benicillin
Banned
It's already listed in the OP, only 4 people (out of 32) are not white.
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The Game Awards jury lists only 2 women out of 32 jurors (sites selected jurors)
- Thread starter Lime
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It's already listed in the OP, only 4 people (out of 32) are not white.
While this is true, diversity for the sake of diversity isn't really the answer either.
I remember seeing an old tweet where an IGN hiring ad (paraphrasing) was aimed for women writing for guys. That's not exactly a good way to encourage women to want to write for sites like that, nor women to stay writing for sites to become said qualified employees. Stuff like that holds back the medium and it can be argued that this is one of the side effects
Wait wait wait.
So if there aren't women working there, we penalize them for it?
And we instead step over the seasoned institutions in order to go to whatever blogs we can find that talk about games, but aren't actually gaming sites?
That's the extremist other end of things, where now we're just scraping the barrel to find whatever we can. I, personally, think Leigh Alexander should be on this list, but again, if the criteria for this list of panelists is publication first, personality second, how does it make any sense to have her on there?
Hell, I would rather them gather youtube personalities over bloggers who only have a tangential interest in gaming because we felt that we needed to meet a quota.
It is ABSOLUTELY one of the side effects. 100%
I fail to see a major issue in regards to this panel in particular, really.
Keighley and crew probably just hit up the chief in command and their XO, all of which who happened to be male as it not only is easy but is also conveyed as the "most reputable" position of that outlet of gaming since they normally are comprised of long-running well regarded reviewers.
To say not enforcing a 50/50 split is problematic and is a Polygon standard for all events they attend is weird on their part.
Keighley and crew probably just hit up the chief in command and their XO, all of which who happened to be male as it not only is easy but is also conveyed as the "most reputable" position of that outlet of gaming since they normally are comprised of long-running well regarded reviewers.
To say not enforcing a 50/50 split is problematic and is a Polygon standard for all events they attend is weird on their part.
Nah, these are special judges who Geoff has hand-picked and personally anointed with Mountain Dew.
QuantumBro
Banned
I feel like the only way to solve this is to either allow the public to nominate the jurors, or allow the public to vote on the awards themselves, otherwise the jury is just going to consist of people with connections to the ones who are putting it on.
Funny enough, Oscars look to be just as bad with respect to minority representation in voting.
Funny enough, Oscars look to be just as bad with respect to minority representation in voting.
Forcing a 50/50 split would yield better judgements considering that it would be more representatives of gamers as a whole.
Yaphett Kotto
Member
They can find their "qualified" people from plenty of sites. No need to have 30 people of mostly white dudes agreeing to the same thing without pointing out issues that may get overlooked.
Other award shows, especially in music and film, have this same shit going on and every year there is bullshit because the judges decide to pick a white actor or artist.
Other award shows, especially in music and film, have this same shit going on and every year there is bullshit because the judges decide to pick a white actor or artist.
I agree with your overall point but when qualified women and minorities aren't getting a shot because they don't know the right white dude then that should be addressed.
Gotdatmoney
Member
The most qualified person is almost always assumed to be a white male. There are tons of psychology studies on this. So people going with this most qualified argument are really just saying "woo status quo woo males!!"
Hamster Plugin
Member
Why is Breitbart represented in there? Under "esports advisory panel", what the hell? It's about ethics in esports journalism?
I mean yes, but seriously, fuck the oscars.
Wait what?
::Checks again::
Oh.
ooooh.
OOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOH.
This is a far larger issue.
SolidSnakex
Member
People are discussing the 50/50 split because of Killscreens quote about how they wouldn't participate unless that was the split. Which is strange considering their own site doesn't have that split. It's five guys and two women.
Doctor Decimate
Member
I'd say it indicates a larger issue rather than being a problem specific to the Game Awards, so this seems a little needlessly sensational to me; we should probably be talking in a larger sense about why most of the "names" in this field are white dudes rather than how The Game Awards is fucked up for representing that.
So yeah, we should still talk about the problem rather than dismissing it because "that's how the industry is" or talking about who's "qualified."
So yeah, we should still talk about the problem rather than dismissing it because "that's how the industry is" or talking about who's "qualified."
Gentleman Jack
Member
I'm in agreement with you, except that the demographics of the current jury is just as artificial as any selection of bodies to fill those gaps. There's nothing natural or inevitable about it.
Considering they are voting on games with VERY diferent target markets like Fallout 4, GTA 5 and Splatoon should matter a LOT
John Kowalski
Banned
Depressing and par for the course. Seems like it would be relatively easy to promote a diverse panel with a bit of proper communication between all entities.
Great, bring on the Youtube Celebrity Awards.
