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[Garrett Hawke]

It's totally just because there are only qualified male jurors. As you know, in order to decide if something is GOTY, you need to have racked up at least 12,000 hours of gaming time over the course of three years. Additionally, you need to have a degree in Video Game Reviews, and courses for the degree are usually only open to men. They must be vetted by at least three other male journalists too.

It's just unreasonable to expect that there would be any qualified female journalists for something as important as deciding GOTY.

 

[QuantumBro]

Then why drop her this year?

Has anyone asked her or the Game Awards why? Should she be forced to participate in this against her will so that the awards show can have female representatives.

 

[213372bu]

I'll clarify my position, in case none of you are familiar with my other posts and etc.

I'm honestly surprised there aren't more women on the board. Especially with the topics going around, it's becoming more clear that diversity as a whole is something that is to be better represented. While many female journalists I used to follow quit or moved to gaming positions, I would imagine there are more than enough to fill a sizable portion.

What we are seeing here is the result of the Chief's and second-hands being established their position from over a decade of well-written reviews and have become figureheads as a result in their review department.

I think naturally Geoff just got the heads of the review departments as that is "easy" and is suppose to best "represent the site". So on his part I see no intentional wrongdoing both on the selection and in decision against a 50/50 split. Naturally, we will be seeing gains as years go on, of course.

Additionally, I don't see a 50/50 active split being necessarily the only "right solution" as Lime and Polygon suggest. Having a sizable chunk of women in the pool isn't much of a stretch though.

 

[diaspora]

...but it's true? If you want to make the industry more welcoming to women, surely there are better ways to spend your energy.

And maybe, just maybe, the video game industry is never going to be as appealing to the average female. Why is that a problem?

Uh, gamers are split almost 50/50 between men and women. Judges being 93% male will yield worse results that are less representative of gamers as a whole than one that's forced to be half men and half women.

 

[SliceSabre]

My question is how would you make sure the 32 spots are 'representative'?

If you send an e-mail out the companies and say select 1 person in your group for the 32 places with an eye towards 'diversity' who is the say you get a similar result?

I means the only way to get get what you want is for them to handpick who they want but then you run into the problem "Did this person actually play any of these games?" which is the same problem you have above.

While certainly the industry needs more diversity I am shocked that others are shocked the judges panel has mostly white males on it. I mean, what dd you expect? I can't even think of 15 women critic of note and the ones I think of are from smaller outlets that wouldn't get a second look anyway.

Sorta of like being shocked that in movies industry that the Academy panel is made up of mostly white males.

And before you start I say this as a black male.

 

[Cramoss]

If they're qualified critics, I see little issue. There could be 32 women and that would be fine.

Fucking this.

 

[Aaronrules380]

The issue here is that they all chose their highest ranking people to be the judges, and for a number of reasons those people were more likely to be male

Getting those positions tends to mean staying with the site for a long time, and not only do more men tend to go for jobs in this industry, but I imagine that as with most non diverse cultures, the turnover rate for the non majority group is much higher. Which isn't usually because they don't want diversity, but because the our groups end up quitting or leaving because the culture makes it hard for them to adjust, usually for reasons that are completely unintentional on the part of the in group. It's worth noting that a high number of female writers on these sites end up being freelancers, who would generally not be considered for something like this

 

[samn]

Look into the person not the site.

Flicked through some of his articles and tweets. He's a GamerGater who complains about 'social justice warriors'.

Even without that, representing Breitbart automatically makes you a POS.

 

[Mesoian]

...but it's true? If you want to make the industry more welcoming to women, surely there are better ways to spend your energy.

And maybe, just maybe, the video game industry is never going to be as appealing to the average female. Why is that a problem?

Because there are tons of studies that come out seemingly every month now that sort of point to that not being true. Women still play games, they spend the money, but they still get a red letter when they talk about it, which leads them to play quietly and not talk about it, which leads them to not going to these publications, which enforces the idea that said publications should be writing for men only (or, predominately).

There's something in that equation that can be fixed.

It's worth noting that a high number of female writers on these sites end up being freelancers, who would generally not be considered for something like this

Yup.

 

[Bits N Pieces]

Its just a very male dominated industry I'm afraid. Its like if they asked Scottish football journalists for there POTY it would be an all male panel.

Shame really.

 

[Sephiroth_VII]

Uh, gamers are split almost 50/50 between men and women. Judges being 93% male will yield worse results that are less representative of gamers as a whole than one that's forced to be half men and half women.

Source?

Even if that is the case, I'm saying people in the industry, not gamers. You don't invite average moviegoers to vote for the academy awards, you invite filmmakers. Same thing.

