Support NeoGAF

[Coreda]

I've never understood the principle of not supporting a game you want to play, because it uses a DRM that might possibly mean you can't play the game a decade down the line. Either scenario sees you not playing a game you want to, by my calculation.

I'm not that fussed about it but what I abhor is Steam's forced updates. Screw that to high heaven. I want to play the game when I click play, not wait around for a multi-gigabyte update to install just to have the privilege to play a game that was working fine yesterday.

Forced updates can FOADIAF. If I had a clean DRM-free copy of the game that wouldn't be an issue.

 

[Mivey]

I've never understood the principle of not supporting a game you want to play, because it uses a DRM that might possibly mean you can't play the game a decade down the line. Either scenario sees you not playing a game you want to, by my calculation.

If you reduce everything to consumerism, you are right. If we except that there is more going on ideologically then just consuming things, it is absolutely valid if someone refuses to support practices that they abhor, even at the cost of missing something. It's about the individual first and foremost, not about actually forcing change. That can only happen if enough people do this.

 

[jrcbandit]

Well these arguments could go by the wayside if only more publishers removed server-reliant copy protection say 2-3 years after release of the game. Then there would be no more preservation talk ;p. Haven't all the Denuvo cracks so far just been bypasses which make them useless for preservation purposes?

I do really like the idea of Denuvo which means pretty much absolutely 0 piracy for the first month or 2 until a bypass is made. Some of my friends who are casual pirates will actually buy all their PC games if they aren't cracked within the first 1-2 days, but if they are cracked they usually try the lame excuse of I'm just trying the game on my PC to see how it runs and then I'll buy it, I promise! Of course they don't, yet they also own $500+ video cards....

In any case, while Denuvo really helps with initial sales, I am still a bit worried about it never being removed unless some plan is put into place for when their servers are finally taken down.

 

[SeeNoWeevil]

This forum is surprisingly pro piracy. Not a good look.

 

[Aressa]

Is it wrong if a group of hackers hacked all Denuvo games so far and not release the crack just to make sure when Denuvo goes down we don't lose those games forever?

 

[CecilRousso]

Well these arguments could go by the wayside if only more publishers removed server-reliant copy protection say 2-3 years after release of the game.

More publishers? Does any publisher actually do that?

This forum is surprisingly pro piracy.

Or maybe just anti drm.

 

[Gamer @ Heart]

This forum is surprisingly pro piracy. Not a good look.

No it isn't, what are you talking about. A few users trying to argue their hopeless case of piracy disguised as preservation does not represent the whole forum. Any links or sharing of actual piracy is bannable and removed. Just because they don't censor the topic of piracy doesn't make it pro.

 

[Truant]

Not gonna lie, I used to pirate pretty much all PC games back in the day. Steam changed all that.

It was never about money or anything like that. The only reason we pirated was because that was the fastest and easiest way of getting the games. I remember Max Payne 2 being available to download on IRC/DCC weeks before you could buy it in stores in Norway. The same for Doom 3. We just wanted to get our hands on the games as fast as possible, and that just happened to be pirating.

I also didn't quite understand that this affected developers. I've actually gone and bought some stuff that I remember pirating back in the day, over ten years ago. Doom 3 and Far Cry, for example. I don't see any way you can justify piracy if you have the money, although I understand the argument for preservation and future compatibility.

 

[ghostjoke]

I've never understood the principle of not supporting a game you want to play, because it uses a DRM that might possibly mean you can't play the game a decade down the line. Either scenario sees you not playing a game you want to, by my calculation.

Either way, you are naive if you think game developers are going to care about a few people making a stand in this way, in comparison with safe-guarding the launch sales period, which Denuvo (still) allows them to do.

The statement is a tertiary thing for me - preservation of a game at its peak is secondary, ease of access is primary (because I'm selfish). I know right well that not giving a game my money could be for a dozen things in a developer's eye if they even knew of my lost sale in the first place. The two hours I spent on support with EA over Dragon Age: Inquisition only for it to work when I applied a crack broke me. I literally just sat there for a minute manically laughing at the absurdity of what had just happened. I just can't anymore. I'm tired. I just want to play games. I'm going to minimise every potential risk. This isn't some grandiose statement, it's a beaten down twenty-something-year-old, teenager in the 00s, who just wants to play games when I have the time. And there are plenty of other games to play with no DRM fuck up risks attached.

