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The Game Awards jury lists only 2 women out of 32 jurors (sites selected jurors)
- Thread starter Lime
- Start date
Two problems with your argument.
1. The lack of male nurses IS a big problem that they try to fix as much as they can.
2. This is a jury representing the makeup of gamers, for awarding games, and women make up 45% of the audience of gaming, so they should optimistically have 45% of the representation of judges.
If there really are not enough qualified women working for the sites listed on the page why didn't the get some from other sites/channels/blogs?
That they are without a doubt just that makes it even more embarrassing to not have proper "qualified" representation.
He went out of his way to contact fucking Breitbart because the one guy knows a lot about esports but didn't think that he should go to other outlets to find representatives beyond the same people we see over and over again.
Here are some pros and cons of better gender representation.
Pro:
- more realistic representation of the gaming world
- women are happier
- opens the door to more sponsorship opportunities
- disrupts a demonstrably harmful status quo of exclusion
- wider range of critical perspectives brought to the table
Cons:
- annoys sexists
- goes against an arbitrary and nebulous concept of qualifications that seems more like reflexive contrarianism in service of preserving the status quo
Pro:
- more realistic representation of the gaming world
- women are happier
- opens the door to more sponsorship opportunities
- disrupts a demonstrably harmful status quo of exclusion
- wider range of critical perspectives brought to the table
Cons:
- annoys sexists
- goes against an arbitrary and nebulous concept of qualifications that seems more like reflexive contrarianism in service of preserving the status quo
Quality post that touches on good points in a succinct way.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Does anyone else see this as a great example of the problem of manchildren running the industry?
BlastProcessing
Member
Very well said.
I will also point out that a certain type of diversity was important to Keighley. If they only looked at qualifications there would have been more than one judge selected from each outlet. But The Game Awards decided that having many different outlets was more important than getting the most qualified 32 people for the job. That type of diversity was a priority for them.
Looking at the outlets chosen, they aren't of equal size, reach, experience, or quality, but The Game Awards gives them all equal treatment (one representative) regardless of the obvious facts. In this case, they valued having a representative jury above merit.
I don't know why all the people in this thread who value qualification above all else aren't furious about that, actually.
HP_Wuvcraft
Banned
Also, 'Best Mobile Game' is a category. So there goes the "casuals are not gamers" defense.
The categories are:
Game of the Year
Developer of the Year
Best Independent Game
Best Mobile/Handheld Game (and please, nobody take the "a nod is a Macedonian 'no'" defense)
Best Narrative
Best Score/Soundtrack
Best Performance
Games for Impact (basically is basically Best Narrative 2)
Best RPG
Best Fighting Game
Best Family Game
Best Sports/Racing Game
Best Multiplayer
Best Art Direction
Now please. Somebody tell me the complex, mind-bending qualifications you would need for judging any of these? Or, if you so choose to hold such an opinion, why a female judge would have a difficult time doing so?
The categories are:
Game of the Year
Developer of the Year
Best Independent Game
Best Mobile/Handheld Game (and please, nobody take the "a nod is a Macedonian 'no'" defense)
Best Narrative
Best Score/Soundtrack
Best Performance
Games for Impact (basically is basically Best Narrative 2)
Best RPG
Best Fighting Game
Best Family Game
Best Sports/Racing Game
Best Multiplayer
Best Art Direction
Now please. Somebody tell me the complex, mind-bending qualifications you would need for judging any of these? Or, if you so choose to hold such an opinion, why a female judge would have a difficult time doing so?
Two problems with your argument.
1. They are trying to fix the lack of male nurses by training/employing more of them which is great, and the same should be happening in the games industry, ie, it's down to the journo websites etc. to take more on and encourage females into these roles. It's not the responsibility of a company who runs a games awards ceremony to make sure more females are games journalists.
2. The judges are being picked from the games journalists we currently have, and the vast majority are male, so it makes sense that the panel will probably be mostly male. Making it 50/50 just for the sake of having exactly the same amount of males/females on the jury is ridiculous.
