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The General Star Trek Thread of Earl Grey Tea, Baseball, and KHHHAAAANNNN

maharg

idspispopd
The good ones don't feel as good if you don't know the characters. And especially so if you haven't watched all that crud to get to the good parts.

The characters are as flat as a pancake. None of them evolved at all, except in fairly predictable ways (seven = data = spock). I really don't think you need a 'sense of the characters' at all for the good episodes to still resonate.

Plus, if you watch it all you might just hate them too much to enjoy those episodes. Especially if you marathon it.
 
The good ones don't feel as good if you don't know the characters.

You can get the Voyager characters by watching the pilot. There is little development for any of them over the seven years, with the exception of The Doctor and Seven.

Simply put, when you have seen one episode, you now know the characters because nothing changes.

Turned into a sex salamander? Assimilated by The Borg? Ascended to the higher domain of a Death-consuming alien? Had your lungs removed? Had your entire personality deleted? Merged with another crewman? Had a woman pretend you've had her baby? Lived in an alternate timeline? Been tortured? Surgically abused? Been split into two people? Swapped bodies? Mind-merged with a psychopath? Reprimanded? Been infected with a flesh eating organism from liquid space? Been saved by the recreation of a war criminal? Been turned into a "ghost" that can possess people? Have an life-consuming bug leeching on your last strength? Being forced to live in endless holodeck simulations of warfare enduring a purgatory of near death?

It doesn't matter, as not a single one of the above events changes anyone. They happen, and are immediately and inevitably forgotten about by the next episode and never mentioned again.

Its an insult that the characters are meant to be human.
 

maharg

idspispopd
You can get the Voyager characters by watching the pilot. There is little development for any of them over the seven years, with the exception of The Doctor and Seven.

Simply put, when you have seen one episode, you now know the characters because nothing changes.

Turned into a sex salamander? Assimilated by The Borg? Ascended to the higher domain of a Death-consuming alien? Had your lungs removed? Had your entire personality deleted? Merged with another crewman? Had a woman pretend you've had her baby? Lived in an alternate timeline? Been tortured? Surgically abused? Been split into two people? Swapped bodies? Mind-merged with a psychopath? Reprimanded? Been infected with a flesh eating organism from liquid space? Been saved by the recreation of a war criminal? Been turned into a "ghost" that can possess people? Have an life-consuming bug leeching on your last strength? Being forced to live in endless holodeck simulations of warfare enduring a purgatory of near death?

It doesn't matter, as not a single one of the above events changes anyone. They happen, and are immediately and inevitably forgotten about by the next episode and never mentioned again.

Its an insult that the characters are meant to be human.

To be fair, this is all largely true of TNG and TOS as well (frankly, it's not as far off from being true about DS9 as some people like to believe either). I don't think it's a bad thing, I just don't think there's any reason to bother watching all of voyager. Unless you like throwing things at your TV.
 
To be fair, this is all largely true of TNG and TOS as well (frankly, it's not as far off from being true about DS9 as some people like to believe either). I don't think it's a bad thing, I just don't think there's any reason to bother watching all of voyager. Unless you like throwing things at your TV.

Its a fair point about TOS and TNG not exactly having rigorous continuity, but they weren't saddled with the "lost ship" scenario in which continuity and continuation are fundamental in crafting a believable progression of events. Voyager's lack of dirty carpets after seven years of isolation and hostility, breaks the standalone format to breaking point I feel.

The Next Generation probably did far more nods to previous eps and events than Voyager did, now I come to think about it. The Klingon/Cardassian/Borg/Barclay/Maquis arcs were pretty consistent, along with continuity heavy episodes like "Brothers", "Ship in a Bottle", "I Borg", "Rightful Heir", "Inheritance", "Journey's End", etc.
 

maharg

idspispopd
Its a fair point about TOS and TNG not exactly having rigorous continuity, but they weren't saddled with the "lost ship" scenario in which continuity and continuation are fundamental in crafting a believable progression of events. Voyager's lack of dirty carpets after seven years of isolation and hostility, breaks the standalone format to breaking point I feel.

The Next Generation probably did far more nods to previous eps and events than Voyager did, now I come to think about it. The Klingon/Cardassian/Borg/Barclay/Maquis arcs were pretty consistent, along with continuity heavy episodes like "Brothers", "Ship in a Bottle", "I Borg", "Rightful Heir", "Inheritance", "Journey's End", etc.