Even if they just had strict DRM for say a year (and they didn't MGSV it with patches), I'd be okay, not thrilled but okay. I'd wait and happy that I could just play my games whenever I chose without issues down the line.

And once again, I don't believe this PARTICULAR crack, really a bypass, is a good thing for legal uses.

 

[Tecnniqe]

Because...?

This study also includes software and games:

‘Worst’ File-Sharing Pirates Spend 300% More on Content Than ‘Honest’ Consumers





Disclaimer: I actually don't pirate. I just appreciate facts more than FUD.

Simply because a song is a few MB and you can play it instantly while games are 50GB+ now and requires tweaking and outside fixes.

However if I'm wrong then I'm more than happy to say so, and it is quite interesting.

This forum is surprisingly pro piracy. Not a good look.

Pro piracy? Or anti-DRM?

Not gonna lie, I used to pirate pretty much all PC games back in the day. Steam changed all that.

It was never about money or anything like that. The only reason we pirated was because that was the fastest and easiest way of getting the games. I remember Max Payne 2 being available to download on IRC/DCC weeks before you could buy it in stores in Norway. The same for Doom 3. We just wanted to get our hands on the games as fast as possible, and that just happened to be pirating.

I also didn't quite understand that this affected developers. I've actually gone and bought some stuff that I remember pirating back in the day, over ten years ago. Doom 3 and Far Cry, for example. I don't see any way you can justify piracy if you have the money, although I understand the argument for preservation and future compatibility.

Usually pirates don't struggle with money to purchase the game (some do, of course) but its about the services that you require to use them (I would think).

If the service is harder to use than pirate them, people will look to piracy.
You need to offer a better service and easier to use and that don't inconvenience you more than pirating it. Which is why I don't understand things like non WW releases in this digital age, because you can bet your ass someone will pirate it to get it sooner.
While that initial piracy might be combated with DRM, DRM alone causes issues down the line for those who did purchase it.

 

[test_account]

because i like these kind of things, the war between good and evil, modern robin hood that want to share to poor people and evil company that, of course, don't want you can play their games free, even if you can't buy these games, because you don't have money.

it's fun !

Robin Hood isnt about bringing luxury and entertainment items to people. And if you can afford a computer to play these games, your not really poor in that sense.

 

[Fishook]

My biggest bug bear is you cannot transfer the license of game to another person. I am lucky enough to afford to own a high end pc and I buy most of my games within the first week of release.

I have loads of games I have no desire to play again (I only play games through once on average) I just want to give them to my Nephew's and Friend's son to get some enjoyment out them. My mates son was thrilled when I gave him a spare copy of Doom this week.

I understand why people pirate games, especially the younger generation, and such, But if you can just transfer a games after 6-12 months after release and to somebody who has been on you friends list for a year, would cut piracy down a lot especially the younger generation.

 

[Budi]

It's interesting, the government actually does pay for a lot of social programs that aren't as essential as food. Would it be so wrong for those who are less fortunate to be provided some means of entertainment. For them to allowed to, I don't know - play a video game once in awhile. Would it, be so wrong for Sony, or MS, or Steam to send out PS4's, gaming ready PC's and Steam pre-paid cards to those less fortunate around the world? Really, I guess I'm not making the argument in regards to piracy in poor social circles, but rather the importance of getting games in the hands of as many people as possible. Even to those who can't afford it.

This topic made me also think something like that. Except my mind didn't go to PS4:s and High end pc:s. It would be great if there were charity organizations to help the less fortunate enjoy gaming too. I work at the local recycling centre and people have brought us even something as new as Ps3:s. We don't pay anything for the stuff that people bring but we sell them forward in really low prices. So as some people are willing to part from their hardware and games for free, it would be great if there were groups dedicated to get old hardware and games to the hands of less fortunate people. Even I gave my orginal Xbox away for free. It's much better for people struggling with income to get older hardware so they can more easily expand their gaming library on their own too. I don't think anyone actually struggling would spit on something like PS2 or Gamecube and instead demand to get a beefy PC and Deus Ex preorder to go with that. Also the online requirement could be quite tricky for many low income households, they would need physical copies not steam gift cards. If these cracking groups were actually doing what they do to help the less fortunate ones, creating bypasses and cracks isn't the best way to go. And directly gifting people hardware with games isn't the only thing that should be done. Also creating some kind of gaming spots with multiple consoles would be great, where people could come and play together.

