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[Lord of Ostia]

I am absolutely positive you could find 15 women people from major gaming press to be jurors.

Hell, IGN and Gamespot alone could probably provide 10

Sorry, I didn't mean that there aren't many women who work at those sites. The assumption is that the people chosen to judge are usually the most prominent editors with the highest positions though, correct? What I mean is that the people who run these sites or have the top positions are all men, not that they don't have female staff. This is a huge problem, and a problem bigger than the game awards. That's what I meant.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

The split need not be 50/50 but for god sakes how the fuck does the panel consist of a whopping 2 women? And yes having a diversity of genders is important. It is completely influencial in how women will view the gaming industry in the future and if you want to grow the medium it would be fucking ridiculous to ignore 50% of the population.

 

[jwk94]

If they're qualified critics, I see little issue. There could be 32 women and that would be fine.

Agreed but I'm surprised they don't at least have Keza McDonald on there. Otherwise I don't know any other female journalists.

 

[LewieP]

Okay seriously? I think thats a bit much. Gender should have nothing to do with this. They chose who they felt was the most qualified. Thats not to say there arent really great women games journalists. But something tells me this was chance coincedence rather than some attack.

I ascribed no malicious intent, merely commented on the outcome.

 

[Kolx]

Can't see the problem if this was based on qualification.

 

[GamerJM]

This in a nutshell.

It's not that the selection for this award ceremony was slanted, it's that the industry itself is inherently slanted and that makes it difficult. Most of the big names of women in games journo land are freelancers and have no permanent home.

I mean....I think I'd normally agree with this, but that's a pretty damn slanted statistic. If it was something more like 75%/25% or 60%/40% sure, but when it's 93% I feel like the Game Awards staff could have made a better effort to promote diversity along with the rest of the industry.

 

[Neiteio]

I think diversity is useful on a panel evaluating a piece of art. The more people you have from different walks of life (gender, race, sexuality, class, lifestyle), the more thoroughly you can examine how a piece of art resonates with humanity as a whole.

At the same time, the jurors should be thoroughly qualified based on actual merit. No one should be selected simply because they are one thing or another.

But like Finale Fireworker said, this imbalance is probably indicative of a larger problem in the industry, where women generally don't feel welcome due to hate groups, shallow depictions, etc. This results in fewer of them joining the enthusiast press.

This doesn't seem to be anything malicious on the part of the Game Awards. It appears the individual outlets nominate their representatives (Polygon chose to have a woman, after all). So if anything, the burden is on the outlets to promote diversity (and hopefully in a way where the talent is also there).

 

[bananafactory]

Sorry, I didn't mean that there aren't many women who work at those sites. The assumption is that the people chosen to judge are usually the most prominent editors with the highest positions though, correct? What I mean is that the people who run these sites or have the top positions are all men, not that they don't have female staff. This is a huge problem, and a problem bigger than the game awards. That's what I meant.

Oh yeah, definitely. I'm not saying TGA or Geoff are to blame.

I just think there should maybe be a bit more of a collaborative effort between the publications and TGA to at least try to achieve some diversity.

 

[KurtSloane]

Why lessen the potential quality of judges by having to acheive an arbitrary mix of gender and colour?

If the judges are reflective of the industry (as it should be, why would it reflect society) then it is an industry created by and dominated by white men. Most of the high profile and successful members of the industry are white males.


Should Olympic or dance competitions for example meet a quota or should it be comprised of the most qualified?

It's obvious which is the important.


Shoehorning societal issues into and onto everything is a poor method of operation.

 

[Mechazawa]

If this is an issue with the publications putting up more female voices rather than the Game Award picking individuals, then I would question why Keith Stuart doesn't get a female peer to vote in his place.

 

[inky]

I see a lot of people saying "if they are qualified critics I don't see the problem", but I wonder, don't you see the problem that the sites don't have or consider having more qualified women to present themselves?

It's not a black and white issue (no race related pun intended) but lack of diversity in any medium IS a problem. I don't give a shit about the awards, but I care about what this says of the show, the industry and the publications. There must be qualified women out there... where are they?

 

[jmood88]

You don't think it's worth looking at why this body is NINETY THREE PERCENT MALE when both the general population and the game playing population look absolutely nothing like that?

Demographics only matter when you're using them to justify why certain groups are excluded.

 

[diaspora]

Having women on the panel simply because they are women is only a problem if you can't find enough women who know video games.

You can find 16 women who know games easily enough.

Forcing a 50/50 split will never be a problem.