Familienoberhauptvogel
Banned
Wouldn't that be a positive?
So... still nothing to show that women and men have the same taste as far as gaming goes?
What is the right way to go about it? A discussion regulated to the online space is as civil and unobtrusive as it gets. Only other option is to not talk about and hope things get better which just means that the status quo will continue.
The panel doesn't need to be 50/50, but the current panel is not representative of the number of qualified women working as games journalists.
It would be very easy for anyone working in the industry to put together a more representative list.
LudicrousSpeed
Member
Yep.
My general rule of thumb is that whenever someone refers to "PC"/"Politically Correct", just do a mental find and replace with "treating people with respect". It's better than popping a brain vessel at the sight of people trying to demonize basic human decency.
The irony to this is there won't be much of this 'political correctness' if systemic issues are being openly addressed and subsequently ironed out.
But we are still dragging our feet because so much inherent resistance exist whenever such issues are brought to attention.
You know... As many times NeoGaf is referenced by media outlets and developers in the industry whether it's a citing or a quib... Maybe the selection committee should ask NeoGaf to send several female delegates.
There are plenty ladies here that throw down and this place is just as valid a resource as youtube or twitch. If I missed a post where someone mentioned this already I apologize in advance.
There are plenty ladies here that throw down and this place is just as valid a resource as youtube or twitch. If I missed a post where someone mentioned this already I apologize in advance.
BlastProcessing
Member
Slight update about Richard Lewis, the Breitbart.com reporter who is on The Game Awards panel. Over the weekend he got in an altercation with a Dota player backstage at an event and choked him. Both sides blame the other so I am not going to throw blame on that precisely. But I would point out his twitter feed where he is calling people "educationally subnormal Weaboos" retweeting tweets about "the nightmare dystopia of misandry and irrationality that Sweden has become" and "king cuckold"s.
Through this whole thing I also saw that he has been banned from the League of Legends subReddit for being a jerk. What a great guy. If the best job you can get as a report is at Breitbart I think it's a good indication that you have some personality issues.
I know some people in this thread where defending him and saying he was a reported who just happens to work at a website full of jerks... but I haven't seen much evidence of that.
Through this whole thing I also saw that he has been banned from the League of Legends subReddit for being a jerk. What a great guy. If the best job you can get as a report is at Breitbart I think it's a good indication that you have some personality issues.
I know some people in this thread where defending him and saying he was a reported who just happens to work at a website full of jerks... but I haven't seen much evidence of that.
Sounds like he's a MRA.
Dude works for Breitbart, fuck him. People defending him are just whitewashing an individual complicit in bigoted fear-mongering. I'm really disappointed that he was invited (did Geoff & Co. really go out of their way to contact Breitbart?). Then again the Game Awards fundamentally represents some of the worst sides of the games industry in its sycophant focus on AAA games, its marketing for big publishers, and its disregard for diversity, so I guess that this Breitbart invitation is what we can expect from them.
There's a Breitbart reporter on the panel? Wonder what the criteria were...
swazzyswess
Member
which men do you you think need to be removed, and which women should replace them?
Filling quotas is not the solution. "Sorry Johnny we have to let Dorthy be a judge otherwise there won't be a good enough diversity" "Sorry Deborah we have to let Jack be a judge because everyone else got in front of the diversity quota"
Or just ask the teams at the outlets to have a group discussion to choose the winners, but each outlet only gets the 1 vote.
Or just ask the teams at the outlets to have a group discussion to choose the winners, but each outlet only gets the 1 vote.
so apparently what happened was that lewis made this tweet: https://twitter.com/RLewisReports/status/670550953121226752
and as it turns out the person who made the sign is kelly milkies who is the manager of dota 2 team the alliance and their carry player loda's girlfriend. from what i can tell loda is saying that lewis straight up choked him after being confronted and there's witnesses, lewis is claiming that the story is being twisted somehow but isn't denying that he did it. my guess is it happened but lewis somehow thinks he was justified in assaulting someone who hadn't touched him.
so basically fuck richard lewis, looks like he's where he belongs at breitbart.