Lol wut. Witcher 3 sold enormously well. Its the most sucessful CDPR game ever. It handily beat down their previous game that released with shitty ass Securom. I dont think releasing with Denuvo would magically sell a whole lot more or make "US-made Witcher 3 with Debuvo" a single bit more viable.
Go check the sales of Denuvo protected games. Guess what, they havent magically increased notably in sales in the skightest. Furthermore, read CDPR statements on DRM.

Witcher 2 released DRM free on GOG though, retail version had Securom that is true.

 

[Parsnip]

Another bypass? Couldn't care less.

 

[Iztok Mravlja]

I've never understood the principle of not supporting a game you want to play, because it uses a DRM that might possibly mean you can't play the game a decade down the line. Either scenario sees you not playing a game you want to, by my calculation.

Either way, you are naive if you think game developers are going to care about a few people making a stand in this way, in comparison with safe-guarding the launch sales period, which Denuvo (still) allows them to do.

I support the game at release *AND* I want to be able to play in the future.
And of course devs won't cater to this, that's why crackers are so valuable.

I actually don't mind if it takes them years to crack games, well beyond the commercial lifespan of a game (to maximise it's sales). In fact I'd prefer it.

 

[Panajev2001a]

This topic made me also think something like that. Except my mind didn't go to PS4:s and High end pc:s. It would be great if there were charity organizations to help the less fortunate enjoy gaming too. I work at the local recycling centre and people have brought us even something as new as Ps3:s. We don't pay anything for the stuff that people bring but we sell them forward in really low prices. So as some people are willing to part from their hardware and games for free, it would be great if there were groups dedicated to get old hardware and games to the hands of less fortunate people. Even I gave my orginal Xbox away for free. It's much better for people struggling with income to get older hardware so they can more easily expand their gaming library on their own too. I don't think anyone actually struggling would spit on something like PS2 or Gamecube and instead demand to get a beefy PC and Deus Ex preorder to go with that. Also the online requirement could be quite tricky for many low income households, they would need physical copies not steam gift cards. If these cracking groups were actually doing what they do to help the less fortunate ones, creating bypasses and cracks isn't the best way to go. And directly gifting people hardware with games isn't the only thing that should be done. Also creating some kind of gaming spots with multiple consoles would be great, where people could come and play together.



Witcher 2 released DRM free on GOG though, retail version had Securom that is true.

The beauty with a starter PC is that it can also be used to help improve computer and internet literacy of people.

 

[SeeNoWeevil]

No it isn't, what are you talking about. A few users trying to argue their hopeless case of piracy disguised as preservation does not represent the whole forum. Any links or sharing of actual piracy is bannable and removed. Just because they don't censor the topic of piracy doesn't make it pro.

I don't agree at all. People might not directly share piracy related stuff, but the opinions of many here are most definitely pro piracy/software isn't worth paying for. It may be sugar-coated at times but it's definitely there.

 

[DSix]

This forum is surprisingly pro piracy. Not a good look.

Yes. I did not know these people could openly advocate piracy and recognize that they still pirate today, with a shitty attitude against developers to boot. I wasn't aware that the forum was welcoming to pirates who publicly show they wont support developers. I guess I was wrong.

Furthermore, this doom crack is nothing more than a bypass for piracy. It doesn't do DRM removal for future preservation.

 

[DieH@rd]

Dunno if old, but Voksi has just released crack for playing Rise of the Tomb Raider.

Same technique, Steam is used to generate "legit tickets" that Denuvo is accepting, and the game launches and can be played fully.

 

[petran79]

This forum is surprisingly pro piracy. Not a good look.

When companies such as Microsoft get so benevolent, gifting a free copy of Windows 10 even to pirate versions, there is room for GAF too.