 

[Trago]

Has anyone asked her or the Game Awards why? Should she be forced to participate in this against her will so that the awards show can have female representatives.

Well, no. I'm just curious. Seeing as enough people value her input as a critic, and she's been on the jury in the past, I see no reason why she wouldn't return.

 

[Nirolak]

Then why drop her this year?

Kotaku isn't on the jury list this year, so I'm guessing they decided not to participate.

 

[Lime]

Wait wait wait.

So if there aren't women working there, we penalize them for it?

What are you talking about? Penalizing?

And we instead step over the seasoned institutions in order to go to whatever blogs we can find that talk about games, but aren't actually gaming sites?

That's the extremist other end of things, where now we're just scraping the barrel to find whatever we can. I, personally, think Leigh Alexander should be on this list, but again, if the criteria for this list of panelists is publication first, personality second, how does it make any sense to have her on there? .

I am sorry, mesoian, but right now you're being overly aggressive for no reason. The Mary Sue is scrapping the barrel? Feminist Frequency? Offworld? US Gamer? I would use a different description than "scraping the barrel" when it comes to these sites and their journalists. All of them are high quality and highly popular. Scraping the barrel is a poor choice of words. What's wrong with asking for more diversity since you're reacting like this?

 

[Aaronrules380]

Because there are tons of studies that come out seemingly every month now that sort of point to that not being true. Women still play games, they spend the money, but they still get a red letter when they talk about it, which leads them to play quietly and not talk about it, which leads them to not going to these publications, which enforces the idea that said publications should be writing for men only (or, predominately).

There's something in that equation that can be fixed.



Yup.

yeah, the issue is the industry isn't inviting to female gamers, and among those who do choose to be in it, the corporate cultures of major sites becomes a problem so they end up being freelancers

 

[Mesoian]

Has anyone asked her or the Game Awards why? Should she be forced to participate in this against her will so that the awards show can have female representatives.

Why is Jeff Gerstmann not a trending gamer of the year nominee? Why is PewdiPie one AGAIN?

Better question, Why is Anita Sarkeesian not a trending gamer of the year nominee?

Now THAT I would like to see, if only to see the beehive it kicks.

 

[Cat Party]

All the people saying it's fine "if they're qualified," or some variation, STOP.

That mindset allows discrimination to flourish. There are more qualified people then there are spots. You cannot allow huge groups to be unrepresented just because they aren't as visible or powerful. The onus is on the group putting together the panel to ensure or at least encourage diverse representation.

I assume it was an oversight here, but that doesn't excuse it.

 

[D4Danger]

Source?

Even if that is the case, I'm saying people in the industry, not gamers. You don't invite average moviegoers to vote for the academy awards, you invite filmmakers. Same thing.

they're critics not game designers.

 

[HK-47]

I see we have the old "white men suddenly really caring about meritocracy" chestnut in spades here.

 

[Gotdatmoney]

There are more males in the industry. Therefore, logic dictates that there are more experienced males in the industry than there are females. That is all.

Yes, because it would be highly illogical. Read the above.

If you called a conference for world peace and wanted to invite the greatest 32 former world leaders still alive to figure it out, demanding a 50/50 split would be ridiculous.

Instead of obsessing over this tiny issue, let's put our energy towards making technical jobs more attractive to women.

I can't even buy that, there are qualified women for the position of jury on picking games from a list. Its fucking crazy that this is literally something people feel like women are not experienced enough to do. Its the equivalent of saying because I have been doing engineering work for 5 years and my superior has been doing it for 10 years I wouldnt be equally as competent at teaching math to 12 year olds. Its just this faulty ass logic that will forever benefit the people in power because all things equal there is always a decided bias towards white males regardless of competency.

And the issue isn't tiny. What you see and what you are exposed to are motivating factors for people. If they have no role models, no people to look at and say "they did it, so can I" you will have little luck attracting the people you want. Also you can wprry about more than one issue at a time. But the fact that I actually think this is a problem means if I was hiring for a tech job I may be more inclined to actually hire a competent women as opposed to defaulting to a man. If you think it isnt an issue you will fall into the trap.

On top of that. There are always enough qualified individuals vs spots required. As long as people are meeting the requirements necessary why does that shit even matter? And as a total to show you why your reasoning is already flawed, sit in on an engineering class where they talk about putting more women into stem careers and making a point to hire more women. And listen to how much bitching you hear from the males and how much self depreciating none sense you hear from the women who think its hand outs despite the fact that all the students sitting in that roomed learned the exact same shit.