TNG kind of had arcs that were separate from the regular noncontinuity. Worf's progression was strong in episodes that featured his orphan->dishonored->secret kingmaker->honored plotline, but otherwise wasn't really relevant to anything he did or said. He was just there, being as gruff and hyperklingon as ever.

Voyager tried to do season arcs. Kind of Buffy style. It was the things they were facing that held continuity, not the characters themselves, who were largely just 'there' even for the arc episodes. The choral-reef heads (forget their name), Ceska (sic), the Phage, Species 8472, and then the glowy green mess they called the Borg.
 

Cheerilee

Member
Dr. Noonian Soong.

Khan Noonien Singh.

Why such similar names?

Carry on.

Apparently Gene Roddenberry had a friend in WWII named "Kim Noonien Singh", and Roddenberry lost touch with him after the war, so he stole his name and used it for Ricardo Montalban's character in the TOS episode Space Seed, hoping his friend might see it and look him up. It didn't work.

Khan's name got a much bigger audience when Space Seed was used as a basis for Star Trek II, but that still didn't work.

Roddenberry used it again in TOS as "Noonian Soong", still nothing.

Then Roddenberry died. And maybe Kim was dead the whole time. No happy bromance ending.


Then Enterprise suggested that Noonian Soong was given the name "Noonian" because his grandfather was a gigantic Khan fanboy and their last names sounded similar.
 

AAequal

Banned
Started watching TNG from the start and the first season was rather meh. I don't think the episodes were bad but they weren't great either. I loved the small build up they had for the conspiracy and I was expecting something bigger but the payoff was huge disappointment. I don't think there were any episodes that really stood out. Also I had no memory of
Tasha getting killed so early on.
:eek:

Well, I'm off to watch season two, not expecting much tho, IIRC the best TNG starts from S4.
 
Also I had no memory of
Tasha getting killed so early on.
:eek:

Well, I'm off to watch season two, not expecting much tho, IIRC the best TNG starts from S4.

I'd love to somehow see what the rest TNG would have been like if Crosby had stayed.

It does I think, but S3 has some classic episodes as well.

I was watching The Next Phase earlier. Ro centric episodes are nearly always good. I noticed Troi was absent a whole lot, she appeared at the start, shook her head when Picard asked her a question and then vanished for the rest of the episode.
 

maharg

idspispopd
I'd love to somehow see what the rest TNG would have been like if Crosby had stayed.

It does I think, but S3 has some classic episodes as well.

I was watching The Next Phase earlier. Ro centric episodes are nearly always good. I noticed Troi was absent a whole lot, she appeared at the start, shook her head when Picard asked her a question and then vanished for the rest of the episode.

Seriously? Are you spoilering something that happened like 20 years ago?

I think Tasha had huge potential as a character, personally. I think a lot of what went into her character's premise was later used for Ro Laren. Basically a starfleet officer from somewhere not utopian, more militaristic than most of her cohorts, but at the core someone who believes in the ideals of the Federation.

Denise Crosby wasn't a great actress, but I don't think she was really below average for the show. She got killed off while the show was still finding its feet so all anyone remembers of her is the bad (for which, up to episode 13 or whatever, there was plenty for everyone).
 

AAequal

Banned
Just saw Measure of Man and I actually remembered it some what well. Great episode and by far the best episode the show has offered up till this point. I also didn't remember the Dr. was changed for this season :D Don't care of her much, she reminds me bit of Bones, she stands her ground even against Picard.
 

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
Pulaski was tailor made to basically be a female Dr. McCoy. I didn't think she was that interesting, but at least she had a memorable presence unlike Crusher.
 
Seriously? Are you spoilering something that happened like 20 years ago?

I think Tasha had huge potential as a character, personally. I think a lot of what went into her character's premise was later used for Ro Laren. Basically a starfleet officer from somewhere not utopian, more militaristic than most of her cohorts, but at the core someone who believes in the ideals of the Federation.

Denise Crosby wasn't a great actress, but I don't think she was really below average for the show. She got killed off while the show was still finding its feet so all anyone remembers of her is the bad (for which, up to episode 13 or whatever, there was plenty for everyone).

Heh, I wasn't going to but he did so...

I think it's funny Denise Crosby complained her character didn't get much development/screentime, but if you look back at Series 1, I'd say she got some of the most. Certainly more than Geordi, Worf and Crusher. Probably Troi too.