 

[Teletraan1]

I remember playing both quake and doom on Linux back in the day, strange this doesn't have a Linux version native since it can use both OPENGL and Vulkan. It runs in WINE perfectly from what I hear.

 

[Rellik]

Another bypass? Couldn't care less.

Yep so it does nothing for "preservation". This is just for piracy.

 

[DieH@rd]

This is just for piracy.

And maybe mods.

As for preservation, I don't agree. I believe that only games that don't rely on external things can truly be preserved, and these cracks allow that.

 

[Teletraan1]

This forum is surprisingly pro piracy. Not a good look.

So pro that they banned the person who made the OP for including a link to piracy. There are definitely pirates on GAF but baseless accusations are not a good look either.

 

[Durante]

Another bypass? Couldn't care less.

Yeah, too bad :/

 

[Real_Madrid]

This forum is surprisingly pro piracy. Not a good look.

Jup, but let's face it. This forum has lots of threads about emulation etc. That's all piracy if we're being honest. Of course are all the people on here using emulation for games they own and are all the anti-DRM people interested in piracy to remove DRM.

The mods should have more strict rules about piracy imo. There are other forums enough where you can talk about it without having to say lots of excuses nobody really believes.

 

[test_account]

So pro that they banned the person who made the OP for including a link to piracy. There are definitely pirates on GAF but baseless accusations are not a good look either.

Just as a note regarding the OP, i dont think he got banned for that. A mod already responded in the thread after the OP removed the link, and he didnt get banned then. I think its rather due to some of the comments regarding piracy that he made later on that got him banned.

 

[SeeNoWeevil]

So pro that they banned the person who made the OP for including a link to piracy. There are definitely pirates on GAF but baseless accusations are not a good look either.

I'm not saying the mods/owners are pro piracy. I'm referring to the posters here. I probably wouldn't be specific to piracy, but more of a pro not paying for stuff/software development deserves little reward/I'm not going to give developers the courtesy of paying the price they ask/use every loophole to screw creators out of money etc. etc.

If you're of the 'pay the price or don't play it' attitude, you'll probably get called out as a corporate shill before long.

 

[Durante]

Jup, but let's face it. This forum has lots of threads about emulation etc. That's all piracy if we're being honest.

Actually, no, that's not called being honest, that's called being dishonest. Implying that emulation necessitates copyright infringement is simply wrong.

 

[Shari]

Jup, but let's face it. This forum has lots of threads about emulation etc. That's all piracy if we're being honest. Of course are all the people on here using emulation for games they own and are all the anti-DRM people interested in piracy to remove DRM.

The mods should have more strict rules about piracy imo. There are other forums enough where you can talk about it without having to say lots of excuses nobody really believes.

If you feel so enraged about people telling or not telling the truth that you feel the need to forbid discussion then you are the one who should look for other forums.

 

[Real_Madrid]

Actually, no, that's not called being honest, that's called being dishonest. Implying that emulation necessitates copyright infringement is simply wrong.

I'm pretty sure that almost all the emulation used for gaming is using piracy. Yes, there's legal emulation, but that's just like saying that someone has utorrent installed for legal torrents.
It can be, but it's almost never the case and that's being honest.

 

[Tecnniqe]

Jup, but let's face it. This forum has lots of threads about emulation etc. That's all piracy if we're being honest. Of course are all the people on here using emulation for games they own and are all the anti-DRM people interested in piracy to remove DRM.

The mods should have more strict rules about piracy imo. There are other forums enough where you can talk about it without having to say lots of excuses nobody really believes.

You can be as snarky about pro-piracy = anti-DRM all you want, but one is for people who either cant or wont purchase something and the other side is fighting for being able to use their product without intrusive measures even 5+ years down the line.

There are rules in place (OP), but saying that any discussion about DRM and cracking it should be banned because you think everyone who wants cracks are pirates is, frankly, bullshit.

 

[mcrommert]

Actually, no, that's not called being honest, that's called being dishonest. Implying that emulation necessitates copyright infringement is simply wrong.

