TeamGhobad
Banned
I think cuphead should have been a bit easier.
Name me one other peice of art that requires that you watch the same small section of it for three hours before it lets you see the rest? This game might as well have a paywall.
There is artistry in the branding of a sports team, including their jerseys. There is artistry (not just visual arts, but brilliant architecture) that goes into a basketball court. There is craftmanship that goes into the mascots and even into the basketball and hoop. Watching Michael Jordan slam dunk in slow motion might be inspiring, and you might also really like the movie Space Jam.I would disagree with this idea. Games are very much art, but they are mechanically interactive art as well as intellectually interactive - a different type of art, an art in its own category.
It's okay to be niche.
It seems like it works fine for From Software.
They could do it if they wanted to. They don't want to. It doesn't take 10 hours per week, it just takes 10 hours. If it takes you six weeks to do those 10 hours, you've still done it (and a Souls game will last you the better part of a year - what value!). There's no practical obstacle against gitting gud. You are just lazy.
The world does not bow to your family life. I've got a family too, but gaming is a part of our time together. We play Monster Hunter, Towerfall, Smash Bros, Overcooked, Go Vacation, and all sorts of stuff together. Heck, my 10 year old daughter LOVES Bloodbourne. She makes me play it for her while she reads the strategy guide out loud to me (the Future Press guides are really quite impressive - there's a Souls lore guide coming out next month that we are both really looking forward to).
I can name twenty - no, thirty - games that can be that for you. Maybe forty. Just in the past two years. Fifty even. I can name fifty games, off the top of my head, that are exactly what you want here. Sekiro isn't one of them. And that's okay because you have FIFTY other games you can play.
You know what is also okay? It's okay to be niche.
The day FROM caves (which I hope is never) and surrenders their artistic vision to appease the whiners who want everything designed for them personally is the day I lose all respect for FROM. I don't think they'll ever go down that road, though. I mean they've been a niche developer who seemed to dance to the beat of their own drum for a very long time. It's who they are.
There is artistry in the branding of a sports team, including their jerseys. There is artistry (not just visual arts, but brilliant architecture) that goes into a basketball court. There is craftmanship that goes into the mascots and even into the basketball and hoop. Watching Michael Jordan slam dunk in slow motion might be inspiring, and you might also really like the movie Space Jam.
But basketball is not art.
Art assets play a more central role in the videogame experience compared to sports, but that doesn't make games art. That's actually a very limiting description of videogames, which have transcended both "art" and "game" into a different sort of medium.
When everything is art, nothing is.Well I have a much broader definition of art than you do.
The way in which you live your life is an art form.
To me, art is creation. To exclude games from the definition of art is to reduce art to a non-concept, to make it vanish altogether.
The fact you state easier games to be brain dead says a lot about your elitism. Do you really think i would give a flying fuck if nintendo added a optional ultra hardcore elite mode to animal crossing?Can we also demand a hard mode for every brain-dead game as well to make up for it? I want hardcore animal crossing where not eating 3 meals a day leads to starvation and armed home invasions are the norm
If the studio wants to make a game that is 100% their vision without caring for sales, but only in delivering a product they feel proud of, they have the right to do that.
Who knows, as long as they break even maybe From considers the game a success if their target audience likes the game. Not every studio has to be a mini Activision/EA blindly chasing as much profit as possible.
When everything is art, nothing is.
Why? Is there a shortage of games and the only solution is to force easier difficulty levels on hard games?I didn't say they don't have the right to do that.
Also, please don't misconstrue my statement as assuming that games have to appeal to absolutely everyone. There's a middle ground between difficult niche games and something that's been completely watered down. It's just important to remember that it won't hurt many games to include easier difficult levels and expand access to people who might not have the time or reflexes to play at higher difficulties.
Why? Is there a shortage of games and the only solution is to force easier difficulty levels on hard games?
But, that is not what happened, is it?! Journalists have been getting offended because there is no easier difficulty and instead of playing something else or improving themselves for their job, they tried to force From Software to change their target audience and fabricated some drivel about accessibility. Turning it around and blaming "Gamers" now isn't very honest.The issue is when gamers get offended that a game has easier difficulties
My post was provocative, of course. And you would know it if you read it carefully or, even better, watched Jim's video.
But having another optional easiER difficulty wouldn't kill the game.
And it's fine the way it is too; I just don't get why everyone is so defensive about a dumb issue like this.
But, that is not what happened, is it?! Journalists have been getting offended because there is no easier difficulty and instead of playing something else or improving themselves for their job, they tried to force From Software to change their target audience and fabricated some drivel about accessibility. Turning it around and blaming "Gamers" now isn't very honest.
Let me ask you this, if you think the FromSoftware’s games are too hard for you why not play different game? There is 1000 up on 1000 games out there with easy difficulty. Why developers needs waste resources in order appeal to someone like you who might not care for their games in the first place?The fact you state easier games to be brain dead says a lot about your elitism. Do you really think i would give a flying fuck if nintendo added a optional ultra hardcore elite mode to animal crossing?
NO then why do so many SOULS gamers give a fuck about an easy mode being in theirs.