I always wanted Pulaski to come back for a one-off. To see her and Crusher mix would have been good I think.
 
Pulaski was okay, but the way she talked to Data was kind of disgusting. Season 2 of TNG was the first whole season of Star Trek that I saw, and maybe because of that I still rate it very high. It has some of my favourite Star Trek episodes, like The Schizoid Man and Q Who. Hell, I even like The Royale.
 
Pulaski was okay, but the way she talked to Data was kind of disgusting. Season 2 of TNG was the first whole season of Star Trek that I saw, and maybe because of that I still rate it very high. It has some of my favourite Star Trek episodes, like The Schizoid Man and Q Who. Hell, I even like The Royale.

Pulaski is TNG BuzzKill the moment she showed up i zone out
 
Pulaski was the only one with any PASSION or actual EMOTION in the whole show. Yeah, she was a McCoy clone but so what? She actually portrayed a character instead of a 2d cutout.
 

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
7of9arrested.jpg
 

relaxor

what?
If anyone ever wants to really enjoy an easy, awesome Star Trek episode check out "The Enterprise Incident" season 3.2

I apologize if this has been thoroughly covered in this thread, but you know, surfing the wave and all that
 
"Aren't you glad we have abandoned Star Trek Voyager?" Well, there's one thing right with that clip.
antonz said:
I mean the Neelix question was stupid easy even if you never watched the show
Yeah. Can't replicate food, so you'd need... who? I suppose they could make an incorrect stab at farmer, but there are only a few decent options.
 

TheFatOne

Member
So I made it to season 4 of Voyager. It's not as bad as I thought it would be, but I can't take the captain seriously. One episode that really bothered me is the one with Tuvix. Shouldn't Tuvix be able to decide whether or not he should live. Doesn't he have the same rights as anyone else on the ship. It was bullshit that she got to decided whether or not he lived. That decision should have never been hers to make, and she made the wrong decision.

It seems like she only uses the prime directive when it's convenient for her, and some of the decisions she makes are retarded. Why would anyone in their right mind go through borg space? If it wasn't for the bullshit Kes evolution everyone on Voyager would be dead. How stupid can you be to try and make an alliance with the borg. Also why did Kes have to be removed from the show? Why didn't Kim, or Neelix leave?

There is one small thing that bothers me about Voyager. It's not possible for them to fix everything, and it seems like the director/writers just hit the reset button after a major conflict. Didn't the Enterprise have to stop at star bases for repairs that they could not do themselves. How can Voyager always manage to be in pristine condition after a conflict. I understand now why this series is not as good as the previous ones, but some episodes are still pretty good.
 
I could basically quote your post and put "Me too." after every sentence or two.
TheFatOne said:
It seems like she only uses the prime directive when it's convenient for her,
Yeah, which Janeway will it be in a given week? The one who espouses Federation/Starfleet ideals above all and looks down on those who'd take an easier way? Or the one who thinks it's justified to get in the middle of not-fully-understood conflicts if it seems like it would be beneficial to the crew's attempts to get home?
 

Cheerilee

Member
Also why did Kes have to be removed from the show? Why didn't Kim, or Neelix leave?
Officially, it was because the writers ran out of ideas for her character.

Unofficially, the writers didn't run out of ideas, they actually had plans for her through later seasons, which they eventually used other characters to fill.

According to rumor, most of the cast initially signed 3-year contracts, so anyone could be very easily fired/not renewed after season 3. The producers decided to mix things up by introducing Seven of Nine, but they didn't want to increase the cast size, so they decided to fire someone. They apparently decided to kill off Harry Kim, because his actor was the least popular with the crew, but then People magazine named him one of the sexiest men of the year, so they panicked and decided to fire someone else. It came down to Kes and Neelix, and Kes was starting to have bad skin reactions to all the makeup, whereas Neelix was immune, so Kes got the chop.
 

MC Safety

Member
So I made it to season 4 of Voyager. It's not as bad as I thought it would be, but I can't take the captain seriously. One episode that really bothered me is the one with Tuvix. Shouldn't Tuvix be able to decide whether or not he should live. Doesn't he have the same rights as anyone else on the ship. It was bullshit that she got to decided whether or not he lived. That decision should have never been hers to make, and she made the wrong decision.

Janeway was a terrible captain. And in the later seasons, she routinely sought the advice of a hologram.