The Elite
BOSS
I don't know if you can hit 50/50 but the balance does seem off. Despite all the women getting involved in the journalism side of things it's still very male heavy. That's a larger problem.
If the outlets select their reps it's hard to blame Geoff or TGA for that. A solution would be for TGA to invite or select specific journalists (with approval from their respective outlets) so they can achieve more balanced representation in the future.
If the outlets select their reps it's hard to blame Geoff or TGA for that. A solution would be for TGA to invite or select specific journalists (with approval from their respective outlets) so they can achieve more balanced representation in the future.
KurtSloane
Banned
I don't believe that there are no qualified women in the industry, I know there are and respect their opinion, I'm just arguing that it is a bout the right person for the job, not arbitrary quota filling.
The fact there is a greater representation of white males at these things is because it is an industry predominantly created, owned, developed and consumed by white males.
That doesn't mean there shouldn't be representation of other groups, just the numbers will slant for the reasons stated.
Alebrije
Member
That would be interesting.
Studies have shown that diverse groups give better results than those focused on a specific gender or race. Many awards have been predictable because the judges' ideas of which game should win align with the majority, but not necessarily is agreed once the result is announced. That could be avoided with a more diverse group of judges.
Last year I asked Geoff about giving some space in the event (not necessarily as judges) to people from minority groups. No response. This year, still no change. IGN, Gamespot, Polygon, Game Informer, US Gamer, Mashable, Gamesradar and GameTrailers (I think, but I'm not certain) all have women in their staff. From these, only two are women and only Chelsea is considered a Games Editor (and that's because Mashable has more sections, since it doesn't feature only games).
I don't think Geoff has an agenda against diversity, just that his event could be a lot more interesting being more diverse. I won't question why any of these sites are included, but for example, why not The Mary Sue? They also review games and are extremely big. You don't want to choose specific members within these sites to consider as judges? OK, but you can still push for diversity in your event and then it just happens more naturally. I think it's something to discuss and understand.
Last year I asked Geoff about giving some space in the event (not necessarily as judges) to people from minority groups. No response. This year, still no change. IGN, Gamespot, Polygon, Game Informer, US Gamer, Mashable, Gamesradar and GameTrailers (I think, but I'm not certain) all have women in their staff. From these, only two are women and only Chelsea is considered a Games Editor (and that's because Mashable has more sections, since it doesn't feature only games).
I don't think Geoff has an agenda against diversity, just that his event could be a lot more interesting being more diverse. I won't question why any of these sites are included, but for example, why not The Mary Sue? They also review games and are extremely big. You don't want to choose specific members within these sites to consider as judges? OK, but you can still push for diversity in your event and then it just happens more naturally. I think it's something to discuss and understand.
Yeah, I probably shouldn't have needed to put in "can be argued" I still think this sort of stuff needs to be attacked at the roots (Like that image) if we are to move forward
Mihael Mello Keehl
Banned
So if Geoff had some kind of criteria to avoid group think or whatever they wouldnt be able to find 30 different people? lol. Out of all of games journalism?
I don't see a big problem with this as long as the judges are properly qualified.
However, it does pose a big question, one which I didn't see highlighted enough in this thread: why are there (apparently) so few qualified women? We have known for a while that the gap in women playing games vs men is no longer significant, even when it comes to 'hardcore gaming'. Why are so few of these obviously passionate women choosing to work in video game critiquing and thereby become qualified for this panel? I think that is the larger issue. The answer is hardly that women are less interested in writing about video games by default - my uneducated guess is that there is still a structural resistance against women in the video games business.
However, it does pose a big question, one which I didn't see highlighted enough in this thread: why are there (apparently) so few qualified women? We have known for a while that the gap in women playing games vs men is no longer significant, even when it comes to 'hardcore gaming'. Why are so few of these obviously passionate women choosing to work in video game critiquing and thereby become qualified for this panel? I think that is the larger issue. The answer is hardly that women are less interested in writing about video games by default - my uneducated guess is that there is still a structural resistance against women in the video games business.
Scientist Supreme!
Banned
Probably would have more diversity.
I think the founder is a esports announcer. I think.
shinobi602
Member
I'm pretty sure she was last year. Or one of the last few year's shows.
igordennis
Member
A lot of people who are posting "i see no issue, the most qualified person should go" would probably be questioning the qualification of those 32 women. Just a gut feeling.
Sephiroth_VII
Member
There are more males in the industry. Therefore, logic dictates that there are more experienced males in the industry than there are females. That is all.
Yes, because it would be highly illogical. Read the above.
If you called a conference for world peace and wanted to invite the greatest 32 former world leaders still alive to figure it out, demanding a 50/50 split would be ridiculous.
Instead of obsessing over this tiny issue, let's put our energy towards making technical jobs more attractive to women.
