderstood me. I'm not saying that trans issues are less important (even though they inarguably affect less people). What I'm saying is that racial issues are an established social touchstone in western society that every child grows up aware of. Every kid who watches football sees 'No to racism' ads, or gets taught not to be racist in school etc, and then hears racist jokes behind the woodshed. No one grows up unaware of racism and that it's a bad thing - it's a pervasive thing in society.

Trans issues just aren't the same - most high school kids probably still don't know exactly what transgenderism is, or how common it is, or what the correct way to speak to a transgender person is. The awareness just isn't there. That's what I meant.



Of course we should act on it - by
a) Educating kids about transgender issues in high school
b) Ensuring that health care is covered under insurance
c) Ensuring hate crimes vs transgender people are properly criminalised
d) Ensuring mental health professionals are properly trained to deal with transgender people and their specific issues

But firing someone who's views are ignorant and not up to the speed of the liberal internet hive mind is not the way to do it.

why? why should trans people have to deal with any more shit than people of color or other queer people?

 

[Aikidoka]

Ugh, I hate it when people in the media are revealed to be assholes like this. I used to follow TB but then he kept making stupid rants about Anita.

Shame for The Escapist but luckily there are plenty of other sites to go to.

 

[NickFire]

Why?

You're the second person who cherry picked that part of a sentence to suggest I came in here asking not to discuss the issue, when I specifically said that is what I understand the man at issue's view. I'm able to admit I missed the second part of his tweets and gave the guy the benefit of the doubt when in fact he really was suggesting he should be allowed to discriminate. I hope you are able to admit you cherry picked a portion of a sentence to suggest I came in here to shit on the thread instead of participate.

 

[Krejlooc]

Can you hold traditional views on sexuality and gender norms and not be a bigot...? Is that possible...?



I am a conservative and a Catholic. I hold with my church and its views on sexual behavior, sexual sin, and the God-created complementary nature of the sexes.

I see the face of Christ in all people, but I believe in objective moral standards that do not bend to cultural trends....

Am I a bigot? Am I trash? Am I transphobic? Am I all the things that this Brandon guy has been called in this thread...?

The line of bigotry is when your outward actions begin to directly influence and admonish others. This isn't a thought-police situation. Obviously, this individual shouldn't have to preface all of his held beliefs with "In my opinion," but his behavior clearly crosses that line. You are free to believe whatever you want about sexuality, even if I believe it's flying in the face against an understanding of sexuality and gender that is becoming increasingly backed by science.

Running around telling people what sex you believe they are crosses a line. Refusing to be polite to individuals because you disagree with their held beliefs on sexuality is crossing a line. Referring to someone who wants to be called "she" as "he" is impolite. It's rude. There is social capitol in your actions.

I grew up catholic, I'm familiar with much of the dogma revolving around loving neighbors and not passing judgement on others. Purposefully referring to individuals against their wishes or constantly flying counter opinion in their face is not doing either. This guy is broadcasting his thoughts to twitter. Perhaps he doesn't understand the role of twitter? Because it's tantamount to him screaming his beliefs into a megaphone for all to hear.

Consider this - if you had a friend who constantly told you to refer to him by his middle name, would you consider telling him "No, your proper name is your first name and I will refer to you by that" to be rude? Would you display this sort of behavior to someone you respected and loved? These small signs of disrespect belie the claims that these people simply don't care about the matter, they appear to be contempt.

 

[TheAdmiester]

it's a joke about the guy's position that vagina = woman, when lots of animals have vaginas

It's pretty obvious that he means female in that regard, though. It's worded terribly but if what I said is indeed what he meant, I don't see much problem with it.