Your right it doesn't necessitate, but the amount of people doing a rom dump from a cartridge is miniscule

 

[Shari]

I'm pretty sure that almost all the emulation used for gaming is using piracy. Yes, there's legal emulation, but that's just like saying that someone has utorrent installed for legal torrents.
It can be, but it's almost never the case and that's being honest.

That's FUD and based entirely on your own imagination. Provide proof or stay quiet.

If you like this kind of non-fact discussion turn yourself to religion, please and thank you.

 

[Durante]

I'm pretty sure that almost all the emulation used for gaming is using piracy. Yes, there's legal emulation, but that's just like saying that someone has utorrent installed for legal torrents.
It can be, but it's almost never the case and that's being honest.

Now it's "almost all" while previously it was "all". I'll leave the argument at that, since unlike "all" it's not really a statement which can be easily proven or disproved.

 

[Lothars]

This forum is surprisingly pro piracy. Not a good look.

Thats not true at all, show us proof of this

No it isn't, what are you talking about. A few users trying to argue their hopeless case of piracy disguised as preservation does not represent the whole forum. Any links or sharing of actual piracy is bannable and removed. Just because they don't censor the topic of piracy doesn't make it pro.

preservation is completely valid. I don't have an issue with DRM to a.point since its really useful for initial sales but wish publishers would look at removing it at a point in the future.

 

[Real_Madrid]

If you feel so enraged about people telling or not telling the truth that you feel the need to forbid discussion then you are the one who should look for other forums.

This is just a thread advocating for piracy and letting people know they can pirate a game and even linking to the crack in OP before he edited it.
Pretty subtle.

 

[Real_Madrid]

Now it's "almost all" while previously it was "all". I'll leave the argument at that, since unlike "all" it's not really a statement which can be easily proven or disproved.

Read my first reply you quoted, I even gave an example for legal emulation.

 

[Teletraan1]

Just as a note regarding the OP, i dont think he got banned for that. A mod already responded in the thread after the OP removed the link, and he didnt get banned then. I think its rather due to some of the comments regarding piracy that he made later on that got him banned.

My mistake then. Sorry.

 

[xJavonta]

Of course you are. Your entire argument rests on the premise that paying for video games should be optional, and should be viewed as being approached on a case-by-case basis, where those who cannot afford to purchase Far Cry 4 should not be considered pirates, and to do so is a bizarre kind of class warfare, with cold, unfeeling publishers terrorizing the innocent pleasures of an impoverished underclass.

You believe that Ubisoft are behaving in an amoral fashion if they attempt to lock down their PC software, because 'one's ability to have some entertainment in their life is crucial'. This is an absolutely ridiculous argument for you to make.

The reality is that both of these idiotic arguments - yours, regarding the need for socialised video games and those regarding 'preservation' - do nothing other than legitimising the piracy that has ravaged AAA PC development.

Just tell the truth. People love the fact that Doom can now be pirated because not paying for shit is awesome. Trying to cloak that basic truth in these preposterous, convoluted arguments is just embarrassing.

Must be nice to be so privileged that everything is black and white.

Look. What they're saying is that piracy, while not a good thing, isn't the end all be all of games. If some poverty stricken kid decides to illegally download a game s/he couldn't buy in the first place, then we shouldn't throw the book at them. Stop acting like piracy prevents sales. It doesn't.

Steam has proven this. Netflix has proven this. Spotify has proven this. It's about quality of service.

 

[Shari]

This is just a thread advocating for piracy and letting people know they can pirate a game and even linking to the crack in OP before he edited it.
Pretty subtle.

Here, have a look at my subtle advocacy of piracy.

That's one of my lists, the other one I manage is my ignored users one. That's subtle.

 

[Tecnniqe]

This is just a thread advocating for piracy and letting people know they can pirate a game and even linking to the crack in OP before he edited it.
Pretty subtle.

You clearly have not read the thread or seen OPs current status.

Read my first reply you quoted, I even gave an example for legal emulation.

That's all piracy if we're being honest.

I'm pretty sure that almost all the emulation used for gaming is using piracy.

His point still stands.

 

[Ron Mexico]

Out of the whole thread, I think I have 2 relevant takeaways:

1-- CDPR is bold. Releasing DRM free is as much about making a statement as anything. I appreciate the boldness.