Him being selected had nothing to do with him working for Breitbart and is just twitter wanting to be outraged at something and forcing their own narrative as usual.
Garrett Hawke
Member
holy shit lol
The fact that he works for and contributes to Breitbart should matter and shouldn't be ignored. I don't care if you're Jesus, Holy Mother Mary, or B-Rock "The Islamic Shock" Hussein Superallah Obama himself, if you work for Breitbart and contribute to the site's proliferation, you are at best an ignorant enabler of sexism, racism, homophobia, and all the other ills with a hate-mongering fascist website.
potatohead
Member
This post just won the thread.
Qualifications in game journalism.... Bahahahahahaha! HAHAHAHA!
What is qualifications in games journalism other than a e-peen popularity contest????
Hell I am more for thoroughly recycling the "qualified" game journalists.... they need a kick in the pants anyway.
I'm tired of seeing AAA games from the big publishers grossly over mis-represented from sites like IGN and Gamespot.
A hell of a lot of us play a ton of indie and niche game genres on consoles and PC too!
chaobreaker
Member
I heard about this altercation on /r/dota2.
Apparently Richard Lewis was a huge asshole IRL and on twitter long before Brietbart felt he was a perfect fit for their site amd hired him. Because he does a lot of "good reporting", he gets a pass on some Reddit communities, even when he breaks site rules.
Ah yes, the monolithic twitter hivemind felt like being outraged that day and decided to pick on the poor Brietbart writer.
richard lewis accused loda of pushing his forehead into lewis' face
but something about this scenario seems to contradict with the evidence...
loda isn't a fighter anyways: now if they accused loda of distracting lewis so that admiral bulldog could demolish his house while he wasn't looking, that i could believe
In retrospect to this thread, it also seems like what people are doing is the same (implicitly sexist) shit they do to female players of video games:
"female players don't exist, so that's why there's only any games with white dudes"
->
"female journalists / reviewers / editors don't exist, so that's why there's only panels/juries with white dudes"
When you say stuff like this you make other people invisible and directly negate reality. Imagine how frustrating it is to hear that you don't exist or the work you do isn't acknowledged.
"female players don't exist, so that's why there's only any games with white dudes"
->
"female journalists / reviewers / editors don't exist, so that's why there's only panels/juries with white dudes"
When you say stuff like this you make other people invisible and directly negate reality. Imagine how frustrating it is to hear that you don't exist or the work you do isn't acknowledged.
BlastProcessing
Member
We aren't on Twitter.
What narrative are they forcing? What narrative is the correct one? What narrative are you advancing here?
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
And here we go again for 30 other pages of running in circles just because the thread was bumped... There really is an endless supply of "I'm not sexist but" sexist gamers on the internet.
NotTheGuyYouKill
Member
Gaming Journalism should have more women and people of color in it to avoid the whole 'white men' thing cause... there's a lot of white dudes in gaming journalism.
No doubt. But just hiring women or minorities for the sake of it isn't the solution. I have to wonder how many women and people of color apply for these positions and how qualified they are.
Also I hope no one uses this to bash The Game Awards. Geoff is doing something awesome and trying to take this seriously. last year was good. I hope this years show is even better.
D
Deleted member 126221
Unconfirmed Member
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
The choking and Twitter insults help explain why he's on Breitbart's squad lol
Do you wonder how qualified everyone is for their jobs, or just the women and people of color
Do you wonder how qualified everyone is for their jobs, or just the women and people of color
As a black man yes I do wonder about how qualified everyone is for their jobs.
As I said in my previous post. I wonder how many women and men of color apply for said positions. What if the people who apply for those jobs are heavily skewed towards white men? Surely it would make sense that they get the majority of those jobs right?
That's not to say there aren't qualified men and women of color applying but maybe more white men are.