This. As if finding 16 women to judge games is somehow difficult. Best part is the "as long as they're qualified". Qualified? To judge games at TGAs? That's a wide fuckin net.

 

[Lord of Ostia]

Agreed but I'm surprised they don't at least have Keza McDonald on there. Otherwise I don't know any other female journalists.

That's a good point, Keza is very qualified and honestly perfect for this kind of event. Makes you wonder why she wasn't picked. Guess it's possible she was either busy or didn't have an interest, but still she'd be a great pick.

 

[Htown]

Okay seriously? I think thats a bit much. Gender should have nothing to do with this. They chose who they felt was the most qualified. Thats not to say there arent really great women games journalists. But something tells me this was chance coincedence rather than some attack.

"Gender should have nothing to do with this".

Game players are 45 percent female, 55 percent male.

This jury is 7 percent female, 93 percent male.

There is a problem somewhere.

 

[Zomba13]

I'm assuming Keighley just selected the sites and let them decide who to send.

Edit: Yeah, looking at Polygon's note they selected their own person.

If that is the way it is done (I'm guessing with Giant Bomb Jeff just does it because he does the E3 judging stuff) then this is less the fault of Geoff and The Game Awards and more the fault of the publications nominating a male member. Unless Geoff/TGA picks the judges himself then it's hard to get a good split of male/female. You can't really say "pick someone to be a judge but maybe pick a woman because there are a lot of men here but the choice is totally yours but really though pick a woman" when asking people to pick a judge from their outlet.

I think it's that most outlets either don't have female staff or the male staffer picked is more qualified/has more experience in the field (like being judges for other awards shows and events) so they go with them. Like Jeff is the head of Giant Bomb, he does the E3 judging, he's super experienced in all this so of course he'd be the one to judge this. That just feeds into the problem though that most of the veterans at these sites are men and they are the obvious choice because of being here so long and doing this stuff so much.

 

[Salex_]

Having women on the panel simply because they are women is only a problem if you can't find enough women who know video games.

You can find 16 women who know games easily enough.

Forcing a 50/50 split will never be a problem.

Why are you stopping at gender? If you're going to go that route, then force a split in sexuality and race as well.

 

[RavenSan]

You really think that men are just so much more qualified to talk about video games than women that a panel of qualified people would just naturally be 93% male?

Come on.

Wait a sec, I think there SHOULD be more female reviewers out there. But not to fill some quota, but because I actually want to see the differences of opinion. I don't like the idea of "Half of them are women solely because they're women"

 

[Quonny]

The outlets choose their representatives it seems.

These outlets are generally headed by men and the longest members are most usually male. Female journalism has seen a surge, but it is recent in terms of the industry. It's not surprising that when an outlet is looking for someone to represent them that they choose a senior member, which, as established, is most likely a dude.

That's the issue.

 

[jeffers]

This. As if finding 16 women to judge games is somehow difficult. Best part is the "as long as they're qualified". Qualified? To judge games at TGAs? That's a wide fuckin net.

Yeah this is an issue that needs attention to. (also wheres Eurogamer? Aoife would be a good candidate)

Even if its not keighleys fault, hes in the best position to fix it.

 

[Lord of Ostia]

Oh yeah, definitely. I'm not saying TGA or Geoff are to blame.

I just think there should maybe be a bit more of a collaborative effort between the publications and TGA to at least try to achieve some diversity.

You make a good point, maybe now that there has been outcry about it they will make an effort to have more diversity. That would be the best outcome from this.

 

[Mihael Mello Keehl]

They're all white? lol yet geoff running around going to kanye west concerts and shit

 

[Dawg]

No it isn't. Boards and decision making bodies that are more gender balanced are objectively stronger than ones that are predominately male or female.

I don't disagree. I just think a 50/50 split is a really lazy way to get that gender balance.

You're trying to force that balance. It's basically based on a lie. You shouldn't need a preset rule just to be more gender balanced.

 

[Htown]

Wait a sec, I think there SHOULD be more female reviewers out there. But not to fill some quota, but because I actually want to see the differences of opinion. I don't like the idea of "Half of them are women solely because they're women"

I'm not saying it has to be half and half.

I'm saying 93 percent male means nobody is even fucking trying.

 

[Nibel]

The outlets choose their representatives it seems.

These outlets are generally headed by men and the longest members are most usually male. Female journalism has seen a surge, but it is recent in terms of the industry. It's not surprising that when an outlet is looking for someone to represent them that they choose a senior member, which, as established, is most likely a dude.