Voyager was full of technobabble and elevation of technology over people. So of course the ship's captain would think it perfectly fine to take her cues from a machine.
 
It came down to Kes and Neelix, and Kes was starting to have bad skin reactions to all the makeup, whereas Neelix was immune, so Kes got the chop.

To think, we could have got rid of Neelix.

Also I saw today: http://trekmovie.com/2012/05/26/exc...rek-sequel-plans-to-pitch-worf-tv-movie-more/

Shame his part in ST2 didn't happen. I suppose there's hope for the threequel.

If Abrams and Frakes both got turned down for a new Trek show, I can't see Dorn's TV movie getting the go ahead. But I would love to see anything that carries on the TNG crew/universe.
 
Everyone talks about Tuvix being an example of a good episode that was tragically ignored in subsequent episodes, but DS9 has something very similar. I've been rewatching it, and there's an episode where Curzon Dax's memories get transferred into Odo, and somehow their personalities merge into one combined character.

I thought it was a shame that that didn't last for more than one episode. I liked Curzon Odo, and it would've been interesting to see Jadzia adapt to the absence of one of her host's memories.
 

Tobor

Member
It's hilarious that every pitch from a former Star Trek actor involves their character being elevated to Captain. Lol.
 
Shatner was great when he hosted Have I Got News For You this week. He's got good comedic timing, even though autocue and some names gave him problems... But still, pretty good for a guy who's 81.
 

Walshicus

Member
The crew didn't handle the situation very well, but there wasn't really a good solution as there was no scenario where all three beings could exist.

Starfleet officers wouldn't have killed one person to possibly revive two. That's what made the episode offensive to watch.
But then most of Voyager was offensive, either on the eyes, the ears or the mind.



EDIT: Watched the Shatner hosted Have I Got News For You in iPlayer after Eurovision yesterday, but barely stayed awake I was so drunk. Need to catch the extended version now that it's aired.
 

Cheerilee

Member
It's hilarious that every pitch from a former Star Trek actor involves their character being elevated to Captain. Lol.

It fits with the show. By the time of the TOS movies, Kirk was an Admiral, Spock, Scotty, and Sulu were all Captains, and everyone else was at least a Living Legend. Sulu had the Excelsior long before his pitch.

TNG said early on that Riker was turning down lesser ship offers, and he finally took a juicy one at the end of the movie series. The series implied that everyone else had equally bright futures. Dr Crusher even gets her own ship (in an alternate timeline).

DS9 gave Worf plenty of direct command experience (although it was Sisko's ship), and then elevated him to Klingon Chancellor (which he turned down, and later settled on Ambassador).

Voyager had Janeway promoted to Admiral and suggested that Ensign Kim was going to eventually make Captain. As Kim said in that one episode, he took the "command" branch of classes at Starfleet, got posted as a day-shift bridge officer on a top-of-the-line starship, and was more than competent at his job. If he wasn't stuck on Voyager, he'd have been offered command of a minor ship after just a few years.
 

BorkBork

The Legend of BorkBork: BorkBorkity Borking
Read this a long time ago, really enjoyed it, thought I would share:

Let's See What's Out There: Patrick's Stewart's Picard

I think it's safe to say that if it hadn't been for Patrick Stewart, there would be no modern Trek, and we would still think of the franchise as a cult TV series from decades ago that spawned a couple of movies and, in the late 80s, a short-lived spin-off. In The Next Generation's first season, Stewart is the only member of the cast with both acting chops and the opportunity to use them, and he makes Picard, and the show, his own, elevating the cheesy material and blatant speechifying. In his hands, Picard's wanderlust, his geekish enthusiasm, his commanding presence, and his deeply held and frequently expressed convictions, become genuine and heartfelt. Stewart brings Picard to life--that fascinating, complicated mixture of whimsy and stolidness, humor and gravitas, thoughtful diplomacy and indomitable will. There is a popular theory that the show improved so dramatically in its second and third seasons because Stewart kept acting above the material the writers provided him with, and whether or not that's actually true, the fact that The Next Generation ever achieves the magic of slipping into the world of Trek and making it its own, becoming part of a grand storytelling tradition rather than just a bunch of bad actors traipsing about in ugly spandex, is largely down to that one man and his performance...
 

maharg

idspispopd
Everyone talks about Tuvix being an example of a good episode that was tragically ignored in subsequent episodes,

People talk about Tuvix being a good episode? That's strange, considering it's an abomination that defies everything about Star Trek's vision of the sanctity of life. They murdered someone in cold blood while he begged them to spare his life. It's easily the lowest moment in Trek history.

