Considering you, and the guy you agree with, seem to be willfully unable to be specific about your beliefs that you're worried might get you labelled as bigoted, maybe you should try to alleviate some of these concerns by, I don't know, being specific about your thoughts rather than continuing to be vague?
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The Escapist hires on transphobic Brandon Morse
- Thread starter The Technomancer
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Considering you, and the guy you agree with, seem to be willfully unable to be specific about your beliefs that you're worried might get you labelled as bigoted, maybe you should try to alleviate some of these concerns by, I don't know, being specific about your thoughts rather than continuing to be vague?
i'm not sure what your being gay has to do with anything so
i have more than a handful of trans friends and let me tell you that it is the easiest thing in the fucking world to address them by their correct/preferred pronouns
it is SO easy holy shit
usernamechange
Member
It must be hard, being discriminated against by not being able to discriminate people. But hey, way to find a way to martyr yourself over not being able to say offensive, factually incorrect bullshit to peoples faces.
stump sock
Member
ShockingAlberto
Member
One day, I'll die. It makes sense for me to not walk into traffic to hasten it along.
Your traditional views are outdated and no longer moral. Society has changed, you haven't. That's fine if you want to be left behind, but don't blame us when we look at you funny for thinking the way you do.
Just because your religion hasn't caught up to reality doesn't mean reality doesn't keep chugging along.
I'm trans and I'll be honest. The thought of being thought of as an abomination in society and possibly murdered was almost enough to push me to that point. But, I got lucky, and happened to be born in a time where I can do something about it and things are getting better. People don't realize just how scary it is to see all of society as a possible enemy.
Ah, the "No-True Scotsman" fallacy - a classic.
and jim sterling. and extra credits. and basically everyone else talented.
man, they better pray this gg thing works out for them because they seem to have put all their eggs into this basket.
i'd rather just push these people out all-together. don't want misogynists, transphobes, homophobes playing games.
NickFire
Member
Techno you are throwing out stats, which have a very, very broad range, to argue what exactly? My quote pertains to my suggestion that the available studies (obviously the topic makes the kind of possible studies limited) and agreement among a group of professionals does not necessarily qualify as "science".
On hindsight, maybe you are suggesting the people who dont give credence to the stats you pointed out are being unreasonable. I'm not sure. If you are ok, it's a valid point. I'm sure if I wanted to play Devils advocate I could come up with counterpoints that go beyond the range of 40-70 being so wide it suggests the numbers are unreliable, but I really am finally playing a game now and sitting in a lobby as we speak, so I'm out for now.
Night everyone.
usernamechange
Member
I went to a Catholic school. My religion teacher, on a yearly basis, would bring in someome to discuss why homosexuality is factually and biblically wrong. When a gay kid wanted to bring his boyfriend to prom, he had to literally sue the school to let him. But yea, Catholics dont hate other people. Its just a coincidence that they always shit on LGBT folk.
the_batman
Banned
yeah but then you piss off your transphobic friends.
airmangataosenai
Member
Not defending these particular comments in the OP, but these comments seem pretty mild all things considered. Not accepting the transgender community's chosen definition of transgenderism doesn't make someone "Transphobic" or a bigot. He was a bit rude about it, but to suggest that this rises to the level of termination is pretty excessive. An apology should be enough, but it seems people here never accept that, even if it was sincere (See: Penny-Arcade).
i don't stay friends with transphobic people
edit: who wants to be friends with someone who's transphobic and not actively attempting to overcome it :/
boo fucking hoo
the_batman
Banned
how about how they are discriminated against as well?
BreezyLimbo
Banned
Man the Escapist has really gone down the gutter, haven't they? Or were they always in that gutter? I remember like 4-5 years ago I went on their to see Yahtzee. That's about it. I stopped doing that about 4 years ago.
What a shithole. And then they hire this guy. Now they're like...a bathroom toilet.
What a shithole. And then they hire this guy. Now they're like...a bathroom toilet.
Okay, look, you're a bigot, I don't want to argue with you about it, but can you at least not call your values "traditional"? What is "traditional," about being bigoted to trans people?
A Link to the Past
Banned
So what you're saying is that it's more important to value friends who get mad because you don't misgender someone than it is to respect people?
appaws
Banned
Yes. I'm familiar with this mode of argument. It is a very good strategy to set people outside the boundaries of a discussion.
I don't know about "religion," but I know that my religion does not do these things so don't conflate me with anyone else.
I am going to step out of this thread, just in the interest of not derailing it with a discussion of Catholic moral teachings. I am not trying to be a "drive-by" poster, or fleeing in fear of the dog-pile.
I like debating....I am an attorney!But I am going to let this channel get back to its regularly scheduled program of heaping collective scorn on the wrong-thinker.