2-- DRM with an expiration date is an interesting idea. As it stands now, I'm not particularly troubled by DRM. I have a full-time job. I have a mortgage. I have a reliable internet connection. I have the expendable income to buy what I like. Yes, I know that makes me more fortunate than some. That said, I'm also in my 30s with a fondness of the games I grew up with. I've been able to dump my old cartridges (which is actually fairly simple tbh), etc but I would be annoyed if there was something else (in this case a DRM-like issue) blocking me. That said, it hasn't been an issue now so I'll cross that bridge if/when I get to it.

 

[Movalpolos]

Yep. I've double dipped on it, PC and PS4. The game was that good.

Same here.
Also, fuck piracy.

 

[holygeesus]

That's FUD and based entirely on your own imagination. Provide proof or stay quiet.

If you like this kind of non-fact discussion turn yourself to religion, please and thank you.

Do people really use emulators to play games they already own then? Genuine question as I have no interest in them, so have no idea what the scene surrounding them is like. I can't see people who played Super Mario Brothers 25 years ago, really wanting to play the game again on their PC though, or at least the number of people doing so, dwarfed by people playing Neo Geo games that they could no way afford when they came out, but that is speculation on my part, as you correctly pointed out.

 

[hendersonhank]

Yes. My work is being taken when it should be paid for. My artist's work is being taken when it should be paid for. My musician's work is being taken when it should be paid for.4

Again, none of that stuff was "taken", because a key component of "taking" something from someone is that that original owner no longer has it themselves.

And, yes, semantics is the argument. Piracy is stealing someone else's work. It's not paying for it when you should be paying for it.

I agree that piracy is "not paying for software when you should be paying for it". Where we disagree is that that is synonymous with stealing. I'm saying they are different offenses.

 

[Shari]

Do people really use emulators to play games they already own then? Genuine question as I have no interest in them, so have no idea what the scene surrounding them is like. I can't see people who played Super Mario Brothers 25 years ago, really wanting to play the game again on their PC though, or at least the number of people doing so, dwarfed by people playing Neo Geo games that they could no way afford when they came out, but that is speculation on my part, as you correctly pointed out.

Of course they do. I for one do that and its not even a matter of having nicer graphics or resolution like could be dolphin's case, in my case is more about convenience and being able to play my games on PC where all the rest of my gaming software is.

I think its clear for everyone that this can be used for piracy, but saying that the ones who like to hold conversation about it are pirates is stupid and arguing that on a videogame forum where their users spend a good chunk of their disposable income in videogames is ridiculous.

 

[Durante]

Do people really use emulators to play games they already own then?

Absolutely. In particular on second-gen 3D systems (e.g. PS2 or GC) the difference in image quality that you get from good emulation compared to the original system is incredibly stark. For older systems like SNES it's far more convenient than trying to hook up a physical one (I still have it somewhere in a box in the basement), adds features such as save states and suspend/resume, and looks a lot better on modern displays with some good CRT emulation.

 

[StereoVsn]

I support the game at release *AND* I want to be able to play in the future.
And of course devs won't cater to this, that's why crackers are so valuable.

I actually don't mind if it takes them years to crack games, well beyond the commercial lifespan of a game (to maximise it's sales). In fact I'd prefer it.

I'd prefer if Pubs themselves pulled DRM (or at least hard DRM beyond base Steam) after couple of years. That way majority of sales are done and price is at the point vast majority of rest of people would just buy from Steam/Origin/UPlay/etc.

That's not going to happen though so I do hope game cracks exist. The issue is that crackers target new games and not older ones normally.

 

[StereoVsn]

Absolutely. In particular on second-gen 3D systems (e.g. PS2 or GC) the difference in image quality that you get from good emulation compared to the original system is incredibly stark. For older systems like SNES it's far more convenient than trying to hook up a physical one (I still have it somewhere in a box in the basement), adds features such as save states and suspend/resume, and looks a lot better on modern displays with some good CRT emulation.

Yeah, having a PC hooked up through HDMI vs half a dozen consoles is much more convinient plus when Dolphin/PCSX2 work it's a thing of beauty. Xenoblade is one great example where graphics are day and night between Dolphin and Wii/WiiU.