So, playing games less doesn't make you less of a gamer? Temporally, it absolutely does.Like I said, it works some of the time. From is a good example of that. The issue is when gamers get offended that a game has easier difficulties, or suggest that you're somehow less of a gamer because you can't devote a large portion of your week to games.
That's not what I'm suggesting at all. If you make time, you have time. You can't blame somebody else for how you prioritize your time.Hey, it's great that your family makes gaming a part of its experience. But not everyone has the same family life, and it's pretty shitty to suggest that others are lazy or incompetent because they'd rather, say, go on a date or play with their child outside.
Since I'm playing Bloodborne with my daughter now, I went and checked and I have 33 hours in the game. I'm in the fishing village which I believe is the last area of the DLC, and I've only got two bosses left in the main game and I've done the optional areas and bosses. So, all told, I'll probably beat it in under 40 hours, or right around there. This jives with what howlongtobeat.com has for Bloodborne, which is 35 hours for the main game and 9 hours for the DLC on average. And since Bloodborne saves after everything you do, this time includes every death and failed run - each of the 40 times I fought Martyr Logarius and didn't beat him.And like Jim said: if you have to sink quite a few hours of practice into a game before it starts being fun, there might be a problem. Not to say From's games are interminable slogs, but there are ways to reward expert gameplay without making players feel terrible on their first few outings.
Let me ask you this, if you think the FromSoftware’s games are too hard for you why not play different game? There is 1000 up on 1000 games out there with easy difficulty. Why developers needs waste resources in order appeal to someone like you who might not care for their games in the first place?
You can’t expect games to be everything for everybody, actually most of the game suffers trying to appeal to everybody.
Also most people don’t play games with high difficulty for bragging rights, they play it because it’s fun and satisfying.
Pretty interesting talk about dark souls and why its probably a bad idea to try and appease everyone.
The fundamental question is this: do you deserve to beat a game just because you spent money on it?
The arcades didn't seem to think so. Entire genres don't seem to think so. People complain if spending money gives you a leg up on your opponent in an online multiplayer game ("pay to win").
So why do people believe they should beat a game just because they bought it? The difficulty is part of the developer's artistic vision.
So, playing games less doesn't make you less of a gamer? Temporally, it absolutely does.
I have the impression that a lot of people who want a easy mode would be bored to death when playing Dark Souls like this.
When you dimish the difficulty, the importance of your choices, as a player, dimish as well. "What weapon should I use?", "What direction should I roll?", "How should I build my character?" The answer to these questions in an easy game is "whatever". The game gets boring and there won't be any cinematics, lore dumps or check list quests to occupy the space.
The endgame would be these gamers starting to demand cinematics and all that because "Dark Souls isn't as deep as elitists think it is and the series should go with the times".
Can I just say that not only did I go out and find a Magic Eye picture that is the perfect retort to that stupid comment, but I even went the extra mile and posted an erotic one? Do you know how long I had to stare at these things to find one that was just right level of explicitness? Of all my shitposting, this one was easily the best and none of you fuckers noticed. Maybe Magic Eye pictures need an easy mode. My posts are the Dark Souls of shitposting.
Most people play games with high difficulty because it is fun. Different people find different things fun and if some people don't find game with high difficulty fun then its safe to say the game is not for them. I find both watching horror movies and playing horror games fun but that not going to be true for everybody but does that mean creators needs to stop making horror to try to appeal for everybody? The reality is not everything is going to appeal to everybody and trying to force to make it have wide appeal will make creation uninspired and lack focus.Gonna focus on this since I don't fundamentally disagree with the other points.
It's more about how developers and the community treat that person than the literal amount of time they've played. We shouldn't look down on someone who's genuinely enthusiastic for games, but doesn't have as much time or raw talent as they'd like. This doesn't mean forcing developers to accommodate them, but we should encourage devs to accommodate them since games are ultimately about having fun and (in single-player games) telling stories, not necessarily proving your mastery.
I don't think all games need to be everything to all players. For instance, I LOVE that Dwarf Fortress exists. It is brilliant, impenetrable, and stupidly complicated - and that's a good thing because Dwarf Fortress is exactly what it needs to be for the creators to make a living off of it. A dedicated game creates dedicated players. It is okay to be niche.It's more about how developers and the community treat that person than the literal amount of time they've played. We shouldn't look down on someone who's genuinely enthusiastic for games, but doesn't have as much time or raw talent as they'd like. This doesn't mean forcing developers to accommodate them, but we should encourage devs to accommodate them since games are ultimately about having fun and (in single-player games) telling stories, not necessarily proving your mastery.
Most people play games with high difficulty because it is fun. Different people find different things fun and if some people don't find game with high difficulty fun then its safe to say the game is not for them. I find both watching horror movies and playing horror games fun but that not going to be true for everybody but does that mean creators needs to stop making horror to try to appeal for everybody? T reality is not everything is going to appeal to everybody and trying to force to make it have wide appeal will make creation uninspired and lack focus.
Quote from Jim that says it all... "What is so harmful about a completely optional mode that you never have to experience?"
Then we should ban mods, and everything else that could hinder the devs' artistic vision.