This isn't just him keeping to himself. He makes post on Twitter, an open forum where thousands browse, voicing this. Also, please feel free to read the thread and check his other tweets; he wasn't just asking people to not say certain things around him.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
Pretty sure he's joking
Well all I can tell you is this. If you gave me the choice of hanging out with people at a bar that casually use the word "gay" as a insult in an oblivious manner and hanging out with people who are overly sensitive about that term and like to preach at others for using it, then I'd be hanging out with the former.
Your parsing of the phrase lifestyle choice only proves my point.
If you're honestly curious, send me a PM, and I'll take time later to dig up links to the studies that have been done.
And if we get past science, "belief" is an interesting thing. For example, I believe in God. I can't prove that God exists, but I believe that there is one, and I've had experiences throughout my life that cement that belief inside of me. If somebody comes at me challenging my belief in God, there's not a lot of proof I can offer up to show that my belief is justified.
In a weird way, being trans is similar to that. I know deep down inside of me that my gender is the opposite of the body I was born into, but how do I prove to you that that's true? I don't know that I can. All I can do is try to convince you that my feelings and beliefs are genuine.
Why do we sometimes accept belief on one side, and not the other? It's a problem I think "both sides" of life often struggle with.
Me too! But sometimes games don't let me. I've been a vocal opponent of the game Blue Estate, for example. I was just playing that game casually, and suddenly, there was a "joke" in the game that was hugely offense to people who are transgender. I didn't bring the trans topic to the game, the game did. And there are plenty of other examples of games having absolutely shitty trans representation. When that happens, I can't ignore it, because it's directly speaking to and about me.
In some games, I want social issues to be a big deal. In some games, I want them to be fit in if they can work in the narrative (I love Dragon Age Inquisition's inclusivity, for example). Other times, I'm playing games because I want to escape the world and its problems, not be reminded of them. We're not different on that.
In the same way that I wouldn't avoid expressing my personal beliefs.
I have no desire to force you to change your beliefs, so long as you're not using those beliefs to negatively affect the lives of others. Forcing people to try to change almost never works. I'd love to explain to you my side of the situation, but I don't know, so far, I have no reason to think I'd label you a bigot or other negative terms. Not everybody is going to agree with, understand, or accept trans peoplethat's just life. If you're willing to give me at least a humane level of dignity in our interactions, though, that's a big part of what I'm asking for. I don't share your religious views, but there's no call for me insulting or demeaning you for having those views. I'd then hope for the same in return.
Denying a trans person identity is sort of the foundation of transphobia. The fact he and others don't curb-stomp trans people on sight (and proudly profess they won't, how nice) doesn't make them beacons of tolerance.
stump sock
Member
me too. that stopped not long after a sermon that declared AIDS to be god's retribution against homosexuality
but hey, at least I can thank them for making me aware of, at a probably too-young age, the power of institutionalized bigotry.
Yeah, you were never interested in having a discussion in the first place.
Yes. I'm familiar with this mode of argument. It is a very good strategy to set people outside the boundaries of a discussion.
I don't know about "religion," but I know that my religion does not do these things so don't conflate me with anyone else.
I am going to step out of this thread, just in the interest of not derailing it with a discussion of Catholic moral teachings. I am not trying to be a "drive-by" poster, or fleeing in fear of the dog-pile.
But I am going to let this channel get back to its regularly scheduled program of heaping collective scorn on the wrong-thinker.
"I am a Catholic and Catholics teach that trans people are abominations"
"Btw this isn't about Religion used as shield for bigotry"
I've seen so many "let me guess, you're a straight white male?" posts in threads like these that it doesn't seem out of line for someone to feel it's relevant to preface their post with an acknowledgment of their being somewhat under-privileged, especially if they're posting something potentially controversial.
usernamechange
Member
Its incredible how much of an asshole you are that youve turned a guy actively saying how he should be able to say the n word, misgender people, and outright disbelieve the existence of trans people even with mounting evidence, into the wronged party. The ability for a catholic attorney in the west to just force himself to believe that he is a minority under threat is astonding.Yes. I'm familiar with this mode of argument. It is a very good strategy to set people outside the boundaries of a discussion.
I don't know about "religion," but I know that my religion does not do these things so don't conflate me with anyone else.
I am going to step out of this thread, just in the interest of not derailing it with a discussion of Catholic moral teachings. I am not trying to be a "drive-by" poster, or fleeing in fear of the dog-pile.
But I am going to let this channel get back to its regularly scheduled program of heaping collective scorn on the wrong-thinker.
"Tolerate my intolerance!!!!!"!
"BTW I am an attorney"
Was the gist of his argument.
That's exactly why I said it too. I kind of can't abide identity politics because i think someone' argument should be enough to stand on its own regardless of how they identify. But if someone is going to throw that stuff at me, I'd rather cut it off before it starts.