 

[Devilgunman]

Not sure why this kind of thing is always a problem. Why can't people get over gender and skin-color? If those qualified to be the judges are happen to be mostly guys, why is it a problem? Why not ask Geoff what kind of standard he used to select a judge and see if it is reasonable in stead of immediately rage quitting like this?

 

[Sephiroth_VII]

What are you talking about? Penalizing?



I am sorry, mesoian, but right now you're being overly aggressive for no reason. The Mary Sue is scrapping the barrel? Feminist Frequency? Offworld? US Gamer? I would use a different description than "scraping the barrel" when it comes to these sites and their journalists. All of them are high quality and highly popular. Scraping the barrel is a poor choice of words. What's wrong with asking for more diversity since you're reacting like this?

Anita Sarkeesian, at least, is highly controversial, and has barely reviewed any games. I've never even heard of the other sites you mention.

they're critics not game designers.

It was a mix last I checked. Isn't Hideo Kojima on there?

Pretty sure the split is far from 50/50 amongst critics as well though.

 

[Stone Ocean]

Better question, Why is Anita Sarkeesian not a trending gamer of the year nominee?

Now THAT I would like to see, if only to see the beehive it kicks.

I'm usually not part of these discussions but boy that would be one interesting shitstorm.

 

[Boogdud]

Uh, gamers are split almost 50/50 between men and women. Judges being 93% male will yield worse results that are less representative of gamers as a whole than one that's forced to be half men and half women.

What exactly are you saying here? That women like different games than men? That's a little sexist isn't it?


Seriously though, if these judges are qualified in their area of expertise and were chosen because they are impartial, why is it an issue?

 

[GavinGT]

Why is Jeff Gerstmann not a trending gamer of the year nominee? Why is PewdiPie one AGAIN?

Better question, Why is Anita Sarkeesian not a trending gamer of the year nominee?

Now THAT I would like to see, if only to see the beehive it kicks.

Probably because he was outspoken about how stupid he found that particular category. He probably asked not to be included.

 

[JoseLopez]

Ok don't want to get murdered but I feel like it isn't up to companies to meet quotas and I mean if the jurors where the most qualified why take their position to meet a quota.

 

[benicillin]

I see we have the old "white men suddenly really caring about meritocracy" chestnut in spades here.

But you see when women are on the panel it's because of forced requirements but when a white guy is on the panel it's because he was the most qualified and blah blah blah

 

[bananafactory]

All the people saying it's fine "if they're qualified," or some variation, STOP.

That mindset allows discrimination to flourish. There are more qualified people then there are spots. You cannot allow huge groups to be unrepresented just because they aren't as visible or powerful. The onus is on the group putting together the panel to ensure or at least encourage diverse representation.

I assume it was an oversight here, but that doesn't excuse it.

The amount of people who don't see the problem with this is both shocking and sad.

 

[ldcommando]

help, blops is going to win everything

 

[D4Danger]

Ok don't want to get murdered but I feel like it isn't up to companies to meet quotas and I mean if the jurors where the most qualified why take their position to meet a quota.

qualified in what? opinions

influential is probably a better way of thinking about it

 

[Oersted]

If I would get a Cent for everytime someone replies to underrepresentation with something along the lines of 'only quality matters', I would be fucking rich.

 

[Aaronrules380]

All the people saying it's fine "if they're qualified," or some variation, STOP.

That mindset allows discrimination to flourish. There are more qualified people then there are spots. You cannot allow huge groups to be unrepresented just because they aren't as visible or powerful. The onus is on the group putting together the panel to ensure or at least encourage diverse representation.

I assume it was an oversight here, but that doesn't excuse it.

The problem is that pretty much anyone on the sites is qualified, so the job goes to the person with the highest rank. Combined with each judge being selected without knowledge of the others, and we get the 30 something white guy panel

 

[diaspora]

What exactly are you saying here? That women like different games than men? That's a little sexist isn't it?


Seriously though, if these judges are qualified in their area of expertise and were chosen because they are impartial, why is it an issue?

I'm saying different critics with different genders, races, and backgrounds will as a whole group judge commercial works of art better than a group that's 93% homogeneous. This is an accepted truth when it comes to decision making bodies in the corporate world- certainly at Ivey, and it's true here.

Incidentally, it's already an accepted truth that gamers are more or less half men and half women.

 

[Sheiter]

The more that I think on it, the more absurd it seems to me that the 32 invited groups are expected to pick a single person to send at all. Look at the nominated games; the odds that any of the groups invited have a single person on staff who has played all of the nominated games to a significant degree is going to be low, if not zero. Each group should just be included as a whole and work together to send in nominations for each category. As it is, most of the judges will be skipping on voting for most categories or voting without a clear perspective on each nominee. A panel of judges works for something like the Academy Awards because each film is only around a 2 hour commitment but some of the games nominated for The Game Awards can take up to 100 hours to finish.