That's the issue.

.

 

[bananafactory]

The outlets choose their representatives it seems.

These outlets are generally headed by men and the longest members are most usually male. Female journalism has seen a surge, but it is recent in terms of the industry. It's not surprising that when an outlet is looking for someone to represent them that they choose a senior member, which, as established, is most likely a dude.

That's the issue.

That is an issue, but this is The Game Awards. Publications don't necessarily need to send their highest ranking officers. It should be very easy for a conversation to happen and fix this problem.

 

[Nirolak]

Though it sounds like they only asked for that after they heard about the make up of the whole jury. At the top of the story Chris says "I did not know the makeup of the voting jury when I agreed to participate." Which sounds more like going "yeah, I'll be a juror" then "I choose myself to be a juror for my outlet".

It's generally reflective of the industry.

We tend to think a lot about representation in games these days, but on the industry side, almost none of these sites sat there and went "Well if we all select our EIC or most senior reviewer, then we're going to have the same 30 people who are mostly white guys that have been doing this job for 15+ years, so maybe we should select someone different".

I don't think it's especially surprising this happened though. Most people would naturally select their EIC or senior reviewer upon receiving an e-mail like this.

 

[Ansatz]

"Gender should have nothing to do with this".

Game players are 45 percent female, 55 percent male.

This jury is 7 percent female, 93 percent male.

There is a problem somewhere.

Do you have a gender breakdown for people who regularly visit sites like IGN?

 

[Shredderi]

I think diversity is useful on a panel evaluating a piece of art. The more people you have from different walks of life (gender, race, sexuality, class, lifestyle), the more thoroughly you can examine how a piece of art resonates with humanity as a whole.

At the same time, the jurors should be thoroughly qualified based on actual merit. No one should be selected simply because they are one thing or another.

But like Finale Fireworker said, this imbalance is probably indicative of a larger problem in the industry, where women generally don't feel welcome due to hate groups, shallow depictions, etc. This results in fewer of them joining the enthusiast press.

This doesn't seem to be anything malicious on the part of the Game Awards. It appears the individual outlets nominate their representatives (Polygon chose to have a woman, after all). So if anything, the burden is on the outlets to promote diversity (and hopefully in a way where the talent is also there).

That's how I understood it. Take it up with the outlets themselves if this is the case.

 

[Lime]

1. Diversity doesn't mean lowering the bar.
2. There is plenty of women and non-White and non-straight people working in games media
3. Precisely because it is a problem in the industry, all the ones making decisions in this chain of command (from Geoff to the selected publicaitons) should be vigilant and think about diversity throughout the process. Just because it is a reflection does not excuse it and it is exactly because it is a problem that this should be kept in mind when arranging these things.

 

[massoluk]

They're all white? lol yet geoff running around going to kanye west concerts and shit

I thought it was weird that there is exactly 1 Asian in the jury, but that's another topic.

 

[Feichaw]

There's really only two scenarios: either there were no women available to pick from, which is a problem with the amount of female voices among game critics, or the selection biased against women. The meritocracy argument doesn't fly when the results are this skewed.

I agree with you when you say that the meritocracy argument can't be applied in this situation. I guess this is more like a problem with gaming media than anything else. I mean, I think there are many more men than women doing reviews or being game critics. The reason for this? I don't know.

 

[inky]

"Gender should have nothing to do with this".

Game players are 45 percent female, 55 percent male.

This jury is 7 percent female, 93 percent male.

There is a problem somewhere.

Yea, pretty much this. It's less about pointing fingers to anyone in particular and more about figuring out why this is happening and if something can be done to correct this. It is actually as good a place as anywhere to start figuring this shit out if it is really true that the industry and especially journalists are interested in figuring shit out, or the tons of articles they wrote about the subject have not compelled them to check what they are doing wrong themselves.

 

[Trago]

Are there any heads of gaming websites that are women? There's gotta be some right?

 

[Mesoian]

1. They could have taken a more active stance
2. Plenty of sites have women and/or no-default identities as their employees and/or editors.

1.) Sure, though that would take the selection, deliberation and voting process to be more than 3 emails as described earlier
2.) Are they permanent mainstays or talent? For example, I was surprised to see that Mary Kish or Elise Williams weren't on this list as they are permanent fixtures for gamespot and game trailers respectively, but then I remembered that they are hosts who does not write reviews. Furthermore, the selection process seems to be more fixated on publication first, personality second. If Polygon is any indication, the actual choice of person could be shifted without issue.