If he had willingly sacrificed his life for Tuvok and Neelix', that would be one thing, but that shit was fucking cold. It tells the audience that in the universe of Star Trek, someone unwilling to end their life for the sake of another's is so contemptible as to be unworthy of life.
 

DrForester

Kills Photobucket
People talk about Tuvix being a good episode? That's strange, considering it's an abomination that defies everything about Star Trek's vision of the sanctity of life. They murdered someone in cold blood while he begged them to spare his life. It's easily the lowest moment in Trek history.

If he had willingly sacrificed his life for Tuvok and Neelix', that would be one thing, but that shit was fucking cold.

Janeway acting sane and rational would have been totally out of character though.
 

BorkBork

The Legend of BorkBork: BorkBorkity Borking
This is some good material. Especially her other posts about other series. Thanks!

Her DS9 stuff is pretty good, too. Also fun to read her rants on BSG, she just hate hate hates how the series was handled. Can't say I blame her.
 
Her DS9 stuff is pretty good, too. Also fun to read her rants on BSG, she just hate hate hates how the series was handled. Can't say I blame her.
Yeah I'm going through that right now. Also read her one post on B5 which I thought was very interesting.

I'll have to check out her stuff on BSG.
 
People talk about Tuvix being a good episode? That's strange, considering it's an abomination that defies everything about Star Trek's vision of the sanctity of life. They murdered someone in cold blood while he begged them to spare his life. It's easily the lowest moment in Trek history.

If he had willingly sacrificed his life for Tuvok and Neelix', that would be one thing, but that shit was fucking cold. It tells the audience that in the universe of Star Trek, someone unwilling to end their life for the sake of another's is so contemptible as to be unworthy of life.

It was a good episode but not the reasons you stated. Janeway is in a unique situation where whatever she decided it wasn't going to be pretty.

1) She has lost two valuable crew members when they couldn't afford to. They essentially died due to transporter accident and one that is reversible. An accident that killed two lifeforms and created one that they never intended to create. Tuvok and Neelix have priority over Tuvix. Either way somebody was going to be dead.

2) She has no idea if Tuvok and Neelix are truly in agreement in their decision to remain as Tuvix. Or that they are inside Tuvix at all. Tuvix may be an entirely new organism speaking and acting out of self preservation.

3) Janeway misses her friend (Tuvok).
 

maharg

idspispopd
Read this a long time ago, really enjoyed it, thought I would share:

Let's See What's Out There: Patrick's Stewart's Picard

That's brilliant. Really fascinating read on the character and the show, and fits well with continuity well past the end of TNG.


It was a good episode but not the reasons you stated. Janeway is in a unique situation where whatever she decided it wasn't going to be pretty.

1) She has lost two valuable crew members when they couldn't afford to. They essentially died due to transporter accident and one that is reversible. An accident that killed two lifeforms and created one that they never intended to create. Tuvok and Neelix have priority over Tuvix. Either way somebody was going to be dead.

2) She has no idea if Tuvok and Neelix are truly in agreement in their decision to remain as Tuvix. Or that they are inside Tuvix at all. Tuvix may be an entirely new organism speaking and acting out of self preservation.

3) Janeway misses her friend (Tuvok).


Any ending is better than dragging a man kicking and screaming to his execution, with the entire crew of a starfleet ship complicit. Janeway being selfish is not justification, it only makes it worse. And fuck no tuvok and neelix don't have 'priority'. Priority? What a load of shit.

If Starfleet officers have 'priority' over other life forms we may as well just believe the Mirror Universe is the right one.
 

DeadTrees

Member
People talk about Tuvix being a good episode? That's strange, considering it's an abomination that defies everything about Star Trek's vision of the sanctity of life.

Eh, Trek routinely offed people to restore the status quo. The difference is that there wasn't an cheap melodramatic out to make everybody feel better. "Oh, we've gotta kill off Good Kirk and Evil Kirk, because, um, they'll die unless they're stitched back together." "Oh, we've gotta let Joan Collins get run over by a truck, because NAZIS."

maharg said:
If Starfleet officers have 'priority' over other life forms
Tuvix was an officer.
 
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