 

[Sephiroth_VII]

What exactly are you saying here? That women like different games than men? That's a little sexist isn't it?


Seriously though, if these judges are qualified in their area of expertise and were chosen because they are impartial, why is it an issue?

This.

 

[mitch1971]

I pick my GOTY. I don't need judges and awards to reinforce my opinion.

 

[notaskwid]

My university's Physics course had like 80 people and maybe 5 were women Is this a problem?

 

[Guri]

Anita Sarkeesian, at least, is highly controversial, and has barely reviewed any games. I've never even heard of the other sites you mention.

All of them are incredibly huge, though. That they didn't show up for you before could be for so many different reasons. The Mary Sue is one of the biggest not only for games, but movies, TV shows and more. They get tons of visitors. The same goes for Offworld. I don't visit US Gamer frequently, so I can't say much, but I know about it.

 

[JoseLopez]

qualified in what? opinions

Idk I can't say I mean people aren't hired just by looks but who knows i certainly don't.

 

[EvilKatarn]

They can find their "qualified" people from plenty of sites. No need to have 30 people of mostly white dudes agreeing to the same thing without pointing out issues that may get overlooked.

There's also no need to have it be 32 americans.

 

[HardRojo]

I agree with this wholeheartedly, The "diversity for the sake of diversity" business never sat well with me.

Exactly. As long as they are qualified and no other factor was in play, it's all good. Asking for a perfect 50/50 split is ridiculous and can interfere with the quality of the jury because they'll have to focus on "filling" spots too meet a criteria that has nothing to do with how qualified someone is. There could be a 70/30 split, with 70% being women and they could all be completely qualified for the job for all I know. The way I see it, the number will gradually grow and will probably fill a significant portion of the jury.

 

[Messofanego]

1. Go through the different sites listed and check if there are any women regularly employed (yes there are)
2. Look towards other sites/publications that could improve things or help you out making sure that you're doing this correctly. Sites such as Offworld, US Gamer, The Mary Sue, FemHype, FemFrequency, Bitchmedia, SpawnOnMe, Not Your Mama's Gamer, Justice Points, etc.

I don't think Bitch Media covers videogames, but those are great shoutouts. Haven't heard of Fem Hype before, but some good reads there from skimming. I think if a body really actively tried for inclusion, they could find a near 50/50 gender split of critics chosen if they're going through more fringe gaming critic outlets. Shit, Cara Ellison would qualify for this.

With more women in the jury, more unique and personal games can get nominations. Heck, you notice this in Giant Bomb's GOTY lists from various people.

 

[inky]

I see we have the old "white men suddenly really caring about meritocracy" chestnut in spades here.

"I don't care if they are white or blue or green as long as they are qualified. It is also a pretty interesting coincidence that 93% of them are white and male like me. Maybe that just means people who are not like me are not qualified at all, right?"

All of this about people "qualified" to give fucking "best music" opinions in videogames, lol. If we are going that deep, I doubt anyone in that list is qualified or has the proper background to be an authority judging that.

 

[Monocle]

Dudebros who will pick the most boring games of the year.

Nailed it.

 

[Archie]

Why is Breitbart represented in there? Under "esports advisory panel", what the hell? It's about ethics in esports journalism?

Richard Lewis knows his esports shit regardless of what website he writes for.

 

[samn]

Anita Sarkeesian, at least, is highly controversial, and has barely reviewed any games. I've never even heard of the other sites you mention.

Quality, insight, and impact is more important than quantity.

 

[IcyStorm]

Not sure why this kind of thing is always a problem. Why can't people get over gender and skin-color? If those qualified to be the judges are happen to be mostly guys, why is it a problem? Why not ask Geoff what kind of standard he used to select a judge and see if it is reasonable in stead of immediately rage quitting like this?

Because gender and skin color bring different experiences and opinions to the table. By having a group largely dominated by white men, you have a narrower spread of views (obviously they CAN have different views) that end up limiting the potential of what nominees and winners can be.

If most of the judges happen to be guys, there's a likely issue in that there's something that obviously hinders many women from being in games media and also being in leadership positions in games media. And this isn't something that will solve itself.

 

[CassidyIzABeast]

How many minorities are on the list?

 

[Bsigg12]

help, blops is going to win everything

BLOPs won't win in the 2 categories it was even nominated for.

 

[Garrett Hawke]

Why is Breitbart represented in there? Under "esports advisory panel", what the hell? It's about ethics in esports journalism?

wooooow. Don't even have words.