ShockingAlberto
Member
This is actually nicer than I was going to put it.
appaws
Banned
I'm not sure what you are quoting. The Catholic church does not teach that any people are "abominations." Nobody said anything like that at all.
Thank you for a calm and reasoned post. I wish you only the best fortune and happiness in your life, and the peace and grace of Christ.
I'm genuinely curious as to why you've ignored my posts :-\
I think this is a really good post. We're all different, and have different views and beliefs on a range of subjects, and in the case of beliefs they can be impossible to prove or justify. No matter what your beliefs, as long as you treat everyone kindly and with respect as a human being and try to improve the world for the people in it then you're okay by me. And in terms of changing minds, I think calm, rational arguments (like yours!) and education are usually the best way to go about it.
Necromanti
Member
Good luck with that. That wouldn't do much to improve the treatment towards the affected groups in question, either.
It's kind of hard not to when the term is often used by people equating a sexual orientation to a lifestyle, when...it isn't one.
As a gay person, I can't understand how YOU can't understand that what a person thinks/feels about your "lifestyle" determines how they vote for/against you. If someone thinks gay people aren't bad, they aren't going to care if you get married.
If, on the other hand, your Mormon, well, then you'll spend millions (billions? I can't remember) of dollars to make sure they fight tooth and nail for you to not get married. In one state. These people are the ones who vote. These people are the ones that determine if you CAN live your life the way you want.
Being gay is a huge fucking chunk of someone's life, JUST LIKE being straight is. Does being gay mean you'll love Cher, Bette Midler and Madonna? No. But you know what it will do? Determine who the fuck you want to spend the rest of your life with. Who the fuck you love, and who the fuck you fuck even. It determines your tax status and tax breaks, it determines whether you get time off for spousal illness/health, hell it determines whether or not you can share insurance with that person. If you think that being gay has little to do with your life, you obviously haven't lived very long.
You say that you want to just agree to disagree but that's not how life works. Sorry kid.
Being with the person you hope to spend the rest of your life with is a huge chunk of your life, period. I challenge anyone to change my mind on that.
ShockingAlberto
Member
Catholicism may not be about picking and choosing, but faulty arguing is!
Here's the thing: it is up to the individual reader which website they are willing to support. If you believe Brandon Morse's content to be good and don't care about these particular views, go ahead, I guess.
But that also applies the other way. To me, these views are repugnant and backwards, and even if they are never once even uttered in anything he writes for The Escapist, just knowing he believes such shitty things means I don't want to support him or the site he writes for.
Whether or not it was right for The Escapist to take him on... it's their prerogative. If it was my choice, I would have said no. Gaming should be inclusive and this is deeply excluding to transpeople. There is a difference between provocative and challenging opinions and flat out transphobia, and from what I see, Brandon Morse only contributes transphobia. There's no way The Escapist didn't have some idea of his character before hiring him, and this meant they chose to overlook or even indulge in those ideas by hiring him, which is something I find... pretty unforgivable. Any audience members they lose from this is entirely on their head.
But that also applies the other way. To me, these views are repugnant and backwards, and even if they are never once even uttered in anything he writes for The Escapist, just knowing he believes such shitty things means I don't want to support him or the site he writes for.
Whether or not it was right for The Escapist to take him on... it's their prerogative. If it was my choice, I would have said no. Gaming should be inclusive and this is deeply excluding to transpeople. There is a difference between provocative and challenging opinions and flat out transphobia, and from what I see, Brandon Morse only contributes transphobia. There's no way The Escapist didn't have some idea of his character before hiring him, and this meant they chose to overlook or even indulge in those ideas by hiring him, which is something I find... pretty unforgivable. Any audience members they lose from this is entirely on their head.
http://www.neogaf.com/forum/showthread.php?t=995420
I guess being compared to nuclear weapons in the 'order of the creation' isn't being called an abomination.
The Technomancer
card-carrying scientician
I mean, this is really why I made this thread. The discussion thats been here is a nice bonus, but the primary reason I did was because I know this is the kind of issue that would cause people to not want to support the site, and I thought they should know.
NoblesseOblige
Banned
Obviously the pope isn't a "true Catholic". Duh.
i disagree. it would make the games industry a far less shittier place to work for these people, and gaming as a hobby far less hostile and unappealing.
it'd be great. i bet we'd get less boring games, too!
And I actually appreciate it. Me and some very close friends used to be frequent forum posters there a few years ago. I met some close friends and my boyfriend there, so it's a place I have some nostalgic fondness for. Plus, the content used to be top notch.
Now, we've all abandoned the place. The forums became hostile and the content schedule a complete God damn mess. This is the final nail in a coffin for us and thanks for letting me know.
the_batman
Banned
when did i say that? what i'm saying is that people shouldn't worry so much about what other people think of them.
umm, wtf? how can you be so obsessed about supporting one group of people who are born a certain way while not giving a fuck about another group born a certain way?
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