Like, help here, I am having a very hard time thinking of women in the games industry who have a permanent fixture in the journalism side of things. I can think of women who USED to be in those positions like Tina Sanchez or Kat Bailey, but they have either moved to actual game developer positions or have exited the market entirely. The fact that struggling to find female voices of note in the games journalism business is hard is a far larger and more endemic problem than who gets chosen to do a glorified GOTY list.

I mean....I think I'd normally agree with this, but that's a pretty damn slanted statistic. If it was something more like 75%/25% or 60%/40% sure, but when it's 93% I feel like the Game Awards staff could have made a better effort to promote diversity along with the rest of the industry.

Let's put it this way.

Every single article about the industry, written by a woman, that I thought was absolutely on point and amazing was written by someone who has the status of freelancer. Every one.

THAT should be the issue here.

 

[SolidSnakex]

Are there any heads of gaming websites that are women? There's gotta be some right?

Keza at Kotaku UK is the only one that I can think of.

 

[Boke1879]

If they are qualified I don't see the issue at all really. It's not Geoffs fault that this industry has white men in leadership positions.

And diversity for the sake of diversity doesn't help anything either

 

[RavenSan]

I'm not saying it has to be half and half.

I'm saying 93 percent male means nobody is even fucking trying.

Which is fair -- I think they could have picked at least 3-4 additional well respected women that come to mind for me (in my humble opinion) -- but I'm not ready to say they didn't pick them because of sexism, or they wanted a majority of straight white men.

 

[Nekofrog]

Why lessen the potential quality of judges by having to acheive an arbitrary mix of gender and colour?

If the judges are reflective of the industry (as it should be, why would it reflect society) then it is an industry created by and dominated by white men. Most of the high profile and successful members of the industry are white males.


Should Olympic or dance competitions for example meet a quota or should it be comprised of the most qualified?

It's obvious which is the important.


Shoehorning societal issues into and onto everything is a poor method of operation.

You trying to tell me that there are only 2 qualified women journalists in gaming?

You gonna say that with a straight face? I could list female journalists, independent and not, that run circles around many of the male selectees.

If they are qualified I don't see the issue at all really. It's not Geoffs fault that this industry has white men in leadership positions.

And diversity for the sake of diversity doesn't help anything either

It absolutely does.

 

[ElectricBlanketFire]

Do you have a gender breakdown for people who regularly visit sites like IGN?

Not that this matters to the discussion but according to their corporate site:

73% Male
Average age: 32.1 years old

 

[LiquidMetal14]

Eh usually "qualified" in the gaming industry means "one of my buddies" rather than actual qualifications.

Good point. I'm not even sure that we aren't more qualified but as log as the people can fairly asses the games then I'm fine.

 

[jmood88]

I don't disagree. I just think a 50/50 split is a really lazy way to get that gender balance.

You're trying to force that balance. It's basically based on a lie. You shouldn't need a preset rule just to be more gender balanced.

Why is the onus on everyone else to justify why white men shouldn't exclusively represent everything in games?

 

[bananafactory]

If they are qualified I don't see the issue at all really. It's not Geoffs fault that this industry has white men in leadership positions.

And diversity for the sake of diversity doesn't help anything either

It's not diversity for the sake of diversity. It's diversity for the sake of representation of the population, a huge chunk of which is female.

 

[Lulubop]

Are there any heads of gaming websites that are women? There's gotta be some right?

biogamer girl

 

[LiegeWaffle]

I always thought that this was basically the list of EICs of major game press. Which makes that list unsurprising, but still sad, given that there are plenty of women actually working in games journalism.

 

[jg4xchamp]

I would assume majority of those jurors are games media people? A field where there is absolutely a diversity issue?

Would argue that's the larger issue more than anything.

 

[Stevey]

Maybe I should quit my job because more men than women work there.

 

[WaffleTaco]

Ok...this is partly TGA's and partly the site's for basically sending their editor-in-chief (mostly white males). In order to best solve this, they probably need have their person chosen try and choose some minority (women, ethnic, sexual) to be chosen instead of them. However how do you decide which publication should do that? What do you do when the most qualified in that office (editor's-in-chief) are mostly straight white males.

 

[Stone Ocean]

1. They could have taken a more active stance
2. Plenty of sites have women and/or no-default identities as their employees and/or editors.

If they wanted to choose the judges, they would have just chosen the judges. That wasn't their goal so why would they ask for requirements?

You can argue that this is a systemic problem in the gaming press, not TGA's fault.

 

[codhand]

an old boys club ey