Reading stuff like this blows my mind considering about 95% of what I play, the only white male names that show up are in the localization credits.
Yaphett Kotto
Member
Speechless.
Sheriff_Battlesnake
Banned
Gender balance would be nice if only for the perspective of the other side. Otherwise games targeted at men MIGHT continue to win awards that MIGHT validate some kind of stagnancy.
but idk. I'd like to see at least a 1/3 split.
but idk. I'd like to see at least a 1/3 split.
let's reinforce that idea!
benicillin
Banned
lmao at all these people crawling out to defend the sanctity of the game awards from sexists by being forced to include women and people of color.
Please, tell me all about how they only selected their most qualified members (which all happened to be white dudes) and how it just reflects the game industry as a whole (it doesn't.)
There's nothing wrong with people calling out TGA for having a panel that isn't diverse when diversity isn't all that hard to come by.
Please, tell me all about how they only selected their most qualified members (which all happened to be white dudes) and how it just reflects the game industry as a whole (it doesn't.)
There's nothing wrong with people calling out TGA for having a panel that isn't diverse when diversity isn't all that hard to come by.
It would be worth seeing, absolutely.
But if you did it, you wouldn't be able to stay within games' media in order to fill out the panel.
Like, this is a tough one, because it really does highlight the fact that the people that we've accepted as voices and faces of this industry are all white and male, and trying to find ANY OTHER PROSPECTIVE is often times impossible, or fraught with...other issues.
::side glance at hip hop gamer::
But sure, yeah. I'd love to see a similar panel of all women. I doubt that there would be more difference in selection but, it's definitely something worth looking at.
Having the vast majority of the panel be made up of white dudes is a real problem, as it leads to people and viewpoints being misrepresented in the awards themselves. This is very reminiscent of the Oscars, where recent stats said that the voters were 94% White, over 70% Male and had a median age of 63. And guess what? African Americans and other groups have been routinely misrepresented in the awards. Less then 4% of acting awards have went to African Americans according to the LA times. This same shit will happen if The Game Awards doesn't push for a more diverse panel of judges.
This. People seem to be under the impression that critics of this judging board would be silent if the group was 93% female/black/asian/etc; the problem is that a board that's made up of almost entirely one race or gender is going to be worse off for judging games than a board that's forced to be split between a wide array of people coming from different backgrounds and walks of life.
Jesus christ.
Look into the person not the site.
QuantumBro
Banned
Have you watched previous Geoff Keighley awards shows? That's basically what they are, I think last years even had an award for best gaming celebrity.
The only game awards that are well produced are the GDC and BAFTA ones.
Gotdatmoney
Member
See here is where you are wrong. Its not. The games industry is 55% male, 45% female. Its not quota filling to put people of different backgrounds into roles they are qualified for. The reason that does not occur is because the default for competency is always assumed to be a white male. And from there white males get way more opportunity to build experience and skills because they constantly get favouratism for no other reason than their race and their gender.
What you are arguing is little self serving circular logic that isn't even rooted in fact. Women play videos games as much as men. Women deserve to be on a panel judging video games. And they deserve to have their voice heard because its better for gaming as a whole and not just white dudes.
Then why drop her this year?
I think the biggest question is, in this world where people care less about reviews and more about the personalities behind said reviews, is this industry going to move forward, or is it going to change entirely?
For example, I cannot trust a fighting game review from any of the major publications. Now that doesn't mean that they are bad at their jobs, it means that the majority of them don't have the time or experience to tell me whether or not a fighting game is balanced or fair, or will have legs or needs changes here. But we have internet personalities like Mike Ross or Maximillion who do spend time breaking all that stuff down, explaining what works and what doesn't. And they will never write a formal review, but their word, their stance on how things work, is more illuminating and enlightening than 1400 words from, oh let's say, Jeremy Parish (for example).
I think this games' media world is changing entirely, especially when major sites like gameTrailers or Defy or Giant Bomb are behind supported by the personalities of their staff opposed to the structural integrity of their reviews.
Sephiroth_VII
Member
...but it's true? If you want to make the industry more welcoming to women, surely there are better ways to spend your energy than demanding that the judges at the VGA's be evenly split.
And maybe, just maybe, the video game industry is never going to be as appealing to the average female. Why is that a problem? There are many industries which are like this, and it goes both ways.
Qualified judges is only part of the equation here as far as I'm concerned - and of course there are more than enough qualified women out there.
At the same time this is about the legitimacy of the awards - the way it stands we are getting the white male game of the year awards. It would be in the best interest of the show to secure broader representation.
At the same time this is about the legitimacy of the awards - the way it stands we are getting the white male game of the year awards. It would be in the best interest of the show to secure broader representation.
TOUGH TO DO WITH THAT PARTICULAR SITE
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