And if not. You have to look at why these people aren't getting these jobs. And that's on the publications. Not TGA's. It's amazing how publications like Kotaku or polygon will run articles on this stuff but they themselves may be part of the problem.
Mobius and pet octopus
Member
I'm slightly curious as to what the selection process entailed. If the process was untainted then don't we conclude the results are as well?
Exactly. If the process was genuine then there is little reason to be upset. People seem to be upset at TGA's themselves and not at these publications that have either no women or People of color or very little of it.'
The publications needs to hold themselves accountable instead of "boycotting" and awards show that won't get to the root of the issue.
swazzyswess
Member
I think everyone is in support of the notion of more equitable representation. i consider myself a feminist and have written grad school essays on brilliant feminist writers that the world could learn a lot from, like Judith Butler, Gayatri Spivak, etc. I say that not to brag, but to attempt to establish feminist credentials before I'm shouted down like many people who don't toe a strict ideological line when it comes to feminism and issues like this.
What I don't see ITT are concrete examples of women who were passed over because they are women, or a list of clearly undeserving men and the women who should replace them. The unequal representation is certainly something to raise an eyebrow at, as is the relative lack of women who choose to write in and about the games industry, but moving from that fair, honest, unpleasant observation to a concrete, actionable plan requires delicacy and not simply ascribing negative motives to people involved in the selection or a sloppy attempt to immediately make things equal.
When someone says, "I'm not supporting these awards until they're 50/50 split between men and women," I view that person as fighting an admirable battle in the worst way possible. The goal, as it should be in every situation like this, whether it's about race, sexuality, etc, is to provide equal opportunity and to avoid discrimination on any basis. No proof has been provided to show this happened, particularly in an industry that skews heavily male in the first place and as a result leads to unequal representation in situations when people are selected from pools of preexisting applicants/candidates (which I do hope shifts over time).
yanipheonu
Member
To be fair this sounds more like a situation where, say, they asked individual publications to provide a jury member and it awkwardly tuned out to be mostly men.
It doesn't seem to be actively misogynistic, and the gaming sector has similar problem to engineering and programming where we just don't have enough women in these fields. It'll take time to make it more even.
It doesn't seem to be actively misogynistic, and the gaming sector has similar problem to engineering and programming where we just don't have enough women in these fields. It'll take time to make it more even.
I'm hoping it changes over time as well. I'd love for Jason of Kotaku to possibly write an article on this. What the process is. The stats on women/people of color applying for these positions and maybe what they can do in the future to help facilitate a more open and diverse culture.
BlastProcessing
Member
The Game Awards reached out to publications and asked them all to submit one judge.
Which sounds good on the surface but there are two issues.
1. This was done privately without any crosstalk between publications. So the Game Awards were the only party that knew the judge makeup. They were the single point of quality control here.
2. If the goal was to have the best qualified group of judges, then why limit each Publication to one representative? Why treat all publications equally when some are obviously larger and more qualified than others? The answer seems to be so that The Game Awards could claim a diverse pool of publications to add legitimacy to the awards. This is underscored by the fact that they name each publication represented on their judge's page.
So in the case of how publications were treated, prioritizing diversity was seen as a positive. It's only when we talk about women that posters become egalitarian defenders of qualifications.
To the last bit about untainted processes not delivering tainted results, that's classic institutional discrimination. Most of the discriminations that happen in society are not directly the result of people being actively hateful. It is much more common to be the result of bias and limits of perception.
Massive Duck. C.M.
Banned
I'm not going to repeat the posts I already made in this thread before the bump about the nature of the industry and why women and minorities are less likely to get in, so I'll just say it wouldn't hurt for you to educate yourself.
Maybe spend less time wondering how people got their jobs.
He's also banned on Reddit according to the DOTA2 thread on this subject for flaming others, harassment of other redditors over Twitter, and after the ban he threatened the mods. His articles are also completely banned in the /r/LeagueofLegends community.
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