Like, I don't know, playing on a sub-par tv. Or playing it without sound. Or with better antialiasing.
Or taking turns with friends.
I really hope From's decides to actually release an easy mode. Just to say "see, it's their artistic vision now".
Jim's right: fuck off with this bullshit. Let people have fun the way they want. Who cares?
If cheating makes the game more fun to some people, thus making the game more popular, what's the problem?
No one here saying if people don’t enjoy FromSoftware game or any game with high difficulty they are not gamers. My point is we have different types gamers out there and we also have different type games for any type of gamers. You can’t expect a single game that would appeal to every gamer.Didn't say this involved "forcing" games to have a wide appeal.
The point in my statement was that we shouldn't take a snobbish attitude toward what constitutes a gamer. You are not less of a gamer because you can't devote 10-plus hours a week to playing, or because you found the latest Souls-style game too frustrating.
I don't think all games need to be everything to all players. For instance, I LOVE that Dwarf Fortress exists. It is brilliant, impenetrable, and stupidly complicated - and that's a good thing because Dwarf Fortress is exactly what it needs to be for the creators to make a living off of it. A dedicated game creates dedicated players. It is okay to be niche.
You don't tell a composer how to write music. You don't tell an author how to end his story. You don't tell an artist what colors to use. You don't tell a comedy how to write jokes. I mean, you can, but he'd be an idiot to listen to you.
You are probably coming from a perspective that game design is a product, and it must be designed with an eye towards the customers that will buy it, but I just can't see it that way. I think once you've found a game design that really speaks to you - like REALLY speaks to you... I'm talking like that Junji Ito comic with the people shaped holes in the mountain, "This hole was made for me!" speaks to you... then you are instantly and forever disavowed of the notion that game design is purely a product, or ever should be.
The devs should never accommodate me. They should compose, write, paint, and joke in whatever manner they see fit, and I'll decide whether I will sing, read, view, or laugh along with them.
VR doesn't change the design-philosophy behind the game.It's exactly the same as when I ask for VR options in upcoming games the internet fires back with a resounding "FUCK YOU AND FUCK VR" .. like dude, how is a option you will never use affect your fucking life you nob.
Most bosses even have weaknesses. It's a meme perpetuated by people that didn't start games until the PS3 era who actually had nothing difficult to ever play.I’m not very good at games but I’m always surprised at the rep Dark Souls has. It’s genuinely not that hard. You can grind levels, health and attack power and there are always summons.
The game simply does a very good job of making you think it’s way harder than it actually is.
Then we should ban mods, and everything else that could hinder the devs' artistic vision.
Like, I don't know, playing on a sub-par tv. Or playing it without sound. Or with better antialiasing.
Or taking turns with friends.
I really hope From's decides to actually release an easy mode. Just to say "see, it's their artistic vision now".
Jim's right: fuck off with this bullshit. Let people have fun the way they want. Who cares?
If cheating makes the game more fun to some people, thus making the game more popular, what's the problem?
Yep this, trying to force one way or the other is weird, if developers look at the pros vs cons and think the game needs a easy or hard mode it they will add it.If there's a reasonable way to include multiple skill levels, it won't necessarily hurt. I'm not going to blame a developer if it doesn't want to (or simply can't) include an easier mode
Holy sh*t, all this still because one game out of hundreds is too hard for some people.
Get over it and do something more productive with your life.
So you are saying that because gaming can include multiple versions of accessibility, there's nothing lost by having, say, the abridged version of Finnegan's Wake included?I don't think that analogy completely works. Unlike most music, books, paintings and comedy, it's possible to have multiple clear levels of accessibility. To use your examples, it'd be like having a novel where everyone gets the same meaning, but it's simultaneously an easy read and an inscrutable riddle that requires a literature degree to understand.
But it doesn't mean they have to include easy modes either. I think we should leave it up to the developer and if they think easy mode is a compromise they are willing to make, I'm not going to second guess them. But if they'd rather spend their development resources towards making the singular difficulty level as perfect as it can be, I certainly won't complain.A game developer may have an 'ideal' vision for how their game should be played, but that doesn't necessarily mean they have to exclude easy modes in the process.
It can though. An easy Dark Souls doesn't even compute. Like, it's not a thing for a reason. It's inclusion would ultimately undermine the entire experience precisely because the game asks more of you than you think you can give - it's only by playing and succeeding that you realize your level is much higher than you thought it was, and the satisfaction that comes from that is immense. To be able to drop down to easy after losing to a boss twice would allow you to maintain that illusion that you can't do it, to wallow in it.If there's a reasonable way to include multiple skill levels, it won't necessarily hurt.
It's okay to be niche. This means not being every thing to everybody. It's the exact opposite of inclusive. And that's okay. In fact, it might even be better. Sometimes, it's fun to appeal to something other than the lowest common denominator.I'm not going to blame a developer if it doesn't want to (or simply can't) include an easier mode -- I just think it's better to treat gaming as an inclusive tent when you can.
I hate all the various "editions" and varieties of gaming releases these days, but I kind of wish FROM would release the "I don't really want to play Dark Souls edition". A separate product for those who want a product designed just for them.